Why not simply cap PVE DPS?

Somber97866

Hahahah pvp'ers trying to blame nerfs on pve'ers! That RICH! OMG! Is this happening?

Juhasow

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Set a maximum output level per character and/or group.

Not sure what might suffice? 60k? 80k?

Sorry but no. Idea like that have no right to work and would create lot of mess by adding new issues without resolving old ones.

Joy_Division

Because it's a crappy feeling for those people who practice enough and get fulfillment by improving, have a bit of an ego, that no matter how well they play, the game artificially caps their performance.

It's a lazy way of side-stepping a problem which completely disregards why some members of the community play the game and find enjoyment from it. It's so easy to dismiss the part of the community, be them PvP, "elitists', or end-game raiders and basically says "screw them, they're the problem, we don't need them, my gameplay experience would be better if we just disregarded their desires." Well, yeah, sure people feel that way when it's not their preferred way of playing that flushed down the toilet for the sake of everyone else. How would you feel is ZOS completely ditched PvE or questing and just became a PvP game because at least in that realm most of the classes are viable and the whole raid of stamcro problem doesn't exist? I'm guessing you wouldn't be cool with that. Or maybe you would, which would be kind of selfish because that tosses the reason so many people play this game into the trash.

You don't need to exclude part of the community to solve the problem of limited specs being used by raid guilds. All ZOS has to do is take a que from every other RPG/ Fantasy game I have ever played and ensure every class does something unique and desirable and can't be replicated by a piece of gear or some generic buff. But instead what ZOS has done is make DPS the only stat that matters and has homogenized err ... "standardized"... every skill in the game such that the primary difference of the classes is the color of skill animations.

Gundug

I completely disagree with the idea of flat capping DPS output. I could see something like a cap on Weapon and Spell Damage, similar to the existing cap on resistances, or unlinking the resource pools from damage output on all skills, or both. If the immense gap between skilled and well-geared vs. casual players is not reduced somewhat, which I honestly think it never will be, we, for all the conceivable future, will be given content that for moderately skilled and setup players is faceroll easy in normal mode and exceptionally punishing in veteran mode. Not to mention, high powered, high resistance people in PVP crushing average players.

Should the game be watered down? I really don’t know. I believe skillful players who put in the time and effort to perfect their setup should be rewarded. On the other hand, being annihilated in competitive play can be discouraging to players, who may simply stop playing. I know in my experience with other PVP games, mostly first person shooters, all other things being equal, if a few guys were running around with twice to three times the health and weapons that do double to triple the damage wiping groups of players who were all scoring hits on them, there would be a problem.

SHANKS_63

If there was a max dps that a mob could take per player, builds would most likely be tweaked to more support those struggling to hit the max. It is interesting to think about for sure. I know if I could hit max without relequen's I sure would!

MakeMeUhSamich

Gundug wrote: »

I completely disagree with the idea of flat capping DPS output. I could see something like a cap on Weapon and Spell Damage, similar to the existing cap on resistances, or unlinking the resource pools from damage output on all skills, or both. If the immense gap between skilled and well-geared vs. casual players is not reduced somewhat, which I honestly think it never will be, we, for all the conceivable future, will be given content that for moderately skilled and setup players is faceroll easy in normal mode and exceptionally punishing in veteran mode. Not to mention, high powered, high resistance people in PVP crushing average players.

Should the game be watered down? I really don’t know. I believe skillful players who put in the time and effort to perfect their setup should be rewarded. On the other hand, being annihilated in competitive play can be discouraging to players, who may simply stop playing. I know in my experience with other PVP games, mostly first person shooters, all other things being equal, if a few guys were running around with twice to three times the health and weapons that do double to triple the damage wiping groups of players who were all scoring hits on them, there would be a problem.

Ya, I’m not sure my OP really could or should be applicable in PvP. My thoughts were strictly PVE.

MakeMeUhSamich

@Joy_Division thanks for chiming in! I agree with your last paragraph and am hopeful for the same thing. But, after years of tweaks, I’m doubtful it will ever happen.

xeNNNNN

Drako_Ei wrote: »

How would you cap DPS? explain and cap to which value?

Honestly if it were to be done....

75k. Maximum.

because realistically you only need 45k to complete content including hardmodes in raids (without skipping mechanics) but its close. if each player is at 45k with buffs though it would make the raid harder because of specific damage phases.

At the same time however 65k is more than enough for all content reasonable. 75k would before those who like to push numbers.

The real place I would lock it is 100k But they would have to drastically restructure endgame content to compensate for the damage potentials existence which they haven't done so far and I dont count a knee jerk reaction via swing a sledge hammer at classes that did not even need nerfing. (Dragonknights who were already underperforming vs necro and stamsorc).

