Murkmire, and exploring Blackmarsh.

CyberSkooma

PouletRico wrote: »

Won't it be made as a Shadowfen like ? I don't expect anything else from ZOS, even if I would love a more Argonian style region

Shadowfen 2.0 is pretty much the expectation, at least for me. I'm sure it will look a lot better at this point though because the team has more experience under their belt.

dodgehopper_ESO

CyberSkooma wrote: »

PouletRico wrote: »

Won't it be made as a Shadowfen like ? I don't expect anything else from ZOS, even if I would love a more Argonian style region

Shadowfen 2.0 is pretty much the expectation, at least for me. I'm sure it will look a lot better at this point though because the team has more experience under their belt.

Well I suspect we'll see more structures on stilts and lizard-people paddling pirogues and bamboo rafts. That being said I do hope that there is a recognition that the Argonians live underneath the surface as well as on it. I hope for floating cities and yes toxic clouds that pass through. If they could give the Far Harbor treatment (yeah I know its a fallout reference) to the surrounding areas that would be awesome. The land of the Argonians really should be something truly alien.

P.S.: The reason Septim could never conquer Argonia is the same reason the Altmer could never really defeat the Sload. These are aquatic races that live in a realm completely different from air-breathers. Septim managed a mutually beneficial arrangement with the king of Argonia in much the same way that he came with something agreeable between himself and Vekh. In many ways Septim was a businessman, which somehow fits the Cyrodiilic way.

CyberSkooma

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

PouletRico wrote: »

Won't it be made as a Shadowfen like ? I don't expect anything else from ZOS, even if I would love a more Argonian style region

Shadowfen 2.0 is pretty much the expectation, at least for me. I'm sure it will look a lot better at this point though because the team has more experience under their belt.

The land of the Argonians really should be something truly alien.

At this point it looks like TES is over anything "alien."

But we can hope.

ArchMikem

CyberSkooma wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

PouletRico wrote: »

Won't it be made as a Shadowfen like ? I don't expect anything else from ZOS, even if I would love a more Argonian style region

Shadowfen 2.0 is pretty much the expectation, at least for me. I'm sure it will look a lot better at this point though because the team has more experience under their belt.

The land of the Argonians really should be something truly alien.

At this point it looks like TES is over anything "alien."

But we can hope.

I disagree with these opinions.

People claim Black Marsh is "alien" only because the in-game lore has exaggerated stories of the land as "alien" But the in-game lorebooks are meant to be taken as vague legends, not fact checked history books. And you know stories are ALWAYS exaggerated to give them a more interesting story to tell. If the Imperials wrote books about how the Argonians lived in stone pyramids in quite pleasant rain forests, then it wouldn't be very entertaining would it? Maybe change that to underground labyrinths beneath deadly bogs of poison and acid. There's a best seller.

CyberSkooma

You're damn right it's a best seller. So I'm confused why we need to use the assumption that the writings were simply over-exaggerated.

You think the developers of TES thought that sounded like an interesting place that they wanted to explore and discover, only to intentionally wash it down? I'm just confused why we need to deter from these writings. They are interesting places that we are sanding down and throwing away.

EDIT: I'm just really trying to find what the problem was with crystal towers, bug wing boat sails, poisonous storms, and Cyrodiilic jungles, etc.

SirAxen

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

It's pretty easy to grasp, actually. When 'Elder Scrolls' first became a thing, it wasn't a fully fleshed out lore yet. It's 'lore' is being built by the day. Some of those older games are simply being course corrected these days.

That might have been a reasonable excuse for Oblivion, or retconning something from Arena. It's not an excuse that holds water for ESO, especially when one of those 'older games' is ESO itself.

It's not an excuse, it just is what it is bud. Elder Scrolls has NEVER had fluent lore and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

Darkmage1337

Murkmire may be myserious; but, it's ESO, so expect massive, impassable mountains.

Everywhere.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

SirAxen wrote: »

It's not an excuse, it just is what it is bud. Elder Scrolls has NEVER had fluent lore and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

FYI you're contradicting yourself here.

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

Murkmire may be myserious; but, it's ESO, so expect massive, impassable mountains.

It would not surprise me in the least if they took their original planned map and split it in half to be released as two DLCs.

