Would ESO AvA be better without large ball groups?

zyk

Do you think ESO AvA PVP would be better without large ball groups? I'm referring specifically to ball groups.

VaranisArano

Considering that AvAvA Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 (says so right in the groupfinder and which was originally groups of 8 to 24 players), I'd say that large organized raids are exactly who Cyrodiil is intended for.

Of course, Cyrodiil is also intended for large groups and small groups, organized and unorganized, solo players, zergs, zerg surfers, 1vXers, gankers, and all the other playstyles. With the sheer variety of paystyles it supports, maybe its a wonder Cyrodiil works as we'll as it does!

If its performance issues that make someone advocate removing a playstyle, I say you'd do better to ask ZOS to fix the game's performance issues so we can ALL play as intended.

If its that you don't like that playstyle...well, we've all got playstyles we don't like and other people do. I dont understand why people think its okay to ask for playstyles to be removed when people enjoy them and are playing as intended.

zyk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Considering that AvAvA Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 (says so right in the groupfinder and which was originally groups of 8 to 24 players), I'd say that large organized raids are exactly who Cyrodiil is intended for.

Large, organized groups are not necessarily ball groups. My poll is about ball groups specifically.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If its performance issues that make someone advocate removing a playstyle, I say you'd do better to ask ZOS to fix the game's performance issues so we can ALL play as intended.

If its that you don't like that playstyle...well, we've all got playstyles we don't like and other people do. I dont understand why people think its okay to ask for playstyles to be removed when people enjoy them and are playing as intended.

I don't have a problem with large groups at all. I love big fights.

However, I think a well-executed ball group is bad for the game in multiple ways. There's the obvious performance impacts, but too often the playstyle isn't ball group vs ball group, it's ball group vs everyone else, and I think everyone else tends to have a bad experience in those fights. I used to enjoy those fights, but no longer because of how the game has evolved.

Anyway, I thought I'd see what everyone else thought.

ChunkyCat

That’s why they came out with Battlegrounds >.>

VaranisArano

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Considering that AvAvA Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 (says so right in the groupfinder and which was originally groups of 8 to 24 players), I'd say that large organized raids are exactly who Cyrodiil is intended for.

Large, organized groups are not necessarily ball groups. My poll is about ball groups specifically.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If its performance issues that make someone advocate removing a playstyle, I say you'd do better to ask ZOS to fix the game's performance issues so we can ALL play as intended.

If its that you don't like that playstyle...well, we've all got playstyles we don't like and other people do. I dont understand why people think its okay to ask for playstyles to be removed when people enjoy them and are playing as intended.

I don't have a problem with large groups at all. I love big fights.

However, I think a well-executed ball group is bad for the game in multiple ways. There's the obvious performance impacts, but too often the playstyle isn't ball group vs ball group, it's ball group vs everyone else, and I think everyone else tends to have a bad experience in those fights. I used to enjoy those fights, but no longer because of how the game has evolved.

Anyway, I thought I'd see what everyone else thought.

Then I'm going to suggest you define "ball group".

Because I'm going define the term "large organized raid" as a group of 12 to 24 players running specialized group builds, usually in voice comms, following the calls of their leader, and often running tightly together and executing tactics as a group.

I suspect that my definition is inclusive of your "ball groups".

If so, then I will say again that the large organized raids are playing exactly as intended in Cyrodiil - whether that's raid v raid or raid v PUGs - and indeed exactly as incentivized by Cyrodiil's objectives.

Personally, I enjoy the raid v raid playstyle where my raid fights for objectives and the campaign win. That doesn't make other raid playstyles less valid in my eyes, any more than my dislike of being ganked off my horse or being bombed while repairing a keep door makes gankers or bombers a less valid playstyle that's presumably enjoyable for the people who play gankers and bombers. I don't advocate for those playstyles to be removed - I would advocate for performance issues (or bugs like Snipe desync) to be fixed so everyone can enjoy better gameplay in Cyrodiil.

LeifErickson

Would the world be better without suffering?

zyk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Then I'm going to suggest you define "ball group".