MattT1988

What is it with a big section of this community? Why are so many seem to want to punish players for being highly skilled? What is with this obsession of lowering the skill cap so much? Are you jealous? Are your feelings hurt because they’re able to excel at end game content and maybe you can’t? Seriously what is it? I don’t get this obsession that we must punish players who get very good at the game and who strive to excel in end game content.

MehrunesFlagon

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Then what incentive would players have to improve?

none.

SirLeeMinion

VaranisArano wrote: »

My experience with this was pre-One Tamriel when my level 17 stam sorc hit the artificial miss chance. I was fighting enemies several levels above me, and doing fine! I could have easily kept fighting harder enemies. Except the game instead started forcing me to miss my attacks, so I couldn't progress according to my player skill unless I stopped to grind.

I'd totally forgotten about that mechanic! Thanks for the stroll down memory lane!

Sinolai

that would make dd builds pointless when you cant get any damage increase no matter how much you try to stack spell/weapon damage.

One thing they could do though was to remove spell/weapon damage from resource pools. That would bring down the damage cap and make hybrid builds more competitive against full mag/full stam.

UntilValhalla13

I didn't spend years getting decent at the game, only for them to neuter dps. If I'm wasting time hitting a capped number of average dps, why bother playing it at all? There wouldn't be a reason for me anyways.

Dusk_Coven

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Then, pretty much any build would be viable in PVE Endgame and open up more welcomed use of utility/support skills amongst DDs.

It also seems this could reduce such frequent and radical buff/nerf cycles.

Thoughts?

I think they already do this with the separation between Normal and Veteran trials and the DPS checks.
Basically a DPS check is sort-of what you are trying to do -- establish a benchmark -- and Veteran content is for the tap-clickers who need to have big number parses, but not necessary for the majority of players to complete.

Yes, a dps race is NOT exactly what you are suggesting, but without more details of how to go about doing what you want, at the moment what you are asking for doesn't sound viable without inventing a methodology (that is unlikely to get any sort of real consensus) and slapping on the probably complex math involved on top of current server load.

b95fister

I’ll do you one better OP how about in any group all dps does 50k and they can press any buttons thy want but the game will make it so they do 50k.

Would that dps make people get in the ice at first boss vSCP?

Would that dps make people to get behind the pillars in vFH?

Would that dps make people avoid the walls in vFL?

Would that dps make people not attack grobull(sp?) in vDS2 and attack the adds instead?

Would that dps make people bash the boss in vFV?

Should I keep going OP?????

mocap

how about making buffs with flat numbers instead of % ?

Currently a weak DD don't give a sh about all that buffs tank or healer can provide. Good DD, on the other side, will take most of advantages from it.

So how about making flat values from buffs ? This can do a REAL BUFF to weak DD and so so to good DD.

nejcn001

What? What would this solve?
Builds would become so optimized to cap DPS that everything else would go into survivability making good DPS'sers semi tanks.

ZOS needs to do small changes...not nerf hammers like in dragonhold.

idk

This sounds a lot like socialism for game playing.

The very top players spend a lot of time honing their dps. Testing out different rotations and gear. However, this idea takes away the desire to exceed and gives it to everyone with a just push buttons and you can do the same great DPS.

The new meta is put all attributes into Health. All enchants health. Plague doctor will be BiS for both stam and magicka dps. That is exactly the meta OP is suggesting.

ccfeeling

Not a good idea .

Especially to the players who spent tons of hours to improve their skills .

Lazarus_Rising

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

But.... why? Why is someone else's high DPS a problem in PVE? If you are solo, who cares? If you are in a group, don't you want high DPS?

This all comes back to the dead-horse beating party of "I want veteran overland content." You want lower DPS? Then lower your DPS. Nobody is stopping you

One problem is that, currently, how many MagBlades are welcome in Vet Trials? Exactly zero...since there are other classes which out perform them significantly. If a DPS cap were in place (which was attainable by a skilled player on any class) suddenly each class has a consistent seat at the table.

When i do vTrials i see basically every class there. If you do certain amount of DPS you are in. That is my experience. I think this was just your experience

Destruent

Lol....hardcap DPS and people will invest into HP/defense instead of offense. This would make trials even easier.
I don't know why always people think about this idea...it's one of the worst ever seen on this forum.

Kyoma

Agenericname wrote: »

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

I'm afraid that you've set the bar really low with "replace such frequent and radical buff/nerf cycles." I find bathing cats more appealing.

Question is: do the cats find it more appealing as well?

Dusk_Coven

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

One problem is that, currently, how many MagBlades are welcome in Vet Trials? Exactly zero...since there are other classes which out perform them significantly. If a DPS cap were in place (which was attainable by a skilled player on any class) suddenly each class has a consistent seat at the table.

At one point this was the type of problem NWO had. Internet guides for their version of trials were putting together formulae of specific class subtypes in specific numbers to make up a team. If you were anything else, no one wanted you. You were playing "the wrong class" because at the moment this-that-and-the-other-thing had synergy.

