[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - September 25

Skwor

My take away, once again Templars are an afterthought and poorly represented.

Emmagoldman

thanks for the update. I was really taken back by "running out of time". I recall during MOS parch, the dev team discussed that next update would have changes. Im curious to what happened between fanglair and now? If I recall, summerset had few changes and murkmire would be a bigger overhaul.

It seems that if player feedback was introduced earlier, there would be time for more meaningful suggestions and testing.
I have a feeling that this patch will be rushed live. Sadly, this patch is the most unmotivating i've witnessed.

Masel

Skwor wrote: »

My take away, once again Templars are an afterthought and poorly represented.

Templars got a really nice chunk of changes that were well received, why should we talk about them?

casparian

Masel92 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

My take away, once again Templars are an afterthought and poorly represented.

Templars got a really nice chunk of changes that were well received, why should we talk about them?

1. Evasion change means our main spammable is 25% worse vs. the majority of PVP opponents, making this patch a net offensive nerf for us in PVP
2. Stamplars lost our Minor Vitality and our access to permanent Minor Protection (now we only get it while on the offensive), pushing us into heavy armor (which again, is a net offensive nerf)
3. Crescent/Empowering Sweep change was a step in the right direction, but since the ability has a short range and a wonky hitbox, it doesn't really matter (seriously, try hitting someone with this in PVP -- I know all ults have targeting problems, but this skill is something special)
4. ZOS still refuses to acknowledge the existence of the Sweeps/Jabs over-mitigation bug in PVP
5. ZOS said on ESO Live that they changed the magicka morph of Javelin to give magplars a reliable stun that doesn't knock people out of Sweeps range (since stamplars can achieve the same with DBOS), but on PTS they actually changed the stam morph, not mag. Which one did they intend?

Also see Joy's feedback.

Krymzonbladez

Dymence wrote: »

Krymzonbladez wrote: »

All of this is still completely ***, making the shields be crittable removed the issue with them being "op" in pvp. Everything after that singular change is just being a jerk to most players who aren't in the top 5-10%. Shields being "op" in noncompetitive modes just seems a stupid thing to say they are functioning as designed. I don't understand why if the issue was only with magsorcs why would you make a change to a NON-class skill ergo annulment and so forth. It makes little to no sense at all.

"Noncompetitive modes" is a really bad argument. Why not simply give us god mode commands and ability to oneshot mobs and bosses with light attacks then? And they already said they found shields overperforming in PVE in general, not just magsorcs, that's why the light armor shield is getting the same treatment. It makes perfect sense when you understand their vision.

They are also idiots, so saying shields are over performing just means shields are performing as designed. If they are going to nerf shields, they should do it to ALL of them not just target light armor wearers who actually Need the shielding to survive through the content they provide.

ruikkarikun

Boundless storm nerf ok nice. More nerfs to sorc. Well done (sarcasm) Hardened ward is useless. Shield is useless, GG NICE. KEEP GOING TO KILL SORCERER. WHAT CLASS WILL BE NEXT?

RedRook

WarriorOfVolchara wrote: »

If ZoS really wants to make tanks and healers neccesary for this content I can suggest something. How about: If you choose a DD role your healing done is reduced for 90%; If you choose a Tank or Healer role your damage done is reduced for 90%.

Its kind of sounds like this is the only way because we can still meet DDs who use vigor, breath of life, matriarch... So while dd has a DD role they wont be able to heal enough to survive without healer and while dd has a Tank or Healer role they wont be able to deal enought damage to burn bosses down and ignore mechanics and vigor with burst heals wont be enough.

Nice idea, right?

I don't know. I've healed a lot of PUGs, and I can tell you surprisingly often the damage I could contribute as the healer was absolutely necessary to clear the dungeon. And while I don't tank, I'm pretty sure they need whatever healing they're carrying to work at its usual strength.

Masel

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Boundless storm nerf ok nice. More nerfs to sorc. Well done (sarcasm) Hardened ward is useless. Shield is useless, GG NICE. KEEP GOING TO KILL SORCERER. WHAT CLASS WILL BE NEXT?

