Official Discussion Thread for "Developer Deep Dive – Let’s Talk About Class Identity in ESO"

Vahrokh

As hardcore critic of ZOS decisions since years, I actually appreciate this kind of communication.

However, the Devs themselves should know they cannot demand us to sit patient and pay a broken game for as many years as they feel needed to achieve their idea of new balance.

Why couldn't the Devs reset ESO to when the majority of playerbase believes it was good? That is right before Morrowind?

Starting from a sort of "Classic ESO", then the Devs could avoid slowly undoing Wrobel's TERRIBLE, multi-year, permanent damage done to ESO. They would start from a solid platform and adjust the classes from that.

This would have reduced our "walk in the desert" by years, expecially since ZOS - for unfathomable reasons - only limits rebalance to a couple of heavy handed patches a year.

Faulgor

mommadani907 wrote: »

As others have said, for stam sorc one of my favorite skills is Hurricane. I love how it looks, I love how it sounds, I love how it feels.

Funny, I absolutely despise how Hurricane looks. It completely obscures your character, which depending on the environment makes it impossible to see other particle effects. Not to mention it renders the Fashion Scrolls endgame useless because you never see your character in combat.

ZOS_RichLambert

The_Lex wrote: »

Agreed. Interesting that they posted it on the website and not the forums. They won't engage people who will: (1) challenge their views, and (2) know how to play the game better than they do.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. We chose to post this on the website because it gets significantly more views than the forums and our goal here was to try and get this message out to a wide audience. It also allows us to put out the message in more than just English.

KappaKid83

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Agreed. Interesting that they posted it on the website and not the forums. They won't engage people who will: (1) challenge their views, and (2) know how to play the game better than they do.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. We chose to post this on the website because it gets significantly more views than the forums and our goal here was to try and get this message out to a wide audience. It also allows us to put out the message in more than just English.

Is there a reason you didn't post in both areas?

eso_lytw8

I appreciate the communication and can tell you it was much needed. I encourage you to replace the words "play pattern" with "feel and emotion" the class evokes. I suggest you engage people that can help the current dev team understand this because its clear they do not. You go through in great detail explaining what identity and why its important yet we just spent the last 6 months destroying nearly every bit of identity the classes had. I suspect this is because the current team does not understand identity because if they did they NEVER and I repeat NEVER would have done what they did to the game. They have ruined the game for all of us that value identity and the forums clearly show this. You are loosing players and the press is abysmal.

I understand identity is not important to all and so in the end maybe none of this matters, but I suspect the majority of us play a ROLE PLAYING GAME for that aspect. We want skills that make us feel like we are playing a unique and differentiated powerful character. Think about what the class evokes and DO NOT take away those elements. Consider the nightblade, a character that attacks swiftly from the shadows to assassinate and siphon the essence from its opponents. This class should feel mobile. The original designers made it mobile by giving it many forms of expedition. When you go and take this away you are taking away the identity.

Whatever process you are using that comes up with things like lets take away mobility from a class that feels like it should be mobile or takes away offensive buffs from an assassinate skill to replace them with a defensive buff because "you heard us" is not working. The only way to fix this is to change the process. Its not just nightblades this has been done to all the classes and its removed the enjoyment of playing the game. I repeat the only way you are going to fix this is you must change the process that has delivered these results.

Thanks for the communication please take this feedback they way it is intended, frank commentary on how you can fix the problem that currently exists.

Rake

Hope sDK indentity wont be lazy stone throw in the end.

WrathOfInnos

Most of what was said in the article was already known, and the playerbase largely agrees with the sentiment. However, the bigger point here is how Update 24 is failing spectacularly to live up to the stated goals.

Every Magicka DPS build on PTS relies on Mystic Orb, Unstable Wall (mostly because Blockade doesn’t give the correct duration of Crushing Wall), and Elemental Weapon, with maybe 1-2 direct damage class skills (like Curse and Frags). We’ve never seen this little class identity. Sorcerers are dropping Liquid/Flood and Fury/Wrath because they are a DPS loss. Templars no longer use Vamp Bane and even Blazing Spear is questionable. Wardens don’t use Winter’s Revenge anymore and only support roles will slot Swarm for the Minor Vuln. Nightblades don’t use Twisting Path, Swallow Soul, and many are even dropping Cripple on PTS. Some of these were partially true in Scalebreaker, but Dragonhold seems to be moving in the opposite direction from class identity, making everything worse (with a few exceptions like Bound Armaments).

