What did Vivec see in Molag Bal?

Minyassa

They were a couple. So...why? Was Vivec evil then? Was Molag Bal *less* evil then? Was he the Daedric Prince of something else and became what he is now after their split? Did Vivec have some sort of longterm scheme himself? Am I giving Vivec too much credit for depth and it was all about Molag Bal's big spear? I just can't even with this ship, it boggles the mind.

Sixty5

He definitely wanted that spear.

elias.stormneb18_ESO

They weren't a couple. It's not like Vivec wanted what happened. He did it to receive knowledge of CHIM from Molag Bal – to receive power. From Sermon 12:

"'I told you,' Vivec said, 'I am meant to be the teacher of the king of the earth. AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME.'

With these magic words, the King of [***] added another: 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty. Vivec had what he needed from the Daedroth and so married him that day."

NordSwordnBoard

Warrior Poet Prostitute - for the people of course, not for himself. Instead of a "Sword of Damocles" hanging over Vivec's head, he has a meteor hanging over everyone's head in his city. Vivec is still better than the madwife...

Sotha Sil is just so much better than the other two its immeasurable.

Kierro

Don't forget the tasting and biting of the spear

VaranisArano

Well, depending on which version of just happened at Red Mountain with the tools of Kagrenac that you subscribe to, Vivec may or may not have helped murder Nerevar.

Also, the whole "worship me or your unbelief will drop a moonlet on your heads (that I could totally remove at any time until its too late, oops, sorry 4th era Vvardenfell)" thing...

Vivec has his own morality going on, or at least, likes to think he does.

Kierro

Is it weird I want to see what Vivec looks like without his loincloth?

Minyassa

Kierro wrote: »

Is it weird I want to see what Vivec looks like without his loincloth?

I think he wants you to want that.

I am kinda curious if the half and half color scheme is all over.

Chaos2088

Yeah Vivec wanted power and hey maybe he likes been told what to do in some areas of his life....if ya get me *wink wink*

WakeYourGhost

Keep in mind that Vivec's sermons were like a Fanfiction he wrote about himself, the Daedra, and various other figures and beings - One which he used stole Divine Power to Force in to reality..
In his own way, he Violated Molag Bal by forcing him in to his story where he used Molag Bal and ended up biting off his "Spear"

In all seriousness, the Daedra are not "Evil", they are Amoral at best - Past their own aspect and fulfilling it's objectives, they have no standing morality or strong-founded opinions on much of anything.
Also, keep in mind, the "Divines", the Aedra, are the same way.

Also, Vivec isn't an Innocent Heroic Deity - He is a manipulator, and when it serves him, a murderer. He Stole divine power against an oath sworn to a friend and before the God he worshiped - And he likely murdered that same friend to assure he could take that power for himself.

VaranisArano

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

In all seriousness, the Daedra are not "Evil", they are Amoral at best - Past their own aspect and fulfilling it's objectives, they have no standing morality or strong-founded opinions on much of anything.
Also, keep in mind, the "Divines", the Aedra, are the same way.

In TES IV: Oblivion, we see some more of the morality of the Divines, and I'd call it "Good, but not nice". Take Stendarr for example in the Knights of the Nine expansion.

A knight of Stendarr strikes down a beggar while wearing the gloves of Stendarr. Stendarr then curses him and his descendents with a wasting disease that can only be removed by someone willing to take the curse upon themselves. Stendarr is good, but he is not a nice guy.

Zenithar, that unprepossessing divine of commerce, craftsmen, and trade, is absolutely prepared to let people drive themselves to despair trying to claim his mace if they don't also give reverence to Kynareth by claiming her boots from her trial (which involves showing your respect for nature by letting a giant bear maul your face.)

Akatosh certainly created the Dragonfires to guard mortals against wholesale daedra summoning, but reestablishing the dragonfires and fixing potentially world ending catastrophes seems to have a habit of ending in self-sacrifice, and that's not even bringing up Alduin.

