What Kinds of Mysteries hide in the Blackmarsh?

Vanthras79

Argonia seems like it has been largely undiscovered by Imperial scholars and the like, What mysteries delve within the unexplored and/or forgotten bogs of Tamriel? Is there ancient civilizations other than Argonians and Naga left to be discovered? New creatures? Portals to the outer realms? A lost tribe of Dwarfs, or Wild Elves?!

What do you think?

TelvanniWizard

The tiranny of the evil Hist. Beware, free people, it will try to control your mind and turn you into an aztec hippy!

Sixty5

You know what is in black marsh?

Mud, Mosquitos and Lizard People.

And also some rather nasty tropical diseases.

I'd rather go to Summerset tbh.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I hope we find some remnants of the Limothiit--abandoned artifacts and such--and get more background on the Kothringi and the Barsaebic Ayleids. I'd like to see some more new monsters too. And background on the Xanmeers and how the Saxhleel went from those to mud huts. And of course more information on the Shadowscales - how did they start, how do they differ from the vanilla Dark Brotherhood, etc.

crashen17b14_ESO

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I hope we find some remnants of the Limothiit--abandoned artifacts and such--and get more background on the Kothringi and the Barsaebic Ayleids. I'd like to see some more new monsters too. And background on the Xanmeers and how the Saxhleel went from those to mud huts. And of course more information on the Shadowscales - how did they start, how do they differ from the vanilla Dark Brotherhood, etc.

I have a crackpot theory that the Hist didn't actually uplift the Saxhleel, but instead enslaved them and degenerated them. I think the Saxhleel were just like any other race, descended from the et'ada, and had a highly advanced (perhaps the most advanced at the time) civilization. Only later did the Hist come into the picture, addicting them to the Sap, subverting their culture and turning them from pyramid-building sorceror-kings into mud-hut dwelling tree-licking perpetual-slaves.

The Hist actually seem pretty bad for Argonians, in my opinion. They can take control of them as a species at will, drastically alter their physiology, and bear a questionable degree of control over their reproductive cycle. They supercharged the Argonians to the point that they were able to invade the Deadlands and make Dagon shut down the Oblivion Gates from his side, yet they can't stop the Dark Elves from repeatedly enslaving them en mass for THOUSANDS of years.

I don't like the Hist, is what I am saying.

Skander

A new class Zeni is hiding

WhiteCoatSyndrome

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

I have a crackpot theory that the Hist didn't actually uplift the Saxhleel, but instead enslaved them and degenerated them. I think the Saxhleel were just like any other race, descended from the et'ada, and had a highly advanced (perhaps the most advanced at the time) civilization. Only later did the Hist come into the picture, addicting them to the Sap, subverting their culture and turning them from pyramid-building sorceror-kings into mud-hut dwelling tree-licking perpetual-slaves.

The Hist actually seem pretty bad for Argonians, in my opinion. They can take control of them as a species at will, drastically alter their physiology, and bear a questionable degree of control over their reproductive cycle. They supercharged the Argonians to the point that they were able to invade the Deadlands and make Dagon shut down the Oblivion Gates from his side, yet they can't stop the Dark Elves from repeatedly enslaving them en mass for THOUSANDS of years.

I don't like the Hist, is what I am saying.

I like your crackpot theory. Given that they can control the Saxhleel and physically super charge them, if your theory is correct it might be less that they can't stop the Dunmer enslaving the Saxhleel and more that they don't care enough to stop the Dunmer enslaving the Saxhleel. If Therana's attitude about 'worshiping trees' is typical of the Dunmer, the Dunmer might not be doing anything to the Hist directly.