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed a handful of nonconstructive and bashing comments. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to remain constructive and on topic. While we understand not everyone will always agree, we fully expect comments to be free of insults and inappropriate language. Thank you for your understanding.

Dalsinthus

I am deeply worried that the approach here is going to homogenize gameplay across the four original classes and strip away the experience that helped us fall in love with our class. I want my stamblade to play like a stealthy rogue and my mag sorc to feel like a powerful wizard. I don't think there is enough room in the class skill lines to maintain that and give options for mag/stam dps, healing, and tanking.

There has been so much change in the past year to the classes that I am frankly worn out. The article suggests even bigger changes are coming towards the goal of any role with any class aka play as you want.

The way I want to play is to have a consistent experience where my characters have a theme and fun gameplay options that are maintained through time.

Emma_Overload

My favorite part of this piece is the author's correct usage of the terms "viable" and "optimal".

PvE endgame/trial snobs must be so triggered at the suggestion that optimal and viable are NOT the same thing!

Hashtag_

Emma_Overload wrote: »

My favorite part of this piece is the author's correct usage of the terms "viable" and "optimal".

PvE endgame/trial snobs must be so triggered at the suggestion that optimal and viable are NOT the same thing!

It doesn’t matter what they say. People with viable skills and gear won’t get in over people with optimal skills and gear.

Not every player needs to be able to complete everything. But hey get everyone a participation trophy!!!

The_Lex

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Agreed. Interesting that they posted it on the website and not the forums. They won't engage people who will: (1) challenge their views, and (2) know how to play the game better than they do.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. We chose to post this on the website because it gets significantly more views than the forums and our goal here was to try and get this message out to a wide audience. It also allows us to put out the message in more than just English.

Oh I understand that there are other reasons why you would want to post the article on the website--as shallow as that article may be. But the fact remains that the devs do not engage people in a good back-and-forth discussion when you know they disagree or confront you with the math (i.e., the OP nature of DoTs in Scalebreaker is a good example).

I mean, honestly, this is the most engagment we get:

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings, we've removed a handful of nonconstructive and bashing comments. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to remain constructive and on topic. While we understand not everyone will always agree, we fully expect comments to be free of insults and inappropriate language. Thank you for your understanding.

Sanguinor2

Emma_Overload wrote: »

My favorite part of this piece is the author's correct usage of the terms "viable" and "optimal".

PvE endgame/trial snobs must be so triggered at the suggestion that optimal and viable are NOT the same thing!

Eh, we know that those 2 are not the same, thats why we wont take viable specs into optimized Groups.

Eweroun

it's fair and simple.. there will always be one class the best in a certain role, and the other will be better in another role...
does this mean the other classes can't fulfill that role? off course not... Someone/something is always the best..
if it wouldn't be that way...why creating multiple classes...

If I want a templar tank, then I play a templar tank and I use it when I want / can use it... Will I be able to use it for everything I want? probably not... same as IRL.. if I would - let's say "love to wear a black metal T-shirt every day"... Can I do that? off course, but people would probably look in a weird way if I wear that on a wedding...

choices have consequences...

I think it's great the dev team is going to make work of class identity and it won't be an easy job. Fit in all the skill trees and find a balance.. I would say, "we have 10 skills to slot, 2 ultimates and the option of 2 different weapons to equip.. I would find it very balanced and good to have 6 class skills and 6 other skills..."

This would give the opportunity to everyone to show their class identity and still be different from each other by using other skills from mages guild, fighters guild, undaunted,...

And yes, there will be "BiS builds" and "good builds" , "decent builds" and "meh-builds".. Not to forget that stamina bow-bowsmer RP build... That's all fine and great to see... People should just accept that "your build" might not be the best build. But that doesn't mean you can come over to the forum and start QQ about everything that's changing.

I'll give the dev's a chance and will see what they're going to make of their vision.
In the meantime...
let's end with some dots. .... .. .. .. .. . . .. .. ... .. ... .. ... (great rotation )

ZOS_RichLambert

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Is there a reason you didn't post in both areas?

That's what this thread is, and why it has a direct link to the article.

Nepenthe

Faulgor wrote: »

I find it very interesting which image they chose to use to illustrate Power Fantasy for Dragonknights

The Dragonknight brings flame and fury

Truly? When was the last time you saw a stamina DK using Molten Weapons? I agree that it would be a cool power fantasy, indeed it was back when Heavy Attacks were still used for damage, but that was a long, long time ago. Molten Armaments never got overhauled when Light Attacks were buffed and Heavy Attacks nerfed, unlike Sorcerers' Bound Armaments, which used to buff HAs as well.