Xvorg

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Also, Vivec isn't an Innocent Heroic Deity - He is a manipulator, and when it serves him, a murderer. He Stole divine power against an oath sworn to a friend and before the God he worshiped - And he likely murdered that same friend to assure he could take that power for himself.

TBH, I doubt the Tribunal killed Nerevar, though I do believe they went against Azura's will.

By the way, If Vivec killed a friend, then Nerevar did the same with Dumac

VaranisArano

Xvorg wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Also, Vivec isn't an Innocent Heroic Deity - He is a manipulator, and when it serves him, a murderer. He Stole divine power against an oath sworn to a friend and before the God he worshiped - And he likely murdered that same friend to assure he could take that power for himself.

TBH, I doubt the Tribunal killed Nerevar, though I do believe they went against Azura's will.

By the way, If Vivec killed a friend, then Nerevar did the same with Dumac

No? Dumac vanished when Kagrenac used the tools to make all the Dwemer disappear. We don't know what happened to the Dwemer.

Did you mean Dagoth Ur? Because Dagoth Ur does seem rather perturbed that the Nerevarine doesn't want to be on his side.

Xvorg

VaranisArano wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Also, Vivec isn't an Innocent Heroic Deity - He is a manipulator, and when it serves him, a murderer. He Stole divine power against an oath sworn to a friend and before the God he worshiped - And he likely murdered that same friend to assure he could take that power for himself.

TBH, I doubt the Tribunal killed Nerevar, though I do believe they went against Azura's will.

By the way, If Vivec killed a friend, then Nerevar did the same with Dumac

No? Dumac vanished when Kagrenac used the tools to make all the Dwemer disappear. We don't know what happened to the Dwemer.

Did you mean Dagoth Ur? Because Dagoth Ur does seem rather perturbed that the Nerevarine doesn't want to be on his side.

There are several versions, in one of them, Nerevar killed Dumac, in others is Dagoth Ur. And of course is the version that Dumac dissapeared.

Anyway, it's a story that deserves a movie, same as Reman III assasination...

BigBadVolk

His ***

WakeYourGhost

@Xvorg, @VaranisArano -
It was a Dragon Break because of the use of the anumidium and the power of the Heart of Lorkhan; All version happened at the same time - Including the conflicting version of who exactly was fighting against whom. The Nords and Chimer together against the Dwemer, the Dwemer and Chimer against the Nords, all three against one another - All versions are true. Even Vivec "himself" recalls it differently every so often.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Akatosh certainly created the Dragonfires to guard mortals against wholesale daedra summoning

..Or Akatosh created the Dragonfires and made the pact to protect his plane as any Daedric Prince would protect their own..?
Motivation is difficult to lay down for "Godly" beings. Ultimately, their main focus is still on their own interests and their own sphere of influence.
They teach lessons at the cost of innocent people if it helps further their desires..
You can't really say they are all that Good.. At best, more affable, honestly.

...On the other hand, the Redguard Gods really do seem to Care about their people - So much so, they approve of genocide if it gives their people more room to live comfortably.

VaranisArano

I'm not sure I buy the use of a Dragon Break to explain what happened at Red Mountain when the Dwemer disappeared and Nerevar's Tribunal found the tools of Lorkhan, when the idea that its ancient history that everyone has their own version it suits them to tell will suffice. Its quite unlike the end of Daggerfall, which is explicitly a Dragon Break.

Xvorg

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not sure I buy the use of a Dragon Break to explain what happened at Red Mountain when the Dwemer disappeared and Nerevar's Tribunal found the tools of Lorkhan, when the idea that its ancient history that everyone has their own version it suits them to tell will suffice. Its quite unlike the end of Daggerfall, which is explicitly a Dragon Break.

Though it is an insteresting perspective, I don't think that the Battle of the Red Mountain was a Dragon Break too. If that's the case, there should be time lines in which Nerevar survives, other in which Kagrenac accomplishes his purpose, and some other in which are the Dunmer, not the Dwemer who dissaperaed, for example.