Yeah sorcs are entirely dead. We'll hold a funeral once we killed the Shadows of Z'Maja that won't let us get their dead bodies out of cloudrest. Can you calm down a bit and go test the changes? Because I don't know how large your Shields are in pvp, but you won't get a lot more than 50-60% of your health anyway, that'd require you to have two times the magicka compared to your health. With 20k health and a 20% coefficient in pvp (dampen magicka/hardened ward) you can get 8k, requiring you to have over 40k magicka. In cp you might get there, but in bgs and no-cp you will not.

Illuvatarr

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Its been more than a year now and stamDK still remains as a stinking piece of garbage.(with 2m longer arms now apparently, so does that make us qualify as weird mutant zombies? With a stinkin toxic breath and long venomous claws?)

Anyways , I just wanted to say its sad. I'm sad. I can't make an excuse to play this abomination anymore. StamDK doesn't have pain points anymore, stamDK, is the pain point.

Stam DK’s aren’t garbage. Why do you say that? Not trolling, serious.

Krymzonbladez

Really don't understand this bull at all. Nerf dps of Sorc and their shielding( not to mention the shielding of every other class that uses light armor) but say they need to make sacrifices to be able to dps nerf their maneuverability so they can't gtfo when they need to. Just don't get why ZOS hates this class so much. Really don't understand the whole travel time for frags, as the closer you are to something the less distance it has to travel not to mention it's an ability with a cast time leaving you open with your useless shields, and now they can even more easily dodge the projectile and out run you while your mobility has been shot or crit through your useless shields that you now Have to stack.

Sparr0w

WarriorOfVolchara wrote: »

If ZoS really wants to make tanks and healers neccesary for this content I can suggest something. How about: If you choose a DD role your healing done is reduced for 90%; If you choose a Tank or Healer role your damage done is reduced for 90%.

Its kind of sounds like this is the only way because we can still meet DDs who use vigor, breath of life, matriarch... So while dd has a DD role they wont be able to heal enough to survive without healer and while dd has a Tank or Healer role they wont be able to deal enought damage to burn bosses down and ignore mechanics and vigor with burst heals wont be enough.

Nice idea, right?

Then you'll just get a dd tank that doesn't keep agro & now does no damage, a dd healer that cant heal and now does no damage & another DD that runs in circles more than they currently do since they cant heal through anything.

EDIT: Typo

Bevik

Sparr0w wrote: »

WarriorOfVolchara wrote: »

If ZoS really wants to make tanks and healers neccesary for this content I can suggest something. How about: If you choose a DD role your healing done is reduced for 90%; If you choose a Tank or Healer role your damage done is reduced for 90%.

Its kind of sounds like this is the only way because we can still meet DDs who use vigor, breath of life, matriarch... So while dd has a DD role they wont be able to heal enough to survive without healer and while dd has a Tank or Healer role they wont be able to deal enought damage to burn bosses down and ignore mechanics and vigor with burst heals wont be enough.

Nice idea, right?

Then you'll just get a dd tank that doesn't keep agro & now does no damage, a dd healer that cant heal and now does no damage & another DD that runs in circles more than they currently do since they cant heal through anything.

EDIT: Typo

Well that's the problem with content design or class design we shall say. In other games these things are not the problem. Healer is needed, tank is needed, DDs doing damage and trying to avoid damage. This all class/race can do everything is failing here unfortunately. Jack of all trades.

Even though if they will manage to actually make all classes viable in all roles would take them another 4 years or so.

ezio45

@Masel92

Im not really worried about the shield changes in pvp, its manageable. Pve on the other hand im very concerned with. I dont see alot of ways we can compensate for this in end game pve. Im especially worried about vma were I dont have a healer. Some of those attacks im routinely getting hit for 8k per attack and my shields going to be around 6k.

Also Boundless storm nerf kinda bothers me. Its not the stam morph and stamina builds were the ones benefiting form the high player movement speed not the mag builds. magsorc mobility has been raise as a concern even by the reps and this hurts that for those of us who were willing to slot boundless.

