New type of lag?

Davadin

On all 3 full-pop factions on Vivec NA, I can login just fine, spawn at the faction base, zone chat was busy, i spot where the fight is on the map.... but as I'm riding closer to a big battle, I would suddenly.....

1. ....see NPC not moving
2. ....map is completely empty
3. ....battle/fights are nowhere to be seen....
4. ...skills not firing off......
5. back to login screen.

Example was couple nights ago NA Vivec got a huge fight at Alessia coz DC scroll was there, so it's a 3-way ***. Everything is normal, I spawn at Sej, started riding.... then when I crossed the bridge, I start to feel something's off.

I see the FD is wide open. Few NPC standing there, Inner door also open... and nobody else? I ran around a bit until I'm kicked out.

This happened at least 5 times (I'm stubborn that way) until I gave up for the night. At one point, there's a guy riding just 10m in front of me, from the bridge toward Alessia (we're both EP), and he suddenly STOP right on the hill outside of the front gate.

So I stopped too, I thought, maybe he spotted something. So I ride closer... closer... and he's just standing still. This is like my 4th attempt so I thought, oh fudge me, he's in the same boat. Then I try to dismount.... but I can't OH hello login screen.

Ugh.

Ahtu

Sounds like you need to dismount and slowly walk towards the action especially if you just logged in so your client can render everything. The server will naturally desync the lowest common denominator and prioritize the front line fighters performance-wise. This will happen even if you have a beastly PC with no add-ons on default video settings.

Minno

We need the following zerg busters:
- siege dmg increased somewhere between live value and OP siege levels.
- buffs to bombblades
- increase prox det/inevt det percentage dmg to 450% at max but still keep the 25% to single target.
- earthgore heal GUTTED>

Then and only then will lag returned to normal via the scalpel-killing of larger groups clustering together.

Davadin

Ahtu wrote: »

Sounds like you need to dismount and slowly walk towards the action especially if you just logged in so your client can render everything. The server will naturally desync the lowest common denominator and prioritize the front line fighters performance-wise. This will happen even if you have a beastly PC with no add-ons on default video settings.

nice. my 3yr old HP laptop with onboard graphic is beastly!

will try next time. thx Ahtu!

Davadin

Minno wrote: »

We need the following zerg busters:
- siege dmg increased somewhere between live value and OP siege levels.
- buffs to bombblades
- increase prox det/inevt det percentage dmg to 450% at max but still keep the 25% to single target.
- earthgore heal GUTTED>

Then and only then will lag returned to normal via the scalpel-killing of larger groups clustering together.

wait. what's with earthgore heal?

The Uninvited

Welcome to PC/EU!

Delsskia

All ZOS has to do is use Battle Spirit to disable ALL proc sets in Cyrodiil and we'll all see a drastic increase in server performance overnight. Of course, then people would also have to learn how to win with skill rather than just overwhelming numbers and poor server performance exploits.

IxSTALKERxI

Minno wrote: »

We need the following zerg busters:
- siege dmg increased somewhere between live value and OP siege levels.
- buffs to bombblades
- increase prox det/inevt det percentage dmg to 450% at max but still keep the 25% to single target.
- earthgore heal GUTTED>

Then and only then will lag returned to normal via the scalpel-killing of larger groups clustering together.

Or you could just nerf the power of aoe healing and the ability to sustain spamming them forever caused by powercreep, instead of making abilities that 1 shot people.

Vapirko

Ahtu wrote: »

Sounds like you need to dismount and slowly walk towards the action especially if you just logged in so your client can render everything. The server will naturally desync the lowest common denominator and prioritize the front line fighters performance-wise. This will happen even if you have a beastly PC with no add-ons on default video settings.

Aka prioritize ball zergs who lag their way to wins.

Alucardo

Thank god. I was getting tired of the old lag anyway

Kaiz

Marcus684

Meet the new lag...



Same as the old lag.

magblade88

Minno wrote: »

We need the following zerg busters:
- siege dmg increased somewhere between live value and OP siege levels.
- buffs to bombblades
- increase prox det/inevt det percentage dmg to 450% at max but still keep the 25% to single target.
- earthgore heal GUTTED>

Then and only then will lag returned to normal via the scalpel-killing of larger groups clustering together.