Fact is, Nerevar died, Dwemer dissapeared, Tribunal ascended and Nords were expelled from Morrowind. What we just have are different perspectives from the same event, not different events occurring at the same time.

WakeYourGhost

Any time the Anumedium is activated, it causes a Dragon Break - Such as the "Red Moment" that saw a very short-lived one in which the Dwemer vanished, the Tribunal Ascended, and aspects of History became confused and cluttered.

You couldn't honestly claim that "Every possible event ever" can happen in a Dragon Break - It simply ends up being several possible instances of the same event in various controlled permutations. The Dwemer made an error when they tapped the power of the Heart and activated the Walk-Brass, and ended up displaced from time through the Dragon-Break because of their attunement to the heart. All other events were effected in ripples by this "short"-lived Dragon Break, causing the different events to become true to different observers of the situation. Those who achieved Godhead during this time seem to remember multiple versions of the events all at once, as is implied by Vivec.

I_killed_Vivec

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Any time the Anumedium is activated, it causes a Dragon Break - Such as the "Red Moment" that saw a very short-lived one in which the Dwemer vanished, the Tribunal Ascended, and aspects of History became confused and cluttered.

You couldn't honestly claim that "Every possible event ever" can happen in a Dragon Break - It simply ends up being several possible instances of the same event in various controlled permutations. The Dwemer made an error when they tapped the power of the Heart and activated the Walk-Brass, and ended up displaced from time through the Dragon-Break because of their attunement to the heart. All other events were effected in ripples by this "short"-lived Dragon Break, causing the different events to become true to different observers of the situation. Those who achieved Godhead during this time seem to remember multiple versions of the events all at once, as is implied by Vivec.

The "Red Moment" doesn't need to be explained by a Dragon Break. It is arguable if the second Numidium was even activated. The use of the tools doesn't cause a break, or there would have been more breaks every time the 3 topped themselves up.

It's simply a case of truths that are inconvenient to some - and victors writing the history books. The stories are inconsistent, but then they are told by different people from different viewpoints and with different axes to grind. There is no confusion in history, just some people telling lies to suit themselves. Of course Vivec paints himself as the hero - he always does. Though with a "look at me, I'm a philosopher/poet/warrior" aspect, reeking of fake humility.

"I had to do it for the good of all" he bleats, conveniently forgetting that he was the main beneficiary.

But what we do know is that the three broke their promise to Nerevar (and Azura wasn't happy). It is this that makes the 3 truly evil - they did it for themselves out of pure selfish greed. They could have done the right thing and chose not to.

And it's what they carry on doing throughout. It's all about them.

And if you want proof of this, then it's in the fact that I became the Nereravine and killed Viv and Alma, just as Azura had promised would happen when the 3 first conspired against Nerevar

WakeYourGhost

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Any time the Anumedium is activated, it causes a Dragon Break - Such as the "Red Moment" that saw a very short-lived one in which the Dwemer vanished, the Tribunal Ascended, and aspects of History became confused and cluttered.

You couldn't honestly claim that "Every possible event ever" can happen in a Dragon Break - It simply ends up being several possible instances of the same event in various controlled permutations. The Dwemer made an error when they tapped the power of the Heart and activated the Walk-Brass, and ended up displaced from time through the Dragon-Break because of their attunement to the heart. All other events were effected in ripples by this "short"-lived Dragon Break, causing the different events to become true to different observers of the situation. Those who achieved Godhead during this time seem to remember multiple versions of the events all at once, as is implied by Vivec.

The "Red Moment" doesn't need to be explained by a Dragon Break. It is arguable if the second Numidium was even activated. The use of the tools doesn't cause a break, or there would have been more breaks every time the 3 topped themselves up.

It's simply a case of truths that are inconvenient to some - and victors writing the history books. The stories are inconsistent, but then they are told by different people from different viewpoints and with different axes to grind. There is no confusion in history, just some people telling lies to suit themselves. Of course Vivec paints himself as the hero - he always does. Though with a "look at me, I'm a philosopher/poet/warrior" aspect, reeking of fake humility.

