Implosion Changes

Wuuffyy

Suggestion: Would it be possible to keep physical implosion the same for people with a higher max stamina stat and keep the amplification the same for people with a higher magic stac? That way I can kill people in PvP with 30k health and 7k healing/second with ease while retaining my identity as the physical class? Is that so hard?

Grom4e

I think every pvp Sorс wants to return to the implosion because the new amplitude is very weak,it is practically nothing in pvp when the enemy is not full HP,Sorс is not a ganker

Narvuntien

Probably better to just buff Stam Sorc rather than have the skill have different effects. Implosion was a balance nightmare now its gone stam sorcs can be buffed.

dsalter

its a huge nerf to any build that isnt an animation cancelling burst build. those burst builds get a buff. something they didnt need.

Morgul667

Narvuntien wrote: »

Probably better to just buff Stam Sorc rather than have the skill have different effects. Implosion was a balance nightmare now its gone stam sorcs can be buffed.

This

Implosion synergy with bleeds and dots was keeping stamsorc alive

Now it’s gone, fine but give stamsorc a buff to compensate (something usefull and unique? Ok ill settle for usefull)

Dracane

I prefer the new passive. It makes the gap between Sorcerers and Nightblades and also Wardens actually, smaller.
They get lots of free damage by just slotting their main abilities and now we also have some % damage to compete better.

I just felt that there is no reason to choose Sorcerer over Nightblades and Wardens. They do everything better than we do. Sorcerer has nothing striking to offer. It got less punishing for me to keep playing one this patch.

Dracane

Sure, it will never be as good as free minor berserk or getting fat damage %s for slotting your abilities. It increases our overall damage though and is more or less meaningful all the time, while Implosion might be impactful once every month.

Grom4e

Implosion was a cool thing, and the amplitude was NOTHING. There's less interest in playing this game. I thought over time in this game there will be more chips,but ZOS on the contrary they are removed because the crooked can not bring to mind the balance.

labambao

Implosion was a full random.
When I playing sorc my implosion fire once at month. When others sorc just heroic slash me their implosion hit 12k when I am 23k Hp build. Screw it, new passive much better

Thraben

labambao wrote: »

Implosion was a full random.
When I playing sorc my implosion fire once at month. When others sorc just heroic slash me their implosion hit 12k when I am 23k Hp build. Screw it, new passive much better

It was only random if you decided not to use it. I had a 36% chance to proc it. It was glorious combined with VD. With the changes, both of the inofficial class spammables (Steel Tornado and Blood Craze) are more effective if used by other StamClasses.

Olupajmibanan

First of all, ZoS always balance things with PvE in mind (wether you like it or not, it's true). Even nerfs that look like PvP nerfs at start are actually meant as PvE nerfs (Remember recent change with health cap on shields? Or proc sets not critting?).

But back to the topic. Boss hp is going down faster at lower health thanks to all of the execute mechanics present in trial group. Taking first 15% of boss's hp usually takes longer than last 15% of boss's hp. From this perspective replacing Implosion with Amplitude is a buff for both magsorc and stamsorc.
Looking at my msorc parses (on target centurion with full 12-group buffs), implosion proc rate is laughable. On a stamsorc, the proc rate is somewhat higher but still seems to be weaker than downscaling damage buff that awaits with the new patch.

Majority in this topic seems to be obsessed with PvP, ok. But even in PvP it is a buff for msorc. Mage's Fury does it's job well and some random execute proc under 15% hp really wasn't needed.
As PvP stamsorc goes, I have mixed feelings. It seems to be a slight buff for Spin2w or 2h burst stamsorc. With new Amplitude, you get your targets to execute treshold easier. On the other hand, Bleed stamsorc will take a hit for sure.

What I wanted to say with all this is that this change does hurt only a small portion of all Sorcerers.

troomar

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

But back to the topic. Boss hp is going down faster at lower health thanks to all of the execute mechanics present in trial group. Taking first 15% of boss's hp usually takes longer than last 15% of boss's hp. From this perspective replacing Implosion with Amplitude is a buff for both magsorc and stamsorc.

The only problem is that the first 15% don't matter. Yes, your DPS number will be higher, but who cares about it when you wipe in the execute phase due to lack of damage?

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Looking at my msorc parses (on target centurion with full 12-group buffs), implosion proc rate is laughable. On a stamsorc, the proc rate is somewhat higher but still seems to be weaker than downscaling damage buff that awaits with the new patch.

