[BG] How to optimise a group ?

Thogard

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

Fought a group on xbox yesterday that was 2 zookeeper sorcs, a stamblade, and a healer. All i got to say is WOW! I'd rather fight @Lexxypwns comp lol

An actual Stam group would destroy that comp though.

Big ulti dump and it’s GG, but you do have to be smart and engage after they engage the opponents. Running right into that is gonna hurt otherwise.

That's why we run the sub assault / gap close / DBOS combo

Lexxypwns

Thogard wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

Fought a group on xbox yesterday that was 2 zookeeper sorcs, a stamblade, and a healer. All i got to say is WOW! I'd rather fight @Lexxypwns comp lol

An actual Stam group would destroy that comp though.

Big ulti dump and it’s GG, but you do have to be smart and engage after they engage the opponents. Running right into that is gonna hurt otherwise.

That's why we run the sub assault / gap close / DBOS combo

Oh, I know. I was just elaborating on what you said. Sorcs can’t really begin to mitigate consistent group pressure, even with a healer you have to get LoS or pop a resto, but since the pets die to the ult dump they’re then severely gimped trying to do anything

Lichbourne90

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Lichbourne90 wrote: »

Fought a group on xbox yesterday that was 2 zookeeper sorcs, a stamblade, and a healer. All i got to say is WOW! I'd rather fight @Lexxypwns comp lol

An actual Stam group would destroy that comp though.

Big ulti dump and it’s GG, but you do have to be smart and engage after they engage the opponents. Running right into that is gonna hurt otherwise.

O I understand, but being solo qued against that was rough

Vapirko

@Morgul667 do have a stamina DK? I recently got back on mine and find it to be way better than Stam Sorc with a similar play style. Major mending, minor brutality, poison claw or noxious breath is nice. Fortified brass, bone pirates with weapon damage in jewelry and one infused piece, and I’ve been using selenes mosnter set. Fortified let’s you run 2h front bar and dw backbar because of all the defense. Between vigor, rending slashes and rally the heals are crazy. 1900 stamina recovery, 35k stam and 24.5k health in CP. it’s the same fun brawler gameplay as Stam Sorc with more utility and unique skills to employ. And honestly I’ve had success with slime craw, two wpn damage pieces, Veli, or just packing on even more resistances with pirate skele piece. You don’t need shuffle except for the snare removal which eases up on the sustain demand.

Morgul667

@Vapirko

hehe thanks for the advise, I have them all but I like my stamsorc and sticks with him through thick and thins... im a sentimental like that ^^

that's my main after all

Vapirko

Morgul667 wrote: »

@Vapirko

hehe thanks for the advise, I have them all but I like my stamsorc and sticks with him through thick and thins... im a sentimental like that ^^

that's my main after all

Well good luck to you then, I just couldn’t get my Stam Sorc to feel good anymore. I hate that once you drop dawnbreaker you’re pretty much just waiting for it to come back up again. It’s kind of crazy that even stamina DK has more options to it now than Stam Sorc. The fact that stamina sorc is missing 4 passives and has no class damage skill is pretty bad. Even a class dot would be great. Give stam sorcs a physical damage of curse or something.

Morgul667

Vapirko wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

@Vapirko

hehe thanks for the advise, I have them all but I like my stamsorc and sticks with him through thick and thins... im a sentimental like that ^^

that's my main after all

Well good luck to you then, I just couldn’t get my Stam Sorc to feel good anymore. I hate that once you drop dawnbreaker you’re pretty much just waiting for it to come back up again. It’s kind of crazy that even stamina DK has more options to it now than Stam Sorc. The fact that stamina sorc is missing 4 passives and has no class damage skill is pretty bad. Even a class dot would be great. Give stam sorcs a physical damage of curse or something.

I truely agree they are in a bad spot right now and appreciate your advises.

mlsweet

Aznox wrote: »

Is there even enough opposition in BG for a premade meta to appear and evolve ?

It seems a group of 4 skilled individuals using voice com and any composition with the basics covered (healing, CC, burst) would already be above 80% winrate.

Are fights between such premades frequent enough to warrant adaptation, trial-and-error, etc.. ?

Pretty much this. But I think the 3 team scenario and player skill probably do or will eclipse the issue of a lack of a population. The MMR right now is holding back more top tier matches in full try hard premade vs premade so we'll have to wait and see.