"I had to do it for the good of all" he bleats, conveniently forgetting that he was the main beneficiary.

But what we do know is that the three broke their promise to Nerevar (and Azura wasn't happy). It is this that makes the 3 truly evil - they did it for themselves out of pure selfish greed. They could have done the right thing and chose not to.

And it's what they carry on doing throughout. It's all about them.

And if you want proof of this, then it's in the fact that I became the Nereravine and killed Viv and Alma, just as Azura had promised would happen when the 3 first conspired against Nerevar

The Second Numidium wasn't activated.. It wasn't even made yet. The Second Numidium was "Akulakhan", created by Dagoth Ur to be activated for use in destroying the Empire.

The use of the Tools indeed doesn't seem to cause a break, but at the same time, grasping Divine Power from the Heart and using it to warp history and reality seems in and of itself similar enough to a break.

Vivec is the God of Fanfic-made-Reality, using the Hurling Disk after her ascended to make his "Sermons" and his Stories true history - This made him one of the most powerful Beings in the Elder Scrolls universe (Only edged out by Hoonding, and eventually Talos [Unless you believe the Theory that Trinnimac is still alive and not Malacath at all.])

Even if the "Red Moment" wasn't a proper Dragon Break, it was a time where "Time" was greatly violated and reality was brutally warped.. Warped by a fledgling God who had gained more power than any Mortal had before "him"... And worse, a poet at that.
If nothing else, he might have liked the idea of being the Villain and Hero all at once, and Made alternate versions where he very much was All things at once.
Sotha Sil indicates Vivec's desire to be Everything - To be all things in all states.

Vrienda

Well, it might be a lie.

The first rule of Elder Scrolls lore is to not believe everything you read. The Seremons of Vivec could be one giant propaganda machine made to make his divinity seem more concrete. Even Sotha Sil suggests that Vivec is a compulsive liar.

Either that or he really wanted to bite off Molag Bal’s spear and keep it for himself.

crashen17b14_ESO

Vrienda wrote: »

Well, it might be a lie.

The first rule of Elder Scrolls lore is to not believe everything you read. The Seremons of Vivec could be one giant propaganda machine made to make his divinity seem more concrete. Even Sotha Sil suggests that Vivec is a compulsive liar.

Either that or he really wanted to bite off Molag Bal’s spear and keep it for himself.

Seconded. It drives me insane that everyone goes on about how the Elder Scrolls stories are told by The Unreliable Narrator... and then they take everything that is said literally, at face value. Especially Vivec, the king of Unreliable Narration. They completely disregard the veracity of the source material (in this case, the religious doctrines of a pathological narcissist and compulsive liar).

The entire purpose of his SERMONS is to preach his greatness and indoctrinate everyone into believing what he wants them to believe.

Honestly, I question the actual mythic power of the Tribunal. I think they are more akin to super ultra powerful mages, than actual gods. I think their true power and influence comes more from HOW they use their sliver of divinity, rather than the divinity itself. If each Tribune is roughly equal to the others in terms of power, compare Almalexia and Sotha Sil. Sil created his own pocket plane/miniature nirn/world of his own, and even built a replica of the heart of lorkhan. Almalexia on the other hand, kind of flailed around in her city and squandered her power. Yeah she may have healed some people or something, but she didn't really know how to USE that power the way Sotha Sil did.

So, going back to the point of this thread: I don't think Vivec ever really did anything with Molag Bal. At least not the way he said it happened. I think whatever happened was embellished and exaggerated to fit Vivec's narrative of his own greatness.

AEAltadoonPadhome

elias.stormneb18_ESO wrote: »

"'I told you,' Vivec said, 'I am meant to be the teacher of the king of the earth. AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME.'"

Second that entire reply. Only 'Ghartok' didn't fit into my name, which is already a monstrosity.

Oh, of course the sermons are propaganda. It is just boring to call it nothing but propaganda as it might have some truths in it.

