Lets talk about one of the dumbest features added back to this game - Forward Camps

Xsorus

I know, there are going to be some people who come in here and say "Without them this is Horse simulator online!!!" ...Which i say false, without them..This is Large Scale PvP online...and in that game if you die...You might have to ride back to the fight if you can't get a res..Which is how its suppose to work...you want to instantly get back into the fight...play BGs or run around in IC.

Forward Camps themselves are basically an instant aoe rez...available to everyone every 5 minutes. You fight a Zerg Guild and you kill 23 out of 24 people..Guess what..They all get Rezzed to full health and no penalty what so ever.

You have things like this that were added to previous games like DAOC (there ya go Joy) and quickly removed because they learned the same thing...that AOE rez is powerful..and you shouldn't give it to everyone in a Zerg.

Chori

Ermmm nah

WaltherCarraway

Back when the camp range was lot bigger than now...

geonsocal

different objectives in cyrodiil...sometimes the most important objective - enjoy a good fight...

I'm glad for forward camps...

it's also fun to find enemy camps and burn them...

umagon

I liked when they turned the mobile spawn closets off. The spawn closet’s timer is too short and ap cost too low. It needs a 30min cooldown after use and needs to cost at least 80k ap. With the new choke point controls coming next patch I foresee players just using the mobile spawn closets to stay behind enemy lines. What is the point to territorial control mechanisms when hostile players can respawn in your territory indefinitely?

VaranisArano

Removing forward camps punishes defenders far more than it does attackers and removes almost all incentive to aggressively defend keeps once they are flagged. If by dying you knew you couldn't get back to the keep you were defending, the only logical move is to hole up in the inner and pour oils.

Joy_Division

Forward Camps are one of the few things ZOS actually improved and got right.

Maryal

Joy_Division wrote: »

Forward Camps are one of the few things ZOS actually improved and got right.

Except for the word "few," I agree.

oXI_Viper_IXo

The only thing more satisfying than wiping a large group is doing it twice in a row. Forward camps don't often change the outcome of the battle, but they do help promote a more active fight where people will jump down off the walls instead of turtling up inside a keep and being completely defensive. The timer, large AP cost, and burnability helps keep them in check as well.

caeliusstarbreaker

Beards weird

GreenSoup2HoT

I dont mind forward camps that much but i think they need to adjust the health or how burning camps works. Kinda lame that burning it just stops spawning. Like why cant i spawn on a burning camp and try to defend so its not destroyed?

SouthernSoldjer

Yeah idk why this is a thread some of us remember when there was no camps and had to ride 20 minutes to every keep. The only time they were op is when there was no timer

Nermy

I remember the original camps... Could spawn from anywhere.

Anyway, what about the new recall stones? I suppose you don't approve of those either?

Xsorus

Nermy wrote: »

I remember the original camps... Could spawn from anywhere.

Anyway, what about the new recall stones? I suppose you don't approve of those either?

do they instant res a lot of people and are common?

leeux

I do think the zone of exclusion around keeps should be a bit bigger in order to avoid the constant stream of respawns during attacks... if you wipe while you're attacking, there should not be second chances, IMHO.

EDIT: Clarification, I mean... the zone of exclusion to placing your FC near an enemy keep.

frozywozy

I believe that forward camps have a place in the game, as long as they are used offensively. We should not be able to deploy forward camps inside the range of a flagged objective. that does not make any sense. Camps should be place outside of the range of any objective by both attackers and defenders.

VaranisArano

Xsorus wrote: »

Nermy wrote: »

I remember the original camps... Could spawn from anywhere.

Anyway, what about the new recall stones? I suppose you don't approve of those either?

do they instant res a lot of people and are common?

They allow people to Insta-port to any keep that's not flagged, like a blood port without dying. If you PVP a lot, yeah, they're pretty easy to acquire.

Xsorus

VaranisArano wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Nermy wrote: »

I remember the original camps... Could spawn from anywhere.

Anyway, what about the new recall stones? I suppose you don't approve of those either?

do they instant res a lot of people and are common?

They allow people to Insta-port to any keep that's not flagged, like a blood port without dying. If you PVP a lot, yeah, they're pretty easy to acquire.

