I just destroyed my axe and lost 5 Tempering Alloys :(

zaria

therift wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

abigfishy wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Do writs, get surveys, gather around 1k of ore, decon it (learn about resetting crafting stations). You should get 5-10 gold mats from that depending on your luck. Don't forget to put skillpoints in proper skills to up your chances.

I had so much wood to refine that I finally got the awesome addon multicraft and refined 5,000 (FIVE THOUSAND) raw ash CP160 and got a total of 0, (ZERO NONE NIL ZILTCH) gold mats. I have EVERY passive except research as I have all possible traits completed long ago. You have to love RNG.

Wow, that's awful. Did you try resetting the stations? The rule of the thumb is to reset it if you don't get a gold mat in first 3-5 deconstructions. To reset it just walk away from it far enough for it to despawn. In Vivec City for example you can loop to Battlemaster Rivyn and back when you want to reset clothing, blacksmithing or woodworking stations.

Any source for this crafting station reset trick? I have to be honest, it sounds like superstitious woo to me. Also, 3-5 refining seems far too low to be resetting anything when the drop rate seems to be consistently around 0.5%, which requires 20 refinings to even hit.

The superstition has its roots in the fact that a computer is physically incapable of generating a random number. Simulations of a random number must be used, such as drawn in sequence from a table of manually entered random numbers; alternatively, an outside source can be accessed, such as CERN's service. Since using an outside source would require a substantial increase in server traffic as well as additional calculations, the speculation is that all RNG in ESO is simulated, thus predictable or subject to player influence.

The idea of 'resetting the table' is an attempt to influence the simulated random number generator, either by restarting a sequence of numbers selected from a table, if that is the method used, or by resetting a keystone number if other methods based on algorithms is used. Either way, RNG is not at all truly random.

its pretty easy to generate random numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_congruential_generator
Yes it will repeat itself after some million outputs.

However randomness in ESO is also increased in that all users in an instance share the rng generator so even if it was an know sequence you would have an unknown number of other requests for random numbers between your requests.

RexyCat

Katahdin wrote: »

fetito666 wrote: »

I just destroyed my axe and lost 5 Tempering Alloys

How do I obtain new Tempering Alloys? I've seen that they are at guild stores for sale. How do I obtain them again so that I can upgrade my purple weapon into a golden one?

Thank you!

Lock it so you don't do it again

On PC you can Advanced Filter and a plug-in (those are downloaded and add features to AF) that can change view in CraftStations for deconstruction to only show inventory, only bank or both. That plug-in will add one icon that you can toggle status for which view you will have in deconstruction. It will not prevent you from decon legendary items, if you aren't careful but will at least reduce problems where you think item is in your inventory and it is in your bank instead or vv.

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2215-AdvancedFilters-BETA.html

This plug-in here will add a pull down option that you use to filter items to show everything except from bank (no bank).

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2257-AdvancedFilters-NoBank.html

[edit]Found that filter for toggle bank, inventory view in decon windows:

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1104-FCOCraftFilterHidebankhideinventory.html
[/edit]

You can also use FCO ItemSaver to auto lock certain items, but you need to set up rules. I would recommend to use as little auto marking and instead manually mark items that are crafted or items that have been improved in quality (like purple to legendary), There is a small green arrow that you can adjust in view of all container display of inventory spaces, like bank, craft stations etc (those are in reality "container"). From this button you have several options where you can mark or remove mark in what is in view. Combine this with AF (adds button to categorise items and a pull down button for plu-in), plug-in (which adds filter through pull down) and Auto Categroy which make it see items that might not get filtered or when you need to have everything showed and still be able to scroll down. It is also very good to keep New items first, Bound on Pick up items (items you can sell) and Set items sorted from other items.

