Calmly getting rid of classes in eso

Rungar

Step 1: Stop making new classes
Step 2: Change all class based passives to be applicable to their corresponding skill lines only
Step 3: Add in new skill oppositional lines with passives available to everyone such as mental and physical conditioning that compensate for losses from above
Step 4: Slowly add in sub class system one skill line per class at a time to allow existing players to take skill lines from other classes at a substantial penalty.
Step 5: Add in an affinity system where similar skills reduce the penalty(i.e templars with sun fire skills using ardent flame) and dissimilar skills increase the penalty (templars with heailng using daedric magic).
Step 6: manage the penalties on a skill line opposition basis so you can reduce the penalty of one skill line by NOT investing in a class skill line.

win

Krayl

Yes! completely change the game immediately.

win.

Rungar

not unprecedented for this game, ahem, One Tamriel, vr levels overhaul, cp overhaul.....

One Tamriel was a major win. This would be too.

it certainly doesnt stop anyone from sticking to their archetype but does allow much greater customization.

i would have the subclass system unlocked at 50 for the first set of skill lines, 300cp for the second set and 600cp for the third set of lines.

you dont want an awesome game like this to stagnate and this is very cheap content.

IAVITNI

LOL I didn't read a single post, not even the OP. The title made me choke on my soup.

Although the homogenization of classes is very interesting. I find it funny as to why they think homogenization of classes is possible at all.

Krayl

Rungar wrote: »

not unprecedented for this game, ahem, One Tamriel, vr levels overhaul, cp overhaul.....

One Tamriel was a major win. This would be too.

it certainly doesnt stop anyone from sticking to their archetype but does allow much greater customization.

i would have the subclass system unlocked at 50 for the first set of skill lines, 300cp for the second set and 600cp for the third set of lines.

you dont want an awesome game like this to stagnate and this is very cheap content.

sort of my point. They overhauled the game once to make it sustainable. they certainly are not going to do it again at this stage in the game's lifespan when they are actively moving forward with the current system.

MerlinPendragon

Members of this forum need to stop trying to make every class have everything. Sorry, but some classes should Excel where others dont and vice versa. Every class should have strengths and weaknesses.

DarcyMardin

I like different classes. It’s already kinda boring that everybody in PVE slots most of the same skills, with the major variation depending on whether they are stamina or magicka.

Gilvoth

i love this idea, we have been asking for morrowind type "no classes" for a long time, even in beta we were asking for it.
i hope eso dev's remove classes from eso.

Gnortranermara

I've been playing completely Classless as a personal challenge and experiment for a while now. There's nothing in any of the class skill lines that is "required" to build a functional character for any of the roles of DPS (magicka or stamina), tank, or healer. It's all just superfluous fluff that acts as a replacement for the Weapon/Guild/etc skills that a Classless character would slot.

IMO, this game would be a million times better if all class skill lines were simply eliminated and rolled into a comprehensive Spellbook system based on the school of magic (with or without Spellcrafting) accessible to all characters. The only problem is that I have zero confidence in the current combat dev team to pull something like this off. They inherited the current system from previous developers and have "balanced" it based on inexplicable whims and bro math for years. They've actually admitted making balance decisions based on the prevalence of skills used by players, a pathetic proxy measurement that any real mathematically literate professional would be embarrassed to get caught using.

So yeah, change is needed, but don't count on these folks to deliver it - and fear the results if they do.

Tonturri

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I've been playing completely Classless as a personal challenge and experiment for a while now. There's nothing in any of the class skill lines that is "required" to build a functional character for any of the roles of DPS (magicka or stamina), tank, or healer. It's all just superfluous fluff that acts a replacement for the non-class skills that a Classless character would slot.

IMO, this game would be a million times better if all class skill lines were simply eliminated and rolled into a comprehensive Spellbook system based on the school of magic (with or without Spellcrafting) accessible to all characters. The only problem is that I have zero confidence in the current combat dev team to pull something like this off. They inherited the current system from previous developers and have "balanced" it based on inexplicable whims and bro math for years. They've actually admitted making balance decisions based on the prevalence of skills used by players, a pathetic proxy measurement that any real mathematically literate professional would be embarrassed to get caught using.