Bad thing is you buff proxy again and you have proxy ball groups running over everyone... proxy needs a group check mechanism. If more then x players in a group the damage of said zerg busting skill gets reduced. Same thing for the old batswarm and eye of the flame groups.
Thus far any supposed zerg busting skill has always been exploited by the zergs themselves.

Sheuib

Last time this happened to me I stopped playing on vivec and started playing on shor. Haven’t had the problem since.

Minno

magblade88 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

We need the following zerg busters:
- siege dmg increased somewhere between live value and OP siege levels.
- buffs to bombblades
- increase prox det/inevt det percentage dmg to 450% at max but still keep the 25% to single target.
- earthgore heal GUTTED>

Then and only then will lag returned to normal via the scalpel-killing of larger groups clustering together.

Bad thing is you buff proxy again and you have proxy ball groups running over everyone... proxy needs a group check mechanism. If more then x players in a group the damage of said zerg busting skill gets reduced. Same thing for the old batswarm and eye of the flame groups.
Thus far any supposed zerg busting skill has always been exploited by the zergs themselves.

So we all agree then, buff the *** out of siege so people die lol.


Players, stop using earthgore and auto DMG sets moving forward. We want better performance, it starts with us.

technohic

Had friends last night that suddenly ported into a keep dead and showed them as offline in the group yet guild and zone chat still were scrolling for them. Then crash to log in screen.

zyk

Minno wrote: »

Players, stop using earthgore and auto DMG sets moving forward. We want better performance, it starts with us.

Unfortunately, it's the PVE side of the game that feeds players to PVP and the PVE side of the game is the most brain-dead MMO I'm presently aware of. So except for a tiny minority, don't expect this playerbase to do anything other than follow the path of least resistance.

I've been running squishy lately because I was so sick of stalemates. I die a lot more, but at least someone does.

As bad as ZOS is, this community is worse.

While there are still people playing it, I consider AvA to be dead at this point. The PVE players won. It's just another idiotic grind zone. If ZOS actually tried to fix it, they'd whine because they actually like pvdoor.

Marcus684

Minno wrote: »

magblade88 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

We need the following zerg busters:
- siege dmg increased somewhere between live value and OP siege levels.
- buffs to bombblades
- increase prox det/inevt det percentage dmg to 450% at max but still keep the 25% to single target.
- earthgore heal GUTTED>

Then and only then will lag returned to normal via the scalpel-killing of larger groups clustering together.

Bad thing is you buff proxy again and you have proxy ball groups running over everyone... proxy needs a group check mechanism. If more then x players in a group the damage of said zerg busting skill gets reduced. Same thing for the old batswarm and eye of the flame groups.
Thus far any supposed zerg busting skill has always been exploited by the zergs themselves.

So we all agree then, buff the *** out of siege so people die lol.


Players, stop using earthgore and auto DMG sets moving forward. We want better performance, it starts with us.

While proc sets have their own issues, I don't think they're a big contributor to lag, unless you count how earthgore allows bad ball groups to endlessly run laps in keeps. I think the server load-per-player of ball groups is the biggest contributor to lag. Case in point: a few days ago, 30-40 of us DC watched 20 Omni (or Drac or Fantasia, etc doesn't really matter) run laps around the walls of Glade for a half an hour while we battled lag more than their ball trying to kill them. Later, I was part of a 40+vs. 40+ at Chal with basically no lag, and no well-organized ball groups. They had apparently all logged off for the night, and the game performance was noticeably better, even with more players at one location. It's apparent to me that ZOS' coding just can't handle the strain the highly efficient ball groups place on it.

Now the AotP faction stack is a whole 'nother thing, that I think goes without saying.

Mayrael

Marcus684 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

magblade88 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

We need the following zerg busters:
- siege dmg increased somewhere between live value and OP siege levels.
- buffs to bombblades
- increase prox det/inevt det percentage dmg to 450% at max but still keep the 25% to single target.
- earthgore heal GUTTED>

Then and only then will lag returned to normal via the scalpel-killing of larger groups clustering together.

