Altmer or Dunmer. Which culture is more "advanced"?

Ajaxandriel

I agree it can bring more depth on their lore if their advancement is moot.

I'd say there is still some 'hidden' background on the Altmer and Summerset.

Just as I was noticing here : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/413381/environments-of-summerset-and-where-are-the-snows-of-eton-nir#latest
- we know eventually that huge parts of the Eton Nir massif are still hidden - as seen on a game map - but also probably different from what is displayed in the current Chapter, since its Eternal Snows are confirmed.

Moreover, don't forget that their should have been huge Orreries in the sky of some major Altmeri cities. And we know they are still 'hidden', like the one in Firsthold that is 'stored somewhere'... and yet to be seen perhaps one day in ESO...

I think such room for mystery and future content is a major point: hope is not dead because Vvardenfell and Summerset were released.

Valpro

I feel like saying which one is more "advanced" is weird. Advancement is typically caused by the problems you face and since the dunmer and altmer face different problems、 they would advance in different areas. The old "which on is more -blank" always gets to me because it tends to try to simplify things that aren't done justice when thought of in the binary (group 1 or group 2) sense.

dazee

Not to mention the fact a talented breton sorcerer for instance could match a telvanni or altmer sorcerer in some situations. Not every member of a race is the same. To believe that someone is superior just becuase of their race is racist.

Tommy_The_Gun

psychotrip wrote: »

So what do you guys think? Who runs a more advanced society? The Altmer, or the Dunmer?

Both are pretty xenophobic & racist.. so um... none of them ?

VaranisArano

dazee wrote: »

Not to mention the fact a talented breton sorcerer for instance could match a telvanni or altmer sorcerer in some situations. Not every member of a race is the same. To believe that someone is superior just becuase of their race is racist.

No, but we would certainly be able to look at Wayrest and Shimmerene and say that the Altmer are far more advanced in terms of Architecture and City Planning. That's not a moral judgment there.

psychotrip

Waffennacht wrote: »

Altmer created crystal-like-law

I believe that was the aldmer, their ancestors. Not the altmer. As are most of their accomplishments it seems

psychotrip

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

LickingHistSap wrote: »

Neither. No race in Tamriel is any more advanced than any other, with the exception of the races that have been denied opportunities to advance, like Goblins, Minotaurs, or to a much lesser extent, Argonians.

Dunmer aren't any more advanced than any of the other races, they just managed to have 3 people stumble into godhood thanks to the lanky nerd of their group reverse engineering what the Dwemer did to the Heart of Lorkhan. As a whole, Dunmeri civilization hasn't done anything that is impossible for any other civilization on Tamriel to do under the right circumstances. Creating houses out of carpaces and mushrooms is interesting, but it's not something impossible for another civilization to do had they had giant insects or mushrooms where they lived.

(Yes, individuals like Divayth Fyr exist, but so do people like Shalidor, Vanus Galerion, and Zurin Arctus)

Similarly, Altmer aren't more advanced than any other race in Tamriel, they're just obsessed with tradition. Summerset is meant to be a perfect, idealized society, but they aren't really any more advanced than any other society in Tamriel. The Sapiarchs don't teach anything that isn't taught also on Eyevea, and as a whole, again, the Altmer have done nothing that couldn't have been replicated by any other civilization on Tamriel under the same circumstances.

-QFT-

Each time one is comparing such thing like "advancement", he's comparing chosen criteria. Why these criteria? Because these criteria comfort the hierarchy he intends to make happen.

People already reviewed some "relevant" criteria regarding the OP.
- Magics, I'd say "so-so" : Tribunal/Psijics, Telvanni/Sapiarchs, Red Mountain (robbed of the Dwemer)/Crystal-Like-Law (inherited from the aldmeri)...
- Architecture : I'd give the point to the Altmer if the value to judge this criterium is refinement
- Administration : as shown by @Aristocles22 the Altmer win the point if we judge in matters of stillness and order.

(To sum up, the OP point is that the Altmer are depicted in a very underwhelming manner in ESO. Which is true if one expected some stunning civilisation like the high-elves of Warhammer, Warcraft/WoW or other fantasy settings. In comparison the Altmer seems quite mundane, but from an in-universe perspective, they are not so ...)

Nah. I just expected something more like previous descriptions, rather than them explaining them all away as exaggerations in an attempt to them less fantastical, alien, and mystical than they were initially inteded to be. What we got is just bland and generic in my opinion, and oddly out of step with the other elven races of tamriel.

SomeDogsAreCops

usmguy1234 wrote: »

You have to take in to account that the altmer accomplished what they did through racial purity and strict standard enforcement.... the dumner did it off the backs of others (slaves). No comparison to really be had there.

Altmer enslaved argonians so.

Ajaxandriel

psychotrip wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

LickingHistSap wrote: »

Neither. No race in Tamriel is any more advanced than any other, with the exception of the races that have been denied opportunities to advance, like Goblins, Minotaurs, or to a much lesser extent, Argonians.

Dunmer aren't any more advanced than any of the other races, they just managed to have 3 people stumble into godhood thanks to the lanky nerd of their group reverse engineering what the Dwemer did to the Heart of Lorkhan. As a whole, Dunmeri civilization hasn't done anything that is impossible for any other civilization on Tamriel to do under the right circumstances. Creating houses out of carpaces and mushrooms is interesting, but it's not something impossible for another civilization to do had they had giant insects or mushrooms where they lived.

(Yes, individuals like Divayth Fyr exist, but so do people like Shalidor, Vanus Galerion, and Zurin Arctus)

Similarly, Altmer aren't more advanced than any other race in Tamriel, they're just obsessed with tradition. Summerset is meant to be a perfect, idealized society, but they aren't really any more advanced than any other society in Tamriel. The Sapiarchs don't teach anything that isn't taught also on Eyevea, and as a whole, again, the Altmer have done nothing that couldn't have been replicated by any other civilization on Tamriel under the same circumstances.