So yeah, change is needed, but don't count on these folks to deliver it - and fear the results if they do.

I mean. Look at what we got now. A horrid lack of balance that likely isn't going to be changing anytime soon and a crapton of skills that are blatant ripoffs of other skills. Classes that are growing more homogenized by the patch.

Personally, I find things not only lacking balance-wise, but lacking fun. I know I'd have much more fun screwing around with this or that random skill combination than I do trying to slog my way through these abominations they currently call sorc, nightblade, templar, etc. It really feels like ZOS is nerfing and homogenizing classes like they're still intending to balance those classes/skills/whatever on a competitive level...but they continue to fail to do so. I wish they'd just own up to it.

Do they really have anything to lose at this point that wouldn't be outweighed by the benefit of players suddenly being able to REALLY make whatever crazy setup they want and goof around on it? I'm all for the spellbook thingy at this point. I do think the pros outweight the cons.

Krayl

The pros may outweigh the cons but you're talking about completely overhauling the entire game. EVERYTHING would need to be tested and retested. Everything. The amount of bugs and balance issues created would be unpredictable at best. At worst, the game simply be completely broken. You're talking about the company investing a significant amount of money into fundamentally rebuilding the entire game from the ground up, and if you don't understand WHY that is the case then you don't understand how this whole game creation thing works. You don't just pop in an editor and tool around with a few things and decide 'awww heck lets just try this!'. The entire system of buffs, debuffs, skills, traits, armor sets...everything stat wise in the game was built with the current setup in mind.

I guarantee you this will never, ever happen. If this were going to happen it would have happened with one tamriel. they wouldn't have gone through that painstaking process just to blow it all up and do it all over again. It's a moot conversation, and I'm the type of person that would love to see more open-ended creation.

This idea that this 'freedom' would entice new builds is wrong. It will just narrow the current meta builds down even further into builds of all the best, maximized skills.

Would it be great for the casual player? sure. Is the casual player the one likely spending money on subscriptions, crown store items, respecs, etc? Nope.

IZZEFlameLash

If only. But very unlikely. Very.

TheNightflame

This game is this game because it's this game: if it wasn't it wouldn't be. What's being described above is a different game.

Zamboo4u

TheNightflame wrote: »

This game is this game because it's this game: if it wasn't it wouldn't be. What's being described above is a different game.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

SHADOW2KK

TheNightflame wrote: »

This game is this game because it's this game: if it wasn't it wouldn't be. What's being described above is a different game.

Very deep...Very true...

Checkmath

heck what an idea....
would just lead to homogenization of all pve roles. there would be zero difference between the damage dealing classes, since you would just spec for the best skills there are. so doesnt matter what class, you will shoot spectral bows and lay down elemental blockade and liquid lightning. even stamina classes, which already feel pretty similar, just maybe one or two class skills separate them atm, will have zero differences after that. tanks all will spit some engulfing flames and have warden plus dks sustain together. healers will have the best aspects of wardens and templars combined. all would wear the same sets, same skills...heck this would be so fun (....not).
i didnt even start with pvp, where everyone will get away with cloak and extended ritual.
thx but no.

Runefang

Checkmath wrote: »

heck what an idea....
would just lead to homogenization of all pve roles. there would be zero difference between the damage dealing classes, since you would just spec for the best skills there are. so doesnt matter what class, you will shoot spectral bows and lay down elemental blockade and liquid lightning. even stamina classes, which already feel pretty similar, just maybe one or two class skills separate them atm, will have zero differences after that. tanks all will spit some engulfing flames and have warden plus dks sustain together. healers will have the best aspects of wardens and templars combined. all would wear the same sets, same skills...heck this would be so fun (....not).
i didnt even start with pvp, where everyone will get away with cloak and extended ritual.
thx but no.