From the DPS perspective, it is a buff. On a 65k DPS parse, implosion was ~1800 DPS (+- 100). 5% of 65k is 3250 DPS. So we got amazing average DPS gain 1,5k for the price of being a potato during execute phase. Or you can look at it this way: we got +4k DPS for the first 15% and lost 2k DPS for the execute phase. Plus the fact that all ultimates and horns and other buffs are kept to be used for the execute, it probably means even bigger loss. No thanks.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

What I wanted to say with all this is that this change does hurt only a small portion of all Sorcerers.

It will hurt only few but help nobody. This would be a buff only in the case that boss mechanics favor more DPS during the first 15% of his HP. There is none. Until then sorcerers stay out of competitive groups.

Thraben

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

2.) As PvP stamsorc goes, I have mixed feelings. It seems to be a slight buff for Spin2w or 2h burst stamsorc. With new Amplitude, you get your targets to execute treshold easier. On the other hand, Bleed stamsorc will take a hit for sure.

1.) What I wanted to say with all this is that this change does hurt only a small portion of all Sorcerers.

1) True

2) To quote a class rep: "Thanks to the changes, StamSorcs can better spin2win at 100% life xD". And 2h burst StamSorc? You mean StamWarden? An OL light attack can´t replace a SubAssault in its current form, both due to the clumsyness of 2h, and due to the Murkmire Overload changes.

Aedrion

But it's so OP.

Okay, we'll bring it back but this is its new effect.

When hitting a target below 15% health, you have a 6% chance to implode them or yourself for 15k oblivion damage.

I think it should fit nicely with the rest of the Stamsorc kit.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Thraben wrote: »

labambao wrote: »

Implosion was a full random.
When I playing sorc my implosion fire once at month. When others sorc just heroic slash me their implosion hit 12k when I am 23k Hp build. Screw it, new passive much better

It was only random if you decided not to use it. I had a 36% chance to proc it. It was glorious combined with VD. With the changes, both of the inofficial class spammables (Steel Tornado and Blood Craze) are more effective if used by other StamClasses.

No idea how you think you had a 36% chance but you might think that since you had 6 different sources of damage that you had a 36% chance. That is not how percentage chance works. You still had a only 6% chance per source.

Thraben

Aedrion wrote: »

But it's so OP.

Okay, we'll bring it back but this is its new effect.

When hitting a target below 15% health, you have a 6% chance to implode them or yourself for 15k oblivion damage.

I think it should fit nicely with the rest of the Stamsorc kit.

Damn, I should have added THAT to my suggestion thread Is the Implosion AoE? Then it would be great candidate for phoenix set bombing.

Aedrion

Thraben wrote: »

Damn, I should have added THAT to my suggestion thread Is the Implosion AoE? Then it would be great candidate for phoenix set bombing.

If it is AoE then it's AoE on your allies, not your enemies. I mean, have you SEEN how stronk this skill is? It must be kept under control, man!

Galarthor

Grom4e wrote: »

I think every pvp Sorс wants to return to the implosion because the new amplitude is very weak,it is practically nothing in pvp when the enemy is not full HP,Sorс is not a ganker

I don't!

I don't like the randomness of Implosion. And I don't think it was all that useful since it would only proc long after your execute already procced and that only at a very low rate. How big is the chance that somebody is below 15% HP - especially when your execute procs at 20% and your entire class is designed to kill the opponent with 1 combo-rotation? Multiply that by the 6% proc chance. It's close to 0.

Amplitude does not have me rely on luck rather than skill and is far easier to balance and can help with PvE performance. Therefore, I say go for it!

Merlight

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

labambao wrote: »

Implosion was a full random.
When I playing sorc my implosion fire once at month. When others sorc just heroic slash me their implosion hit 12k when I am 23k Hp build. Screw it, new passive much better

It was only random if you decided not to use it. I had a 36% chance to proc it. It was glorious combined with VD. With the changes, both of the inofficial class spammables (Steel Tornado and Blood Craze) are more effective if used by other StamClasses.

No idea how you think you had a 36% chance but you might think that since you had 6 different sources of damage that you had a 36% chance. That is not how percentage chance works. You still had a only 6% chance per source.

If you have 6 damage ticks per second, then each second you have roughly 31% chance to proc at least once (assuming the target's HP remains within range).

Anyway, didn't like the old implosion. Free damage coming out of nowhere. Not fun for the victim, not fun for the sorc (me). The new passive made me sigh, but for geeky reasons rather than player reasons. Why discrete function with branching?

cpuScientist

I dislike the old implosion. However this really isn't what I hoped would replace it. Further it is so unintuitive, I don't want to see my dps go down as I fight. The thought that my DPS decreases as a fight goes on is just maddening.

