Why not simply cap PVE DPS?

bmnoble

Wouldn't capping DPS just cause players to build towards survivability, once they reach the caps?

We would end up with lots of sturdy DPS who could survive much better without needing tanks or healers to the same extent, assuming its a damage cap of per player instead of group, could end up with groups of 4 DPS to maximize group damage while not bothering with tanks or healers at all.

Delparis

they can lower LA dmg and increase ressource regen to make this game less LA meta
LA is doing like +20% of total dps in the top parses.

sionIV

This is one of those ideas that has me scratching my head in confusion.

MakeMeUhSamich

bmnoble wrote: »

Wouldn't capping DPS just cause players to build towards survivability, once they reach the caps?

We would end up with lots of sturdy DPS who could survive much better without needing tanks or healers to the same extent, assuming its a damage cap of per player instead of group, could end up with groups of 4 DPS to maximize group damage while not bothering with tanks or healers at all.

We already have 4 DPS groups (or 3 DPS + Tank) since you can’t heal through 1 Shot mechanics.

Nestor

PvP is already done on separate instances than PvE, so they can treat those separately. And Dueling can get moved to a separated instance too for all I care.

Anyway, we don't really need to Cap Damage, we can use Soft Caps on the Stats that feed the damage output. After a certain point, those stats have diminishing returns.

Starlock

I've been for a cap or diminishing returns for quite some time now. Either that, or rethinking the idea of coupling damage with resources. I still remember playing this game for an entire year not understanding that resources impacted damage because that makes no darned sense to begin with. The only thing that should be impacting base damage are WD/SD values, not resource values. But changing that at this point would require such an overhaul I doubt it'll be done (same deal with doing any sort of caps or diminishing returns system again).

Agenericname

Kyoma wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

I'm afraid that you've set the bar really low with "replace such frequent and radical buff/nerf cycles." I find bathing cats more appealing.

Question is: do the cats find it more appealing as well?

Judging by the scars, I'd say "no, mine does not."

I showed my cat the patch notes as well. It did not seem impressed with them either.

J2JMC

Only thing more ridiculous than OP posting this thread is all the people in thread getting upset about it lol. There's already an existing, theoretical PVE DPS cap for all dungeons and trials. No matter how good you are, you cannot exceed said cap. It's just math. All ya'll, "BUT MY LEET SKILLZ" people need to relax. This is just a roundabout way for OP to ask for more nerfs, exactly what OP is supposedly trying to avoid.

Current DPS is a symptom of the radical buff/nerf cycles, not the cause. The cause is ZOS deciding to make beta-testing level decisions in a game that's been out for 5 years. Categorization of skills and the power budget of each category are things that should be figured out before a game is released.

Tsar_Gekkou

If Zos caps dps, they'd have to nerf all vet content. Why would they keep releasing more content that requires higher dps than the previous content if they wanted everyone to do the same dps as the cp500 snipe spammer who queues for vet Moon Hunter Keep and gets bent over on the first add pull?

SoLooney

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

But.... why? Why is someone else's high DPS a problem in PVE? If you are solo, who cares? If you are in a group, don't you want high DPS?

This all comes back to the dead-horse beating party of "I want veteran overland content." You want lower DPS? Then lower your DPS. Nobody is stopping you

One problem is that, currently, how many MagBlades are welcome in Vet Trials? Exactly zero...since there are other classes which out perform them significantly. If a DPS cap were in place (which was attainable by a skilled player on any class) suddenly each class has a consistent seat at the table.

Magblades were dominant in trials for so long, same with stamblades

Every patch, some class is gonna dominate the meta

If you want to role play as a end game player, then join a casual raiding guild

End game pve isnt for everyone nor should it be

kylewwefan

Imagine if they did cap damage. Let’s say they capped it at 30k. Witch some time ago was considered really good dps.

Come on dude. You know how the people are in this game.what about those at 25k? They’re only 5k off, but they’d be locked out.

Perhaps if another system that wouldn’t allow you to do certain content until you hit the mark were also implemented.

That would make good sense, and has also been suggested before.


But they spent a long time researching scaled zones vs leveled. It was Orsinium before one Tamriel. heck way before that in early vet days there was a time 10k DPS was considered pretty good.

All the difficulty in this game is completely artificially created.

Some is laughable. Some is right on point. Some is stupid hard. Some players have it figured out to a point you gotta wonder why they even still play? How is it even fun for them?

It’s a good idea samich, but I’m surprised you didn't get lynched harder for thinking it.

El_Borracho

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

But.... why? Why is someone else's high DPS a problem in PVE? If you are solo, who cares? If you are in a group, don't you want high DPS?

This all comes back to the dead-horse beating party of "I want veteran overland content." You want lower DPS? Then lower your DPS. Nobody is stopping you

One problem is that, currently, how many MagBlades are welcome in Vet Trials? Exactly zero...since there are other classes which out perform them significantly. If a DPS cap were in place (which was attainable by a skilled player on any class) suddenly each class has a consistent seat at the table.

Until late last year, I ran vet trials with a Stam DK. Through the reigns of the almighty stamblade, magsorc, and yes, the magblade. All of the vet trials, too. Nobody in any guild or pug I ran with said a peep. In fact, I have NEVER heard of someone get the boot from a raid because of their class. Maybe find a different group to run with.