Role homogenization is here already. My toons have all got virtually the same rotation:
Apply all dots
Apply all buffs if needed
Use spammable until dots fall off
Repeat

Aside from the few proc based skills (grim resolve, cfrags) and some execute skills it doesn't deviate. This makes all classes FEEL the same despite animation differences. For roleplayers animation differences might matter but that's about it.

Other MMOs have many classes with different feels:
Slow build up dot based
Low dps with high apm/dps burst windows
Pet management builds
A mix of dots and direct damage (esos only type)
Sequence based direct damage builds.

Checkmath

Runefang wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

heck what an idea....
would just lead to homogenization of all pve roles. there would be zero difference between the damage dealing classes, since you would just spec for the best skills there are. so doesnt matter what class, you will shoot spectral bows and lay down elemental blockade and liquid lightning. even stamina classes, which already feel pretty similar, just maybe one or two class skills separate them atm, will have zero differences after that. tanks all will spit some engulfing flames and have warden plus dks sustain together. healers will have the best aspects of wardens and templars combined. all would wear the same sets, same skills...heck this would be so fun (....not).
i didnt even start with pvp, where everyone will get away with cloak and extended ritual.
thx but no.

Role homogenization is here already. My toons have all got virtually the same rotation:
Apply all dots
Apply all buffs if needed
Use spammable until dots fall off
Repeat

Aside from the few proc based skills (grim resolve, cfrags) and some execute skills it doesn't deviate. This makes all classes FEEL the same despite animation differences. For roleplayers animation differences might matter but that's about it.

Other MMOs have many classes with different feels:
Slow build up dot based
Low dps with high apm/dps burst windows
Pet management builds
A mix of dots and direct damage (esos only type)
Sequence based direct damage builds.

right homogenization is already present to a certain degree, but such stuff like OP suggests, will break the game in a not pleasent way, because afterwards everyone plays the same. not only feeling the same, but being the same, since some skills are known for best dps and it would be just a stacking of the best skills onto your bar. same for healers and tanks. there would be zero diffence between classes, meanwhile atm we at least have differences in performances in different roles.

Septimus_Magna

It would certainly be interesting to combine 3 different skill classes but you’d lose a lot of class identity. Eventually everyone would just run similar skills in PVE because there would be an optimal combination for tanking, healing and dps.

PVP is where it gets really interesting, you could do a lot of crazy stuff. Everyone could spec into the same (strongest meta) combination so balance would technically be solved. Class diversity would be killed but there could be a lot more build diversity.

Rungar

You would still have tanks, healers and damage dealers. That's all that's needed.

i should of added that you could only have three class (core) lines active at any one time (like now) .

so you couldn't have it all as you would have to give up a line to get a different one. If you include the oppositional idea of dissimilar skills then it becomes a massive source of new gameplay trying to figure out all the possibilities.

a breath of fresh air really at pretty much no development cost as its just a permutation of whats already there.

The armor system system of this game is great because it allows all the combinations. This is just an extension of that.

FakeFox

Yeah...no?

DjMuscleboy02

If you wanna play world of Warcraft just go play world of Warcraft

Checkmath

Rungar wrote: »

You would still have tanks, healers and damage dealers. That's all that's needed.

i should of added that you could only have three class (core) lines active at any one time (like now) .

so you couldn't have it all as you would have to give up a line to get a different one. If you include the oppositional idea of dissimilar skills then it becomes a massive source of new gameplay trying to figure out all the possibilities.

a breath of fresh air really at pretty much no development cost as its just a permutation of whats already there.

The armor system system of this game is great because it allows all the combinations. This is just an extension of that.

so magicka dds all will have the assasination skill line for the best finisher dps wise and grim focus with spectral bow for free casts. additionally stormcall skilline for liquid lightning and passive execute, also a very string major sorcery buff with passive healing is provided. not sure about the third skilline yet, but as spammable you do not even have to choose a class skillline, since the best spammables are either from the psychic skillline or from the destruction staff (which is also needed for elemental blockade).

hm stamina dps would could choose ardent flame skillline for the best dot, otherwise there is not much getting from all classes. also assasination for execute and grim focus. additional maybe also stormcalling for passive executes. would just be a matter of testing, which skills provide the best damage. so over all damage dealers 2/3 skilllines would be the same, even skills are the same (much diversity).