Bad thing is you buff proxy again and you have proxy ball groups running over everyone... proxy needs a group check mechanism. If more then x players in a group the damage of said zerg busting skill gets reduced. Same thing for the old batswarm and eye of the flame groups.
Thus far any supposed zerg busting skill has always been exploited by the zergs themselves.

So we all agree then, buff the *** out of siege so people die lol.


Players, stop using earthgore and auto DMG sets moving forward. We want better performance, it starts with us.

While proc sets have their own issues, I don't think they're a big contributor to lag, unless you count how earthgore allows bad ball groups to endlessly run laps in keeps. I think the server load-per-player of ball groups is the biggest contributor to lag. Case in point: a few days ago, 30-40 of us DC watched 20 Omni (or Drac or Fantasia, etc doesn't really matter) run laps around the walls of Glade for a half an hour while we battled lag more than their ball trying to kill them. Later, I was part of a 40+vs. 40+ at Chal with basically no lag, and no well-organized ball groups. They had apparently all logged off for the night, and the game performance was noticeably better, even with more players at one location. It's apparent to me that ZOS' coding just can't handle the strain the highly efficient ball groups place on it.

Now the AotP faction stack is a whole 'nother thing, that I think goes without saying.

Agree on that. Ball groups cause lags because of exponential growth of calculations, it's not their intention but this is how it is.

...and to the OP. That's nothing new, happened many times to me.

zyk

Marcus684 wrote: »

While proc sets have their own issues, I don't think they're a big contributor to lag,

It was Brian Wheeler who explained how proc sets contribute to lag. He didn't specify how much, but if it was irrelevant, why would he have mentioned it at all?

Performance is so tight they had to remove critters and deer, so it makes sense proc sets would have a significant impact. Unfortunately, ZOS keeps adding more! It really underscores how unimportant AvA is to them.

Minno

Marcus684 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

magblade88 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

We need the following zerg busters:
- siege dmg increased somewhere between live value and OP siege levels.
- buffs to bombblades
- increase prox det/inevt det percentage dmg to 450% at max but still keep the 25% to single target.
- earthgore heal GUTTED>

Then and only then will lag returned to normal via the scalpel-killing of larger groups clustering together.

Bad thing is you buff proxy again and you have proxy ball groups running over everyone... proxy needs a group check mechanism. If more then x players in a group the damage of said zerg busting skill gets reduced. Same thing for the old batswarm and eye of the flame groups.
Thus far any supposed zerg busting skill has always been exploited by the zergs themselves.

So we all agree then, buff the *** out of siege so people die lol.


Players, stop using earthgore and auto DMG sets moving forward. We want better performance, it starts with us.

While proc sets have their own issues, I don't think they're a big contributor to lag, unless you count how earthgore allows bad ball groups to endlessly run laps in keeps. I think the server load-per-player of ball groups is the biggest contributor to lag. Case in point: a few days ago, 30-40 of us DC watched 20 Omni (or Drac or Fantasia, etc doesn't really matter) run laps around the walls of Glade for a half an hour while we battled lag more than their ball trying to kill them. Later, I was part of a 40+vs. 40+ at Chal with basically no lag, and no well-organized ball groups. They had apparently all logged off for the night, and the game performance was noticeably better, even with more players at one location. It's apparent to me that ZOS' coding just can't handle the strain the highly efficient ball groups place on it.

Now the AotP faction stack is a whole 'nother thing, that I think goes without saying.

Remember when abilities got adjusted to tick every 2s because they wanted to reduce the impact on lag? Didn't happen for grothdarr, zaan, earthgore, etc.

#StatSets=PurePvP.

technohic

zyk wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

While proc sets have their own issues, I don't think they're a big contributor to lag,

It was Brian Wheeler who explained how proc sets contribute to lag. He didn't specify how much, but if it was irrelevant, why would he have mentioned it at all?

Performance is so tight they had to remove critters and deer, so it makes sense proc sets would have a significant impact. Unfortunately, ZOS keeps adding more! It really underscores how unimportant AvA is to them.

I think they intend to slow down on the proc sets. That last live stream at whatever event it was; Brian joked about the new sets coming out all being proc sets and Rich did a facepalm and said something about them killing him.