Auto Category are also independent from AF and plug-ins, so during a major ESO patch where AF or plug-in might need some time to sort out problems, you will still have AC that should still be working until AF and all other plug-in authors catches up.

https://esoui.com/downloads/info1798-AutoCategory-CustomInventoryCategories.html

https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info630-1.3.3.html#info

To understand FCO ItemSaver, when you mark an item for deconstruction (and have set it up from Settings>AddOns in game) to only allow deconstruction and auto remark item if is changed, it will only let you decon marked item. You can not sell it until you change to Guild Store icon (which then only allow it to be sold at GS and not NPC merchant). So you understand it is a complex lock system where you can let it do automatically a lot of "lock" on items with certain conditions. You can remove or add those conditions if you use a button that can be shown on left side of view (might need to be adjusted if you use another scale on UI elements) or from right click and pull up options. You can also use key binds to control what items should have for status.

Use Minion to download all add ons and library dependencies that explained for each add on on ESOUI.com.

https://minion.mmoui.com/

//RexyCat

therift

zaria wrote: »

therift wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

abigfishy wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Do writs, get surveys, gather around 1k of ore, decon it (learn about resetting crafting stations). You should get 5-10 gold mats from that depending on your luck. Don't forget to put skillpoints in proper skills to up your chances.

I had so much wood to refine that I finally got the awesome addon multicraft and refined 5,000 (FIVE THOUSAND) raw ash CP160 and got a total of 0, (ZERO NONE NIL ZILTCH) gold mats. I have EVERY passive except research as I have all possible traits completed long ago. You have to love RNG.

Wow, that's awful. Did you try resetting the stations? The rule of the thumb is to reset it if you don't get a gold mat in first 3-5 deconstructions. To reset it just walk away from it far enough for it to despawn. In Vivec City for example you can loop to Battlemaster Rivyn and back when you want to reset clothing, blacksmithing or woodworking stations.

Any source for this crafting station reset trick? I have to be honest, it sounds like superstitious woo to me. Also, 3-5 refining seems far too low to be resetting anything when the drop rate seems to be consistently around 0.5%, which requires 20 refinings to even hit.

The superstition has its roots in the fact that a computer is physically incapable of generating a random number. Simulations of a random number must be used, such as drawn in sequence from a table of manually entered random numbers; alternatively, an outside source can be accessed, such as CERN's service. Since using an outside source would require a substantial increase in server traffic as well as additional calculations, the speculation is that all RNG in ESO is simulated, thus predictable or subject to player influence.

The idea of 'resetting the table' is an attempt to influence the simulated random number generator, either by restarting a sequence of numbers selected from a table, if that is the method used, or by resetting a keystone number if other methods based on algorithms is used. Either way, RNG is not at all truly random.

its pretty easy to generate random numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_congruential_generator
Yes it will repeat itself after some million outputs.

When I alluded to algorithms to create a simulated random number, your link is one of the methods that could be used. Note the reliance on a 'seed' number. This is the 'keystone' number I described in my earlier posts on algorithmic methodology.

Part of the problem with the perception of unfairness in ESO's RNG is we don't know the method. If an algorithm is used, no matter the source of the 'seed' number, the output is merely the appearance of randomness... which means it is subject to failure, to influence, or both. As I said, the range of output can be so large that the aggregate result may be indistinguishable from truly random output. I believe the article supported both of my points.

The frequency of failure or the ability to influence is a matter for debate, yet we have nothing concrete upon which to debate, other than the outlier results which garner so much attention.

Nevertheless, your link provides excellent insight into the dilemma programmers face when random numbers are required for calculations. Good link.

daemonios

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Is .5% the drop rate though? That would mean one per 200 refinings on average. Maybe you meant 5%.

.5% of the raw materials seems to be pretty much the norm (1 gold mat per 200 raw mats refined). Since you use up 10 raw materials per refining, that translates to a 5% drop rate if you mean in relation to refining.