Shardan4968

Hist is not divine that can just create some crystal to keep Dunmers far away from Black Marsh or some living God to stop moonleet in the sky. This whole theory about Hist making Argonians leave Xanmeers for mud houses is destroyed after quest in Coldharbour where Hist agreed to make a deal with Molag Bal and suffer eternal pain just so its children will be still powerful and proud tribe living in Xanmeer. Hist doesn't care about world politics and don't take part in wars. What if changing your sap is not so easy that you can just do it anytime to try saving few Argonian slaves? Why Khajiti Gods don't help slaves? Why Azura, Mephala and Boethia won't help Dunmers during Red Year? Why Akatosh won't help Empire in war with Thalmor? Why Auri-El didn't help Altmers during invasion from Thras? Is that means all these deities don't care about their worshippers, because they don't interfere in wars of mortal races? Hist doesn't decide about laws in Saxhleel society, but soul of every Argonian born with the Hist belongs to it and will return there after death of Argonian's physical form. You could also say that Bosmers are slaves of Y'ffre, because of Green Pact they've signed long ago. Penalty for picking a single flower is death, but Y'ffre can't stop every Bosmer from doing this, they can just leave Valenwood. Same with Argonians, yes they are all connected to the Hist, but the further Saxhleel is from Black Marsh the weaker this connection is and Hist can't stop them and there's no death penalty what so ever, because Hist is just an ancient race of trees that can't magically drop rock on your head.

TelvanniWizard

Slaves of a tree, sad condition, that of the argonians in Black Marsh...

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Shardan4968 wrote: »

This whole theory about Hist making Argonians leave Xanmeers for mud houses is destroyed after quest in Coldharbour where Hist agreed to make a deal with Molag Bal and suffer eternal pain just so its children will be still powerful and proud tribe living in Xanmeer.

A Hist. And there were Ayleids that sided with St. Alessia during the slave revolt too. That doesn't actually prove anything except that the Hist aren't as unified as they may want to appear...which is also underscored during the Ruins of Mazzatun quest and the main plot of the Keyes books, so not really surprising.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Hist doesn't care about world politics and don't take part in wars.

Yet they sent representatives to join the Ebonheart Pact. As a side note, this doesn't actually disprove the crackpot theory - time is odd for Hist, so it's possible they knew about the upcoming Planemeld and just were preparing for that, and/or the invasion by the Dominion since they WERE attacking Hist trees directly.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why Khajiti Gods don't help slaves?

Citation needed - what makes you think they don't?

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why Azura, Mephala and Boethia won't help Dunmers during Red Year?

They did - or at least Azura did. Recall the Dunmer built her a GIANT shrine in Skyrim as a thank-you for getting them out.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why Akatosh won't help Empire in war with Thalmor? Why Auri-El didn't help Altmers during invasion from Thras?

Again, citation needed - just because Akatosh didn't show up in all his flaming glory to vaporize the lot of them doesn't mean he's not, say, sending his lastborn to pick a fight with them in Skyrim. And Syrabane helped out during the Thrassian Plague.

Tl:dr; your argument seems to be that the Hist don't interfere because they can't. We've seen that they can, and occasionally, they do - what hasn't been answered is why not more often? Are they just that laid back? Do they consider the people taken from the border tribes 'acceptable losses' not worth bothering over? Is the Tribunal too strong for them to fight directly? Are they just busy doing other things? We don't know, and @crashen17b14_ESO 's crackpot theory is interesting. Maybe the lore will disprove it later, but the fact is we just don't have that much knowledge of Black Marsh yet. Maybe if we get Murkmire some time soon.

crashen17b14_ESO

Lets not forget that the Dunmer have been raiding blackmarsh and enslaving argonians for THOUSANDS of years, spanning multiple eras. Not just a few every so often.

As for the solitary Hist in Coldharbour... it made a deal with the prince of *** to trap itself and it's worshippers in a pair of mouldering pyramids in LITERAL HELL forever. Yeah it endured torture and harvest at the hands of daedra, but the argonians that worshipped it are cut off from the mortal world in a frigid hellscape for eternity.

That is not the action of a kind and benevolent deity that wants its people to prosper and grow.

dodgehopper_ESO

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

This whole theory about Hist making Argonians leave Xanmeers for mud houses is destroyed after quest in Coldharbour where Hist agreed to make a deal with Molag Bal and suffer eternal pain just so its children will be still powerful and proud tribe living in Xanmeer.