Because I'm going define the term "large organized raid" as a group of 12 to 24 players running specialized group builds, usually in voice comms, following the calls of their leader, and often running tightly together and executing tactics as a group.

I suspect that my definition is inclusive of your "ball groups".

If so, then I will say again that the large organized raids are playing exactly as intended in Cyrodiil - whether that's raid v raid or raid v PUGs - and indeed exactly as incentivized by Cyrodiil's objectives.

I'm not going to argue semantics which is exactly what will happen if I define a ball group. I'm sure most players have a good idea of a ball group when they hear the term, so I'll just let them answer according to that definition.

Large group play was intended, but ball groups were not necessarily intended. The ZOS vision of epic fights can be seen in the completely unrealistic promo videos. I'm pretty sure the infamous pain train is not what they had in mind.

But whether intended or not, if the playstyle is ultimately a detriment to the health of the game -- in terms of performance and popularity -- then that should be recognized and addressed. The intention of this poll is to get an idea about what forum regulars think.

frozywozy

I agree that ballgroups should not be encouraged. Anytime a specific group becomes too organized and their knowledge of the game mechanics get out of hand, that group should immediately reconsider their playstyle and maybe go back to 4men squads or large faction zerg fests. As a result, the game would be much better for everybody else.

Keep it casual friendly amiright?

usmcjdking

ESO PVP would be a pile of trash without ball groups. Ball groups, despite all the railing I give them, are incredibly important to the ESO ecosystem. Without ball groups, zergs would just run down lanes and smash anything they could, small groups would run the map nearly uncontested and solo players would be nothing but glorified pugs.

zyk

usmcjdking wrote: »

ESO PVP would be a pile of trash without ball groups. Ball groups, despite all the railing I give them, are incredibly important to the ESO ecosystem. Without ball groups, zergs would just run down lanes and smash anything they could, small groups would run the map nearly uncontested and solo players would be nothing but glorified pugs.

I believe the opposite is true. Good ball groups draw dozens of randoms to them and if opponents stop showing up to fight, they push higher priority targets until they cannot be ignored.

Drac is essentially the anti-AOTP because they can draw so many players to them. They're complete opposites, but the impact can be the same.

It is very rare for dozens of players bouncing between objectives to create crippling lag. They are normally spread out and primarily using single target abilities. The faction stacks that create lag are the ones that follow organized groups -- especially AOTP.

So I don't believe it's at all clear that ball groups save us from anything. I think they mainly save us from opposition ball groups. It's not as if large ball groups are the only way to play organized PVP.

This isn't a matter of playstyle elitism. I have a lot of respect for many groups that play that style. I've enjoyed playing it in the past. I certainly appreciate the effort of AD's amazing organized groups. I'm not against large group play. I don't want to see large raid guilds fall apart. I just think there has to be a better way to have organized large scale fights.

ErMurazor

Yeah let the pugs roam around freely. Any organised group should be banned. Why play the AvA as it was intended

ErMurazor

On a serious note, this must be the most skilled attempt of a topic from a butthurt player to hide he is butthurt. L2p

Soris

I dont think running in a ball group and mindlessly spamming one or two skill is the intended AvA gameplay.

Pug zergs and solo zerg surfing is more likely to come close what is intended.

Soul_Demon

zyk wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

ESO PVP would be a pile of trash without ball groups. Ball groups, despite all the railing I give them, are incredibly important to the ESO ecosystem. Without ball groups, zergs would just run down lanes and smash anything they could, small groups would run the map nearly uncontested and solo players would be nothing but glorified pugs.

I believe the opposite is true. Good ball groups draw dozens of randoms to them and if opponents stop showing up to fight, they push higher priority targets until they cannot be ignored.

Drac is essentially the anti-AOTP because they can draw so many players to them. They're complete opposites, but the impact can be the same.

It is very rare for dozens of players bouncing between objectives to create crippling lag. They are normally spread out and primarily using single target abilities. The faction stacks that create lag are the ones that follow organized groups -- especially AOTP.