-QFT-

Each time one is comparing such thing like "advancement", he's comparing chosen criteria. Why these criteria? Because these criteria comfort the hierarchy he intends to make happen.

People already reviewed some "relevant" criteria regarding the OP.
- Magics, I'd say "so-so" : Tribunal/Psijics, Telvanni/Sapiarchs, Red Mountain (robbed of the Dwemer)/Crystal-Like-Law (inherited from the aldmeri)...
- Architecture : I'd give the point to the Altmer if the value to judge this criterium is refinement
- Administration : as shown by @Aristocles22 the Altmer win the point if we judge in matters of stillness and order.

(To sum up, the OP point is that the Altmer are depicted in a very underwhelming manner in ESO. Which is true if one expected some stunning civilisation like the high-elves of Warhammer, Warcraft/WoW or other fantasy settings. In comparison the Altmer seems quite mundane, but from an in-universe perspective, they are not so ...)

Nah. I just expected something more like previous descriptions, rather than them explaining them all away as exaggerations in an attempt to them less fantastical, alien, and mystical than they were initially inteded to be. What we got is just bland and generic in my opinion, and oddly out of step with the other elven races of tamriel.

If you look at this from the current world design, the Alinor style is relevant to relate with the "derived" style of the Empire and the Bretons. But the exaggeration part is indeed a kind of "treason" of what was described in written in-universe lore, I agree. Alinor should have been more literally crystalline, even if it were some few buildings or one monument only.

Thinking about it...
In comparison with Morrowind, something that lacks in the setting of Summerset, is an equivalent for Baar Dau and the Tribunal.
That's incredible there is nothing levitating in Summerset at all to be witnessed yet. Not any big orrery floating in the sky is a big lack. Maybe they wanted to be very different from the sanctums in Warcraft, idk. The technology is here when you look at the sky of Clockwork City.
And there is nothing really "divine" in what we see on the island either. The stuff about their ancestry seems quite moot.

psychotrip

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

LickingHistSap wrote: »

Neither. No race in Tamriel is any more advanced than any other, with the exception of the races that have been denied opportunities to advance, like Goblins, Minotaurs, or to a much lesser extent, Argonians.

Dunmer aren't any more advanced than any of the other races, they just managed to have 3 people stumble into godhood thanks to the lanky nerd of their group reverse engineering what the Dwemer did to the Heart of Lorkhan. As a whole, Dunmeri civilization hasn't done anything that is impossible for any other civilization on Tamriel to do under the right circumstances. Creating houses out of carpaces and mushrooms is interesting, but it's not something impossible for another civilization to do had they had giant insects or mushrooms where they lived.

(Yes, individuals like Divayth Fyr exist, but so do people like Shalidor, Vanus Galerion, and Zurin Arctus)

Similarly, Altmer aren't more advanced than any other race in Tamriel, they're just obsessed with tradition. Summerset is meant to be a perfect, idealized society, but they aren't really any more advanced than any other society in Tamriel. The Sapiarchs don't teach anything that isn't taught also on Eyevea, and as a whole, again, the Altmer have done nothing that couldn't have been replicated by any other civilization on Tamriel under the same circumstances.

-QFT-

Each time one is comparing such thing like "advancement", he's comparing chosen criteria. Why these criteria? Because these criteria comfort the hierarchy he intends to make happen.

People already reviewed some "relevant" criteria regarding the OP.
- Magics, I'd say "so-so" : Tribunal/Psijics, Telvanni/Sapiarchs, Red Mountain (robbed of the Dwemer)/Crystal-Like-Law (inherited from the aldmeri)...
- Architecture : I'd give the point to the Altmer if the value to judge this criterium is refinement
- Administration : as shown by @Aristocles22 the Altmer win the point if we judge in matters of stillness and order.

(To sum up, the OP point is that the Altmer are depicted in a very underwhelming manner in ESO. Which is true if one expected some stunning civilisation like the high-elves of Warhammer, Warcraft/WoW or other fantasy settings. In comparison the Altmer seems quite mundane, but from an in-universe perspective, they are not so ...)

Nah. I just expected something more like previous descriptions, rather than them explaining them all away as exaggerations in an attempt to them less fantastical, alien, and mystical than they were initially inteded to be. What we got is just bland and generic in my opinion, and oddly out of step with the other elven races of tamriel.

If you look at this from the current world design, the Alinor style is relevant to relate with the "derived" style of the Empire and the Bretons. But the exaggeration part is indeed a kind of "treason" of what was described in written in-universe lore, I agree. Alinor should have been more literally crystalline, even if it were some few buildings or one monument only.

Thinking about it...
In comparison with Morrowind, something that lacks in the setting of Summerset, is an equivalent for Baar Dau and the Tribunal.
That's incredible there is nothing levitating in Summerset at all to be witnessed yet. Not any big orrery floating in the sky is a big lack. Maybe they wanted to be very different from the sanctums in Warcraft, idk. The technology is here when you look at the sky of Clockwork City.
And there is nothing really "divine" in what we see on the island either. The stuff about their ancestry seems quite moot.

This is the core of my frustration. So much for being the most magical and intelligent race in the lore. Half of Tamriel feels more magical than Summerset.

Luigi_Vampa

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

scipionumatia wrote: »

Their education systems are supposed to be the best there is, granted there is not an elder scrolls game where you get to enroll in an altmer university so we dont know much of what they would study. I can say though that literacy is common in the elder scrolls universe, even for those who dont have any kind of formal education so i wouldnt use that as a gold standard. Also its very common for present civilizations to occupy and utilize items from the deceased technologically superior predecessors. Its a running theme you can find in every elder scrolls game. The altmer utilize the aldmer tech the same way the dwemer utilize chimer and dwarven tech.
I think my main point is still valid- The altmer are very organized and operate to bolster their race, they seek knowledge and education. The dunmer are organized among their inner circles and compete against everyone who is considered an outsider, including rival dunmer organizations. They seek power. Not one is superior to the other unless you take into consideration the cultural target theyre trying to achieve. The altmer as a race have a relative common goal, while the dunmer are continuously fighting among themselves to determine what that goal should be.
Also i thought we were just comparing altmer to dunmer, not altmer vs everyone. If we are taking all races into account for which is the most superior id have to say the imperials take the cake.