A Hist. And there were Ayleids that sided with St. Alessia during the slave revolt too. That doesn't actually prove anything except that the Hist aren't as unified as they may want to appear...which is also underscored during the Ruins of Mazzatun quest and the main plot of the Keyes books, so not really surprising.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Hist doesn't care about world politics and don't take part in wars.

Yet they sent representatives to join the Ebonheart Pact. As a side note, this doesn't actually disprove the crackpot theory - time is odd for Hist, so it's possible they knew about the upcoming Planemeld and just were preparing for that, and/or the invasion by the Dominion since they WERE attacking Hist trees directly.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why Khajiti Gods don't help slaves?

Citation needed - what makes you think they don't?

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why Azura, Mephala and Boethia won't help Dunmers during Red Year?

They did - or at least Azura did. Recall the Dunmer built her a GIANT shrine in Skyrim as a thank-you for getting them out.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why Akatosh won't help Empire in war with Thalmor? Why Auri-El didn't help Altmers during invasion from Thras?

Again, citation needed - just because Akatosh didn't show up in all his flaming glory to vaporize the lot of them doesn't mean he's not, say, sending his lastborn to pick a fight with them in Skyrim. And Syrabane helped out during the Thrassian Plague.

Tl:dr; your argument seems to be that the Hist don't interfere because they can't. We've seen that they can, and occasionally, they do - what hasn't been answered is why not more often? Are they just that laid back? Do they consider the people taken from the border tribes 'acceptable losses' not worth bothering over? Is the Tribunal too strong for them to fight directly? Are they just busy doing other things? We don't know, and @crashen17b14_ESO 's crackpot theory is interesting. Maybe the lore will disprove it later, but the fact is we just don't have that much knowledge of Black Marsh yet. Maybe if we get Murkmire some time soon.

On the matter of Akatosh... I'd like to point out that Akatosh probably isn't the same thing as Auri-El. In fact if such entities are entities and not merely forces of nature in the series, I think Akatosh is the result of Auri-El and Lorkhan becoming one. I do not think Lorkhan/Shor failed. This was his trick. It is interesting to note that the symbol for Lorkhan and the symbol for Auri-El when combined look surprisingly like a dragon (Snake + Eagle). I'm not the first person to bring this point up. The only point I'm making here is that these things are not so clear in the story. We can make conjecture but like in real life a lot of things are left to mystery. I would also argue that the Dragonborn such as Talos is the manifestation of Akatosh's will on Nirn or at least is supposed to be. In Skyrim I believe this is why the Thalmor hate the Dragonborn character so much. They know who and what such a character represents. Its interesting as well that the Dragonborn hero is destined to hold the Bow of Auri el. Why would he wield the Bow of Auriel? Why is it in his hands to shut out the day sky or curse the creatures of the night? A lot of the series has a certain Jungian element to it so you have to look at the myth with a bit of strange logic. I think the Jungian model probably works best and is where the writers were coming from.

At any regard I don't know if it is clear whether the Hist are a force of good or bad. Its quite possible the Hist do mean well but they are themselves holding onto existence with some other force pulling at their strings. The Molag Bal quest someone cited here specifically shows how a Daedric Prince was able to control a Hist tree. I don't recall it being a willing acquiescence and generally speaking that's not now Molag Bal works.

Vanthras79

Whoa this thread has gone off topic, but this is the lore section....

Shardan4968

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

This whole theory about Hist making Argonians leave Xanmeers for mud houses is destroyed after quest in Coldharbour where Hist agreed to make a deal with Molag Bal and suffer eternal pain just so its children will be still powerful and proud tribe living in Xanmeer.

A Hist. And there were Ayleids that sided with St. Alessia during the slave revolt too. That doesn't actually prove anything except that the Hist aren't as unified as they may want to appear...which is also underscored during the Ruins of Mazzatun quest and the main plot of the Keyes books, so not really surprising.