So I don't believe it's at all clear that ball groups save us from anything. I think they mainly save us from opposition ball groups. It's not as if large ball groups are the only way to play organized PVP.

This isn't a matter of playstyle elitism. I have a lot of respect for many groups that play that style. I've enjoyed playing it in the past. I certainly appreciate the effort of AD's amazing organized groups. I'm not against large group play. I don't want to see large raid guilds fall apart. I just think there has to be a better way to have organized large scale fights.

I disagree with you on a couple of points. It has been posed before why not create a server where the max grouping capability would be 4, all AP was given ONLY for killing blows and nothing else and there was no emp mechanic. Leader boards would be adjusted to allow for "gank, solo, and 1vx play only' The only problem is when people began to debate it they realized a few things......those play styles do not push map but tend to follow the action to ply their trades. Without that action being pushed they would all stand around waiting for the 'others' to move and end up being stagnant. Interest dropped and eventually those players realized they really vulture off the groups who WERE pushing the keeps and outposts for campaign score. The activity corridors were dead until those groups started pushing the map. One could argue that isn't the case, but I suspect that indeed if they had created a server with those rules there would be absolutely NO ONE playing it. Ever. Don't agree? Maybe start a petition to create such a server to showcase the skills those players bring to the game with a specific place for them to showcase that skill.....(I know that is precisely why we have battlegrounds, but we don't have cyro with that set up for them)

VaranisArano

Soris wrote: »

I dont think running in a ball group and mindlessly spamming one or two skill is the intended AvA gameplay.

Pug zergs and solo zerg surfing is more likely to come close what is intended.

I dont think a large organized raid where people run and mindlessly spam one or two skills is going to be a successful raid for long.

People assume that because a raid makes teamwork look easy that its brainless. In a good organized raid, that easy teamwork is the result of hours of practice as a team. It becomes second nature, night after night, but its never mindless.

Mindless play generally doesnt win fights on the scale that large organized raids do.

VaranisArano

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Then I'm going to suggest you define "ball group".

Because I'm going define the term "large organized raid" as a group of 12 to 24 players running specialized group builds, usually in voice comms, following the calls of their leader, and often running tightly together and executing tactics as a group.

I suspect that my definition is inclusive of your "ball groups".

If so, then I will say again that the large organized raids are playing exactly as intended in Cyrodiil - whether that's raid v raid or raid v PUGs - and indeed exactly as incentivized by Cyrodiil's objectives.

I'm not going to argue semantics which is exactly what will happen if I define a ball group. I'm sure most players have a good idea of a ball group when they hear the term, so I'll just let them answer according to that definition.

Large group play was intended, but ball groups were not necessarily intended. The ZOS vision of epic fights can be seen in the completely unrealistic promo videos. I'm pretty sure the infamous pain train is not what they had in mind.

But whether intended or not, if the playstyle is ultimately a detriment to the health of the game -- in terms of performance and popularity -- then that should be recognized and addressed. The intention of this poll is to get an idea about what forum regulars think.

Not trying to argue semantics. Just pointing out that I suspect we're talking about the same thing, rather than me talking about some other type of "large organized raid that isn't a ball group" of which you approve.

You think that ball groups are bad for ESO PVP. I think that they, inclusive of all types of large organized raid gameplay, are intended ways of playing ESO PVP. If the performance suffers, that's on ZOS to fix so that we can ALL play as intended. Certainly, the objective based nature of Cyrodiil favors large groups that are organized to fight as a team together, and in practice, the tighter and more coordinated the team, the better.

zyk

I don't think it's a fact ball group gameplay was intended.

I spent a couple of years playing in ball groups. I'm truly honored to have had the experience of being lead by so many excellent AD leads during that time. There's a lot I loved about it -- organized gameplay, working as part of a team, contributing to the faction, learning roles and executing, etc.. I encourage every PVP enthusiast to experience organized gameplay. It's amazing and will help develop skills that you may find useful for the rest of your life.

But out of everything, the actual mechanics of the combat was the least fun. It felt more like a dance troupe than an army. I mean, learning to do it well was fun. The feeling of executing well was fun. Intense fights could be amazing. But the bare pain train gameplay was not inherently fun. It's something I really had to learn to enjoy.