Masel

ezio45 wrote: »

@Masel92

Im not really worried about the shield changes in pvp, its manageable. Pve on the other hand im very concerned with. I dont see alot of ways we can compensate for this in end game pve. Im especially worried about vma were I dont have a healer. Some of those attacks im routinely getting hit for 8k per attack and my shields going to be around 6k.

Also Boundless storm nerf kinda bothers me. Its not the stam morph and stamina builds were the ones benefiting form the high player movement speed not the mag builds. magsorc mobility has been raise as a concern even by the reps and this hurts that for those of us who were willing to slot boundless.

I agree on the boundless storm thing, and I just wrote in our dev discord that the nerfs targetted the wrong builds in the same wrong way as the builds that needed adressing. I have not met a person that likes these short buffs that are over before you notice they were there. "Oh I'm fast... Oh, I was fast".

Feanor

@Masel92

What does the shield cap solve actually, other than screwing over PvE? You’re correct that it won’t affect players who didn’t shield stack in PvP in the first place, especially in noCP. No, for PvP the real issue is that resistances will not balance out with crits if you run LA, and changing your build to become more tanky either results in damage being even lower or in sustain issues that are even worse than on live.

Without changes to the toolkit I can play a Sorc tank in PvP. Any other class is better for this though.

Masel

Feanor wrote: »

@Masel92

What does the shield cap solve actually, other than screwing over PvE? You’re correct that it won’t affect players who didn’t shield stack in PvP in the first place, especially in noCP. No, for PvP the real issue is that resistances will not balance out with crits if you run LA, and changing your build to become more tanky either results in damage being even lower or in sustain issues that are even worse than on live.

Without changes to the toolkit I can play a Sorc tank in PvP. Any other class is better for this though.

The point of the reduction was pve for that matter. Shields gave light armor users basically a second health bar in demand, and allowed you to absorb a lot more damage than a stamina build could, and survive things a stamina build could not without a healer.

Pve content became fairly easy due to the high dps and cp and you dont see healers in four man content. Take dsa for example, it's fairly easy to do a no death on live with three magicka players who know the arena. With stamina it's a completely different thing. That's (if I understood it right) the main point of these changes.

Ollowaiin2

Stopped reading at "shields are caped to 40% life". I got emperor back, when there where unpopulated campagnes like most of the players. My favourite class, mag sorc, was nerfed like 5 times. For example shield duration reduced, and strenght of shields 50% in campagnes. Since everybody got high pvp rank by flipping outposts @double ap WE, there is no point for pvp, because high ranks don't mean anything. The gold/h by AP farming is bad anyways, most people trade/farm stuff... The hole thing was broken for years and abused by players, but no one cared..

ruikkarikun

Masel92 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Masel92

What does the shield cap solve actually, other than screwing over PvE? You’re correct that it won’t affect players who didn’t shield stack in PvP in the first place, especially in noCP. No, for PvP the real issue is that resistances will not balance out with crits if you run LA, and changing your build to become more tanky either results in damage being even lower or in sustain issues that are even worse than on live.

Without changes to the toolkit I can play a Sorc tank in PvP. Any other class is better for this though.

The point of the reduction was pve for that matter. Shields gave light armor users basically a second health bar in demand, and allowed you to absorb a lot more damage than a stamina build could, and survive things a stamina build could not without a healer.

Pve content became fairly easy due to the high dps and cp and you dont see healers in four man content. Take dsa for example, it's fairly easy to do a no death on live with three magicka players who know the arena. With stamina it's a completely different thing. That's (if I understood it right) the main point of these changes.

Your main class is nightblade?
I took my stamina DD and did pledges for week, and it was tank + 3 STAMINA dd setup. We did all HH, because farmed undaunted points.
So 16k hp stamina dd with no investing to any defence like you want to make sorc.
So tell me why I need healer still for 4 man dungeon?