Your story sounds like you encountered elitists too scared to do anything other than over-dps a trial and hopefully ignore the mechanics. Maybe they are too lazy or too lousy to actually do the mechanics. It is in some ways the reverse of "git gud" -- they focus on the one thing they are good at so they don't have to be good at everything else.

It's a different topic from this thread so I won't go into it too much but it's basically multiple issues, such as bad balancing, devs not tackling unexpected permutations of mechanics, and people just being plain scared of failure.

Destruent wrote: »

Lol....hardcap DPS and people will invest into HP/defense instead of offense. This would make trials even easier.
I don't know why always people think about this idea...it's one of the worst ever seen on this forum.

Except insta-kill mechanics are still insta-kill. So IF dps were capped, fights take longer and dps (plus everyone else) has to dance mechanics properly. Can't kill nMOL boss before the running phases, for example.

This is why SWL Elite dungeons were so incredibly hard: No matter what your dps, if you didn't do even basic mechanics correctly, if the tank didn't tank properly and taunt basically everything, you got one-shot by trash mobs and melted by standing in red. What high dps let you do was not have to survive mechanics too long because the longer you had to do it, the greater the chance of putting one toe in a red zone and getting wiped.
And some people there could legitimately output huge dps in a short burst due to assorted skill/gear combinations -- which attracted the boss instantly and got one-shotted. So there are systems where very high dps isn't desirable either.

GDOFWR420

No caps plz

MakeMeUhSamich

b95fister wrote: »

I’ll do you one better OP how about in any group all dps does 50k and they can press any buttons thy want but the game will make it so they do 50k.

Would that dps make people get in the ice at first boss vSCP?

Would that dps make people to get behind the pillars in vFH?

Would that dps make people avoid the walls in vFL?

Would that dps make people not attack grobull(sp?) in vDS2 and attack the adds instead?

Would that dps make people bash the boss in vFV?

Should I keep going OP?????

I’m not sure what the magic DPS “cap” number might be. But, your examples were exactly my point about content still being challenging and there still being room for coordination and improvement.

Nyladreas

Aurelle1 wrote: »

If ZOS could do that, I would FAR rather that than constant ‘rebalancing’ (aka nerfs).

But can you imagine the outcry from high dps players being capped?

It would be lovely and hilarious at the same time. Cause then the game would technically be fair and forever close the doors for few special people that manage to skip several mechanics thanks to ridiculous DPS.

MakeMeUhSamich

Also, it seems that ZOS does, in fact, have a maximum DPS number in mind...what with a 20-30% across the board damage nerf in U24. Is it 70k? 80k?

I’m not suggesting that everyone should press an “easy” button to instantly reach said cap.

Sanguinor2

Im no fan of capping pve dps, I would really hate to get my dps reduced simply because its capped at a certain value, I spent a lot of time improving in Raids and in front of the target Dummies (or bloodspawn Tests but those are a Long time ago).

What I Always find amusing is the perception of top Players not being able to do mechanics and that somehow is the reason why we skip those. FYI we test those mechanics for you on PTS, we write your guides, record your mechanic vids and only because we know the mechanics very well we know what we can skip.

Nyladreas wrote: »

It would be lovely and hilarious at the same time. Cause then the game would technically be fair and forever close the doors for few special people that manage to skip several mechanics thanks to ridiculous DPS.

But it is fair already. No one is stopping you from becoming good enough to get high dps. You not wanting or not being able to get the necessary dps is not our nor the games fault, the foundations are there you just have to want it and be good enough to achieve it.

Sanguinor2

MakeMeUhSamich wrote: »

Also, it seems that ZOS does, in fact, have a maximum DPS number in mind...what with a 20-30% across the board damage nerf in U24. Is it 70k? 80k?

I’m not suggesting that everyone should press an “easy” button to instantly reach said cap.

I wouldnt be too sure of that. Zos knew very well how high dps could get in Scalebreaker and Elsweyr and they let it happen regardless, they had all the data and they had many People telling them that dots will be too strong and that necro stacking would increase Group dps by a lot but they still let it go live. Their maximum dps number in mind seems to be whatever they Fancy at the Moment.

Tandor

Aurelle1 wrote: »

If ZOS could do that, I would FAR rather that than constant ‘rebalancing’ (aka nerfs).

But can you imagine the outcry from high dps players being capped?

Indeed. Plus it would be exactly the same people complaining then as complain now. Thus it would achieve nothing.

Players need to recognise and accept that MMOs constantly evolve, that is both the key to their longevity and also a major part of their appeal. It is what distinguishes them from single-player games that pretty much never get changed from the moment they are released.

That process will only increase now that players have succeeded in getting things like skill points and race etc change tokens in the Crown Store as ZOS now have a financial incentive to make frequent changes that cause those who obsess about such things to spend more in the Crown Store each time.