I've known others over the years who have felt the same.

This isn't an indictment of large scale at all. It's a question about one aspect of large scale gameplay. Large group gameplay doesn't need to be 24 players crashing into each other.

My belief is that ZOS envisioned players in groups to be more autonomous and battlefields to be more spread out -- like when you have randoms + small groups vs randoms + small groups. I enjoy that a lot more than pain trains. You could sell that gameplay in an advertisement, but not that of pain trains.

vamp_emily

large scale pvp is fun. I don't mind ball groups but it would be nice to have some more skills/weapons that would help fight against them.

Kadoin

Without ball groups, any smaller group with a super healer behind them will crush everyone. The presence of one healer can even stop an entire faction from taking a keep, even if the opposing faction had far greater #s. Imagine how that same healer would do if they had to fight smaller groups... there would be absolutely no contest, and it might be impossible to kill anyone with them.

Cyrodiil would simply then look like BGs: have a healer? If not, and your enemy does, you lose.

Minyassa

The ball groups are the recommended mode of quick relatively painless leveling for PvE players who hate PvP and want to just get it over with quickly. Until the meta changes and Alliance skills are not necessary to minmax PvE players, the ball groups are a necessary evil just to get those players who don't want to PvP through the bare minimum as quickly and easily as possible. It's better than having them quit the game out of sheer frustration.

zyk

Kadoin wrote: »

Without ball groups, any smaller group with a super healer behind them will crush everyone. The presence of one healer can even stop an entire faction from taking a keep, even if the opposing faction had far greater #s. Imagine how that same healer would do if they had to fight smaller groups... there would be absolutely no contest, and it might be impossible to kill anyone with them.

Cyrodiil would simply then look like BGs: have a healer? If not, and your enemy does, you lose.

Uhm, are you saying AvA needs large ball groups to zerg down small groups with healers? Errrr.... Have you happened to have met Crow? He zergs down large ball groups with 3+ raids. I don't see how we're better off with this ecosystem.

Minyassa wrote: »

The ball groups are the recommended mode of quick relatively painless leveling for PvE players who hate PvP and want to just get it over with quickly. Until the meta changes and Alliance skills are not necessary to minmax PvE players, the ball groups are a necessary evil just to get those players who don't want to PvP through the bare minimum as quickly and easily as possible. It's better than having them quit the game out of sheer frustration.

These would not necessarily be the groups I am referring to. Though there are very good PVE players who are also very good PVP players, usually PVE raids in Cyro are not highly optimized, have a lot of single target damage and don't function the same way a Cyrodiil ball group does.

Probably the two most famous ball groups atm are Zerg Squad and Dracarys.

ToRelax

Kadoin wrote: »

Without ball groups, any smaller group with a super healer behind them will crush everyone. The presence of one healer can even stop an entire faction from taking a keep, even if the opposing faction had far greater #s. Imagine how that same healer would do if they had to fight smaller groups... there would be absolutely no contest, and it might be impossible to kill anyone with them.

Cyrodiil would simply then look like BGs: have a healer? If not, and your enemy does, you lose.

If raid combat were a more fun experience, for all sides, than the current "ball groups", I would expect a lot of the better small scale players to actually play in raids (again). And there is no way any small group would stand a chance against 4 times their number if skill is even close to equal.

vesselwiththepestle

I think a majority of players isn't able to deal with ball groups, because they just don't know how to handle them.

This is especially a problem with PUGs, where players tend to play much more self-sufficient and thus often lacking in skills to actually fight ball groups, additionally there are many casuals among them, probably only in Cyrodiil because they want to get their Caltrops...

I think if half of the youtubers who reguarly present their newest unkillable awesome PVP build would explain some basic tactics in PVP, like fighting a ball group (or at least not getting farmed by a ball group), ball groups in general would be less of a cancer in Cyrodiil.

Iskiab

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

I think a majority of players isn't able to deal with ball groups, because they just don't know how to handle them.