All this talk of the dunmers wants me to make one, in all the elder scrolls games ive ever played ive not once made a dunmer character. Ive made altmers but that was cause the racial passive was the most flexible for damage. with dunmer your kinda pointed in the fire direction and whenever i make a mag dk i end up going argonian. I played skyrim through as an bosmer the first time, and an orc the second time. morrowind i played through as a breton. and in eso ive never made one, i really should, just dont know what class to make, mag dk seems the only fitting one tbh. maybe magblade.

So the thing you claim makes the altmer advanced is something we never get to see or interact with...that’s pretty typical of the elder scrolls at this point I guess.

Yes races can live off their past, but the Altmer seem to have nothing of their own, not even mass-producable recreations or refinements of ancient technology. They’re just medieval europeans while the dunmer have modern engineering and magical cloning. Even the nords had ruins with mechanized parts thousands of years ago.

In their attempt to make the altmer feel “grounded”, Zenimax made them more primitive than half of Tamriel.

You say they're "just medieval europeans" like building cathedrals isn't an amazing feat of engineering.

The Altmer have entire cities built like that. Flying buttresses and all. Oh, and they've got sewer systems too, we get to see Shimmerene's. We're not talking Breton cities with a few stone buildings like the castle and the guilds while everyone else just builds inside the city walls and a glorified cave system for a sewer like Wayrest. We're talking whole cities, planned out to make full use of vertical space, and beautiful in the style of Mont St. Michel or Neuschwanstein. Mournhold and Vivec's sewer might power fountains, but Shimmerene's is no slouch in the "hey, people live down here and its not completely filthy" department.

The Altmer can produce large panes of clear glass, as we see in their greenhouses. Its not modern glass, sure, but its pretty hard to make uniform clear panes of glass to the extent the Altmer do.This also indicates a rather high degree of agricultural knowledge since they use greenhouses. The Dunmer focus on fungi, obviously, since Vvardenfell's got a lot of that. The Altmer don't have anything as showy as mushroom houses, but frankly, they've got a very tolerable climate and enough stoneworkers to build awesome cities, so why would they bother?

From what we can tell of their schooling, they use magic more intensively and school more of their populaiton than we've seen previously. As far as I can tell, the Dunmer seem to work on a master/apprentice system where you get a mentor for a task from your house and you learn from that person. At least, that's how outlanders like our Nerevarine get taught how to do things. The Altmer seem to emphasize self-learning (the path to Alaxon as you seek perfection in your vocation), mentorship (highly competitive with artists and the actors in the House of Revelries) and academies like Illumination Academy and the College of Sapiarchs. Illumination Academy has an extremely magical library that betters anything we've seen in the Arcane University, College of Winterhold, or a Telvanni Magelord. The College of Sapiarchs, while we don't see a whole lot of their work, does carry out experiments (I don't recall exactly, but I want to say the Sapiarchs are montioring the crab eggs of the Queen of the Reef WB to figure out corruption levels, or something like that), and they work together as colleagues in their different disciplines. Did I mention they work together? That's huge, because the Telvanni Magelords don't and the other magical colleges tend to squabble over politics. The Telvanni are hugely competitive as well, but since they tend towards klingon promotions and dog-eat-dog, the Telvanni Magelords end up being the stand-out-above-the-rest-outliers like Neloth and Divayth Fyr. Whereas the Sapiarchs as a whole have a much greater body of knowledge and successfully protected the Crystal Tower and Summerset from the Sea Sloads for over 300 years (They weren't expecting

Ritemaster Iachesis to be mind magicked into stealing the heart of their defenses, or to be attacked by Leythen's daedra, or for Nocturnal to show up and slaughter most of them in the Crystal Tower at the time.

)

Though if you are going to bring up Divayth Fyr's magical cloning, I'm going to bring up Mannimarco pioneering necromancy and inventing lichhood. I'm hard pressed to find a Dunmer who made as big an impact on Tamriel as a whole as Vanus Galerion did by starting his mages guild to bring magic and magical education to the masses of Tamriel. Vivec isn't the only person who can plan a city. Mournhold and Vivec, meet Shimmerene and Alinor. Different cities, to be sure, but all planned out and built as excellent examples of their architectural styles (and the Altmer built theirs without infusions of divine blessings from Vivec).

Personally, I don't think the Altmer feel primitive. They feel - less than they could have been, thanks to ZOS - like very high end medieval fantasy. To use a Lord of the Rings analogy, they feel like Gondor or the Numenorians, with shades of Rivendell. Which is a little disappointing, since I think many of us were hoping for something closer to the experience we had in TES III where we were immersed in an alien, utterly weird culture, only this time with more magic.

Now, I will be blunt. If you are determined to say that the Dunmer are better, I'm not going to convince you. Its a little hard to do that when you've got all of the rich detail of TES III to argue from on top of ESO, and I've got 1 zone and 1 Chapter and devs who want to retcon half the existing lore. But please, don't overlook the accomplishments the Altmer actually do have or pretend that they are somehow more 'primitive" than what we've seen from the other races in Tamriel.

I'm not being biased toward the dunmer if that's what you think. The Altmer were my favorite race by far until very recently.

I'm not going to pretend cathedrals aren't impressive, but compared to Vivec alone it doesn't quite compare. I mean, we already went over the need for ventilation and the complex irrigation that would require either advanced magic or engineering, but just the shape of the cantons alone feels more impressive than stacking a bunch of blocks on top of each other. The same goes for redoran architecture. Those kinds of organic shapes are very difficult to make without modern tools and methods, or some sort of moldable material. Again, I understand how impressive medieval stonemasonry is, but I'm comparing it to other things we've seen in Tamriel.