I can add that you'll be frustrated in a DM if you don't have a magsorc. If you have a solid magsorc who can time his/her resto ults with opposing ulti drops, then you can try to run 3 stam brawlers and apply a ton of pressure. You'll really be living on the edge if you don't bring a templar though. It really mostly depends on who's who though on your team vs the others.

The stamden/magsorc combo is quite a dynamic one between their offensive and defensive capabilities. Their burst time windows are almost identical, strong, and don't leave much time to react if done right. Plus, each have some group healing potential between spores/trees and healing ward/resto ult, all the while fully maintaining a DPS formatted build.

A lot of these comp suggestions are coming from some BG all-stars. I would heed their words

That being said I've seen players on each class, stam/mag, serve up quality play in a multitude of random compositions.

To me, ESO PvP (unless you are solely a duelist) is clearly a team sport. And I think it would be fair to say, that with many of the greatest teams from any sport, you can't really quantify what makes that team the best. That is a beautiful thing, and is integral to the success of ESO PvP in battlegrounds.

Lexxypwns

mlsweet wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Is there even enough opposition in BG for a premade meta to appear and evolve ?

It seems a group of 4 skilled individuals using voice com and any composition with the basics covered (healing, CC, burst) would already be above 80% winrate.

Are fights between such premades frequent enough to warrant adaptation, trial-and-error, etc.. ?

Pretty much this. But I think the 3 team scenario and player skill probably do or will eclipse the issue of a lack of a population. The MMR right now is holding back more top tier matches in full try hard premade vs premade so we'll have to wait and see.

I can add that you'll be frustrated in a DM if you don't have a magsorc. If you have a solid magsorc who can time his/her resto ults with opposing ulti drops, then you can try to run 3 stam brawlers and apply a ton of pressure. You'll really be living on the edge if you don't bring a templar though. It really mostly depends on who's who though on your team vs the others.

The stamden/magsorc combo is quite a dynamic one between their offensive and defensive capabilities. Their burst time windows are almost identical, strong, and don't leave much time to react if done right. Plus, each have some group healing potential between spores/trees and healing ward/resto ult, all the while fully maintaining a DPS formatted build.

A lot of these comp suggestions are coming from some BG all-stars. I would heed their words

That being said I've seen players on each class, stam/mag, serve up quality play in a multitude of random compositions.

To me, ESO PvP (unless you are solely a duelist) is clearly a team sport. And I think it would be fair to say, that with many of the greatest teams from any sport, you can't really quantify what makes that team the best. That is a beautiful thing, and is integral to the success of ESO PvP in battlegrounds.

You won’t ever compete with similarly skilled teams with a mag sorc “timing his resto with ulti dumps” as your healer. You absolutely have to have a healer if you’re facing a similarly skilled group that has one. The mag sorc as a healer is particularly terrible because he won’t be able to keep himself alive against focused pressure, just bait the resto then ulti dump him. The best case is that your healer abandons your team and survives while they get wiped

A healer extends your offensive windows and totally changes the way you can build, and the way you engage fights. Effectively a healer reduces issues with both cleave damage and focused pressure.

I’d also argue that having a second resto is more valuable than a third stam DPS when it’s attached to a Mag Sorc. On Xbox we’re seeing higher damage out of mag sorcs than stam sorc and obviously significantly more kills. Without a healer though, mag sorc is a free kill against organized groups

mlsweet

Lexxypwns wrote: »

mlsweet wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Is there even enough opposition in BG for a premade meta to appear and evolve ?

It seems a group of 4 skilled individuals using voice com and any composition with the basics covered (healing, CC, burst) would already be above 80% winrate.

Are fights between such premades frequent enough to warrant adaptation, trial-and-error, etc.. ?

Pretty much this. But I think the 3 team scenario and player skill probably do or will eclipse the issue of a lack of a population. The MMR right now is holding back more top tier matches in full try hard premade vs premade so we'll have to wait and see.

I can add that you'll be frustrated in a DM if you don't have a magsorc. If you have a solid magsorc who can time his/her resto ults with opposing ulti drops, then you can try to run 3 stam brawlers and apply a ton of pressure. You'll really be living on the edge if you don't bring a templar though. It really mostly depends on who's who though on your team vs the others.

The stamden/magsorc combo is quite a dynamic one between their offensive and defensive capabilities. Their burst time windows are almost identical, strong, and don't leave much time to react if done right. Plus, each have some group healing potential between spores/trees and healing ward/resto ult, all the while fully maintaining a DPS formatted build.