Robo_Hobo

But I would like some well thought out lore to explain why both the first empire and Talos did not go fully in on invading all of Argonia. I could accept that the first empire bought into the propaganda of the land being inhospitable. But by Talos time, I would have to believe that the man/men werent so easily fooled. Give us something to chew on while marching deeper into the swamps.

There's a few easy ways to explain it. Sure, it might be able to be able to be traversed by well-traveled adventurers going it alone, but an entire invading army? Armies travel slow on normal terrain, but in a land that's basically all swamp, I imagine it would be even slower. That means more supplies, less efficiency, and you're up against natives who stride through the swamp like it's nothing, using guerilla tactics against your forces.

Most of the forces would probably die by the environmental hazards, and then more from the skirmishes from the natives, but I think really what ends every invasion attempt is the single question: What's the point? The empire takes over Black Marsh. No imperials in their right minds want to live there, any attempts that have been made in the past to turn it into an imperialized cash crop have actually made it less efficient to do any sort of business there...for all the effort it would take to conquer it, it just isn't worth the trouble. I think each of the Emporer's eventually realize that, sooner or later. Even Talos.

But lone adventurers can move a lot easier than armies, and seeing as you aren't going in with hostile intent, only most of the people and the land itself will try to kill you, not all of them.

SirAxen

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

It's not an excuse, it just is what it is bud. Elder Scrolls has NEVER had fluent lore and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

FYI you're contradicting yourself here.

Darkmage1337 wrote: »

Murkmire may be myserious; but, it's ESO, so expect massive, impassable mountains.

It would not surprise me in the least if they took their original planned map and split it in half to be released as two DLCs.

Oh? Enlighten me. How is stating that Elder Scrolls has never been fluent and consistent with it's lore contradicting myself. It looks to me like you just don't want to admit you haven't thought your outrage through and are simply diverting. Black Marsh (and Murkmire) are both entirely up to Bethesda and ZOS. Not you, not me, not anyone but the people who are the creators of this universe. For you to say they are incorrect, is incredibly egotistical not to mention false.

grizzledcroc

Did you watch the stream? I like that there are argonians that look like the ones from oblivion there. Least the tribe they showed didnt look like the traditional ones ingame so far. Plus the whole naga thing and undead rising out of the water thing is great.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

SirAxen wrote: »

Oh? Enlighten me. How is stating that Elder Scrolls has never been fluent and consistent with it's lore contradicting myself.

Sure. Fluent. So using the actual definition of that word, your sentance reads:

Elder Scrolls has NEVER had easily changed and adapted lore and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

Fluent does not mean what you apparently think it means.

grizzledcroc wrote: »

Did you watch the stream? I like that there are argonians that look like the ones from oblivion there. Least the tribe they showed didnt look like the traditional ones ingame so far. Plus the whole naga thing and undead rising out of the water thing is great.

I saw it, I'm still not terribly impressed with that lizard mount design. (I do allow the glowy bits that appeared in its animation were kind of cool, but not sufficiently so to make me excited for it. It still just looks like a lizard.) I was happy to hear about the voriplasm (previously mentioned in the Argonian Account) and a little concerned that they mentioned it'll be about the size of Clockwork City.

I'm tentatively looking forward to seeing it on the PTS, if for no other reason than to see if it's going to be worthwhile content.

Bruccius

CyberSkooma wrote: »

I'm concerned about how ZOS is going to handle heading into Black Marsh for Murkmire. Obviously, we don't know very much about Murkmire yet. But I'm still going to say what's on my mind about it. (TES and it's infamous lore inconsistencies, oof.)

Since you're reading the lore section of the forum, I'll assume that you already know the basics of Black Marsh. Practically completely inhospitable except to the Argonians, who are immune to poisons and disease. Mysterious and uncharted by those except the native Argonians.. The landscape is littered with poisonous animals, insects, plants, and parasites lurking in the waters; things that have helped prevent successful invasions on the territory. Even Tiber Septim avoided all except the borders.

I am worried that Murkmire will downplay all of these things, and kill the mystery and the danger that the region holds by even just traveling. Yes, we currently have Shadowfen in the game, but it's not very deep into the region, so at least you can play with the excuse that it's not the "heart" of Black Marsh. The last thing I want to see in The Elder Scrolls is another "Inhospitable" region ruined, and made very, very hospitable. *cough* Skyrim *cough*

We barely know anything about Black Marsh in general, there isn't much for them to muck up. Also, the inconsistencies in TES is what makes the world feel alive.