This is the same rotating complaint people have every year, only the class changes. Just because your main isn't the current top of the DPS charts doesn't mean we should all have a cap on our DPS because another class now out DD's you. If its that big an issue, roll an alternate. But capping DPS is simply making EVERYTHING cosmetic. Hard pass

ATreeGnome

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Then, pretty much any build would be viable in PVE Endgame and open up more welcomed use of utility/support skills amongst DDs.

It also seems this could reduce such frequent and radical buff/nerf cycles.

Thoughts?

I think that you're overestimating how simple such a system would be.

How does the system determine if a player is over the DPS cap? Does it use the player's average DPS over the course of the fight? Does it use the instantaneous value of the player's DPS? Both methods would have huge and very different impacts on the game and would still favor particular builds, classes, and races.

If DPS is capped and each class can potentially hit that cap, then the best class is whichever can offer the most group utility while still hitting the cap. Why would I bring a stam DK when I can hit the same DPS cap with a magplar but also get extra group healing from Ritual? Why would anyone run an Orc if they can hit the DPS cap on a Nord and have extra defensive stats for with no trade off? Why would anyone run Relequen if they can run Brands of Imperium and still hit the DPS cap?

A cap would just shift the meta to favor whatever race/class/gear combo can bring the most utility while still hitting the DPS cap.

"You want to bring your Orc stamcro with Relequen and Lokkestiiz? Too bad, we only allow DPS in our guild who run Nord magblades with Hallow fang and Lunar Bastion and can still hit the DPS cap."

That the sort of situation it would create.

MakeMeUhSamich

ATreeGnome wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Then, pretty much any build would be viable in PVE Endgame and open up more welcomed use of utility/support skills amongst DDs.

It also seems this could reduce such frequent and radical buff/nerf cycles.

Thoughts?

I think that you're overestimating how simple such a system would be.

How does the system determine if a player is over the DPS cap? Does it use the player's average DPS over the course of the fight? Does it use the instantaneous value of the player's DPS? Both methods would have huge and very different impacts on the game and would still favor particular builds, classes, and races.

If DPS is capped and each class can potentially hit that cap, then the best class is whichever can offer the most group utility while still hitting the cap. Why would I bring a stam DK when I can hit the same DPS cap with a magplar but also get extra group healing from Ritual? Why would anyone run an Orc if they can hit the DPS cap on a Nord and have extra defensive stats for with no trade off? Why would anyone run Relequen if they can run Brands of Imperium and still hit the DPS cap?

A cap would just shift the meta to favor whatever race/class/gear combo can bring the most utility while still hitting the DPS cap.

"You want to bring your Orc stamcro with Relequen and Lokkestiiz? Too bad, we only allow DPS in our guild who run Nord magblades with Hallow fang and Lunar Bastion and can still hit the DPS cap."

That the sort of situation it would create.

Very good points. Thanks!

Jeremy

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Then, pretty much any build would be viable in PVE Endgame and open up more welcomed use of utility/support skills amongst DDs.

It also seems this could reduce such frequent and radical buff/nerf cycles.

Thoughts?

That's basically what they are doing by nerfing damage. They are lowering the ceiling for damage and in effect placing a new cap on it.

I prefer this method because it still enables players to focus entirely on offense if they wish instead of building around some arbitrary cap. The more freedom players are given to build their character as they like the better in my estimation.

I agree that nerfing everyone lowers the ceiling, but it doesn’t solve the 8 StamCros coordinating their ultimates meta.

Are you on console? Because if you referring to that bash spam nonsense that's a problem with balance, not the lack of a DPS cap per say. The solution to that would be to lower the damage of the targeted problem - namely the necromancer's ultimate.

But aside from severe imbalances that do need to be addressed - there is always going to be a "meta", at least to some degree. The game would be boring if everyone did the same exact DPS. People should worry less about DPS meters and more about having fun.

MehrunesFlagon

Delparis wrote: »

they can lower LA dmg and increase ressource regen to make this game less LA meta
LA is doing like +20% of total dps in the top parses.

Anyone else notice that his avatar is a troll?

Elwendryll

With a dps cap it would probably just be useless to slot an execute. You would just have to continue your usual rotation.

MehrunesFlagon

Elwendryll wrote: »

With a dps cap it would probably just be useless to slot an execute. You would just have to continue your usual rotation.

Just like it is now for most spcs.

Sanguinor2

Elwendryll wrote: »

With a dps cap it would probably just be useless to slot an execute. You would just have to continue your usual rotation.

So everyone can Cosplay as mdk dps, nice!

Jimmy_The_Fixer

What a horrifying world this change would create, maximizing group dps would mean getting every member of the raid to damage cap, so you’d just make all 12 of your group members into healer/dps or healer/tank hybrids. Gross.

Destruent

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Lol....hardcap DPS and people will invest into HP/defense instead of offense. This would make trials even easier.
I don't know why always people think about this idea...it's one of the worst ever seen on this forum.

Except insta-kill mechanics are still insta-kill. So IF dps were capped, fights take longer and dps (plus everyone else) has to dance mechanics properly. Can't kill nMOL boss before the running phases, for example.

Ah..there we go again...all those bad high-DPS players who can't play any mechanics at all. You know who skips the most mechanics in TESO? Those 2 guilds who had firstclear in vMoL and vMoL/HM back when it was hard? Do you even think before writing?
You really want to render like 90% of the mechanics useless because others should die at mechanics you get killed from? i mean...really....running (especially in nMoL ) isn't hard at all...and it's even easier with 30k HP, because there are no instarip-mechanics outside...