A lot of these comp suggestions are coming from some BG all-stars. I would heed their words

That being said I've seen players on each class, stam/mag, serve up quality play in a multitude of random compositions.

To me, ESO PvP (unless you are solely a duelist) is clearly a team sport. And I think it would be fair to say, that with many of the greatest teams from any sport, you can't really quantify what makes that team the best. That is a beautiful thing, and is integral to the success of ESO PvP in battlegrounds.

You won’t ever compete with similarly skilled teams with a mag sorc “timing his resto with ulti dumps” as your healer. You absolutely have to have a healer if you’re facing a similarly skilled group that has one. The mag sorc as a healer is particularly terrible because he won’t be able to keep himself alive against focused pressure, just bait the resto then ulti dump him. The best case is that your healer abandons your team and survives while they get wiped

A healer extends your offensive windows and totally changes the way you can build, and the way you engage fights. Effectively a healer reduces issues with both cleave damage and focused pressure.

I’d also argue that having a second resto is more valuable than a third stam DPS when it’s attached to a Mag Sorc. On Xbox we’re seeing higher damage out of mag sorcs than stam sorc and obviously significantly more kills. Without a healer though, mag sorc is a free kill against organized groups

Actually, we beat a few "similarly skilled" groups that were full 4 man premades.

I wouldn't of suggested it otherwise. Both of the premade teams we beat had a full time 1mil heals magplar, with 3 others stam dps. We went 4-1 overall that night with that comp. But we haven't grouped on those toons since then so it's pretty limited data.

I never said this was the optimal group comp either, I just wanted to suggest something TOTALLY different from everyone else's suggestion that I had some success with. It's not like I run this comp everynight and it's my top shelf.

I wouldn't expect many teams to be able to replicate that success, it's a lot of stress w/o a "dedicated" healer. Like you said if the magsorc gets baited into resto ult you're likely up *** creek, but if your stam team mates are stacking vigors well it could be different. Still a lot of weight on that resto ult. But it can be difficult to apply organized pressure on a good magsorc weaving/streaking in and out of 3 other team mates that are in turn, pressuring those going after the "healer".

But ultimately, I'm just making an argument that there isn't a full blown meta group comp. That's the point of me bringing up some obscure group comp with a magsorc as "healer lite" that actually worked vs good premades with full time healers.

Maybe it's different on console, but saying that "you absolutely have to have a healer if you’re facing a similarly skilled group that has one" is not really always the case on PC, it depends on your team.

Thogard

mlsweet wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

mlsweet wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Is there even enough opposition in BG for a premade meta to appear and evolve ?

It seems a group of 4 skilled individuals using voice com and any composition with the basics covered (healing, CC, burst) would already be above 80% winrate.

Are fights between such premades frequent enough to warrant adaptation, trial-and-error, etc.. ?

Pretty much this. But I think the 3 team scenario and player skill probably do or will eclipse the issue of a lack of a population. The MMR right now is holding back more top tier matches in full try hard premade vs premade so we'll have to wait and see.

I can add that you'll be frustrated in a DM if you don't have a magsorc. If you have a solid magsorc who can time his/her resto ults with opposing ulti drops, then you can try to run 3 stam brawlers and apply a ton of pressure. You'll really be living on the edge if you don't bring a templar though. It really mostly depends on who's who though on your team vs the others.

The stamden/magsorc combo is quite a dynamic one between their offensive and defensive capabilities. Their burst time windows are almost identical, strong, and don't leave much time to react if done right. Plus, each have some group healing potential between spores/trees and healing ward/resto ult, all the while fully maintaining a DPS formatted build.

A lot of these comp suggestions are coming from some BG all-stars. I would heed their words

That being said I've seen players on each class, stam/mag, serve up quality play in a multitude of random compositions.

To me, ESO PvP (unless you are solely a duelist) is clearly a team sport. And I think it would be fair to say, that with many of the greatest teams from any sport, you can't really quantify what makes that team the best. That is a beautiful thing, and is integral to the success of ESO PvP in battlegrounds.

You won’t ever compete with similarly skilled teams with a mag sorc “timing his resto with ulti dumps” as your healer. You absolutely have to have a healer if you’re facing a similarly skilled group that has one. The mag sorc as a healer is particularly terrible because he won’t be able to keep himself alive against focused pressure, just bait the resto then ulti dump him. The best case is that your healer abandons your team and survives while they get wiped

A healer extends your offensive windows and totally changes the way you can build, and the way you engage fights. Effectively a healer reduces issues with both cleave damage and focused pressure.

