Stealth archer meta is ruining BGs

MaxJrFTW

I wouldn't say it's ruining bgs, but over the last week there has been a surge of snipers in the high mmr queues. Not fun when you have 2 or 3 nbs in your team and you're the only visible target. It's happening to everybody though, i don't think i've had a game with less than 4 nightblades all week.

KhajiitFelix

Make snipe available at level 51 bow

Thogard

Even if it isn’t the best or most optimal playstyle, it definitely is a FUN playstyle.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SuaveObliviousSheepThunBeast

IlCanis_LupuslI

Zeromaz wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

reduce the damage by 75% make it a instant cast with a small dot component, remove the defile, reduce the range to 20m remove the stun from stealth, fix the health dysinc.
Also fixed some of your values(more accurate how hard a snipestacker can hit) I tried a snipestacker for 1h in pvp 2 months ago and was horrified...

1st: reduce the range? really? why not make achers fight melee with 1 arrow in each hand?

2nd: the stun from stealth is something that can be done with ALL ATTACKS in the game. this is a mechanic from crouch state. nothing more. you can do the same with dark flare. NBs only have a buff that makes this particular stun last longer, but since minded ppl tend to breakfree and dodge right after any stun, this buff is somehow low.

It surprises me how many people don’t understand basic mechanics in the game but feel they have an important voice on game balancing and changes

@Zeromaz @kalunte I'm well aware of that thx.did I ever mention the stun beeing tied to La specifically? L2read The whole concept of attacks automatically stunning from stealth is stupid, wouldn't be a problem thou if the cc break wouldn't require mashing since the first attempt never registeres. Oh dodgeroll ahaha good luck with that with the current pvp performance.
And yes range reduction 20m range is quite enough range msorcs and mblades seem to handle it quite well so why can't you?
Ive played snipe stacking long enough to know how broken it is so yeah I think I have the right to voice my opinion since even the imbeciles defending that broken skill have that right.
Again I can't understand how anyone can think a skill with a tool tip equal that of the most hard hitting Ultimates with a 50m range and the strongest debuff in game in combination with the tendency to cause even the tankiest player to instantly die is balanced. How can a one think hitting players with a 25k+ la from stealth from 50m away is balanced? I have a nb I play every now and again since I know exactly that even the best players have 0 chance to survive in a laggy environment. How can anyone defend that? Oh yeah before the classical "Oh you miss spelled that wrong" comes Im tipping on a phone at - 10°C so I ccl. Have a nice day.

Get_Packed

OP your complaining about snipe with 12k resists and 20k health thats your peoblem. I also play magden and If im getting sniped i just slot SHIMMERING SHIELD. Magden is better equippped for killing snipers than almost any other class.

Posting bg scores is fruitless, who knows what your mmr is. Anybody can post scores in great scored while seal clubbing or in a premade.

As a magden i feel this is a l2p issue soz

Zeromaz

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

reduce the damage by 75% make it a instant cast with a small dot component, remove the defile, reduce the range to 20m remove the stun from stealth, fix the health dysinc.
Also fixed some of your values(more accurate how hard a snipestacker can hit) I tried a snipestacker for 1h in pvp 2 months ago and was horrified...

1st: reduce the range? really? why not make achers fight melee with 1 arrow in each hand?

2nd: the stun from stealth is something that can be done with ALL ATTACKS in the game. this is a mechanic from crouch state. nothing more. you can do the same with dark flare. NBs only have a buff that makes this particular stun last longer, but since minded ppl tend to breakfree and dodge right after any stun, this buff is somehow low.