There seems to be a disconnect between the power fantasy and the actual play patterns here.

It's not really a power fantasy when there's no power in it, right?

Totally agree, here. Just off the top of my head it would be cool to see some kind of DK passive in the Ardent Flame tree that improves Stam DK scaling of Fire damage. Say, "Your Weapon Damage and Physical Penetration apply to Fire damage you deal". THAT would make a nice niche for Stam DKs. Red mountain would get even better, we'd see more Valkyn Skoria and Grothdarr on Stam DKs (Even though Xynode runs Valkyn and Red mountain already on one of his builds, it would be even better).

SipofMaim wrote: »

We need another magicka weapon option, or every class needs more skills, or all the skills need more morphs..

I agree so much with this. It's gotta be difficult, though, with ES games not using magical foci much outside of allowing the untrained to use magical items to cast spells. I don't envy the task of thinking up another magical weapon line. I'm not a lore buff, though, so I could be wrong.

VaranisArano wrote: »

...For example, I might give feedback on my beloved Stam Sorc. Speaking for myself, my Power Fantasy for Stam Sorc is the skill Hurricane. My Stam Sorcs are arcane warriors who summon the power of hurricane force winds to rip their enemies apart alongside their blades. That creates a Play Pattern that is heavily focused on AOE damage, and which relied on dual wield, bow, and Caltrops to make up for the lack of stam skills in my class toolkit.

However, its clear that ZOS thinks one of the Power Fantasies of Sorcerer is "Summoning Pets". So they chose to try to change the Play Pattern of Stam Sorc by giving them a Stamina Clannfear.

From my perspective, a Stam Clannfear doesnt match my Power Fantasy nor my Play Pattern, so it "feels" like a "useless" change to me. (Other players who like pets may obviously feel differently.)

I suspect there's a similar thing going on with StamDKs and Stonefist right now. Many StamDK players think a stamina whip would fit their Power Fantasy and Play Pattern better than Stonefist. ZOS sees Stonefist as drawing from the Earth Power Fantasy of DKs in general and giving a good spammable option for StamDKs. Again, disconnect.

I agree with all of this. Power fantasy is subjective and that makes it a real bear of a problem. Focus on one fantasy, and the people who don't hold that fantasy feel hung out to dry. Have a more broad approach, and you are likely to please no one. I hold something similar to your fantasy for Stam Sorcs. I see them as a whirling dervish spellsword - lots of AoE and engaging multiple targets. Perhaps to differentiate the Bound Armaments proc from Grim Focus, make the bound armaments proc an AoE attack instead? Say, the bound daggers stab all enemies within 6 meters once for each charge (up to 4 charges)?

Faulgor

Nepenthe wrote: »

I agree so much with this. It's gotta be difficult, though, with ES games not using magical foci much outside of allowing the untrained to use magical items to cast spells. I don't envy the task of thinking up another magical weapon line. I'm not a lore buff, though, so I could be wrong.

We've been asking so many times for Alteration, Illusion, Conjuration and Mysticism staffs. We wouldn't even need new weapon models compared to other new weapon types! Especially Alteration, which would be a much better choice for magicka tanking than Frost Staffs currently are.

Speaking of which, just differentiating the three elements more would give magicka builds more options. Currently Inferno Staffs are just too far ahead for most content.

VaranisArano

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Agreed. Interesting that they posted it on the website and not the forums. They won't engage people who will: (1) challenge their views, and (2) know how to play the game better than they do.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. We chose to post this on the website because it gets significantly more views than the forums and our goal here was to try and get this message out to a wide audience. It also allows us to put out the message in more than just English.

@ZOS_RichLambert, thanks for the clarification and insight into how and why ZOS posts the way you do!

Now if I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion to the relevant team who posts these Official Discussion Threads?

Something that might help with views on the forums is to sticky Official Discussion Threads like this for a brief time, when you really want players to see them. Its very easy to miss announcements like this if they get buried under Recent Discussions or if players don't regularly check the Official Announcement forum. It also helps players find it as the main discussion thread once we inevitably spiral into other threads talking about different aspects of it.

As an example of what I like to see, the Official Discussion Thread for ESO's Performance Plan is currently stickied at the top of Recent Discussions. That's extrenely beneficial to me since I can easily find the article and reference it quickly for whatever I need to know or to link others to it.

Now, I realize that threads like this one aren't quite of the same ongoing nature as the Performance Plans one. That's why I'd suggest sticking the thread near the top for a couple days.