I get what you're saying though. I probably am disparaging the altmer a little too much. It's just sad that, on one hand we get "primitive" tribes who can build gigantic structures with mechanized components, another race of elves who build sewer systems with modern pipes, and can build cities out of magic and mushrooms, and on the other hand we get the Altmer, who live in medieval Europe.

For some reason, Zenimax decided to make the Altmer, of all people, more "grounded" and "realistic" (their words). These guys are supposed to be the most "elven" of elves, and yet everything they do and build seems so weirdly human and out of step with the other elven races.

It's just a bit disappointing, and makes the Altmer feel less...unique I guess. I wasn't asking for them to be 100% superior to every other race in every other way. But in terms of magic and science? I thought that was literally their whole thing. I just don't know what there really is to distinguish them anymore. The one thing that supposedly justified their arrogance doesn't really seem to be there. If it is there, then as you noted, we don't really get to see it or explore much of it. It just leaves me unsatisfied.

This is getting tiresome. Do you work in construction? Have you ever built a structure? Masonry is more than stacking blocks on top of each other. And crafting perfectly square and flush stone is just as difficult as rounding corners. Rounding out stone isn't some impressive feat of engineering. You don't need advanced tools to make "organic" shapes. You just need friction. I'm not saying Vivec isn't impressive but it really isn't anymore impressive than Alinor. Clay can be shaped and hardened even easier than stone. Do we actually know what materials are used in Canton construction?

Also are you ever going to address @VaranisArano 's claim of Dunmer having way more depth because of the amount of material they have and the direction of the series at the time of TES III?

You're clearly biased towards the Dunmer. I get you might just be dissapointed in ZOS' treatment of Altmer, I am too. But don't constantly ignore Altmer achievements, of which especially Varanis has elaborated on because of ventilation and irrigation and cantons curved look "feeling" more impressive.

psychotrip

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

scipionumatia wrote: »

Their education systems are supposed to be the best there is, granted there is not an elder scrolls game where you get to enroll in an altmer university so we dont know much of what they would study. I can say though that literacy is common in the elder scrolls universe, even for those who dont have any kind of formal education so i wouldnt use that as a gold standard. Also its very common for present civilizations to occupy and utilize items from the deceased technologically superior predecessors. Its a running theme you can find in every elder scrolls game. The altmer utilize the aldmer tech the same way the dwemer utilize chimer and dwarven tech.
I think my main point is still valid- The altmer are very organized and operate to bolster their race, they seek knowledge and education. The dunmer are organized among their inner circles and compete against everyone who is considered an outsider, including rival dunmer organizations. They seek power. Not one is superior to the other unless you take into consideration the cultural target theyre trying to achieve. The altmer as a race have a relative common goal, while the dunmer are continuously fighting among themselves to determine what that goal should be.
Also i thought we were just comparing altmer to dunmer, not altmer vs everyone. If we are taking all races into account for which is the most superior id have to say the imperials take the cake.

All this talk of the dunmers wants me to make one, in all the elder scrolls games ive ever played ive not once made a dunmer character. Ive made altmers but that was cause the racial passive was the most flexible for damage. with dunmer your kinda pointed in the fire direction and whenever i make a mag dk i end up going argonian. I played skyrim through as an bosmer the first time, and an orc the second time. morrowind i played through as a breton. and in eso ive never made one, i really should, just dont know what class to make, mag dk seems the only fitting one tbh. maybe magblade.

So the thing you claim makes the altmer advanced is something we never get to see or interact with...that’s pretty typical of the elder scrolls at this point I guess.

Yes races can live off their past, but the Altmer seem to have nothing of their own, not even mass-producable recreations or refinements of ancient technology. They’re just medieval europeans while the dunmer have modern engineering and magical cloning. Even the nords had ruins with mechanized parts thousands of years ago.

In their attempt to make the altmer feel “grounded”, Zenimax made them more primitive than half of Tamriel.

You say they're "just medieval europeans" like building cathedrals isn't an amazing feat of engineering.

The Altmer have entire cities built like that. Flying buttresses and all. Oh, and they've got sewer systems too, we get to see Shimmerene's. We're not talking Breton cities with a few stone buildings like the castle and the guilds while everyone else just builds inside the city walls and a glorified cave system for a sewer like Wayrest. We're talking whole cities, planned out to make full use of vertical space, and beautiful in the style of Mont St. Michel or Neuschwanstein. Mournhold and Vivec's sewer might power fountains, but Shimmerene's is no slouch in the "hey, people live down here and its not completely filthy" department.

The Altmer can produce large panes of clear glass, as we see in their greenhouses. Its not modern glass, sure, but its pretty hard to make uniform clear panes of glass to the extent the Altmer do.This also indicates a rather high degree of agricultural knowledge since they use greenhouses. The Dunmer focus on fungi, obviously, since Vvardenfell's got a lot of that. The Altmer don't have anything as showy as mushroom houses, but frankly, they've got a very tolerable climate and enough stoneworkers to build awesome cities, so why would they bother?