I guess people just prefer to reference the total amount of raw materials since that number is readily apparent. It's also easier to calculate since it's one half of 1%, so if you have, say 4375 raw materials, you can just discard the two last digits, then divide by two for around 21-22 gold mats.

daemonios

therift wrote: »

Part of the problem with the perception of unfairness in ESO's RNG is we don't know the method. If an algorithm is used, no matter the source of the 'seed' number, the output is merely the appearance of randomness... which means it is subject to failure, to influence, or both. As I said, the range of output can be so large that the aggregate result may be indistinguishable from truly random output. I believe the article supported both of my points.

The frequency of failure or the ability to influence is a matter for debate, yet we have nothing concrete upon which to debate, other than the outlier results which garner so much attention.

Nevertheless, your link provides excellent insight into the dilemma programmers face when random numbers are required for calculations. Good link.

I think the problem with RNG in games goes beyond that. Players typically take a given chance expressed as "one in x" to mean that if they do something x times, they are guaranteed whatever it is they're trying to get. The reality is that in many games the way it seems to work is that every time a check is made, you have the same initial 1 in x chance. If you're looking for an item with a 1% drop rate, every time you check for the drop you have the same 1% chance to get it, regardless of whether it's your first time looting or your hundredth.

This issue becomes more frustrating the lower the chances and the more work you need to put in. Not only that, but the game may actively mess with variables such as loot tables, for instance reducing the odds of a magicka player obtaining light armour or staves. The publisher wants you to keep chasing the carrot, after all.

I would love it if games struck a balance between grind and frustration where it comes to RNG, for instance subtly increasing the chance every time you do the deed until the chance equals 1, essentially guaranteeing you the result in however many attempts are considered adequate. It wouldn't even need to be the inverse of the chance to succeed, so for instance for an item with a 5% drop rate, you might be guaranteed the drop at 50 tries if you didn't get it sooner. This would probably be messy to implement though, since the game would have to keep tabs of every prior attempt until you get a success, at which time the chance could reset back to its normal value.

Carbonised

Normal human beings have a very difficult time grasping the nature of random incidences. All the superstition and hearsay in this thread really confirms this.

Also, some people really need to learn that pseudo-random numbers can be just as functionally random as a truly random number sequence. Just because random numbers are pseudo-random and not truly random, doesn't mean that there's some secret code that can be cracked by jumping through hoops, "resetting" any crafting stations, or crossing your fingers behind your back.

But hey, people will believe whatever nonsense they want to believe.

Androconium

In any situation, I always get more gold metal tempers than wood or cloth.
I put this down to my preference for light clothing and staves. I might be wrong.

The OP has moved past a check measure introduced by ZOS around two years ago that confirms that you want to improve an item with temper quantities that won't provide a 100% chance of improvement. Also, locking an item simply introduces a second confirmation level requiring the player to type CONFIRM before proceeding. Whatever OP did here, they chose to move past the safety checks.

That said, I have improved items with one only temper, a 15% chance.

My observation is that RNG is affected by player population numbers when doing any activities.

Whilst I haven't tried this, I heard that sacrificing a pigeon at the family lararium may increase the odds.
Remember there are no tricks in religion.

therift

Carbonised wrote: »

Normal human beings have a very difficult time grasping the nature of random incidences. All the superstition and hearsay in this thread really confirms this.

Also, some people really need to learn that pseudo-random numbers can be just as functionally random as a truly random number sequence. Just because random numbers are pseudo-random and not truly random, doesn't mean that there's some secret code that can be cracked by jumping through hoops, "resetting" any crafting stations, or crossing your fingers behind your back.

But hey, people will believe whatever nonsense they want to believe.

The incidents of failures with psuedorandom number generators is infrequent, but it depends on the testing methodology, the rigor of the test standards, and the selection of keystone or seed values.

Xorshift, a widely used javascript example, can be made to fail by programming seed values in the wrong order. While this may seem to be an easily identifiable code error, it is not. The error is only uncovered by running batteries of tests.