Black Marsh is actually rather... Well, I wouldn't say ''hospitable'', but liveable for non-Argonians. It's only its deep inner swamps that form a sincere threat to the non-Argonians. Do not forget that there's also been a rather grand fire in Black Marsh when it got invaded by Reman Cyrodiil, resulting in the death of quite a lot of flora and fauna.

The big question is how Murkmire will be implemented. What we ''know'' shows that Murkmire is still a bit north from the truly deadly swamps of Black Marsh.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Bruccius wrote: »

Do not forget that there's also been a rather grand fire in Black Marsh when it got invaded by Reman Cyrodiil, resulting in the death of quite a lot of flora and fauna.

Isn't that from one of the datamined books that we haven't officially gotten though?

(I do acknowledge that dish made from two poisons made it into Summerset, and that was in one of those books too, but there have other things from previous datamines *cough*varlines*cough* that have been cut.)

Bruccius

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Do not forget that there's also been a rather grand fire in Black Marsh when it got invaded by Reman Cyrodiil, resulting in the death of quite a lot of flora and fauna.

Isn't that from one of the datamined books that we haven't officially gotten though?

(I do acknowledge that dish made from two poisons made it into Summerset, and that was in one of those books too, but there have other things from previous datamines *cough*varlines*cough* that have been cut.)

Now that you mention it, that's quite possible.

CyberSkooma

Totally possible. That being said, I'm less concerned going into Murkmire since seeing the footage. At this point, we'll see once it actually becomes available what we have to criticize and/or praise about it.

Koronach

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

Oh? Enlighten me. How is stating that Elder Scrolls has never been fluent and consistent with it's lore contradicting myself.

Sure. Fluent. So using the actual definition of that word, your sentance reads:

Elder Scrolls has NEVER had easily changed and adapted lore and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

Fluent does not mean what you apparently think it means.

grizzledcroc wrote: »

Did you watch the stream? I like that there are argonians that look like the ones from oblivion there. Least the tribe they showed didnt look like the traditional ones ingame so far. Plus the whole naga thing and undead rising out of the water thing is great.

I saw it, I'm still not terribly impressed with that lizard mount design. (I do allow the glowy bits that appeared in its animation were kind of cool, but not sufficiently so to make me excited for it. It still just looks like a lizard.) I was happy to hear about the voriplasm (previously mentioned in the Argonian Account) and a little concerned that they mentioned it'll be about the size of Clockwork City.

I'm tentatively looking forward to seeing it on the PTS, if for no other reason than to see if it's going to be worthwhile content.

Announced 4 years ago and only the size of CWC? Wow that's just sad.

CyberSkooma

Koronach wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

Oh? Enlighten me. How is stating that Elder Scrolls has never been fluent and consistent with it's lore contradicting myself.

Sure. Fluent. So using the actual definition of that word, your sentance reads:

Elder Scrolls has NEVER had easily changed and adapted lore and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

Fluent does not mean what you apparently think it means.

grizzledcroc wrote: »

Did you watch the stream? I like that there are argonians that look like the ones from oblivion there. Least the tribe they showed didnt look like the traditional ones ingame so far. Plus the whole naga thing and undead rising out of the water thing is great.

I saw it, I'm still not terribly impressed with that lizard mount design. (I do allow the glowy bits that appeared in its animation were kind of cool, but not sufficiently so to make me excited for it. It still just looks like a lizard.) I was happy to hear about the voriplasm (previously mentioned in the Argonian Account) and a little concerned that they mentioned it'll be about the size of Clockwork City.

I'm tentatively looking forward to seeing it on the PTS, if for no other reason than to see if it's going to be worthwhile content.

Announced 4 years ago and only the size of CWC? Wow that's just sad.

Indeed the size is the main thing I'm concerned about right now. CWC is just so small. Murkmire deserves more space than that..

Koronach

I hope that it may be the size of CWC but they crammed in a lot more than they did with CWC. I would be totally fine with that, still sad it wasn't bigger but fine with it nonetheless.

CyberSkooma

Koronach wrote: »

I hope that it may be the size of CWC but they crammed in a lot more than they did with CWC. I would be totally fine with that, still sad it wasn't bigger but fine with it nonetheless.