So not the same

Gotcha

montiferus

From a small scale perspective I have found forward camps overall to be a good thing. We run 3-5 people so if someone goes down its really hard to get off a res when fighting outnumbered. What is quite a bit more viable though is getting someone to peel off from our group and get a camp up to reset the fight.

Yes it does on occassion help the opposition. In fact it happened to us last night where we nearly wiped an entire raid and they all took the camp and reset the fight. That said I'd still prefer to have forward camps in the game.

DeadlyRecluse

Forward camps in their current iteration are pretty great. It makes defending things much more enjoyable if you get one "camp life" to push out and actually fight rather than having to be super conservative until the keep is breached. It helps make it worth the time to ride a small group deep into enemy territory--not much point if one wipe and a few salty body campers shuts the whole thing down.

In terms of the big contested fights where it's respawning a zerg...

It's a 5 minute cooldown. Kill them again, problem solved.

leepalmer95

Xsorus wrote: »

I know, there are going to be some people who come in here and say "Without them this is Horse simulator online!!!" ...Which i say false, without them..This is Large Scale PvP online...and in that game if you die...You might have to ride back to the fight if you can't get a res..Which is how its suppose to work...you want to instantly get back into the fight...play BGs or run around in IC.

Forward Camps themselves are basically an instant aoe rez...available to everyone every 5 minutes. You fight a Zerg Guild and you kill 23 out of 24 people..Guess what..They all get Rezzed to full health and no penalty what so ever.

You have things like this that were added to previous games like DAOC (there ya go Joy) and quickly removed because they learned the same thing...that AOE rez is powerful..and you shouldn't give it to everyone in a Zerg.

I agree they kind of negate the point of killing a group.

Previously you used to flag keeps and if anyone of the defending made a mistake and died in enemy lines they had to ride back which actually have attackers number advantage etc..

Now everyone just respawns.

You wipe a group? Someone will put a camp up and it's pointless.

Camps is just another tool that removes consequences from the game.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

I disagree that they got camps right.

For me I'd like to see camps be implemented in the following way:

1. No radius in which to res, if you see a camp on the other side of the map you can take it. This spread out fights and allowed for quick movement around cyro.
2. Offensive camps should be placed further away from keeps. Allowing for a push by defenders rather than instant reinforcements.
3. When you res at a camp you should have low resources not full resources. if you want full resources you should have to res at a structure (keep etc).
4. Longer 'placement' time. Camps are too easily placed during combat. It should be at least a 5s cast imo. (Even if I benefit from being able to place it doesn't mean I should). To balance this is should appear on the map quicker once placed. It seems to vary from between 3s and 10s sometimes likely when lag is involved.
5. There should be a much smaller cap on the number of players who can respawn at a camp (10 rather than 20) without it being manually repaired. This would mean that if your whole group but 1 wipes you can't just all insta res on a camp without at least placing another down.
6. General for all siege - allow players to be interrupted regardless of their immovable status both repairing and burning.

thankyourat

I think forward camps are pretty good for everything but solo players. The problem solo players face with forward camps is that they allow groups to stick closer together which pretty much makes Transit routes empty or either a big Zerg is running through, but once the Zerg past it's a ghost town. Before when there were no forward camps it was harder for groups to move together. Players would die and have to run back to the keep meaning there were a lot more small scrimmages in open fields and that's what's missing from eso right now. It's basically just 60v60 keep fights right now. And even though forward camps are popular I feel this won't change until they are removed

zyk

There are probably a lot of current players who didn't play during the period when Forward Camps were removed.
Forward Camps were part of the game at launch and removed during 1.5 until 2.3 -- approximately 15 months off the top of my head.

The removal of camps changed gameplay in countless ways. In particular, players were forced to make intelligent choices about engagements. Objective fights didn't drag on and victories were decisive.

In today's game, groups aren't punished for bad decisions like they were then. Running deep in enemy territory took much more skill and focus. There was less of an 'omglol' mentality when making mistakes. Groups couldn't just kite indefinitely by dropping camps gratuitously. Good groups couldn't afford to carry bad players as easily.

IMO, players were less concentrated without FCs for multiple reasons. A defeated player or group was forced to respawn at the nearest unflagged friendly objective. From there, they may have chosen to fight somewhere else.