Also why you don't tell truth? Can you show me video where sorcs on LIVE facerolling any trial or dungeon? Because only magicka NIGHTBLADE DOING THAT. And gg making dd weaker, accordng to that in any games count of players who play dd are more then other, nice nice. You realy think someone going to heal any pledge? (I'm not talking about dungeon finder)

Krymzonbladez

Still don't get why, ALL light armor classes have to shield stack now to survive at all. Fraggin' ridiculous. I want to see all these people who thought all these ridiculous changes were good actually play with these changes. Not everyone is cp780, not everyone is gonna have 42k magicka and 24k hp, I'm still not even sure how you do that without using all tristat runes on all my gear and still being able to meet dps requirements. shielding through mechanics, means you aren't dpsing, so how was that even an issue? The issue was being able to out dps the mechanics of the content, or having to to survive the content to begin with because dungeon and fight designers just go insane with mechanics that you have to do perfectly or wipe or have to meet a dps requirement or wipe. The issue was never the ability to survive these things, the issue was having to survive these things. One hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing essentially. As of right now I'm glad my main isn't a Sorc but it doesn't bode well for any magicka light armor class. You're main dps is gonna be either a buttload of magblades or stamblades and nothing else. Bow gankers are gonna have an even better field day ruining any fun that there was in cyrodiil that they hadn't ruined already. Whomever is for these changes and thought they were a good idea needs to be fired because they obviously haven't a clue what they are talking about and never have.

Mannix1958

Syiccal wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

So why cant they give one morph the 3rd bar and the other morph can have the new effect? You people are so selfish.. You say its actually useful? In pvp? And good for a boss which means pve? Oh thats awesome. But im on a stam sorc. Which means its now completely useless to me. And my class, that was already at the bottom and working with very little, now has 5 things less to work with.

In fairness every single player in this game has to make do with 2 bars and limited space why should sorc get a 3rd bar just becuase they have abilities they like to use.
Everyone else has to make a sacrifice and choose an ability over another as the luxury of a third bar is non existant

And other classes have to double slot how many things? Pets have to be or they disappear. Armaments or the bonuses apply to one bar. And the new change has many thinking they'll have to stack shields even if their build did not prior.

Bevik

Any other meeting this year?

radarsu

Skwor wrote: »

My take away, once again Templars are an afterthought and poorly represented.

Feel the same.

Masel

radarsu wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

My take away, once again Templars are an afterthought and poorly represented.

Feel the same.

Templars got great changes this patch, what exactly is your complain?

radarsu

@Masel92

Templars in PvE gonna be much, much better. Maybe even dominant. I generally love the changes and long live the ZOS for working on them! But I don't care about PvE and in PvP I think not much is going to change, that's my complain. MagPlar will still be clunky, non-mobile, completely without a good burst and easy to kill (forced to build very, very tanky to not be). The changes are going in very good direction. And I am sure it will be a bit better than it is now, but... just a bit. Because...

A lot of good changes will get denied due to Dawnbreaker meta and evasion change (that I really like though). MagPlars situation isn't going to change as much as it was intended by other changes, because AoE is huge part of Templar and most of players will have now good defenses against that type of damage. I would love to believe that Dark Flare or Radiant Destruction will become a thing, but there are too much stones, stairs and hiding behind obstacles in PvP, so they won't.

Currently when you have a party of 3 MagPlars in BattleGround... You simply don't stand a chance. Usually score is like 500, 450, 60 (magplar team). Best MagPlar I've ever seen so far on BGs managed to do 1.2 mln damage, while other classes I've seen dealing ~3.6 mln.

After patch I predict best MagPlars will do maybe 1.6-1.8 mln, just 2x less than other classes (instead 3x) - good, but far from perfect.

I think that complete lack of any mobility skill for templar is main issue that should be addresed. Other classes teleport, gain immortality through shields, jump from place to place instantly or gain major expedition for a decent amount of time and we have... literally nothing. If you are stronger (and that's really rare on MagPlar) - you cannot kill enemy because they are always too fast or have great escape mechanisms (MageLight isn't really working on Nightblades plus it's expensive, sorcs just teleport out, dragonknights run away easiely with their tankiness). If you are weaker - you can never escape the enemy, because they are always too fast. MagPlar only option is a vampire Ellusive Mist for a price of taking +20% damage from dawnbreaker and getting rekt by flame Dragonknights. We have to make huge sacrifices for things other classes just have included. And it's just escape-mechanism, not good for a chase-mechanism, so you still need speed potions and swift jewellery if you ever wanna get a kill.