It surprises me how many people don’t understand basic mechanics in the game but feel they have an important voice on game balancing and changes

@Zeromaz @kalunte I'm well aware of that thx.did I ever mention the stun beeing tied to La specifically? L2read The whole concept of attacks automatically stunning from stealth is stupid, wouldn't be a problem thou if the cc break wouldn't require mashing since the first attempt never registeres. Oh dodgeroll ahaha good luck with that with the current pvp performance.
And yes range reduction 20m range is quite enough range msorcs and mblades seem to handle it quite well so why can't you?
Ive played snipe stacking long enough to know how broken it is so yeah I think I have the right to voice my opinion since even the imbeciles defending that broken skill have that right.
Again I can't understand how anyone can think a skill with a tool tip equal that of the most hard hitting Ultimates with a 50m range and the strongest debuff in game in combination with the tendency to cause even the tankiest player to instantly die is balanced. How can a one think hitting players with a 25k+ la from stealth from 50m away is balanced? I have a nb I play every now and again since I know exactly that even the best players have 0 chance to survive in a laggy environment. How can anyone defend that? Oh yeah before the classical "Oh you miss spelled that wrong" comes Im tipping on a phone at - 10°C so I ccl. Have a nice day.

You have to understand when we’re specifically talking about snipe and the stun from sneak.... kinda sounds like you’re targetting snipe. Not stun mechanic itself

InvictusApollo

I have one char built for sniping but even before I knew how to counter them. It's actually very easy, but it's not something that someone who just runs into combat mashing buttons would understand. I'd list all the ways to counter a sniper but as I said I have one such char.
Maybe when I get proper melee equipment for her I will.

ecru

Get_Packed wrote: »

OP your complaining about snipe with 12k resists and 20k health thats your peoblem. I also play magden and If im getting sniped i just slot SHIMMERING SHIELD. Magden is better equippped for killing snipers than almost any other class.

Posting bg scores is fruitless, who knows what your mmr is. Anybody can post scores in great scored while seal clubbing or in a premade.

As a magden i feel this is a l2p issue soz

If it's possible to basically global someone from range because they aren't wearing some heavy armor, don't have a resist buff up, and aren't wearing full impen, then damage is too high in general/TTK is too low. It shouldn't be something that's possible in any scenario unless your opponent is literally not wearing any gear at all. No build should just 1 shot people from range--period. This isn't a FPS, it's a MMO, and TTK should always be longer than that in a MMO.

Sharee

ecru wrote: »

Get_Packed wrote: »

OP your complaining about snipe with 12k resists and 20k health thats your peoblem. I also play magden and If im getting sniped i just slot SHIMMERING SHIELD. Magden is better equippped for killing snipers than almost any other class.

Posting bg scores is fruitless, who knows what your mmr is. Anybody can post scores in great scored while seal clubbing or in a premade.

As a magden i feel this is a l2p issue soz

If it's possible to basically global someone from range because they aren't wearing some heavy armor, don't have a resist buff up, and aren't wearing full impen, then damage is too high in general/TTK is too low. It shouldn't be something that's possible in any scenario unless your opponent is literally not wearing any gear at all. No build should just 1 shot people from range--period. This isn't a FPS, it's a MMO, and TTK should always be longer than that in a MMO.

Why do you single out "from range"? If it is possible from melee then its okay?

And let me tell you, it is 3x as easy to "global" someone from melee than from range.

Beardimus

Snipe being bust doesn't help

Interestingly since seeing this thread I've seen loads of archers in BG, between that and very dull tether tanks its making BG a bit stale

LordTareq

When the issue is that a build does 18k damage in a single burst sequence, and your health is roughly similar to that, the solution is rather simple. If you were to have say 32k health, you'd have 14k health left to play with after the burst, its your own decision to skip on health.
I'm running around with about 30k health in BG's and have little issues with sniper burst, I mean I incidentally get taken down obviously but not excessively so that it bothers me. Admittedly my character is a nightblade as well, so cloak helps me to close the gap without getting shot.
Honestly the snipe may be a bit much atm, but worst I find the semi-unbreakable knockback CC they spam which is thankfully soon fixed.

Get_Packed

Its risk vs reward, those bow build hit hard but they can be killed by two birds and a la. Hell, I 1v3’d thogard so hard on his bow build in a Bg I had to ask him if he sold his account.

So if your taking the risk running high damage and low health then you are at risk of being “one-shot”. It doesnt matter if its from ranged or a sub-assault DB.