Tick quagmires were rare. In today's game, objective fights drag on for so long that very large dticks often accumulate. Tick quagmires feed themselves by drawing players from across the map, increasing lag for everyone. Some groups simply can't resist joining an already painfully laggy fight because of this.

The best part of the game without FCs were the lanes connecting a flagged objective to the closest respawn objectives because they were always alive with activity. These were ideal locations for solo players and small groups to fight.

Xsorus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I know, there are going to be some people who come in here and say "Without them this is Horse simulator online!!!" ...Which i say false, without them..This is Large Scale PvP online...and in that game if you die...You might have to ride back to the fight if you can't get a res..Which is how its suppose to work...you want to instantly get back into the fight...play BGs or run around in IC.

Forward Camps themselves are basically an instant aoe rez...available to everyone every 5 minutes. You fight a Zerg Guild and you kill 23 out of 24 people..Guess what..They all get Rezzed to full health and no penalty what so ever.

You have things like this that were added to previous games like DAOC (there ya go Joy) and quickly removed because they learned the same thing...that AOE rez is powerful..and you shouldn't give it to everyone in a Zerg.

I agree they kind of negate the point of killing a group.

Previously you used to flag keeps and if anyone of the defending made a mistake and died in enemy lines they had to ride back which actually have attackers number advantage etc..

Now everyone just respawns.

You wipe a group? Someone will put a camp up and it's pointless.

Camps is just another tool that removes consequences from the game.

correct

Xsorus

zyk wrote: »

There are probably a lot of current players who didn't play during the period when Forward Camps were removed.
Forward Camps were part of the game at launch and removed during 1.5 until 2.3 -- approximately 15 months off the top of my head.

The removal of camps changed gameplay in countless ways. In particular, players were forced to make intelligent choices about engagements. Objective fights didn't drag on and victories were decisive.

In today's game, groups aren't punished for bad decisions like they were then. Running deep in enemy territory took much more skill and focus. There was less of an 'omglol' mentality when making mistakes. Groups couldn't just kite indefinitely by dropping camps gratuitously. Good groups couldn't afford to carry bad players as easily.

IMO, players were less concentrated without FCs for multiple reasons. A defeated player or group was forced to respawn at the nearest unflagged friendly objective. From there, they may have chosen to fight somewhere else.

Tick quagmires were rare. In today's game, objective fights drag on for so long that very large dticks often accumulate. Tick quagmires feed themselves by drawing players from across the map, increasing lag for everyone. Some groups simply can't resist joining an already painfully laggy fight because of this.

The best part of the game without FCs were the lanes connecting a flagged objective to the closest respawn objectives because they were always alive with activity. These were ideal locations for solo players and small groups to fight.

also correct; But it was a "horse simulator" so it was changed *grin*.

frozywozy

thankyourat wrote: »

Players would die and have to run back to the keep meaning there were a lot more small scrimmages in open fields and that's what's missing from eso right now. It's basically just 60v60 keep fights right now. And even though forward camps are popular I feel this won't change until they are removed

Have you played when forward camps were removed? The most typical scenario happening on a daily basis would be a huge crossword on top of Alessia Bridge, Chal milegate and sometimes Nikel milegate. Stale fights happening for hours with a side winning from time to time and pushing to the next objective until they get wiped for being too far away from the spawn.

I am not sure exactly where the removal of forward camps is supposed to favor small scrimmages in open fields. Unless what you mean by that is to gank people riding back to the bridge or milegates? Could you elaborate more?

zyk wrote: »

There are probably a lot of current players who didn't play during the period when Forward Camps were removed.

In today's game, groups aren't punished for bad decisions like they were then. Running deep in enemy territory took much more skill and focus. There was less of an 'omglol' mentality when making mistakes. Groups couldn't just kite indefinitely by dropping camps gratuitously. Good groups couldn't afford to carry bad players as easily.

Without forward camps, we would barely see anybody taking the decision to push deep in enemy territory to spread out the fight. Only on super rare occasions and from very specific groups we would see such events happening.

With offensive camps, it allows and encourages people to fight at different places, out of the emp ring.