From what we can tell of their schooling, they use magic more intensively and school more of their populaiton than we've seen previously. As far as I can tell, the Dunmer seem to work on a master/apprentice system where you get a mentor for a task from your house and you learn from that person. At least, that's how outlanders like our Nerevarine get taught how to do things. The Altmer seem to emphasize self-learning (the path to Alaxon as you seek perfection in your vocation), mentorship (highly competitive with artists and the actors in the House of Revelries) and academies like Illumination Academy and the College of Sapiarchs. Illumination Academy has an extremely magical library that betters anything we've seen in the Arcane University, College of Winterhold, or a Telvanni Magelord. The College of Sapiarchs, while we don't see a whole lot of their work, does carry out experiments (I don't recall exactly, but I want to say the Sapiarchs are montioring the crab eggs of the Queen of the Reef WB to figure out corruption levels, or something like that), and they work together as colleagues in their different disciplines. Did I mention they work together? That's huge, because the Telvanni Magelords don't and the other magical colleges tend to squabble over politics. The Telvanni are hugely competitive as well, but since they tend towards klingon promotions and dog-eat-dog, the Telvanni Magelords end up being the stand-out-above-the-rest-outliers like Neloth and Divayth Fyr. Whereas the Sapiarchs as a whole have a much greater body of knowledge and successfully protected the Crystal Tower and Summerset from the Sea Sloads for over 300 years (They weren't expecting

Ritemaster Iachesis to be mind magicked into stealing the heart of their defenses, or to be attacked by Leythen's daedra, or for Nocturnal to show up and slaughter most of them in the Crystal Tower at the time.

)

Though if you are going to bring up Divayth Fyr's magical cloning, I'm going to bring up Mannimarco pioneering necromancy and inventing lichhood. I'm hard pressed to find a Dunmer who made as big an impact on Tamriel as a whole as Vanus Galerion did by starting his mages guild to bring magic and magical education to the masses of Tamriel. Vivec isn't the only person who can plan a city. Mournhold and Vivec, meet Shimmerene and Alinor. Different cities, to be sure, but all planned out and built as excellent examples of their architectural styles (and the Altmer built theirs without infusions of divine blessings from Vivec).

Personally, I don't think the Altmer feel primitive. They feel - less than they could have been, thanks to ZOS - like very high end medieval fantasy. To use a Lord of the Rings analogy, they feel like Gondor or the Numenorians, with shades of Rivendell. Which is a little disappointing, since I think many of us were hoping for something closer to the experience we had in TES III where we were immersed in an alien, utterly weird culture, only this time with more magic.

Now, I will be blunt. If you are determined to say that the Dunmer are better, I'm not going to convince you. Its a little hard to do that when you've got all of the rich detail of TES III to argue from on top of ESO, and I've got 1 zone and 1 Chapter and devs who want to retcon half the existing lore. But please, don't overlook the accomplishments the Altmer actually do have or pretend that they are somehow more 'primitive" than what we've seen from the other races in Tamriel.

I'm not being biased toward the dunmer if that's what you think. The Altmer were my favorite race by far until very recently.

I'm not going to pretend cathedrals aren't impressive, but compared to Vivec alone it doesn't quite compare. I mean, we already went over the need for ventilation and the complex irrigation that would require either advanced magic or engineering, but just the shape of the cantons alone feels more impressive than stacking a bunch of blocks on top of each other. The same goes for redoran architecture. Those kinds of organic shapes are very difficult to make without modern tools and methods, or some sort of moldable material. Again, I understand how impressive medieval stonemasonry is, but I'm comparing it to other things we've seen in Tamriel.

I get what you're saying though. I probably am disparaging the altmer a little too much. It's just sad that, on one hand we get "primitive" tribes who can build gigantic structures with mechanized components, another race of elves who build sewer systems with modern pipes, and can build cities out of magic and mushrooms, and on the other hand we get the Altmer, who live in medieval Europe.

For some reason, Zenimax decided to make the Altmer, of all people, more "grounded" and "realistic" (their words). These guys are supposed to be the most "elven" of elves, and yet everything they do and build seems so weirdly human and out of step with the other elven races.

It's just a bit disappointing, and makes the Altmer feel less...unique I guess. I wasn't asking for them to be 100% superior to every other race in every other way. But in terms of magic and science? I thought that was literally their whole thing. I just don't know what there really is to distinguish them anymore. The one thing that supposedly justified their arrogance doesn't really seem to be there. If it is there, then as you noted, we don't really get to see it or explore much of it. It just leaves me unsatisfied.

This is getting tiresome. Do you work in construction? Have you ever built a structure? Masonry is more than stacking blocks on top of each other. And crafting perfectly square and flush stone is just as difficult as rounding corners. Rounding out stone isn't some impressive feat of engineering. You don't need advanced tools to make "organic" shapes. You just need friction. I'm not saying Vivec isn't impressive but it really isn't anymore impressive than Alinor. Clay can be shaped and hardened even easier than stone. Do we actually know what materials are used in Canton construction?

Also are you ever going to address @VaranisArano 's claim of Dunmer having way more depth because of the amount of material they have and the direction of the series at the time of TES III?

You're clearly biased towards the Dunmer. I get you might just be dissapointed in ZOS' treatment of Altmer, I am too. But don't constantly ignore Altmer achievements, of which especially Varanis has elaborated on because of ventilation and irrigation and cantons curved look "feeling" more impressive.

I mean...yeah I admitted I was being biased out of frustration. You bring up very good points.

In regards to what Varanis said (I may have missed his comment. Which page is it on?) then I agree 100%. From an out of universe perspective that's exactly why this is the way it is. That doesn't make it any less disappointing or jarring. A race lacking depth and a unique creative vision isn't an excuse. It's a problem.

I disagree that I'm biased toward the dunmer, however. If anything I'm tired of them getting the spotlight. As far as I'm concerned they're a remnant of a version of Tamriel I enjoyed more than what we have now. I find it curious that they seem to be one of the most beloved races, and yet many fans argue that letting any other race be too "strange" would turn people off.

Really what I'm trying to point out is, by staying true to the dunmer but watering down much of Tamriel, we're in this weird situation where they (at least to me) appear to be very inconsistent with the rest of the IP in terms of their advancements and capabilities. They've become this weird outlier for me in a lot of ways.

rexagamemnon

The Imperials are the most advanced!