Yes, Hist is not one organism controlling every big tree in Black Marsh, which isn't anything new. So how do you know that no Hist helped Argonians ever? As I said, what If changing your sap is not so easy thing to do on such big scale as during Oblivion Crisis when whole region is in danger? Why ancient race which was once completely destroyed by ehlnofey would want to change their protectors into army of argonian behemoths to conquer whole Morrowind, which in return would increase interest of other races that wouldn't exactly appreciate the army of beasts capable of invading one of the strongest provinces that could attack them anytime.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Hist doesn't care about world politics and don't take part in wars.

Yet they sent representatives to join the Ebonheart Pact. As a side note, this doesn't actually disprove the crackpot theory - time is odd for Hist, so it's possible they knew about the upcoming Planemeld and just were preparing for that, and/or the invasion by the Dominion since they WERE attacking Hist trees directly.

Yet they allowed Dominion soldier to pass trials in Hissmir and admitted that they don't care about politics and war. And again, If Hist forseen invasion of the Dominion and Planemeld, why they didn't changed their sap and buffed Argonian race to win the war and close Dark Anchors? Maybe they weren't ready, or strong enough. Maybe it's not that easy.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why Khajiti Gods don't help slaves?

Citation needed - what makes you think they don't?

Because Dunmers were enslaving Khajiits for THOUSANDS of years and you seem that you believe If Hist didn't organised high scale slave liberation for Argonians proves that they don't care in any way about their lizard folk.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Tl:dr; your argument seems to be that the Hist don't interfere because they can't. We've seen that they can, and occasionally, they do - what hasn't been answered is why not more often? Are they just that laid back? Do they consider the people taken from the border tribes 'acceptable losses' not worth bothering over? Is the Tribunal too strong for them to fight directly? Are they just busy doing other things? We don't know, and @crashen17b14_ESO 's crackpot theory is interesting. Maybe the lore will disprove it later, but the fact is we just don't have that much knowledge of Black Marsh yet. Maybe if we get Murkmire some time soon.

I don't see much sense in Hist turning Argonians into sap addicted slaves, if Saxhleel were adoring Hist long before they stopped living in these big pyramids, this is proven by the fact that they builded their cities with Hist in the centre. And why would Hist want to make Argonians weaker, If they are supposed to protect and watch over the Hist.

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Lets not forget that the Dunmer have been raiding blackmarsh and enslaving argonians for THOUSANDS of years, spanning multiple eras. Not just a few every so often.

As for the solitary Hist in Coldharbour... it made a deal with the prince of *** to trap itself and it's worshippers in a pair of mouldering pyramids in LITERAL HELL forever. Yeah it endured torture and harvest at the hands of daedra, but the argonians that worshipped it are cut off from the mortal world in a frigid hellscape for eternity.

That is not the action of a kind and benevolent deity that wants its people to prosper and grow.

Deals with Daedric princes are not that simple. I think it was more like Molag Bal came to the Hist and said "Gimme your sap and I will make your tribe stay in Xanmeers". But Argonians there are not in danger of any daedra, as long as they are not trying to break the deal and prevent Molag Bal forces from collecting sap (that's why they ask Vestige for help). Argonian tribes usually keep to themselves so I don't think they suffer much.

crashen17b14_ESO

Besides the whole "confined to one small corner of Coldharbour for all eternity" thing, yeah sure that Hist TOTALLY gave its argonians a great deal!

What exactly did that Hist gain from that deal? The argonians get to live in a couple crappy pyramids?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Yes, Hist is not one organism controlling every big tree in Black Marsh, which isn't anything new. So how do you know that no Hist helped Argonians ever?

If you read what you quoted, you'll note I allow for the possibility of a few outliers among the Hist; one of the general themes of the Elder Scrolls series is that just because the majority of a people are a certain way that doesn't mean they ALL are. So just because one or two Hist were willing to self-sacrifice to protect their Saxhleel tribe, doesn't mean the majority of them couldn't have mind-controlled a thriving independent civilization into being dependant on the Hist for everything.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

As I said, what If changing your sap is not so easy thing to do on such big scale as during Oblivion Crisis when whole region is in danger?