MLGProPlayer

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

In all seriousness, the Daedra are not "Evil", they are Amoral at best - Past their own aspect and fulfilling it's objectives, they have no standing morality or strong-founded opinions on much of anything.
Also, keep in mind, the "Divines", the Aedra, are the same way.

Molag Bal is the god of ***, torture, and slavery. The daedra are absolutely evil by mortal standards.

The only exception is (maybe) Meridia, but that's because she's only a daedra in name (she is a divine by origin).

crashen17b14_ESO

Daedra are absolutely bound to the morality of mortals, since they *continually* enter the mortal world and meddle in the affairs of mortals. They might be fairly one-dimensional, in that they *are* their spheres, but that doesn't make those spheres any less evil.

Molag Bal sends one of his dremora to *** your five year old son to death, purely to remind you, random peasant, that he exists and is stronger than you and that there is nothing you can do about it. In what universe is that anything but evil? The fact that he can't be anything but that does not mean what he does is any less evil.

Ajaxandriel

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

The entire purpose of his SERMONS is to preach his greatness and indoctrinate everyone into believing what he wants them to believe.

At last... it works. Even before the "fourth wall" !
Fascinating.

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, I question the actual mythic power of the Tribunal. I think they are more akin to super ultra powerful mages, than actual gods. I think their true power and influence comes more from HOW they use their sliver of divinity, rather than the divinity itself.

This ! you know, "any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from godhood"

The whole main story of ESO:Morrowind displays it brilliantly!

Plus that nice side-quest when a rational Ashlander laughed at some bigot NPCs when they spoke about the dreadful offspring of Vivec and Molag Bal ... which later appears as an uncommon form of Dreugh!

As I often tell - and as every true Aldmer should tell - gods, living or not, are merely powerful spirits that happened to get strong influence over (other) mortals.
The bosmer spinners are basically hundreds of little Vivecs all over the place in Valenwood. And I wish we'll see their altmer counterpart (probably the psijic)

MLGProPlayer

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

Well, it might be a lie.

The first rule of Elder Scrolls lore is to not believe everything you read. The Seremons of Vivec could be one giant propaganda machine made to make his divinity seem more concrete. Even Sotha Sil suggests that Vivec is a compulsive liar.

Either that or he really wanted to bite off Molag Bal’s spear and keep it for himself.

Seconded. It drives me insane that everyone goes on about how the Elder Scrolls stories are told by The Unreliable Narrator... and then they take everything that is said literally, at face value. Especially Vivec, the king of Unreliable Narration. They completely disregard the veracity of the source material (in this case, the religious doctrines of a pathological narcissist and compulsive liar).

The entire purpose of his SERMONS is to preach his greatness and indoctrinate everyone into believing what he wants them to believe.

Honestly, I question the actual mythic power of the Tribunal. I think they are more akin to super ultra powerful mages, than actual gods. I think their true power and influence comes more from HOW they use their sliver of divinity, rather than the divinity itself. If each Tribune is roughly equal to the others in terms of power, compare Almalexia and Sotha Sil. Sil created his own pocket plane/miniature nirn/world of his own, and even built a replica of the heart of lorkhan. Almalexia on the other hand, kind of flailed around in her city and squandered her power. Yeah she may have healed some people or something, but she didn't really know how to USE that power the way Sotha Sil did.

So, going back to the point of this thread: I don't think Vivec ever really did anything with Molag Bal. At least not the way he said it happened. I think whatever happened was embellished and exaggerated to fit Vivec's narrative of his own greatness.

We know that the Tribunal didn't create or change any aspect of Nirn. History didn't start with the creation of the Tribunal. Civilization was already established. They simply inherited divine power, the same way the player character did when they used the Amulet of Kings.

The sermons of the Tribunal make it seem like they changed Nirn in profound ways with their actions (Vivec causing changes to the physical landscape of Nirn through his sexual encounters, Sotha Sil literally creating the fabric of existence through his work in the Clockwork City, and so on), when we know they didn't because written history existed long before their ascension.