If seed values are selected upon a player initiated event, such as selecting seed values at the moment of initiating a craft station subroutine, then an astute player can find ways to influence the seed value or set of seed values. Ending and restarting the subroutine is a simple example.

The root of the matter is that any pseudorandom generator is only as good as the algorithm and seed value selection and order, no matter how large the output set may be. Nothing about video game coding suggests they would implement routines as rigorous as those used in cryptography or scientific modelling. Speed and simplicity are more important that accuracy and fairness.

zaria

daemonios wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Part of the problem with the perception of unfairness in ESO's RNG is we don't know the method. If an algorithm is used, no matter the source of the 'seed' number, the output is merely the appearance of randomness... which means it is subject to failure, to influence, or both. As I said, the range of output can be so large that the aggregate result may be indistinguishable from truly random output. I believe the article supported both of my points.

The frequency of failure or the ability to influence is a matter for debate, yet we have nothing concrete upon which to debate, other than the outlier results which garner so much attention.

Nevertheless, your link provides excellent insight into the dilemma programmers face when random numbers are required for calculations. Good link.

I think the problem with RNG in games goes beyond that. Players typically take a given chance expressed as "one in x" to mean that if they do something x times, they are guaranteed whatever it is they're trying to get. The reality is that in many games the way it seems to work is that every time a check is made, you have the same initial 1 in x chance. If you're looking for an item with a 1% drop rate, every time you check for the drop you have the same 1% chance to get it, regardless of whether it's your first time looting or your hundredth.

This issue becomes more frustrating the lower the chances and the more work you need to put in. Not only that, but the game may actively mess with variables such as loot tables, for instance reducing the odds of a magicka player obtaining light armour or staves. The publisher wants you to keep chasing the carrot, after all.

I would love it if games struck a balance between grind and frustration where it comes to RNG, for instance subtly increasing the chance every time you do the deed until the chance equals 1, essentially guaranteeing you the result in however many attempts are considered adequate. It wouldn't even need to be the inverse of the chance to succeed, so for instance for an item with a 5% drop rate, you might be guaranteed the drop at 50 tries if you didn't get it sooner. This would probably be messy to implement though, since the game would have to keep tabs of every prior attempt until you get a success, at which time the chance could reset back to its normal value.

Do not think magic players has less chance of getting staffs but I'm pretty sure some items has an lower drop rate because of loot tables. Remember farming spell power cure restoration staff, so many SPC bows and no jewelry outside of the named necklace in far over 50 runs.
Obviously ZoS knew SPC would be bis for healers so they made both the jewelry and resto staff low chance.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

abigfishy wrote: »

Michae wrote: »

Do writs, get surveys, gather around 1k of ore, decon it (learn about resetting crafting stations). You should get 5-10 gold mats from that depending on your luck. Don't forget to put skillpoints in proper skills to up your chances.

I had so much wood to refine that I finally got the awesome addon multicraft and refined 5,000 (FIVE THOUSAND) raw ash CP160 and got a total of 0, (ZERO NONE NIL ZILTCH) gold mats. I have EVERY passive except research as I have all possible traits completed long ago. You have to love RNG.

Pics or it didnt happen. You should have got around 25 with 5000 mats. 1/200 has been the drop rate since forever. I have refined hundreds of thousands of raw mats in this game, and never come close to RNG that bad.

Also, to the OP, did you try to upgrade only using 5 alloys and it didnt work (always use 8), or did you accidently deconstruct an item you were lucky enough to upgrade with only 5 mats?

If you want gold mats, either farm gold and buy them, or start doing crafting writs. Writs arent a get rich quick scheme, but if you are in it for the long haul, doing writs on half a dozen toons a day will mean you will never worry about a gold mat again. I have thousands of them, all from writs.

Zalathorm

Submit a ticket.

I once got my mats back when I upgraded something erroneously. They made me decon the wrong one first, then gave me some new mats.