This would also be very beneficial during Events so that players who come to the forums during Events can easily find the official information and leave feedback/ask for help as needed.

Thank you for your consideration.

Heatnix90

Emma_Overload wrote: »

My favorite part of this piece is the author's correct usage of the terms "viable" and "optimal".

PvE endgame/trial snobs must be so triggered at the suggestion that optimal and viable are NOT the same thing!

Endgame raiders will still figure out optimal setups to complete content, ergo that statement means nothing.

You're terrible at baiting, stick to getting 1vX'd in IC and complaining about sorcs.

NBrookus

KappaKid83 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Agreed. Interesting that they posted it on the website and not the forums. They won't engage people who will: (1) challenge their views, and (2) know how to play the game better than they do.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. We chose to post this on the website because it gets significantly more views than the forums and our goal here was to try and get this message out to a wide audience. It also allows us to put out the message in more than just English.

Is there a reason you didn't post in both areas?

They did. This is an official thread that shows up in the Dev Tracker.

vestahls

If ESO still has any desire to gain new players and to be competitive against other MMOs, it should probably realise somewhere along the way that homogenising all the classes is the opposite of what they should do.

Literally the first thing most new players ask before they get the game is "ok so which class is best for tank/heal/stealth?" and when you tell them "there is no best class, any class can do x" they'll look at you like you're a dumdum because there's no way that can be. I mean I guess the devs can just copy-paste skill stats between the classes and change just the window dressing, assuming they can go through with actual standardisation at all, but why would you want to?

Aside from making the back-end of the game easier for devs to handle, you're screwing over your own marketability to new players, especially to experienced players who can bring along their guilds/viewers/friends. Most people don't care if they're gimped in one area - no DK is going to mind that they can't fulfill the healer role as well as a Templar, because if you're sensible you understand DK has a specific role, or should. And a Necromancer doesn't need to tank, even though ZOS gave us a skill line which has some really cool features and that's to be appreciated. But no one wants to run a Necro to be a tank, you want to be a creepy mage who uses corpses and summons skeletal minions.
Well, "no one" is a figure of speech, there's people who want hybrids for sure, but these are a minority and far from the average gamer.

Taking away from players the pleasure of rolling their favourite class is shooting yourself in the foot.

aaylas

Devs,

While you are figuring this out, can you expedite making achievements account wide, especially when you have some achievements tuned to stacking 8 necros on DPS?

Integral1900

Why did they have to choose that photo? I remember when I first saw a dragon knight, this huge brute with a flaming sword that sent foes flying through the air, either hole or reduced to ashes. Iron and fire, a slow moving beast but a hard one to stop. But that time is gone, what we have is the weapon skill class with a couple of badly thought out poison abilities tacked on to the end.

If I want to do some serious content with send the necro these days, I don’t like playing it but it gets the job done at least. My dragon knight is now mostly a hybrid role-playing character, I’ve gotten used to nerfs, poorly thought out changes, and just plain indifference. The power fantasy of the Dragon knight was always this great armour plated monster swinging a massive weapon as it ploughed into the thickest of of its foes, iron and fire that’s what I want, not to be the best or the most powerful, just give my stamina dk back to the flames 🔥

React

Eso; Play how you want! Unless you want to play PvP. Then your options are to play in unplayable lag, while enduring NUMEROUS combat related bugs that have been in the game for years and get worse with every patch. Or you can take a trip to battlegrounds, where if you play at a high level or just for a long enough period of time, you'll be punished rewarded with a longer queue time and placement onto teams of solo-queued inexperienced players versus coordinated teams of 3-4. Tired of battlegrounds? Try dueling! Our game is perfectly balanced, so there is no clear victor ever when it comes to one on one combat. However if you're dueling on console, be sure to do it in the privacy of your house because if you try to duel in the major cities where people gather to duel, you'll lag and freeze for the first 30 seconds. That's a feature we added this previous patch!

BigBragg

Issues raised by the community before the skill audit ever started, only became exacerbated by the process. It's great that they put out a nice word salad for us, but it really only says some basic things about the topic. It offers nothing about its future, other than they are aware the community is talking about it and on a surface level agree. How they plan to tackle the issue will be very important. Hopefully they can find some more tools to use beside the extreme swinging pendulum and ban hammer.