Beardimus

Grom4e wrote: »

I think every pvp Sorс wants to return to the implosion because the new amplitude is very weak,it is practically nothing in pvp when the enemy is not full HP,Sorс is not a ganker

And to that point the ganking tool we had, Overload, was nerfed into uselessness.

What we had was execute. That was about the last remaining class defining thing, and its gone. Odd, odd ,odd.

I swear Joy or one of the class reps said our offensive capability was getting looked at... This doesn't feel like that!

Dracane

Beardimus wrote: »

I swear Joy or one of the class reps said our offensive capability was getting looked at... This doesn't feel like that!

I remember this as well.
I admit, I have expected the result to look slightly different, albeit the passive being a good step.

Ever since these patchnotes were published, I have payed attention to all the fights that I had in pve and always studied the recap. I especially looked at boss fights and longer trashmob encounters. (I am a rather damage oriented tank)

My trashmob encounters were usually around 2M damage dealt. Implosion normally procs 5-7 times, with all hits together dealing roughly 100-150k damage. (mind you it scales with max health at the moment)
Now I am not great with math, but looking at an entire fight, we could say that the new passive deals an average of 5% damage, right ?

If we take the pessimistic base damage of 1,850,000 dealt over an entire fight without implosion, the new passive would give me like 92k extra damage, provided my math is even realistic. So I don't know, if this passive even a real damage increase ? At best, it's basically equal. For DDs whom deal less damage with implosion, the passive might be an upgrade.

Beardimus

Dracane wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I swear Joy or one of the class reps said our offensive capability was getting looked at... This doesn't feel like that!

I remember this as well.
I admit, I have expected the result to look slightly different, albeit the passive being a good step.

Ever since these patchnotes were published, I have payed attention to all the fights that I had in pve and always studied the recap. I especially looked at boss fights and longer trashmob encounters. (I am a rather damage oriented tank)

My trashmob encounters were usually around 2M damage dealt. Implosion normally procs 5-7 times, with all hits together dealing roughly 100-150k damage. (mind you it scales with max health at the moment)
Now I am not great with math, but looking at an entire fight, we could say that the new passive deals an average of 5% damage, right ?

If we take the pessimistic base damage of 1,850,000 dealt over an entire fight without implosion, the new passive would give me like 92k extra damage, provided my math is even realistic. So I don't know, if this passive even a real damage increase ? At best, it's basically equal. For DDs whom deal less damage with implosion, the passive might be an upgrade.

I see what you are saying, that's interesting. For me in PvP is just feel that execution was a thing / role we had going as a class and that brutal execution when it did kick in filled that role.

Admittedly when folks hit 20% it probably was already game over. However with the tank meta on the up that last 15% on good players was nice to have when it happened.

I dunno. It's like the dunmer changes for me, stats are one aspect but the concept of the changes is another. And i just don't really feel the vibe for this

Dracane

Beardimus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I swear Joy or one of the class reps said our offensive capability was getting looked at... This doesn't feel like that!

I remember this as well.
I admit, I have expected the result to look slightly different, albeit the passive being a good step.

Ever since these patchnotes were published, I have payed attention to all the fights that I had in pve and always studied the recap. I especially looked at boss fights and longer trashmob encounters. (I am a rather damage oriented tank)

My trashmob encounters were usually around 2M damage dealt. Implosion normally procs 5-7 times, with all hits together dealing roughly 100-150k damage. (mind you it scales with max health at the moment)
Now I am not great with math, but looking at an entire fight, we could say that the new passive deals an average of 5% damage, right ?

If we take the pessimistic base damage of 1,850,000 dealt over an entire fight without implosion, the new passive would give me like 92k extra damage, provided my math is even realistic. So I don't know, if this passive even a real damage increase ? At best, it's basically equal. For DDs whom deal less damage with implosion, the passive might be an upgrade.

I see what you are saying, that's interesting. For me in PvP is just feel that execution was a thing / role we had going as a class and that brutal execution when it did kick in filled that role.

Admittedly when folks hit 20% it probably was already game over. However with the tank meta on the up that last 15% on good players was nice to have when it happened.

I dunno. It's like the dunmer changes for me, stats are one aspect but the concept of the changes is another. And i just don't really feel the vibe for this

There is no arguing that Implosion was a unique mechanic and that the new one is boring in a way.
But I feel that it's an overall boost for Sorcerers. Instead of rng, we now have something solid to work with. And as I have mentioned before, Sorcerer dearly needs some % boosts to compete with other casters such as Nightblades and Wardens. They still get more, but at least we get something as well now.

Stamina Sorcerers will profit from increased pressure as well. Of course I understand implosion was way more reliable for them than for Magicka Sorcerers. We really only got it once every 2 and a half weeks.