healers take restoring light skillline from templars and green balance from wardens. much variety.

tanks just choose between dk and warden skilllines for the passive sustain and they are set to go (earthen heart, draconic power and green balance or ardent flame for engulfing flames or offhealing).

that above would describe pve, i dont see any variety or diversity in there, nor do is see any logic or fun behind that.

jcm2606

While Zenimax homogenising classes goes against it, class skill lines are balanced around the limited toolkit they have available. Doing things this way, you'd have to completely redesign basically all class skills, as you'd have too many stupidly powerful combinations available, as outlined above. In which case it just becomes a completely different game.

I say no. The time for doing something like this has long since gone.

Xvorg

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I've been playing completely Classless as a personal challenge and experiment for a while now. There's nothing in any of the class skill lines that is "required" to build a functional character for any of the roles of DPS (magicka or stamina), tank, or healer. It's all just superfluous fluff that acts as a replacement for the Weapon/Guild/etc skills that a Classless character would slot.

IMO, this game would be a million times better if all class skill lines were simply eliminated and rolled into a comprehensive Spellbook system based on the school of magic (with or without Spellcrafting) accessible to all characters. The only problem is that I have zero confidence in the current combat dev team to pull something like this off. They inherited the current system from previous developers and have "balanced" it based on inexplicable whims and bro math for years. They've actually admitted making balance decisions based on the prevalence of skills used by players, a pathetic proxy measurement that any real mathematically literate professional would be embarrassed to get caught using.

So yeah, change is needed, but don't count on these folks to deliver it - and fear the results if they do.

Thing is that everyone will be running NBs skills on PVP and PvE. I had a similar idea some years ago, but lately I've realized how stupid it is.

Classes have a function, that's making your brain work.

Xvorg

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

It would certainly be interesting to combine 3 different skill classes but you’d lose a lot of class identity. Eventually everyone would just run similar skills in PVE because there would be an optimal combination for tanking, healing and dps.

PVP is where it gets really interesting, you could do a lot of crazy stuff. Everyone could spec into the same (strongest meta) combination so balance would technically be solved. Class diversity would be killed but there could be a lot more build diversity.

Don't think there would be build diversity.

Let's see a standard magicka build bar:

1- Cloak
2- frags
3- surge
4- Merc resolve
5- Strife
U- Meteor

Cast surge followed by resolve, cloak, hard cast frags while invis, weave strife until you get assa will and proc frags, cloak again, fire assa will and frag proc. If the enemy survives, meteor.

huschdeguddzje

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Members of this forum need to stop trying to make every class have everything. Sorry, but some classes should Excel where others dont and vice versa. Every class should have strengths and weaknesses.

Or have no classes at all

Xvorg

Rungar wrote: »

You would still have tanks, healers and damage dealers. That's all that's needed.

i should of added that you could only have three class (core) lines active at any one time (like now) .

so you couldn't have it all as you would have to give up a line to get a different one. If you include the oppositional idea of dissimilar skills then it becomes a massive source of new gameplay trying to figure out all the possibilities.

a breath of fresh air really at pretty much no development cost as its just a permutation of whats already there.

The armor system system of this game is great because it allows all the combinations. This is just an extension of that.

No, there would be generic tanks, DD and healers. Tanks will jump into DK skills with the sustain of a NB and using Bolstering darkness as ulti. Healers will go for BoL + soul siphon as Ulti.

You will achieve what ZoS has wanted all this year in one single patch: to dumb down the game to a very basic version of Fortnite

CyberSkooma

Hell yes, enforce the meta even more than it is now!
This will lead to two classes....

Stam / Mag

Each with their own meta requirements. This idea sucks.

Apache_Kid

NO

JackAshes

I remember a game that did this it was called Champions Online.....It is so forgotten. This was its downfall. At least now we have a meta for each class and then Mag and Stam then role Tank, Healer, DPS in PVE with a mixture of all 3 in PVP. SO MUCH NO!!!! I propose the opposite more class diversity and flavor!