JadonSky

idk I get the direction but with the constant changes every patch, especially when their major nurf and playstyle changes. Its ruining the experience for both vet and new players. DOTs are about to be in the worst place they have ever been, some of the changes just make no since to anyone, like entropy why remove major sorcery from all but one morph. I mean this was my primary way of getting major sorcery as a Templar now I have to resort to expensive crafting of pots constantly to get a buff that every other class has and to a skill no one has complained about expect for when you buff DOTs to OP level last patch.

Would be nice to know the expected DPS output you expect any player to achieve to complete content then the expected MAX DPS to maybe help understand why your nurfing things to the ground.

MasterSpatula

On the one hand, I see what you're saying.

On the other, I can play the game and see what you're actually doing for myself.

I get that sometimes you have to completely take something apart to fix it. Whenever I undertake a big cleaning process, there's a point where my home looks worse than before I started.

But there's a difference between cleaning out the garage and wheeling a dumpster up to the door and tossing everything in. My Sorc had good class identity two updates ago. Now, in my opinion, she does not. When making a mess to clean up a mess, one usually avoids taking a baseball bat to the parts of the home that are already in pretty good order.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now if I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion to the relevant team who posts these Official Discussion Threads?

Something that might help with views on the forums is to sticky Official Discussion Threads like this for a brief time, when you really want players to see them. Its very easy to miss announcements like this if they get buried under Recent Discussions or if players don't regularly check the Official Announcement forum. It also helps players find it as the main discussion thread once we inevitably spiral into other threads talking about different aspects of it.

As an example of what I like to see, the Official Discussion Thread for ESO's Performance Plan is currently stickied at the top of Recent Discussions. That's extrenely beneficial to me since I can easily find the article and reference it quickly for whatever I need to know or to link others to it.

Now, I realize that threads like this one aren't quite of the same ongoing nature as the Performance Plans one. That's why I'd suggest sticking the thread near the top for a couple days.

This would also be very beneficial during Events so that players who come to the forums during Events can easily find the official information and leave feedback/ask for help as needed.

Thank you for your consideration.

This is a very reasonable suggestion, Varanis, thank you. We do try to be conscientious about not having too many sticky threads, but I think what you suggested - having important ones for a short while - is doable. (Also, done. )

KappaKid83

Dalsinthus wrote: »

I am deeply worried that the approach here is going to homogenize gameplay across the four original classes and strip away the experience that helped us fall in love with our class. I want my stamblade to play like a stealthy rogue and my mag sorc to feel like a powerful wizard. I don't think there is enough room in the class skill lines to maintain that and give options for mag/stam dps, healing, and tanking.

There has been so much change in the past year to the classes that I am frankly worn out. The article suggests even bigger changes are coming towards the goal of any role with any class aka play as you want.

The way I want to play is to have a consistent experience where my characters have a theme and fun gameplay options that are maintained through time.

This is what we all want, identity like this. Bring us back to the 4 classes you sold the game on and how unique they were, don't baseline everything so every class can do everything the same. A DK is, by design tankier than a Sorc. A Templar, by original class design, is a heavy armor using healer/tank where along the same lines as what a paladin would be in WoW. And a NB is a stealthier character that saps your health and lurks from behind to kill you, a la a Rogue. The muddled lines we have at this point in the game where most stam classes use weapon skills and not class skills and where most mag classes are using more guild and world line skills over their class skills is not where a lot of us want to see the game. I think we all understand balancing but when you balance away from class skills and into other skill lines every class slowly loses their identity and becomes a carbon copy of one another with different passives. Bring us back to when we felt like our classes were unique and not all the same.

VaranisArano

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Now if I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion to the relevant team who posts these Official Discussion Threads?

Something that might help with views on the forums is to sticky Official Discussion Threads like this for a brief time, when you really want players to see them. Its very easy to miss announcements like this if they get buried under Recent Discussions or if players don't regularly check the Official Announcement forum. It also helps players find it as the main discussion thread once we inevitably spiral into other threads talking about different aspects of it.

As an example of what I like to see, the Official Discussion Thread for ESO's Performance Plan is currently stickied at the top of Recent Discussions. That's extrenely beneficial to me since I can easily find the article and reference it quickly for whatever I need to know or to link others to it.

Now, I realize that threads like this one aren't quite of the same ongoing nature as the Performance Plans one. That's why I'd suggest sticking the thread near the top for a couple days.

This would also be very beneficial during Events so that players who come to the forums during Events can easily find the official information and leave feedback/ask for help as needed.

Thank you for your consideration.

This is a very reasonable suggestion, Varanis, thank you. We do try to be conscientious about not having too many sticky threads, but I think what you suggested - having important ones for a short while - is doable. (Also, done. )

Thank you!