I hope they somehow integrate the underground systems that are written in the lore. This could mean the same size on the map, but there's really more to it than CWC.

Bruccius

@Koronach
@CyberSkooma
I only looked at your avatars and literally thought you were the same person talking to themselves for a second, lmao.

If it's the size of CwC, perhaps those deady Black Marsh swamps do play a role in the area, possibly blocking off large chunks of it.

CyberSkooma

Bruccius wrote: »

@Koronach
@CyberSkooma
I only looked at your avatars and literally thought you were the same person talking to themselves for a second, lmao.

If it's the size of CwC, perhaps those deady Black Marsh swamps do play a role in the area, possibly blocking off large chunks of it.

Yeah, lmao. I think I'm going to change my avatar back to my original one as I'm starting to realize how many people are using this! lol

Koronach

CyberSkooma wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

@Koronach
@CyberSkooma
I only looked at your avatars and literally thought you were the same person talking to themselves for a second, lmao.

If it's the size of CwC, perhaps those deady Black Marsh swamps do play a role in the area, possibly blocking off large chunks of it.

Yeah, lmao. I think I'm going to change my avatar back to my original one as I'm starting to realize how many people are using this! lol

Xuth! Sorry about the confusion ;^.=.^

psychotrip

CyberSkooma wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I know how you feel. I want those poison storms to be real. I want the subsurface cities to be a thing as well... which means they probably should add water breathing and 3d swimming.

Indeed.. I've always called for 3D swimming anyway. Unfortunately ESO has almost ruined many of the previously unseen zones for me. I know they'd probably be portrayed differently in a main-line game but... sheesh.

They won't be though, since ESO has been confirmed as canon, and Bethesda at least provides input for a lot of the lore and visuals. Sure, in a mainline game we'll see more variety in the cities, more diverse regions etc., but the basics of what we've seen in each province is as close to "canon" as exists in this series.

I know, I don't like it either. But that's the way it is.

ghastley

If we accept that the Hist is/are a hive-mind that actually controls the Black Marsh environment, then it can change whenever the Hist wants it to do so. Yes, it CAN be totally impenetrable, but if you're the player, we might let you have a free pass. And when you're gone, it can change again.

BigBadVolk

psychotrip wrote: »

CyberSkooma wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I know how you feel. I want those poison storms to be real. I want the subsurface cities to be a thing as well... which means they probably should add water breathing and 3d swimming.

Indeed.. I've always called for 3D swimming anyway. Unfortunately ESO has almost ruined many of the previously unseen zones for me. I know they'd probably be portrayed differently in a main-line game but... sheesh.

They won't be though, since ESO has been confirmed as canon, and Bethesda at least provides input for a lot of the lore and visuals. Sure, in a mainline game we'll see more variety in the cities, more diverse regions etc., but the basics of what we've seen in each province is as close to "canon" as exists in this series.

I know, I don't like it either. But that's the way it is.

ye but Bethesda always can retcon those they dont like. and tbh no one will bat an eye, or at least some will but it depends if they choose to how will they.
Heck Blizzard retconned half of their lore with Legion

SirAxen

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

Oh? Enlighten me. How is stating that Elder Scrolls has never been fluent and consistent with it's lore contradicting myself.

Sure. Fluent. So using the actual definition of that word, your sentance reads:

Elder Scrolls has NEVER had easily changed and adapted lore and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

Fluent does not mean what you apparently think it means.

grizzledcroc wrote: »

Did you watch the stream? I like that there are argonians that look like the ones from oblivion there. Least the tribe they showed didnt look like the traditional ones ingame so far. Plus the whole naga thing and undead rising out of the water thing is great.

I saw it, I'm still not terribly impressed with that lizard mount design. (I do allow the glowy bits that appeared in its animation were kind of cool, but not sufficiently so to make me excited for it. It still just looks like a lizard.) I was happy to hear about the voriplasm (previously mentioned in the Argonian Account) and a little concerned that they mentioned it'll be about the size of Clockwork City.

I'm tentatively looking forward to seeing it on the PTS, if for no other reason than to see if it's going to be worthwhile content.

Ha! I figured that's what you meant. Too bad that doesn't change the fact you're wrong.