I’d also argue that having a second resto is more valuable than a third stam DPS when it’s attached to a Mag Sorc. On Xbox we’re seeing higher damage out of mag sorcs than stam sorc and obviously significantly more kills. Without a healer though, mag sorc is a free kill against organized groups

Actually, we beat more than a few "similarly skilled" groups that were full 4 man premades.

I wouldn't of suggested it otherwise. Both of the premade teams we beat had a full time 1mil heals magplar, with 3 others stam dps. We went 4-1 overall that night with that comp. But we haven't grouped on those toons since then so it's pretty limited data.

I never said this was the optimal group comp either, I just wanted to suggest something TOTALLY different from everyone else's suggestion that I had some success with. It's not like I run this comp everynight and it's my top shelf.

I wouldn't expect many teams to be able to replicate that success, it's a lot of stress w/o a "dedicated" healer. But ultimately, I'm just making an argument that there isn't a full blown meta group comp. That's the point of me bringing up some obscure group comp with a magsorc as "healer lite" that actually worked vs good premades with full time healers.

Maybe it's different on console, but saying that "you absolutely have to have a healer if you’re facing a similarly skilled group that has one" is not really always the case on PC, it depends on your team. You'd be surprised

I love you lait but he’s right and pretty much every high end small scaler knows it. Healer with push = DPS not having to go defensive = far more dmg

Strider__Roshin

Any point bringing a stamblade or a magDK? I really don't want to play my magsorc right now.

Lexxypwns

Daus wrote: »

Any point bringing a stamblade or a magDK? I really don't want to play my magsorc right now.

Stamblade is bar none the best solo Queue spec.

MDK is actually quite ok replacing the mag sorc in my suggested team comp but you’ll want to make sure you’re running chains and speed pots. Gonna be less kills but probably more actual damage than mag sorc.

Strider__Roshin

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Any point bringing a stamblade or a magDK? I really don't want to play my magsorc right now.

Stamblade is bar none the best solo Queue spec.

MDK is actually quite ok replacing the mag sorc in my suggested team comp but you’ll want to make sure you’re running chains and speed pots. Gonna be less kills but probably more actual damage than mag sorc.

What about replacing one of the stamdens with the magDK? My Ferocious Leap hits insanely hard! I'm running 5 BSW, 5 Innate Axiom, and 2 Blood Spawn.

Also I'm guessing stamblade doesn't really have a spot for competitive group play from the sounds of it?

Thogard

Daus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Any point bringing a stamblade or a magDK? I really don't want to play my magsorc right now.

Stamblade is bar none the best solo Queue spec.

MDK is actually quite ok replacing the mag sorc in my suggested team comp but you’ll want to make sure you’re running chains and speed pots. Gonna be less kills but probably more actual damage than mag sorc.

What about replacing one of the stamdens with the magDK? My Ferocious Leap hits insanely hard! I'm running 5 BSW, 5 Innate Axiom, and 2 Blood Spawn.

Also I'm guessing stamblade doesn't really have a spot for competitive group play from the sounds of it?

It would be a niche spot. Fear is still really strong. Incap is still really strong.

It’s just that cloak as a defense doesn’t synergize at all with the rest of the team’s defense.

Strider__Roshin

Thogard wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Any point bringing a stamblade or a magDK? I really don't want to play my magsorc right now.

Stamblade is bar none the best solo Queue spec.

MDK is actually quite ok replacing the mag sorc in my suggested team comp but you’ll want to make sure you’re running chains and speed pots. Gonna be less kills but probably more actual damage than mag sorc.

What about replacing one of the stamdens with the magDK? My Ferocious Leap hits insanely hard! I'm running 5 BSW, 5 Innate Axiom, and 2 Blood Spawn.

Also I'm guessing stamblade doesn't really have a spot for competitive group play from the sounds of it?

It would be a niche spot. Fear is still really strong. Incap is still really strong.

It’s just that cloak as a defense doesn’t synergize at all with the rest of the team’s defense.

That's no biggie. I don't use cloak lol. What about the use of Bolstering Darkness or Soul Siphon? I can see a stamblade being beneficial when it comes to ults. Unfortunately their normal abilities don't really offer anything as beneficial as say Subterranean Assault or Mage's Fury.

Lexxypwns

Daus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Any point bringing a stamblade or a magDK? I really don't want to play my magsorc right now.

Stamblade is bar none the best solo Queue spec.