Your greatest friend when fighting bow builds in a bg is to have sotuational awareness. You know where they are going to be.

ecru

Sharee wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Get_Packed wrote: »

OP your complaining about snipe with 12k resists and 20k health thats your peoblem. I also play magden and If im getting sniped i just slot SHIMMERING SHIELD. Magden is better equippped for killing snipers than almost any other class.

Posting bg scores is fruitless, who knows what your mmr is. Anybody can post scores in great scored while seal clubbing or in a premade.

As a magden i feel this is a l2p issue soz

If it's possible to basically global someone from range because they aren't wearing some heavy armor, don't have a resist buff up, and aren't wearing full impen, then damage is too high in general/TTK is too low. It shouldn't be something that's possible in any scenario unless your opponent is literally not wearing any gear at all. No build should just 1 shot people from range--period. This isn't a FPS, it's a MMO, and TTK should always be longer than that in a MMO.

Why do you single out "from range"? If it is possible from melee then its okay?

And let me tell you, it is 3x as easy to "global" someone from melee than from range.

It should be easier to do more burst damage from melee than from range, because melee has to be in melee range. It's specifically a problem when it comes from range because the person attacking you isn't necessarily going to be in your field of view. Someone in melee range of you will always be visible, so you will at the very least be somewhat prepared to take damage. If the person about to global you is 30m behind you standing next to a pillar, well, you might not be as prepared.

LordTareq wrote: »

When the issue is that a build does 18k damage in a single burst sequence, and your health is roughly similar to that, the solution is rather simple. If you were to have say 32k health, you'd have 14k health left to play with after the burst, its your own decision to skip on health.
I'm running around with about 30k health in BG's and have little issues with sniper burst, I mean I incidentally get taken down obviously but not excessively so that it bothers me. Admittedly my character is a nightblade as well, so cloak helps me to close the gap without getting shot.
Honestly the snipe may be a bit much atm, but worst I find the semi-unbreakable knockback CC they spam which is thankfully soon fixed.

You're right, the solution is simple. TTK is clearly too low considering health pools, so health pools should be raised in general. People loading up on health enchants/heavy armor sets shouldn't be the solution to someone doing 18-20k damage from range in one second. Most people aren't tanks, don't queue as tanks, and while they might realize that they need a bit more survivability for a BG, most people aren't going to push their health to that level, nor should they be forced to in order to counter builds like this.

TTK is too low in BGs in general. Damage is too high and health pools are too low to counter it. To counter this extremely high outgoing damage in proportion to health pools, we have crazy burst heals and substantial shields, because if we didn't, people would just fall over and die the moment someone specced for full DPS looked at them. I think BGs would be more enjoyable if TTK were a bit longer, which could be done with higher base health for everyone, or a change to the battle spirit healing/damage modifier, lowering damage and healing a bit in general. The flat 50% is honestly a very simple and very dumb way to try to balance things because we can clearly see that 50% on everything isn't enough, or in any way "balanced" at all.

Get_Packed

I run 20k health with no defense sets with light armor, sure they hurt but they cant one shot me.
L2p
L2p
L2p

Thogard

Get_Packed wrote: »

Its risk vs reward, those bow build hit hard but they can be killed by two birds and a la. Hell, I 1v3’d thogard so hard on his bow build in a Bg I had to ask him if he sold his account.

So if your taking the risk running high damage and low health then you are at risk of being “one-shot”. It doesnt matter if its from ranged or a sub-assault DB.

Your greatest friend when fighting bow builds in a bg is to have sotuational awareness. You know where they are going to be.

Who are you?

Only person who’s asked me that is Drizzt but that was when he was premade queueing and wing flapping and I was solo

IzzyStardust

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Aedrion wrote: »

Howdy
Finally, doesn't warden have a great anti-ranged magicka shield that gives you huge bursts of ult? Shimmering Shield? Sounds like keeping that up might help.

Admittedly I did overlook this, however my bars are pretty full so its hard to swap something in when needed.

As for survivability, I seem to do fine in the vast majority of the games I play when 1vX, spent a long time getting that right right with the amount of health/mitigation/damage/self-heal, but as you probably guessed, archers, and to a lesser extend general stealthspammers kinda throw this balance out of whack

Especially now - when if anyone in your group is in combat even miles away - you are in combat and cannot even drag one skill out for another.