We've seen that they make things with their sap in the Keyes books; they were farmed regularly, so it appears to take no special effort. And precisely because we know they're capable of doing region-wide changes on a relatively swift timeframe, doing region-wide changes on a much slower timeframe should be easier, if anything – more time to prepare, more time to stockpile any resources needed, change their minions into super warriors, etc.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why ancient race which was once completely destroyed by ehlnofey would want to change their protectors into army of argonian behemoths to conquer whole Morrowind, which in return would increase interest of other races that wouldn't exactly appreciate the army of beasts capable of invading one of the strongest provinces that could attack them anytime.

Your argument as written here makes no sense – I'm assuming by 'ancient race' you mean the Hist, but they weren't completely destroyed or there wouldn't be any of them left, and we've seen several of them. And Morrowind wasn't a strong province by any stretch of the imagination when they invaded – recall that was AFTER Baar Dau hit and Red Mountain erupted.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Yet they allowed Dominion soldier to pass trials in Hissmir and admitted that they don't care about politics and war. And again, If Hist forseen invasion of the Dominion and Planemeld, why they didn't changed their sap and buffed Argonian race to win the war and close Dark Anchors? Maybe they weren't ready, or strong enough. Maybe it's not that easy.

Again, they sent representatives to the Ebonheart Pact. They arranged for the Saxhleel to help fight off the Akaviri, Heita-Meen tells us so:

In the Archein village, a vision came to me. Their Hist tree spoke, showing me blood and horror—the Akaviri invasion, Nords and Dunmer falling like dead leaves.

They care about politics and war.

Shardan4968 wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why Khajiti Gods don't help slaves?

Citation needed - what makes you think they don't?

Because Dunmers were enslaving Khajiits for THOUSANDS of years and you seem that you believe If Hist didn't organised high scale slave liberation for Argonians proves that they don't care in any way about their lizard folk.

Please note: the Dunmer enslave everyone else too, including each other. That doesn't actually prove the gods of other cultures haven't intervened to free their people who were enslaved, foil slavers etc. So you have no proof of that one way or another.

What we can prove is:
--The Hist successfully invaded the Deadlands
--The Hist did not invade Morrowind until the beginning of the Fourth Era, despite repeated provocation over a far longer stretch of time than Dagon's invasion, leaving plenty of time to prepare and execute a counterattack if they so chose.

They had both the power and the incentive, so why do nothing?

Shardan4968 wrote: »

I don't see much sense in Hist turning Argonians into sap addicted slaves, if Saxhleel were adoring Hist long before they stopped living in these big pyramids, this is proven by the fact that they builded their cities with Hist in the centre. And why would Hist want to make Argonians weaker, If they are supposed to protect and watch over the Hist.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Cite your sources if you have them because as it is, it looks like your arguments have no basis in the actual game world.

Ratzkifal

"A giant Argonian dung pile. Now who's the silly one?"

MythicEmperor

A well-hidden slave factory where Argonians are produced

WakeYourGhost

Lots of Dead Dunmer... Like, a truly absurd amount of dead Dunmer.

TelvanniWizard

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Lots of Dead Dunmer... Like, a truly absurd amount of dead Dunmer.

Probably those foolish Dres...

WakeYourGhost

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Lots of Dead Dunmer... Like, a truly absurd amount of dead Dunmer.

Probably those foolish Dres...

Ohh, of course. The Argonians, like the Khajiit, should not be taken lightly.
Targeting the weak and isolated can make certain foolish Dunmer feel far too confident.

ArchMikem

The region of Shadowfen is only as far as the Dunmeri Slavers dare to venture, or, care to. Why bother travelling further away if you can get the same thing closer to home?

Argonia proper is a much more established civilization. Argonians of their homeland are master stonemasons building elaborate Pyramids and stone housing. The harsh swamps around the edges are their buffer and perhaps saving grace, since if these weren't in play, either the Dunmer, or Imperials, or both would've subjugated or destroyed their people long ago.