MDK is actually quite ok replacing the mag sorc in my suggested team comp but you’ll want to make sure you’re running chains and speed pots. Gonna be less kills but probably more actual damage than mag sorc.

What about replacing one of the stamdens with the magDK? My Ferocious Leap hits insanely hard! I'm running 5 BSW, 5 Innate Axiom, and 2 Blood Spawn.

Also I'm guessing stamblade doesn't really have a spot for competitive group play from the sounds of it?

Leap doesn’t go through block. The damage from Sub and DB do.

Sadly there’s just no replacing a stam warden at all when you’re talking about optimizing, even if you match their damage on an mDK it’s not going to be as impactful since stam warden damage is just Burst after Burst and is not only harder to counter but easier to synchronize with other damage(more wardens lol). In addition mDK offers nowhere near the utility of stam warden so you lose your synchronized burst and lots of off heals.

I do want to say that outside of having 1 Templar and 1 Dedicated healer(Templar or magden) as well as proper group support sets covered you’ll generally be able to compete with any damage oriented builds sprinkled in.

If you wanted to build a stamblade into a high end group comp you really need to work around it. Stamblade should have Troll King and Powerful Assault and should probably be in heavy(or guarded) so you can brawl. Since you’re getting Troll and Courage from your NB your magplar can run Trans+Riposte so you get both defensive buffs. From there I’d want a Stamden(guard optional) to run Durok’s.

It’s not that you can’t fit Stamblade into a group and be ultra competitive with it, it’s that it’s easier for other specs to fit their typical playstyle into the BG meta, but if you’ve got a group you regularly run with then you can 100% be a strong contributor regardless of the class limitations. It’s just when you try to run no healer or lack defiles or things like that where you’re really doomed before you start.

For all of Stamdens value and strength it’s soft countered by Stamblade so there’s definitely opportunity there for you to outplay other groups and still win, but you will have to outplay them

Koensol

Daus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Any point bringing a stamblade or a magDK? I really don't want to play my magsorc right now.

Stamblade is bar none the best solo Queue spec.

MDK is actually quite ok replacing the mag sorc in my suggested team comp but you’ll want to make sure you’re running chains and speed pots. Gonna be less kills but probably more actual damage than mag sorc.

What about replacing one of the stamdens with the magDK? My Ferocious Leap hits insanely hard! I'm running 5 BSW, 5 Innate Axiom, and 2 Blood Spawn.

Also I'm guessing stamblade doesn't really have a spot for competitive group play from the sounds of it?

It would be a niche spot. Fear is still really strong. Incap is still really strong.

It’s just that cloak as a defense doesn’t synergize at all with the rest of the team’s defense.

That's no biggie. I don't use cloak lol. What about the use of Bolstering Darkness or Soul Siphon? I can see a stamblade being beneficial when it comes to ults. Unfortunately their normal abilities don't really offer anything as beneficial as say Subterranean Assault or Mage's Fury.

Both are amazing ults indeed. Bolstering darkness got a nice buff in Summerset. The amount of mitigation it gives the group is insane for such a long duration.

Soul siphon is (imo) the best healing ult in the game. Highest amount of healing, has a burst component followed by a hot, huge 360 degrees range, gives major vitality AND a synergy. It will heal through any ult dump and is stronger than resto ult.

I would still take magblade over stamblade though, because magblade has more support in its kit through the native heals they provide and the ability to root people. Funnel health, refreshing path, healing ward and maybe also rapid regen is a really nice amount of healing you can add to your group while not having to really sacrifice in damage. The stationary morph of fear can also be of great value when timed with ult dumps.

That is why I think a magblade can be a nice addition to your group, especially when running SPC, which will proc a lot from their hots. In my eyes it is the ideal addition to a templar healer (if you have one), because it provides them a lot of relief through contstant hots and the ability to fear people off the main healer, root them and assist in providing supportive ults when needed. Mobility isn't an issue. Refreshing path + sprint lets you stay with the group with relative ease.

mlsweet

I should of known better than to recommend a group comp without heals

Thogard

mlsweet wrote: »

I should of known better than to recommend a group comp without heals

Don’t forget purify either.

callen4492

For deathmatch, all magsorcs. Mahes wrath on everybody

Zatox

pretty optimised group

Lichbourne90

Zatox wrote: »

pretty optimised group

Looks like a L2P issue to me jk of course

Gprime31

2 heal guards 2 high dps working well

ReName

stam warden high brust
mag scors high burts
magtemp normal dps with heals
mag dk tanky for cc spams