It is interesting about ball groups. I kind of mostly just blamed AOTP but late Saturday night into Sunday early morning, lag died down and there was a huge fight at Winters Peak of all places. There was lag, but it was surprisingly not that bad. Dont recall seeing anyone ball up, but then; Im not sure you could as it was heavily a siege war of attrition. Actually think I saved footage of it so I will have to give it a watch.

frozywozy

Davadin wrote: »

On all 3 full-pop factions on Vivec NA, I can login just fine, spawn at the faction base, zone chat was busy, i spot where the fight is on the map.... but as I'm riding closer to a big battle, I would suddenly.....

1. ....see NPC not moving
2. ....map is completely empty
3. ....battle/fights are nowhere to be seen....
4. ...skills not firing off......
5. back to login screen.

Example was couple nights ago NA Vivec got a huge fight at Alessia coz DC scroll was there, so it's a 3-way ***. Everything is normal, I spawn at Sej, started riding.... then when I crossed the bridge, I start to feel something's off.

I see the FD is wide open. Few NPC standing there, Inner door also open... and nobody else? I ran around a bit until I'm kicked out.

This happened at least 5 times (I'm stubborn that way) until I gave up for the night. At one point, there's a guy riding just 10m in front of me, from the bridge toward Alessia (we're both EP), and he suddenly STOP right on the hill outside of the front gate.

So I stopped too, I thought, maybe he spotted something. So I ride closer... closer... and he's just standing still. This is like my 4th attempt so I thought, oh fudge me, he's in the same boat. Then I try to dismount.... but I can't OH hello login screen.

Ugh.

This bug has been around since release but was largely aggravated at the beginning of Summerset. I explained the bug in full details to a dev a month ago in Discord and was asked how much memory I have and what my CPU is. Just another proof that nobody in the development team Pvp actively on Vivec whatsoever.

This being said, I believe that this issue is caused by elements not being rendered in the right order or proper delays. Ideally I would say that when you approach a very active area with 40+ players stacked close to each other, you want your rendering system to work in the following order :

1) environment (ground, structures, sky)
2) siege weaponry
3) players
4) players passives
5) players frames
6) spells and abilities

As explained on the last 2 Twitch live streams covering the next chapter coming up, Rich Lambert mentioned that they intend on working on 2 different aspects for the next 8-10 months ahead of us :

1) Character
2) Rendering system

If they do it properly, they should make sure that when entering an area with a lot of people, your client tries to render elements in the proper order and with considerable delays to not create timeouts and close the connection between the client and your server without even letting your client know like it is the case right now.

As people pointed out already in this thread, the typical effects of this timeout can manifest themselves as followed :

1) You block once and your character stay stuck in the animation
2) You dismount but keep going at full speed while running
3) Everybody around you stop moving

This is what happens when the server is not sending you data anymore but your client wasn't told you got disconnected. As a result, if you wait until the game actually boot you out to the login screen, there are high chances you will get also kicked out of Cyrodiil and will have to queue again. Very frustrating when you've been waiting for a 1 to 2hours queue (happened to several of us more than once).

The solution to avoid getting kicked out of Cyrodiil is to spot one of the effects described above and to immediately crash your game using the Windows task manager. Usually, it will take you 4 login attempts to get back in game, and you will respawn at your faction's gate. If the battle ends and players disperse, you will be able to log in back where you crashed.

As a temporary solution (because 8 to 10 months seems very long to address an issue that should have been looked at years ago), I propose that ZOS gives every client getting in Cyrodiil a good 10 minutes to relog until you get kicked out of Cyrodiil. It should not even matter if it's a crash or a simple relog to get stuff on another character, craft potions and what not. You shouldn't be instantly kicked out because of a simple relog. Especially when you crash 5 minutes after getting in Cyro after waiting into a 2hours queue to have to queue another 2 hours. That's over ridiculous.

frozywozy

Ahtu wrote: »

Sounds like you need to dismount and slowly walk towards the action especially if you just logged in so your client can render everything. The server will naturally desync the lowest common denominator and prioritize the front line fighters performance-wise. This will happen even if you have a beastly PC with no add-ons on default video settings.

I have tried multiple different scenarios to try to find a solution to this bug and what you described does NOT work. I have already tried sitting next to a render line for a good 10 minutes straight. Just a few feets away, watching people ridding in, stopping and disconnecting 5-8 seconds later and it did not matter. As soon as I walked a few feets ahead, I crashed instantly, repeatedly.