We've been shown that deeper into Black Marsh is actually full of lush tropical rainforests combined with rolling hills and plains. Just look at the background landscape the next time you're in the Ruins of Mazzatun, it's gorgeous.

Shardan4968

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Yes, Hist is not one organism controlling every big tree in Black Marsh, which isn't anything new. So how do you know that no Hist helped Argonians ever?

If you read what you quoted, you'll note I allow for the possibility of a few outliers among the Hist; one of the general themes of the Elder Scrolls series is that just because the majority of a people are a certain way that doesn't mean they ALL are. So just because one or two Hist were willing to self-sacrifice to protect their Saxhleel tribe, doesn't mean the majority of them couldn't have mind-controlled a thriving independent civilization into being dependant on the Hist for everything.

We don't know whether it would be just a few outliers or majority If Molag Bal wanted to make a deal with more than one tree. If Argonians are mind-controlled slaves, then how will you explain Argonian tribe in Grahtwood that left Hist for Y'ffre? Tree-Minder decided to become a Spinner, is this how Hist controls its slaves?

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Why ancient race which was once completely destroyed by ehlnofey would want to change their protectors into army of argonian behemoths to conquer whole Morrowind, which in return would increase interest of other races that wouldn't exactly appreciate the army of beasts capable of invading one of the strongest provinces that could attack them anytime.

Your argument as written here makes no sense – I'm assuming by 'ancient race' you mean the Hist, but they weren't completely destroyed or there wouldn't be any of them left, and we've seen several of them. And Morrowind wasn't a strong province by any stretch of the imagination when they invaded – recall that was AFTER Baar Dau hit and Red Mountain erupted.

Yeah, my mistake I ate word "almost". I meant that war of ehlnofey made Black Marsh the only place where Hists are in Tamriel now. But I don't know where did you find anything about Red Year in the text you quoted and you missed the point. Before eruption and fall of Baar Dau, Morrowind was truly one of the strongest provinces and those were the times when they enslaved Argonians. If Hist united then and made an army of super warriors (which still wouldn't guarantee success in war against the living gods), they would not only declare open war to Morrowind, but to the whole Empire that would need to pacify them. Maybe it isn't the wisest way to help Argonian slaves for Hist. After all we know that Shadowscales are often helping slaves escape, so they are not completely left on their own.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Yet they allowed Dominion soldier to pass trials in Hissmir and admitted that they don't care about politics and war. And again, If Hist forseen invasion of the Dominion and Planemeld, why they didn't changed their sap and buffed Argonian race to win the war and close Dark Anchors? Maybe they weren't ready, or strong enough. Maybe it's not that easy.

Again, they sent representatives to the Ebonheart Pact. They arranged for the Saxhleel to help fight off the Akaviri, Heita-Meen tells us so:

They didn't send any representatives. All you can read from this text is that Heita-Meen received a vision from the Hist about Dunmers and Nords losing war with Akaviri. Hist didn't told her to help their slavers, this was her interpretation of the vision, she even called it "my strategy". Someone other could say that Hist wanted to tell Heita-Meen to fear not, because cruel Dunmers will die soon and Argonians should gather in Black Marsh to defense it from weakened Kamal. There's even written that only tribes from Thornmarsh, Shadowfen and Murkmire joined Heita-Meen's cause and it proves that Hist either doesn't control minds of Argonians or doesn't care about Three Banners War.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

I don't see much sense in Hist turning Argonians into sap addicted slaves, if Saxhleel were adoring Hist long before they stopped living in these big pyramids, this is proven by the fact that they builded their cities with Hist in the centre. And why would Hist want to make Argonians weaker, If they are supposed to protect and watch over the Hist.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Cite your sources if you have them because as it is, it looks like your arguments have no basis in the actual game world.

Haj Uxith, Hatching Pools and Mazzatun, these are the places where Argonians built their Xanmeers with big Hist in the centre. As we know Hist was here before Argonians, so why would Saxhleel build it If by this theory Hist tells them to build mud and wooden houses instead? And why Hist would even want their "minions" to stop living in stone pyramids?