Sharee

ecru wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Why do you single out "from range"? If it is possible from melee then its okay?

And let me tell you, it is 3x as easy to "global" someone from melee than from range.

It should be easier to do more burst damage from melee than from range, because melee has to be in melee range. It's specifically a problem when it comes from range because the person attacking you isn't necessarily going to be in your field of view. Someone in melee range of you will always be visible, so you will at the very least be somewhat prepared to take damage. If the person about to global you is 30m behind you standing next to a pillar, well, you might not be as prepared.

That just comes down to lack of situational awareness.

You know there are bows in this game, and people who will shoot you with them. You should always be prepared to take the damage.

If you die to a single snipe because you did not know the archer was there, you will just as well die to a single wrecking blow from a cloaked nightblade. "I did not know he was there" is no reason to nerf ranged combat.

ecru

Sharee wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Why do you single out "from range"? If it is possible from melee then its okay?

And let me tell you, it is 3x as easy to "global" someone from melee than from range.

It should be easier to do more burst damage from melee than from range, because melee has to be in melee range. It's specifically a problem when it comes from range because the person attacking you isn't necessarily going to be in your field of view. Someone in melee range of you will always be visible, so you will at the very least be somewhat prepared to take damage. If the person about to global you is 30m behind you standing next to a pillar, well, you might not be as prepared.

That just comes down to lack of situational awareness.

You know there are bows in this game, and people who will shoot you with them. You should always be prepared to take the damage.

If you die to a single snipe because you did not know the archer was there, you will just as well die to a single wrecking blow from a cloaked nightblade. "I did not know he was there" is no reason to nerf ranged combat.

Haha no, it doesn't just come down to situational awareness. No one can see players at 30m distance 360 degrees around their character at any one time, but everyone can see a player in melee range of them. Taking a bit of damage from range does not necessitate the same response that a NB uncloaking on top of you does, nor should it, because potential ranged burst dps should not be equal to melee because they are ranged. This is basic risk/reward stuff that people with the smallest amount of common sense understand, and melee having higher dps/burst dps potential has been a thing in every MMO that has ever existed.

Honestly I'm not sure if you're being intellectually dishonest on purpose, or.. heh.

Zeromaz

This post is boarderline funny to me. I barely have 18k HP and don’t seem to have any issues with snipe. I also don’t have Vigor... i’m overwhelmed with confusion as to how people are obsessing over this ability recently, seeing as it has had no changes in... well... quite a long time.

Once the whiners see something nerfed, they’ll find the next to complain about.

Mintaka5

Not just BGs, but Cyrodiil campaigns as well. Just ruining PvP in general. Spent most of Sunday morning getting harassed by Stuart Little, who comes out of stealth for a split second, stuns, and drops an enormous DOT snipe on me. Absolutely aggravating and *** gameplay, Stuart.

Sharee

ecru wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Why do you single out "from range"? If it is possible from melee then its okay?

And let me tell you, it is 3x as easy to "global" someone from melee than from range.

It should be easier to do more burst damage from melee than from range, because melee has to be in melee range. It's specifically a problem when it comes from range because the person attacking you isn't necessarily going to be in your field of view. Someone in melee range of you will always be visible, so you will at the very least be somewhat prepared to take damage. If the person about to global you is 30m behind you standing next to a pillar, well, you might not be as prepared.

That just comes down to lack of situational awareness.

You know there are bows in this game, and people who will shoot you with them. You should always be prepared to take the damage.

If you die to a single snipe because you did not know the archer was there, you will just as well die to a single wrecking blow from a cloaked nightblade. "I did not know he was there" is no reason to nerf ranged combat.

Haha no, it doesn't just come down to situational awareness. No one can see players at 30m distance 360 degrees around their character at any one time, but everyone can see a player in melee range of them.

Except for that invisible nightblade who just "globaled" you. Let me guess. Nerf invisibility next, because your light armor, no impen, no resist buff behind got "globaled" while you did not know your attacker was there?