It also does not matter from which angle you get into the fight and what your graphic settings are. I also know people who suggested to change different settings in the UserSettings.txt file and it did not change much for most people.

I also tried to set different values of View Distance and it did not change much. This bug seems to affect the same clients over a certain period of time (can be days or weeks straight) and then will aim different ones.

I am actually going through a cycle of a few weeks without getting this bug while I see others riding close by getting it. I haven't been able to figure out a pattern or a way to counter it in 6-8months.

Like I mentioned in my last post, I believe that giving players a good 10 minutes to relog would help greatly. In the meantime, players should grow up, understand what's happening and stop stacking 2-3 raids together from the same guild.

I would also discourage anybody to participate into large 3 way fights.

technohic

frozywozy wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

On all 3 full-pop factions on Vivec NA, I can login just fine, spawn at the faction base, zone chat was busy, i spot where the fight is on the map.... but as I'm riding closer to a big battle, I would suddenly.....

1. ....see NPC not moving
2. ....map is completely empty
3. ....battle/fights are nowhere to be seen....
4. ...skills not firing off......
5. back to login screen.

Example was couple nights ago NA Vivec got a huge fight at Alessia coz DC scroll was there, so it's a 3-way ***. Everything is normal, I spawn at Sej, started riding.... then when I crossed the bridge, I start to feel something's off.

I see the FD is wide open. Few NPC standing there, Inner door also open... and nobody else? I ran around a bit until I'm kicked out.

This happened at least 5 times (I'm stubborn that way) until I gave up for the night. At one point, there's a guy riding just 10m in front of me, from the bridge toward Alessia (we're both EP), and he suddenly STOP right on the hill outside of the front gate.

So I stopped too, I thought, maybe he spotted something. So I ride closer... closer... and he's just standing still. This is like my 4th attempt so I thought, oh fudge me, he's in the same boat. Then I try to dismount.... but I can't OH hello login screen.

Ugh.

This bug has been around since release but was largely aggravated at the beginning of Summerset. I explained the bug in full details to a dev a month ago in Discord and was asked how much memory I have and what my CPU is. Just another proof that nobody in the development team Pvp actively on Vivec whatsoever.

This being said, I believe that this issue is caused by elements not being rendered in the right order or proper delays. Ideally I would say that when you approach a very active area with 40+ players stacked close to each other, you want your rendering system to work in the following order :

1) environment (ground, structures, sky)
2) siege weaponry
3) players
4) players passives
5) players frames
6) spells and abilities

As explained on the last 2 Twitch live streams covering the next chapter coming up, Rich Lambert mentioned that they intend on working on 2 different aspects for the next 8-10 months ahead of us :

1) Character
2) Rendering system

If they do it properly, they should make sure that when entering an area with a lot of people, your client tries to render elements in the proper order and with considerable delays to not create timeouts and close the connection between the client and your server without even letting your client know like it is the case right now.

As people pointed out already in this thread, the typical effects of this timeout can manifest themselves as followed :

1) You block once and your character stay stuck in the animation
2) You dismount but keep going at full speed while running
3) Everybody around you stop moving

This is what happens when the server is not sending you data anymore but your client wasn't told you got disconnected. As a result, if you wait until the game actually boot you out to the login screen, there are high chances you will get also kicked out of Cyrodiil and will have to queue again. Very frustrating when you've been waiting for a 1 to 2hours queue (happened to several of us more than once).

The solution to avoid getting kicked out of Cyrodiil is to spot one of the effects described above and to immediately crash your game using the Windows task manager. Usually, it will take you 4 login attempts to get back in game, and you will respawn at your faction's gate. If the battle ends and players disperse, you will be able to log in back where you crashed.

As a temporary solution (because 8 to 10 months seems very long to address an issue that should have been looked at years ago), I propose that ZOS gives every client getting in Cyrodiil a good 10 minutes to relog until you get kicked out of Cyrodiil. It should not even matter if it's a crash or a simple relog to get stuff on another character, craft potions and what not. You shouldn't be instantly kicked out because of a simple relog. Especially when you crash 5 minutes after getting in Cyro after waiting into a 2hours queue to have to queue another 2 hours. That's over ridiculous.