Luigi_Vampa

psychotrip wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

scipionumatia wrote: »

Their education systems are supposed to be the best there is, granted there is not an elder scrolls game where you get to enroll in an altmer university so we dont know much of what they would study. I can say though that literacy is common in the elder scrolls universe, even for those who dont have any kind of formal education so i wouldnt use that as a gold standard. Also its very common for present civilizations to occupy and utilize items from the deceased technologically superior predecessors. Its a running theme you can find in every elder scrolls game. The altmer utilize the aldmer tech the same way the dwemer utilize chimer and dwarven tech.
I think my main point is still valid- The altmer are very organized and operate to bolster their race, they seek knowledge and education. The dunmer are organized among their inner circles and compete against everyone who is considered an outsider, including rival dunmer organizations. They seek power. Not one is superior to the other unless you take into consideration the cultural target theyre trying to achieve. The altmer as a race have a relative common goal, while the dunmer are continuously fighting among themselves to determine what that goal should be.
Also i thought we were just comparing altmer to dunmer, not altmer vs everyone. If we are taking all races into account for which is the most superior id have to say the imperials take the cake.

All this talk of the dunmers wants me to make one, in all the elder scrolls games ive ever played ive not once made a dunmer character. Ive made altmers but that was cause the racial passive was the most flexible for damage. with dunmer your kinda pointed in the fire direction and whenever i make a mag dk i end up going argonian. I played skyrim through as an bosmer the first time, and an orc the second time. morrowind i played through as a breton. and in eso ive never made one, i really should, just dont know what class to make, mag dk seems the only fitting one tbh. maybe magblade.

So the thing you claim makes the altmer advanced is something we never get to see or interact with...that’s pretty typical of the elder scrolls at this point I guess.

Yes races can live off their past, but the Altmer seem to have nothing of their own, not even mass-producable recreations or refinements of ancient technology. They’re just medieval europeans while the dunmer have modern engineering and magical cloning. Even the nords had ruins with mechanized parts thousands of years ago.

In their attempt to make the altmer feel “grounded”, Zenimax made them more primitive than half of Tamriel.

You say they're "just medieval europeans" like building cathedrals isn't an amazing feat of engineering.

The Altmer have entire cities built like that. Flying buttresses and all. Oh, and they've got sewer systems too, we get to see Shimmerene's. We're not talking Breton cities with a few stone buildings like the castle and the guilds while everyone else just builds inside the city walls and a glorified cave system for a sewer like Wayrest. We're talking whole cities, planned out to make full use of vertical space, and beautiful in the style of Mont St. Michel or Neuschwanstein. Mournhold and Vivec's sewer might power fountains, but Shimmerene's is no slouch in the "hey, people live down here and its not completely filthy" department.

The Altmer can produce large panes of clear glass, as we see in their greenhouses. Its not modern glass, sure, but its pretty hard to make uniform clear panes of glass to the extent the Altmer do.This also indicates a rather high degree of agricultural knowledge since they use greenhouses. The Dunmer focus on fungi, obviously, since Vvardenfell's got a lot of that. The Altmer don't have anything as showy as mushroom houses, but frankly, they've got a very tolerable climate and enough stoneworkers to build awesome cities, so why would they bother?

From what we can tell of their schooling, they use magic more intensively and school more of their populaiton than we've seen previously. As far as I can tell, the Dunmer seem to work on a master/apprentice system where you get a mentor for a task from your house and you learn from that person. At least, that's how outlanders like our Nerevarine get taught how to do things. The Altmer seem to emphasize self-learning (the path to Alaxon as you seek perfection in your vocation), mentorship (highly competitive with artists and the actors in the House of Revelries) and academies like Illumination Academy and the College of Sapiarchs. Illumination Academy has an extremely magical library that betters anything we've seen in the Arcane University, College of Winterhold, or a Telvanni Magelord. The College of Sapiarchs, while we don't see a whole lot of their work, does carry out experiments (I don't recall exactly, but I want to say the Sapiarchs are montioring the crab eggs of the Queen of the Reef WB to figure out corruption levels, or something like that), and they work together as colleagues in their different disciplines. Did I mention they work together? That's huge, because the Telvanni Magelords don't and the other magical colleges tend to squabble over politics. The Telvanni are hugely competitive as well, but since they tend towards klingon promotions and dog-eat-dog, the Telvanni Magelords end up being the stand-out-above-the-rest-outliers like Neloth and Divayth Fyr. Whereas the Sapiarchs as a whole have a much greater body of knowledge and successfully protected the Crystal Tower and Summerset from the Sea Sloads for over 300 years (They weren't expecting

Ritemaster Iachesis to be mind magicked into stealing the heart of their defenses, or to be attacked by Leythen's daedra, or for Nocturnal to show up and slaughter most of them in the Crystal Tower at the time.

)

Though if you are going to bring up Divayth Fyr's magical cloning, I'm going to bring up Mannimarco pioneering necromancy and inventing lichhood. I'm hard pressed to find a Dunmer who made as big an impact on Tamriel as a whole as Vanus Galerion did by starting his mages guild to bring magic and magical education to the masses of Tamriel. Vivec isn't the only person who can plan a city. Mournhold and Vivec, meet Shimmerene and Alinor. Different cities, to be sure, but all planned out and built as excellent examples of their architectural styles (and the Altmer built theirs without infusions of divine blessings from Vivec).

Personally, I don't think the Altmer feel primitive. They feel - less than they could have been, thanks to ZOS - like very high end medieval fantasy. To use a Lord of the Rings analogy, they feel like Gondor or the Numenorians, with shades of Rivendell. Which is a little disappointing, since I think many of us were hoping for something closer to the experience we had in TES III where we were immersed in an alien, utterly weird culture, only this time with more magic.

Now, I will be blunt. If you are determined to say that the Dunmer are better, I'm not going to convince you. Its a little hard to do that when you've got all of the rich detail of TES III to argue from on top of ESO, and I've got 1 zone and 1 Chapter and devs who want to retcon half the existing lore. But please, don't overlook the accomplishments the Altmer actually do have or pretend that they are somehow more 'primitive" than what we've seen from the other races in Tamriel.