That's the same argument you are using against a ranged attack.

ecru wrote: »

Taking a bit of damage from range does not necessitate the same response that a NB uncloaking on top of you does, nor should it, because potential ranged burst dps should not be equal to melee because they are ranged. This is basic risk/reward stuff that people with the smallest amount of common sense understand, and melee having higher dps/burst dps potential has been a thing in every MMO that has ever existed.

And it absolutely isn't equal. Spamming snipe is nowhere near the burst DPS of a stamden dropping shalks, dawnbreaker, and executioner on you in exact the same split second. (And while we are at it, it also isn't anywhere near equal to the burst of a magsorc hitting you with curse,fury,meteor and frag at the same time.)

ecru wrote: »

Honestly I'm not sure if you're being intellectually dishonest on purpose, or.. heh.

Right back at you.
Heh.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

TL;DR - get out of here with your "you probably suck so your point is invalid" nonsense and come back with an actual argument

If you're going into any PvP environment without at least 26k health and 25 - 30k in resists, you're going to die. Instead of trying a type of glass cannon build, try incorporating some type of defense in your build. (Either through CP or armor sets.)

Most_Awesome

There's only two types of people who complain about snipe

Player 1 = Light armoured no impen, no shields, mashes keyboard when stunned and screams at the screen as the second snipe kills them.

Player 2 = God tier build tanky bleeds, shield stacking infinite resources, always breaks free after 1 snipe gets shields up, either then kills Bowtard or T-bags the ground and /w How poo you are and how you can never beat them in a proper 1v1.

VikingBerserker

Aedrion wrote: »

Howdy

Yes, Snipe is overperforming when it's used from afar while you're fighting one or two other players. It'll devour your health, stun you and defile you. That is unfortunate but I doubt the weapon skills will get revised. We don't get listened to.

When you list your personal stats as 20k HP and ~13k resistances, I would attribute your quick deaths mostly to being a squishy in an environment where - unless you have a good healer on your team - you cannot afford to be squishy.

I would suggest aiming for ~23-24k HP and something to buffer your resistances so that in combat, they're around 17k at least. 20k+ is preferred for BG's if you're a melee class. For Magden, ~17k should do. You can then also run Ward Ally when you get sniped and have low HP.

Also, try to either use line of sight to block their snipes or charge right into their face with a gap closer. If you can't do either, avoid engaging until you know where they are.

Finally, doesn't warden have a great anti-ranged magicka shield that gives you huge bursts of ult? Shimmering Shield? Sounds like keeping that up might help.

Its not as reliable as one would hope.

VikingBerserker

I had my ass handed to me for months before I got good enough to perform consistently, which is prly why a lot of these posts sound like crybaby nonsense.

ecru

Sharee wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Why do you single out "from range"? If it is possible from melee then its okay?

And let me tell you, it is 3x as easy to "global" someone from melee than from range.

It should be easier to do more burst damage from melee than from range, because melee has to be in melee range. It's specifically a problem when it comes from range because the person attacking you isn't necessarily going to be in your field of view. Someone in melee range of you will always be visible, so you will at the very least be somewhat prepared to take damage. If the person about to global you is 30m behind you standing next to a pillar, well, you might not be as prepared.

That just comes down to lack of situational awareness.

You know there are bows in this game, and people who will shoot you with them. You should always be prepared to take the damage.

If you die to a single snipe because you did not know the archer was there, you will just as well die to a single wrecking blow from a cloaked nightblade. "I did not know he was there" is no reason to nerf ranged combat.

Haha no, it doesn't just come down to situational awareness. No one can see players at 30m distance 360 degrees around their character at any one time, but everyone can see a player in melee range of them.

Except for that invisible nightblade who just "globaled" you. Let me guess. Nerf invisibility next, because your light armor, no impen, no resist buff behind got "globaled" while you did not know your attacker was there?