I disagree entirely about groups not being punished enough when they do an effort to fight by themselves far away from their faction and any spawn point other than a camp. The problem is when people are able sneak camps while defending a keep, avoiding all kind of fights and running straight inside the inner postern to reinforce. A "Forward camp" used defensively. This tactic allows the fight to last forever and does not punish anybody resing at the camp. Those people can just safely wait inside with a massive amount of sieges until they are off cooldown to try another mindless push outside.

thankyourat

frozywozy wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Players would die and have to run back to the keep meaning there were a lot more small scrimmages in open fields and that's what's missing from eso right now. It's basically just 60v60 keep fights right now. And even though forward camps are popular I feel this won't change until they are removed

Have you played when forward camps were removed? The most typical scenario happening on a daily basis would be a huge crossword on top of Alessia Bridge, Chal milegate and sometimes Nikel milegate. Stale fights happening for hours with a side winning from time to time and pushing to the next objective until they get wiped for being too far away from the spawn.

I am not sure exactly where the removal of forward camps is supposed to favor small scrimmages in open fields. Unless what you mean by that is to gank people riding back to the bridge or milegates? Could you elaborate more?

zyk wrote: »

There are probably a lot of current players who didn't play during the period when Forward Camps were removed.

In today's game, groups aren't punished for bad decisions like they were then. Running deep in enemy territory took much more skill and focus. There was less of an 'omglol' mentality when making mistakes. Groups couldn't just kite indefinitely by dropping camps gratuitously. Good groups couldn't afford to carry bad players as easily.

Without forward camps, we would barely see anybody taking the decision to push deep in enemy territory to spread out the fight. Only on super rare occasions and from very specific groups we would see such events happening.

With offensive camps, it allows and encourages people to fight at different places, out of the emp ring.

I disagree entirely about groups not being punished enough when they do an effort to fight by themselves far away from their faction and any spawn point other than a camp. The problem is when people are able sneak camps while defending a keep, avoiding all kind of fights and running straight inside the inner postern to reinforce. A "Forward camp" used defensively. This tactic allows the fight to last forever and does not punish anybody resing at the camp. Those people can just safely wait inside with a massive amount of sieges until they are off cooldown to try another mindless push outside.

I played when forward camps were removed and there were a lot more fights in the fields between keeps. It was great for solo players like myself. I could stand in the open field while people who died run back to the keep and actually get some good 1vXs where as now you either get a whole Zerg running to a keep or no one at all. So it's either I get a fight that's impossible for me to win because of game mechanics or I fight no one. And it's not necessarily ganking because I'm not one shotting players from stealth but I am talking about killing players that died and are running back to the fight. Right now that is not existent because of forward camps.

idk

OP is glossing over the changes from the original design of the camps and just focusing on what he does not like.

That 5 minute lockout is a fairly long time. People end up riding back into battle if they get killed during that lockout.

The range is so much shorter and cannot even begin to be used like they used to. Often when someone dies on opposite side of the keep from the camp they hare out of range.,

So, in the end, with the current design of forward camps Cyrodiil is Large Scale PvP online. Very much so.

zyk

frozywozy wrote: »

Without forward camps, we would barely see anybody taking the decision to push deep in enemy territory to spread out the fight. Only on super rare occasions and from very specific groups we would see such events happening.

We know that's not true because we played without Forward Camps for more than a year and groups of all sizes pushed as deep as they do today. Except then, they did so for a fight rather than an otick. 2.2 had a far more active map than 4.1 does.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

zyk wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Without forward camps, we would barely see anybody taking the decision to push deep in enemy territory to spread out the fight. Only on super rare occasions and from very specific groups we would see such events happening.

We know that's not true because we played without Forward Camps for more than a year and groups of all sizes pushed as deep as they do today. Except then, they did so for a fight rather than an otick. 2.2 had a far more active map than 4.1 does.

I disagree. Remember 2.2 had a far higher population than now which is why the map seems less active.
Additionally it's far more difficult for groups to stay alive in the current patch then previously. Which is why you see less and less groups able let alone willing to take a back keep and fight (not counting all those who have quit).

Also there will always be groups who push further into enemy territory but before camp removal there were fights all over the map. As soon as they were removed it became bridge wars online.