Keeping you from getting booted out of Cyrodiil might be a bad idea. I often cannot relog into the character until it gets kicked. Can log in with a different character

frozywozy

technohic wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

On all 3 full-pop factions on Vivec NA, I can login just fine, spawn at the faction base, zone chat was busy, i spot where the fight is on the map.... but as I'm riding closer to a big battle, I would suddenly.....

1. ....see NPC not moving
2. ....map is completely empty
3. ....battle/fights are nowhere to be seen....
4. ...skills not firing off......
5. back to login screen.

Example was couple nights ago NA Vivec got a huge fight at Alessia coz DC scroll was there, so it's a 3-way ***. Everything is normal, I spawn at Sej, started riding.... then when I crossed the bridge, I start to feel something's off.

I see the FD is wide open. Few NPC standing there, Inner door also open... and nobody else? I ran around a bit until I'm kicked out.

This happened at least 5 times (I'm stubborn that way) until I gave up for the night. At one point, there's a guy riding just 10m in front of me, from the bridge toward Alessia (we're both EP), and he suddenly STOP right on the hill outside of the front gate.

So I stopped too, I thought, maybe he spotted something. So I ride closer... closer... and he's just standing still. This is like my 4th attempt so I thought, oh fudge me, he's in the same boat. Then I try to dismount.... but I can't OH hello login screen.

Ugh.

This bug has been around since release but was largely aggravated at the beginning of Summerset. I explained the bug in full details to a dev a month ago in Discord and was asked how much memory I have and what my CPU is. Just another proof that nobody in the development team Pvp actively on Vivec whatsoever.

This being said, I believe that this issue is caused by elements not being rendered in the right order or proper delays. Ideally I would say that when you approach a very active area with 40+ players stacked close to each other, you want your rendering system to work in the following order :

1) environment (ground, structures, sky)
2) siege weaponry
3) players
4) players passives
5) players frames
6) spells and abilities

As explained on the last 2 Twitch live streams covering the next chapter coming up, Rich Lambert mentioned that they intend on working on 2 different aspects for the next 8-10 months ahead of us :

1) Character
2) Rendering system

If they do it properly, they should make sure that when entering an area with a lot of people, your client tries to render elements in the proper order and with considerable delays to not create timeouts and close the connection between the client and your server without even letting your client know like it is the case right now.

As people pointed out already in this thread, the typical effects of this timeout can manifest themselves as followed :

1) You block once and your character stay stuck in the animation
2) You dismount but keep going at full speed while running
3) Everybody around you stop moving

This is what happens when the server is not sending you data anymore but your client wasn't told you got disconnected. As a result, if you wait until the game actually boot you out to the login screen, there are high chances you will get also kicked out of Cyrodiil and will have to queue again. Very frustrating when you've been waiting for a 1 to 2hours queue (happened to several of us more than once).

The solution to avoid getting kicked out of Cyrodiil is to spot one of the effects described above and to immediately crash your game using the Windows task manager. Usually, it will take you 4 login attempts to get back in game, and you will respawn at your faction's gate. If the battle ends and players disperse, you will be able to log in back where you crashed.

As a temporary solution (because 8 to 10 months seems very long to address an issue that should have been looked at years ago), I propose that ZOS gives every client getting in Cyrodiil a good 10 minutes to relog until you get kicked out of Cyrodiil. It should not even matter if it's a crash or a simple relog to get stuff on another character, craft potions and what not. You shouldn't be instantly kicked out because of a simple relog. Especially when you crash 5 minutes after getting in Cyro after waiting into a 2hours queue to have to queue another 2 hours. That's over ridiculous.

Keeping you from getting booted out of Cyrodiil might be a bad idea. I often cannot relog into the character until it gets kicked. Can log in with a different character

Logging into a different character instantly kick you out of Cyrodiil.

zyk

Ahtu wrote: »

Sounds like you need to dismount and slowly walk towards the action especially if you just logged in so your client can render everything. The server will naturally desync the lowest common denominator and prioritize the front line fighters performance-wise. This will happen even if you have a beastly PC with no add-ons on default video settings.