This is especially a problem with PUGs, where players tend to play much more self-sufficient and thus often lacking in skills to actually fight ball groups, additionally there are many casuals among them, probably only in Cyrodiil because they want to get their Caltrops...

I think if half of the youtubers who reguarly present their newest unkillable awesome PVP build would explain some basic tactics in PVP, like fighting a ball group (or at least not getting farmed by a ball group), ball groups in general would be less of a cancer in Cyrodiil.

BS! The reason Ball Groups have existed for so long is as soon as a counter is made to them they cry on the forums and it gets quickly nerfed. Time stop, inevitable detonation, etc... Anything that effects clustered groups from range is cried about until it's gone or ineffective. The only reason why proximity detonation is still around is because ball groups use them.

Ball Groups suck, big time. They're a one trick pony - first to negate wins. What's fun about large scale pvp are things like keep fights where you have all three factions fighting at once, and multiple guilds of each faction. What ruins is is when it becomes about who negates first and coordinating dawnbreakers for burst. It's the prolonged engagements that are fun.

What the devs should do is start ignoring the people who are trying to steer the game mechanics to their advantage.

Iskiab

Kadoin wrote: »

Cyrodiil would simply then look like BGs: have a healer? If not, and your enemy does, you lose.

Welcome to MMOs. Someone should do a write up about the trinity and have it stickied in the new player forums.

Brrrofski

Well it's kinda the point. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

We just need a middle ground. I know there's battleground, but I mean open world PvP with a medium sized focus.

The changes to IC could be PERFECT for this if ZOS sit down and try to make it a medium PvP experience. Limit faction members per district or group size or something.

Iskiab

Yea, IC is an amazing idea and I love the implementation except for a couple things. Barring factions from entering depending on the zone map was a bad idea, it being a campaign should help with that. I found when I did go it was a ghost town.

Even then, if IC gets implemented well and people play it instead of cyrodiil, it won't change the way cyrodiil has turned into ball vs ball groups.

ErMurazor

Soris wrote: »

I dont think running in a ball group and mindlessly spamming one or two skill is the intended AvA gameplay.

Pug zergs and solo zerg surfing is more likely to come close what is intended.

You obviously never played in a ballgroup. Using 1-2 skills......what comes this mindset from? Why should i only use 1-2 abilties. Yes each build has a spammable but that is true to every build in pve and PvP. solo, small, medium or large Groups. Only fools would use 1-2 skills when u have 10+2 ultimates. Atleast if You aim to play at the highest lvl. Pugs and newbies running around spamming Bow light attacks are totally different matter.

technohic

They serve a purpose but there should be difficulties overcome by effort, skill, and coordination. The top end of these groups take on larger numbers currently while the low end of these groups can and will use it as an effective way to run over smaller numbers. A little more difficulty should make it more of an investment in a team to start these.

Defilted

The only thing that needs changed in Cyro is performance(to the good). There is no reason to change the AvAvA play style becasue some people don't like it. I agree with @VaranisArano that all play styles are welcome in Cyro and just becasue you don't like one does not mean it needs to be removed.

I see way more organized groups in XBOX NA Shor than PUGs. More PUGs would be nice for the occasional free AP. We run into the same 4 organized guild groups every night we play.

The only kind of group I see outside of the organized groups are when I see a huge group of players that are counted well over 50. This does not happen frequently.

redspecter23

Ball groups in theory are fine. However, there should be more disadvantages to running in a large ball group and there currently are not. Highly skilled players can combat ball groups with smaller teams, but it's still an uphill battle and pug groups will simply have no chance against an organized ball group, even if they have double their numbers.

Give us more tools to break up ball groups or punish players running those playstyles in some way so that it's still an option, but there is more risk involved.

Have proxy det scale up to 48 players (standard scaling up to 6 players, then exponential scaling up to 48 players). Maybe have other abilities scale up depending on the number of targets hit. We have some options currently, but they are limited.

Fighting a skilled ball group takes far more skill and coordination than is required to run in a ball group and my thought is that it should be the reverse.