That's the same argument you are using against a ranged attack.

ecru wrote: »

Taking a bit of damage from range does not necessitate the same response that a NB uncloaking on top of you does, nor should it, because potential ranged burst dps should not be equal to melee because they are ranged. This is basic risk/reward stuff that people with the smallest amount of common sense understand, and melee having higher dps/burst dps potential has been a thing in every MMO that has ever existed.

And it absolutely isn't equal. Spamming snipe is nowhere near the burst DPS of a stamden dropping shalks, dawnbreaker, and executioner on you in exact the same split second. (And while we are at it, it also isn't anywhere near equal to the burst of a magsorc hitting you with curse,fury,meteor and frag at the same time.)

ecru wrote: »

Honestly I'm not sure if you're being intellectually dishonest on purpose, or.. heh.

Right back at you.
Heh.

Why would you compare sorc burst, which you can see coming a mile away and have plenty of time to prepare for, to snipe? Meteor, really? When is the last time someone landed a sneaky meteor on you? Maybe when you were AFK?

lmao

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

TL;DR - get out of here with your "you probably suck so your point is invalid" nonsense and come back with an actual argument

If you're going into any PvP environment without at least 26k health and 25 - 30k in resists, you're going to die. Instead of trying a type of glass cannon build, try incorporating some type of defense in your build. (Either through CP or armor sets.)

No one should be required to load up on resists and health so they don't get globaled from 30m. If this is a requirement for someone to queue for a BG, then damage in BGs is too high/TTK is too low. The vast majority of players do not have builds like this, and by enforcing this kind of meta because damage is so high, you're locking the vast majority of players out of BGs or ensuring that when they do queue for BGs, they have a very bad time.

There are a lot of people in this thread only concerned with themselves. I hate to have to remind you of this, but there are other people who queue for BGs besides you and your friends. A whole lot more, actually. Their experience in BGs is more important than yours because there are a lot more of them than you.

Sharee

ecru wrote: »

No one should be required to load up on resists and health so they don't get globaled from 30m.

Snipe takes 1,1 seconds to cast. GCD is 1 second. To get "globaled" you would have to die from a single snipe. A single snipe does not do enough damage to remove all hitpoints from a full health player, even if he does not "load up on resists and health".

Thus, your argument is nonsense.

It is also nonsense because you insist a player should not be able to "global" your toilet-paper-clad behind from 30m because you dont know its coming. But a NB will happily global you from 1m(and he actually CAN do it in 1 sec), and you also wont see it coming. But i dont see you protesting against the latter. So - double standards.

ecru

Sharee wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

No one should be required to load up on resists and health so they don't get globaled from 30m.

Snipe takes 1,1 seconds to cast. GCD is 1 second. To get "globaled" you would have to die from a single snipe. A single snipe does not do enough damage to remove all hitpoints from a full health player, even if he does not "load up on resists and health".

Thus, your argument is nonsense.

It is also nonsense because you insist a player should not be able to "global" your toilet-paper-clad behind from 30m because you dont know its coming. But a NB will happily global you from 1m(and he actually CAN do it in 1 sec), and you also wont see it coming. But i dont see you protesting against the latter. So - double standards.

apparently snipe does damage as soon as the cast starts. guess i learned something new today.

Sharee

ecru wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

No one should be required to load up on resists and health so they don't get globaled from 30m.

Snipe takes 1,1 seconds to cast. GCD is 1 second. To get "globaled" you would have to die from a single snipe. A single snipe does not do enough damage to remove all hitpoints from a full health player, even if he does not "load up on resists and health".

Thus, your argument is nonsense.

It is also nonsense because you insist a player should not be able to "global" your toilet-paper-clad behind from 30m because you dont know its coming. But a NB will happily global you from 1m(and he actually CAN do it in 1 sec), and you also wont see it coming. But i dont see you protesting against the latter. So - double standards.

apparently snipe does damage as soon as the cast starts. guess i learned something new today.

Snipe does damage when it hits. But it takes 1.1 seconds to cast, which means that (bugs aside) the next snipe wont hit you until 1.1 seconds after the first.
GCD is 1 second. Snipes alone can not kill you in 1 GCD, even if it only took two to kill you.

Qbiken

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I also like to delete people without counterplay