Possibly something little, like few seconds of major expedition after using Focused Charge (for chasing) and/or Sun Shield (for escaping) would fix the problem while keeping templar least-mobile-class status.

Masel

radarsu wrote: »

@Masel92

Templars in PvE gonna be much, much better. Maybe even dominant. I generally love the changes and long live the ZOS for working on them! But I don't care about PvE and in PvP I think not much is going to change, that's my complain. MagPlar will still be clunky, non-mobile, completely without a good burst and easy to kill (forced to build very, very tanky to not be). The changes are going in very good direction. And I am sure it will be a bit better than it is now, but... just a bit. Because...

A lot of good changes will get denied due to Dawnbreaker meta and evasion change (that I really like though). MagPlars situation isn't going to change as much as it was intended by other changes, because AoE is huge part of Templar and most of players will have now good defenses against that type of damage. I would love to believe that Dark Flare or Radiant Destruction will become a thing, but there are too much stones, stairs and hiding behind obstacles in PvP, so they won't.

Currently when you have a party of 3 MagPlars in BattleGround... You simply don't stand a chance. Usually score is like 500, 450, 60 (magplar team). Best MagPlar I've ever seen so far on BGs managed to do 1.2 mln damage, while other classes I've seen dealing ~3.6 mln.

After patch I predict best MagPlars will do maybe 1.6-1.8 mln, just 2x less than other classes (instead 3x) - good, but far from perfect.

I think that complete lack of any mobility skill for templar is main issue that should be addresed. Other classes teleport, gain immortality through shields, jump from place to place instantly or gain major expedition for a decent amount of time and we have... literally nothing. If you are stronger (and that's really rare on MagPlar) - you cannot kill enemy because they are always too fast or have great escape mechanisms (MageLight isn't really working on Nightblades plus it's expensive, sorcs just teleport out, dragonknights run away easiely with their tankiness). If you are weaker - you can never escape the enemy, because they are always too fast. MagPlar only option is a vampire Ellusive Mist for a price of taking +20% damage from dawnbreaker and getting rekt by flame Dragonknights. We have to make huge sacrifices for things other classes just have included. And it's just escape-mechanism, not good for a chase-mechanism, so you still need speed potions and swift jewellery if you ever wanna get a kill.

Possibly something little, like few seconds of major expedition after using Focused Charge (for chasing) and/or Sun Shield (for escaping) would fix the problem while keeping templar least-mobile-class status.

The movement changes cater very much to templars and dks because they weren't really designed for the mobile playstyle anyway and they're pretty good at turtling.

But I agree that some templar skills could use improvements, notably charge and sun shield. On my stamplar I use rangers gait which let's me ignore pretty much all snares. There's no magicka equivalent of this set, so something besides purge could help.

radarsu

Masel92 wrote: »

The movement changes cater very much to templars and dks because they weren't really designed for the mobile playstyle anyway and they're pretty good at turtling.

But I agree that some templar skills could use improvements, notably charge and sun shield. On my stamplar I use rangers gait which let's me ignore pretty much all snares. There's no magicka equivalent of this set, so something besides purge could help.

Without expedition or any speed buffs MagPlar is still not going to be able to catch and finish anyone. Only way to catch up at someones back is spamming Focused Charge... And dealing 2k dmg (1k after mitigation) for 3k magicka. Not a good deal. You can't execute a guy like that. And your Radiant Destruction will not work because of obstacles (seriously, channeled execute skill is really bad combination, it's equivalent to a heal "restore 5000 health after 10 seconds"; faster 1st tick could help though). Slow execute skill like Radiant Descrution very often means enemy will heal up from 10% to 50% and your execute skill is no longer working.

My second character is Dragonknight and I feel that "generally considered low-mobility DK" is 10x more mobile than my templar thanks to Major Expedition.