I'm not being biased toward the dunmer if that's what you think. The Altmer were my favorite race by far until very recently.

I'm not going to pretend cathedrals aren't impressive, but compared to Vivec alone it doesn't quite compare. I mean, we already went over the need for ventilation and the complex irrigation that would require either advanced magic or engineering, but just the shape of the cantons alone feels more impressive than stacking a bunch of blocks on top of each other. The same goes for redoran architecture. Those kinds of organic shapes are very difficult to make without modern tools and methods, or some sort of moldable material. Again, I understand how impressive medieval stonemasonry is, but I'm comparing it to other things we've seen in Tamriel.

I get what you're saying though. I probably am disparaging the altmer a little too much. It's just sad that, on one hand we get "primitive" tribes who can build gigantic structures with mechanized components, another race of elves who build sewer systems with modern pipes, and can build cities out of magic and mushrooms, and on the other hand we get the Altmer, who live in medieval Europe.

For some reason, Zenimax decided to make the Altmer, of all people, more "grounded" and "realistic" (their words). These guys are supposed to be the most "elven" of elves, and yet everything they do and build seems so weirdly human and out of step with the other elven races.

It's just a bit disappointing, and makes the Altmer feel less...unique I guess. I wasn't asking for them to be 100% superior to every other race in every other way. But in terms of magic and science? I thought that was literally their whole thing. I just don't know what there really is to distinguish them anymore. The one thing that supposedly justified their arrogance doesn't really seem to be there. If it is there, then as you noted, we don't really get to see it or explore much of it. It just leaves me unsatisfied.

This is getting tiresome. Do you work in construction? Have you ever built a structure? Masonry is more than stacking blocks on top of each other. And crafting perfectly square and flush stone is just as difficult as rounding corners. Rounding out stone isn't some impressive feat of engineering. You don't need advanced tools to make "organic" shapes. You just need friction. I'm not saying Vivec isn't impressive but it really isn't anymore impressive than Alinor. Clay can be shaped and hardened even easier than stone. Do we actually know what materials are used in Canton construction?

Also are you ever going to address @VaranisArano 's claim of Dunmer having way more depth because of the amount of material they have and the direction of the series at the time of TES III?

You're clearly biased towards the Dunmer. I get you might just be dissapointed in ZOS' treatment of Altmer, I am too. But don't constantly ignore Altmer achievements, of which especially Varanis has elaborated on because of ventilation and irrigation and cantons curved look "feeling" more impressive.

I mean...yeah I admitted I was being biased out of frustration. You bring up very good points.

In regards to what Varanis said (I may have missed his comment. Which page is it on?) then I agree 100%. From an out of universe perspective that's exactly why this is the way it is. That doesn't make it any less disappointing or jarring. A race lacking depth and a unique creative vision isn't an excuse. It's a problem.

I disagree that I'm biased toward the dunmer, however. If anything I'm tired of them getting the spotlight. As far as I'm concerned they're a remnant of a version of Tamriel I enjoyed more than what we have now. I find it curious that they seem to be one of the most beloved races, and yet many fans argue that letting any other race be too "strange" would turn people off.

Really what I'm trying to point out is, by staying true to the dunmer but watering down much of Tamriel, we're in this weird situation where they (at least to me) appear to be very inconsistent with the rest of the IP in terms of their advancements and capabilities. They've become this weird outlier for me in a lot of ways.

I agree with you there. Nobody has gotten the truly unique feel that Dunmer have. I was fine with Oblivion and Skyrim being more normal, but I think the Elves should be weird. They shouldn't be Tolkien looking elves.

Claudman

Both of them are gorgeous elves.

Therefore both of them are advanced.

InvictusApollo

Guys I would only like to advise that it doesn't matter what the source of any civlizational advantage is. All that matters is the end result for a civilization.
In that matter statements like:
"Dunmer are primitive because they flourished on the back of enslaved race."
"Dunmer are les advanced because theyr leaders stole divinity."
"Altmer are inferior because they still use Aldmer artifacts."
... are all meaningless to the argument.

Every civilization uses all available resources to grow. Some civilizations have more of these resources so they grow faster and better. In comparison of two civilizations we can only take the end results.

Hysorn

Magic halts scientific advancement, which is why the Dwemer were so advanced, they hated the gods and used very little magic. I would say Dunmer are far more advanced in that regard, Altmer answer everything with magic, they don't create solutions for their problems, instead they circle around it, the Dunmer however, tried everything, from the practical to the magical.

Ogou

Hysorn wrote: »

Magic halts scientific advancement, which is why the Dwemer were so advanced, they hated the gods and used very little magic. I would say Dunmer are far more advanced in that regard, Altmer answer everything with magic, they don't create solutions for their problems, instead they circle around it, the Dunmer however, tried everything, from the practical to the magical.

I don't think that's how it works in TES though. You can't separate magic and science in the Aurbis as they are too interconnected. The Dwemers, for example, were masters of tonal magic.
Back on topic though, the Dunmer seem to have a much better understanding of biology (silt striders, cloning, mushroom towers etc). Altmer seem to win when it comes to crafting (glass armor and weapons), architecture (compare Alinor to Vivec) and enchanting and alchemy (Vanus Galerion made it possible for the average person to have access to potion and spells by making the process more efficient).

Korah_Eaglecry

Valpro wrote: »

I feel like saying which one is more "advanced" is weird. Advancement is typically caused by the problems you face and since the dunmer and altmer face different problem they would advance in different areas. The old "which on is more -blank" always gets to me because it tends to try to simplify things that aren't done justice when thought of in the binary (group 1 or group 2) sense.