Dracane

There is one proposal I would like to make. To make amplitude more consistent and more impactful all over the fight.
If we were to just increase the maximum value, it could become too good in some situations.
But the floor could be raised to prevent it from becoming irrelevant on low health.

100-90%: 10% damage
89-70% : 9% damage
69-50% : 8% damage
49-30% : 7% damage
29-10% : 6% damage
9-0% : 5% damage

This way the damage would be more consistent, without raising its potential and without making the loss of Implosion seem so impactful on low health.

It also would not be too strong. Because some other classes for example get 8% damage all the time.

Merlight

Dracane wrote: »

It also would not be too strong. Because some other classes for example get 8% damage all the time.

Sorry, "because some other classes" argument doesn't fly. Nobody wants all classes to play the same. Also, Storm Calling already has 2 other passives increasing damage.

MashmalloMan

We really only get 10 % for the first hit. For PvE, add the fact that relequen requires a build up and so does Siroria, by the time your at full DPs potential the mob is already at 80% HP.

Not very consistent.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Merlight wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

labambao wrote: »

Implosion was a full random.
When I playing sorc my implosion fire once at month. When others sorc just heroic slash me their implosion hit 12k when I am 23k Hp build. Screw it, new passive much better

It was only random if you decided not to use it. I had a 36% chance to proc it. It was glorious combined with VD. With the changes, both of the inofficial class spammables (Steel Tornado and Blood Craze) are more effective if used by other StamClasses.

No idea how you think you had a 36% chance but you might think that since you had 6 different sources of damage that you had a 36% chance. That is not how percentage chance works. You still had a only 6% chance per source.

If you have 6 damage ticks per second, then each second you have roughly 31% chance to proc at least once (assuming the target's HP remains within range).

Anyway, didn't like the old implosion. Free damage coming out of nowhere. Not fun for the victim, not fun for the sorc (me). The new passive made me sigh, but for geeky reasons rather than player reasons. Why discrete function with branching?

That is still not how it works, you still only have a 6% chance per.

LiquidPony

Dracane wrote: »

There is one proposal I would like to make. To make amplitude more consistent and more impactful all over the fight.
If we were to just increase the maximum value, it could become too good in some situations.
But the floor could be raised to prevent it from becoming irrelevant on low health.

100-90%: 10% damage
89-70% : 9% damage
69-50% : 8% damage
49-30% : 7% damage
29-10% : 6% damage
9-0% : 5% damage

This way the damage would be more consistent, without raising its potential and without making the loss of Implosion seem so impactful on low health.

It also would not be too strong. Because some other classes for example get 8% damage all the time.

But that "8% all the time" is a Minor buff that can be had from other sources.

Dracane

Merlight wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It also would not be too strong. Because some other classes for example get 8% damage all the time.

Sorry, "because some other classes" argument doesn't fly. Nobody wants all classes to play the same. Also, Storm Calling already has 2 other passives increasing damage.

You are correct. Yet, I believe all clases should be able to achieve roughly the same results, albeit in different ways.

Is it fair that a class can achieve 14-32% more flat damage than other classes ? Because this for example is what warden can achieve. 8% free minor berserk, 6% magic damage (a common damage type that every magicka build uses) and up to 18% from animal companion, few of course have that. 2% spell damage is also not even close as good as 2% damage dealt.

It doesn't feel too good playing a class and knowing, another class gets so much more damage for free.
And this isn't just a comparison between Sorcerer and Wardens.
With the new passive, the gap is no longer as shocking.

Dracane

LiquidPony wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

There is one proposal I would like to make. To make amplitude more consistent and more impactful all over the fight.
If we were to just increase the maximum value, it could become too good in some situations.
But the floor could be raised to prevent it from becoming irrelevant on low health.

100-90%: 10% damage
89-70% : 9% damage
69-50% : 8% damage
49-30% : 7% damage
29-10% : 6% damage
9-0% : 5% damage

This way the damage would be more consistent, without raising its potential and without making the loss of Implosion seem so impactful on low health.

It also would not be too strong. Because some other classes for example get 8% damage all the time.

But that "8% all the time" is a Minor buff that can be had from other sources.

And the sacrifise for doing so makes you loose out elsewhere.
Slimecraw is the least intrusive way of gaining it. But don't you feel like a fool, using 2 set pieces to gain a buff that other classes get for free and knowing, they could slot 2 true damage sets there, thus still outperforming you ? I do.

The only other way is using a healing staff with combat prayer, which costs you elsewhere.
You must admit, gaining minor Berserk on your main nuke that everyone uses, which at the same time is the hardest hitting burst ability in the game, is very convenient and quite ridiculous at the same time if you think about it.