I think that it's the MagPlar who will be forced to use less-effective swift jewellery and speed potions while other classes will just give up the speed for more damage (because they still have enough speed from skills).

Templars should not be too mobile, but they horribly need just anything in this area or their gameplay will never feel as good as other classes. No matter how strong you are. You can't execute players. You can't escape players. That's not fun. It feels much better to be weaker and have those 2 features.

I feel like if the mobility issue would be addressed, the class would be "complete".

Tornaad

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Champion Points
While not a update 20 specific concern, we spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Possible change to the champion point system. Turn it into something that will allow for grater customization to a class.
For example a Nightblade would have different champion point options than a Warden.
The champion points would allow for each class to tailor every skill (but class and non class skills) to have a unique flavor to its use that is customized by the use of champion points.

John_Falstaff

@Zuboko , I see a space for introducing further imbalance in that idea. I mean, of course, as always, nightblades will receive most boring and useless and least dynamic and fun CP options in the game, right? ^^

Tornaad

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Zuboko , I see a space for introducing further imbalance in that idea. I mean, of course, as always, nightblades will receive most boring and useless and least dynamic and fun CP options in the game, right? ^^

@John_Falstaff Way to be positive.
Is there a possibility for imbalance? Simple answer is yes. There will always be possibilities for that happening. That being said, it is amply evident that the game is finding its groove and thus is (despite what the neigh sayers might try to convince you of) getting better. Yes, there are changes to the game that many people do not like, but that is the nature of change. People go back to areas that flood out every few years, because they don't like change more than they don't like having their homes flooded out.

If we look for what might go wrong we will create what we are looking for.

Here is what I see, imagine having the possibility to have your abilities with the bow harmonize with your Nightblade abilities. Let me make one up right now.
...
Imagine Snipe working with Mark Target and Teleport Strike. First you mark the target and then you perform a Teleport Strike through your Snipe taking you to the opposite side of your foe. Yes I know that sounds powerful. I just barely through of it.
…
Here is another possibility I thought of as I was writing up the previous.
Add some cosmetic effects with the Champion Point customizations
Example, as you fear your opponent and then do more and more damage to them you gain a demonic appearance to go along with the fear and a boost to its effects at the same time.

The possibilities are endless, and if they build out a separate champion point system for each class that affects every skill in the game then suddenly it will be a lot harder to have builds feel the same. That could also, if done properly, create a situation where depending on how you apply your champion points will determine what equipment you get.

For example
If part of your customization requires a certain armor, or weapon trait to be equipped then that will change your build. Or if the customization required a specific set and even a specific number of pieces of that set, say 3 instead of 5 or 7 instead of 5, then that again would change your build.

It is also possible that they could add a customization option that might require you to go without certain pieces of equipment. Say a spirit bow of sorts, that makes it so you have to not equip a bow but generate one instead. These are all possibilities they could throw in with the kind of change I am talking about with the change I am suggesting.

The possibilities are virtually endless for what they could add for customization. No, this would not likely stop the power creep, but it would make it so that the it would only add more diversity to the game if it did continue which is a trade off I think a lot of people could happily live with.

John_Falstaff

@Zuboko , I'm sorry; I was being slightly sarcastic with my remark about NB abilities. I main a stamina DK, that explains why it's very difficult for me to be positive as of late. ^^

I definitely see your point, and I wholeheartedly would welcome it - if only the company that's doing it had a good track record of managing combat balance well. There are endless ways of making each class unique and versatile and more fun to play. But as things stand now, I simply fear that it would break little still unbroken and even firmer shoehorn classes into their niches (or lack thereof). The possibilities are endless, but that also means that it'll be all the more difficult for ZOS to see all those special corner cases and combinations that will push certain classes and specs far ahead - and as a result, we'll see all the more nerf bombardments, more feverish meta swings, more tears with each patch. The combat team already struggles with balance too hard as it is, I'm simply not sure that added complexity is what game needs at this point. If you proposed it at the moment when game was balanced and there wasn't any glaring issues? I'd have said - great idea, should introduce it right this moment.