Thats a pretty good point. Altmer really havent had any big challenges to their way of living. Theyve been isolated and living in a literal paradise where they can commit hundreds of years of their existence to perfecting things that most of us would think mundane. On occassion they might have to deal with Maormer and every few hundred years the Sloads. But over all they have had time to focus on details the average human wouldnt take notice of on first glance. Where as the Dunmer have been living in perpetual change and constant threats from not just their neighbors but their environment.

I personally think that what is often overlooked when it comes to the "alien" look of Vvardenfell and the Dunmer in general is that these are people worshipping Daedra or at least thats what their culture was built upon originally. That goes very deep into their way of thinking and approach to building a civilization. They feel alien, because they very much are alien to everyone else. Including their Altmer cousins who would want to remain as similar to their Aldmer ancestors as they can.

RebornV3x

It depends I think the Telvanni are probably on par or exceed anything the Altmer have but i think as a whole Altmer are more advanced than Dunmer atleast in ESO when you compare cities like Mournhold which other than the Tribunal Temple looks like a city dump compared to Alinor

VaranisArano

RebornV3x wrote: »

It depends I think the Telvanni are probably on par or exceed anything the Altmer have but i think as a whole Altmer are more advanced than Dunmer atleast in ESO when you compare cities like Mournhold which other than the Tribunal Temple looks like a city dump compared to Alinor

For what it's worth, 3rd Era Mournhold looks a lot better in the Tribunal DLC from TES 3. Base game Deshaan really doesn't do it justice.

Mecanista

I have to make a defense for the Altmer here.

Just because their buildings look like the "normal" medieval structures you're used to, it doesn't mean that they're primitive.

Every civil engineer knows that the medieval architecture and masonry was a huge leap in building and infrastructure. Those techniques were the foundation of modern engineering, and some of these buildings are still standing and functional today.

Secondly, their buildings are tall. What does that mean? a lot. Not only how much advanced your construction techniques are, but the kind of materials you use. Multiple tall buildings are a sign of an advanced civilization.

I don't know exactly why the Dunmer grow their houses out of mushrooms, but my two guesses are: 1. scarcity of construction materials; 2. they're too lazy for manual labor.
Regardless, building your house with living tissue is a bad idea.

psychotrip wrote: »

Dunmer architecture would require an extremely advanced understanding of engineering

Not as extremely advanced as you think. Their lack of angles are more because of the material they used than an architectural choice. Which again, it's either because they lack variety of construction resources or because they're too lazy to spend time gathering them.

psychotrip wrote: »

We don't have to imagine just how advanced their plumbing and irrigation system would have to be, because we can see it for ourselves. Boot up Morrowind, take a walk through Vivec and you'll see the canals, the fountains, the water that is somehow transported up to the top of each canton and pours back down. [/b]

All ancient civilizations had irrigation techniques. Romans had sewers that are still functional today. Not much of a big deal compared with the medieval tech of the Altmer. Of course Magic helps alot in the process, but the Altmer are magically gifted as well.

I'd say the Altmer are more advanced as society, with the Dunmer being the only ones that come close.

However, none of them achieved the industrial revolution like the Dwemer did ages ago.

Number_51

Sigtric wrote: »

This is easy.

Altmer can't figure out how to cure their jaundice.

Dunmer win.

If we're really going to go there we could also say:

Dunmer haven't figured out how to wash **** off their faces yet.

Altmer win.

...but lets just not go there, I'm enjoying the debate.

Boethiah ate Trinimac and voided him. The followers of Boethiah and Trinimac rubbed the soil of Trinimac upon themselves and changed their skins. - The Anticipations

Xvorg

Basically Dunmer, just because they made contact with Dwemer and learnt A LOT from them

TelvanniWizard

Xvorg wrote: »

Basically Dunmer, just because they made contact with Dwemer and learnt A LOT from them

True

Ogou

Xvorg wrote: »

Basically Dunmer, just because they made contact with Dwemer and learnt A LOT from them

What did they learn from the Dwemer? If I remember correctly the alliance did not live long enough for the Dunmer to get anything out of it.

Aristocles22

If we're judging by the buildings, then we'd have to give it to the Altmer, easily. As I mentioned earlier, the Altmer have mastered high Gothic architecture, while the Dunmer mostly have architecture ranging from Ancient Mesopotamian to Romanesque at best. Gothic isn't just a style, it depends on highly sophisticated math, calculation of angles, and use of sophisticated engineering to make it work, such as flying buttresses, pointed arches (which are only decorative for the Dunmer, not load-bearing), vaulted ceilings, and minimal use of internal supports, which allows for high ceilings and a huge volume of internal space.

By contrast, most Dunmer architecture (the bizarre Tribunal Temple notwithstanding, not sure how to classify it) has relatively low ceilings, relatively short height (with a few exceptions in Mournhold and Vivec City, mostly), and simple forms and shapes. Even Vivec's palace has a small amount of usable space inside compared to its massive volume overall. Just compare that to the Monastery of Serene Harmony or Alinor's Royal Palace. The structures are mostly able to hold themselves up from the outside, freeing up a tremendous volume inside and allowing for huge windows to let in a great deal of light from the outside. The Dunmer just can't do that.

I will say that, personally, I prefer Morrowind as a setting over the Summerset Isles. Every part of Morrowind is unique, the architecture varies from place to place (mostly in Vvardenfell, but that's about half of Morrowind), the great houses give many variations on the theme of the dunmer, allowing for more variety within the same race. The high elves are pretty much all perfectionists who live in a semi-tropical whitewashed version of high medieval Europe. Basically Disneyworld.

Ysbriel

The Dwemer where not impressed by either.

TelvanniWizard

Number of altmer brothels: 0

Number of dunmer brothels: 1

Seems like absolute dunmer victory to me.

Aristocles22

On a minor note, I can say that the Altmer also have advanced plumbing, at least a match for what the Dunmer have. Those fountains in Alinor and elsewhere (no pun intended) are not easy to keep supplied by pre-modern standards. Something like the waterfalls on Vivec's palace are about as advanced as a fountain, just on a much grander scale.