Remember when quests were hard?

Magdalina

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

Pretty hard to explain.

You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

Actually, far as inexperienced players go, the game being too easy is in fact part of the issue. It doesn't teach them ANYTHING. At launch days, if you actually made it to vet 5-10, it was pretty much a guarantee you knew how to block/shield/dodge/bash at the very least because the only viable way of leveling was questing and vet zones mobs taught you that really well. If you made it through Craglorn lateron, it was a guarantee you got down the idea of some kind of mob priorities - archer dies first, healer next, everyone else last etc and practiced your bashing/dodging skills some more, as well as situational awareness(because it generally only takes so many <your health>*10 Taking Aim's to start paying attention to where the archer is). You were also probably familiar with the concept of food, gear sets and at least some semblance of rotation(possibly an ineffective one, but not a heavy attack-light attack-heavy attack kind at least).

Now they hit cp 10/160/300 roflstomping everything in their way(except for world bosses which they zerg down instead), get into a vet dungeon and have that "wait wut" moment all of a sudden...

VaranisArano

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

Pretty hard to explain.

You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

Actually, far as inexperienced players go, the game being too easy is in fact part of the issue. It doesn't teach them ANYTHING. At launch days, if you actually made it to vet 5-10, it was pretty much a guarantee you knew how to block/shield/dodge/bash at the very least because the only viable way of leveling was questing and vet zones mobs taught you that really well. If you made it through Craglorn lateron, it was a guarantee you got down the idea of some kind of mob priorities - archer dies first, healer next, everyone else last etc and practiced your bashing/dodging skills some more, as well as situational awareness(because it generally only takes so many <your health>*10 Taking Aim's to start paying attention to where the archer is). You were also probably familiar with the concept of food, gear sets and at least some semblance of rotation(possibly an ineffective one, but not a heavy attack-light attack-heavy attack kind at least).

Now they hit cp 10/160/300 roflstomping everything in their way(except for world bosses which they zerg down instead), get into a vet dungeon and have that "wait wut" moment all of a sudden...

In my experience leveling a warden with no CP, that's not the case. There were plenty of fights levels 10-30 that forced me to learn my class, to develop priorities, and to respect the mechanics. Moreover, I've helped way too many players who are going "I can't beat this content, what do I do" on overland quests (usually the boss fights with mechanics or waves of adds) to develop an actual rotation, get AoEs, use food/drink, and actually figure out how to use their class. Its not that the game doesn't force them to learn, because it does. Its that the game doesn't effectively teach any of those things.

Nowhere in game is a new player going to learn - "hey, its more efficient if you go mostly magicka or mostly stamina"
Nowhere in game is a new player going to learn - "hey, you should mix in AOE DOTs with your single target attacks for maximum DPS"
Nowhere in game is a new player going to learn - "hey, using food and/or drink is pretty much mandatory for serious content, go get some"
(Yes, there's guides and an alert player can figure most of these out eventually, but it took me until late vet levels to start working those out on my own, so that doesn't really help new players. Also, I don't think "read the guides and L2Play" is a good answer for new players, so there does need to be better in-game teaching.)

The game most certainly forces you to use your build correctly. I've hit boss fights that pushed my limits as an experienced player on that noCP warden. I've helped plenty of other players struggling on boss fights where they asked for help because they were tired of dying. The solution was often a proper rotation and explaining the stamina/magicka thing, again, things that new players can't easily learn in-game without help.

The game isn't too easy for new players. Or rather, the average mob is easy enough in comparison to minibosses or quest bosses that then become a stone wall to players who can't learn good gameplay techniques in game.

A solution could be for ZOS to include proper tutorials which would then give new players a better clue as to builds, rotations, and buffs so that new players can then handle the harder content you want. But that would require ZOS to provide guidance about a "proper" way to play which ZOS has thus been avoiding.

Magdalina

VaranisArano wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

Pretty hard to explain.

You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

Actually, far as inexperienced players go, the game being too easy is in fact part of the issue. It doesn't teach them ANYTHING. At launch days, if you actually made it to vet 5-10, it was pretty much a guarantee you knew how to block/shield/dodge/bash at the very least because the only viable way of leveling was questing and vet zones mobs taught you that really well. If you made it through Craglorn lateron, it was a guarantee you got down the idea of some kind of mob priorities - archer dies first, healer next, everyone else last etc and practiced your bashing/dodging skills some more, as well as situational awareness(because it generally only takes so many <your health>*10 Taking Aim's to start paying attention to where the archer is). You were also probably familiar with the concept of food, gear sets and at least some semblance of rotation(possibly an ineffective one, but not a heavy attack-light attack-heavy attack kind at least).

Now they hit cp 10/160/300 roflstomping everything in their way(except for world bosses which they zerg down instead), get into a vet dungeon and have that "wait wut" moment all of a sudden...

In my experience leveling a warden with no CP, that's not the case. There were plenty of fights levels 10-30 that forced me to learn my class, to develop priorities, and to respect the mechanics.

I have in fact recently leveled a brand new account(NA->EU) from level 1 to ~300 cp and I while I did dearly miss my cp for melting world bosses and stuff...I couldn't even practice my rotation on trash/elites because they melted after 2 weaves

Perhaps the difference is I was leveling another magsorc(albeit not a pet one) which I do know really well, instead of a class new for me. But seriously, all that experience did was confirm my thoughts on open world difficulty, I basically heavy attacked everything in my way to death with no other skills required. Okay maybe some form of a heal occasionally. I was actually hoping for some challenge there...I didn't find one World bosses were kind of hard to solo but someone'd usually show up, that's about it.

Loralai_907

Part of what made the game hard for me in the early days was I had no idea what I was doing. Pair that with certain bosses/fights being much more difficult and there were certain things that were pretty challenging for me.

So now, for me, not much challenges me. Which is why I think I like PvP so much, its new and I have no idea what I am doing and I'm not running some "meta" build. Started a bit with normal dungeons but I'd rather run with the same people all the time and not random strangers so I'm not fully invested yet, not having a core group to run with.

My friend rarely plays due to real life stuff, but she just got her parents started. Last night her mom was playing and so was my friend. We ended up grouping and then me and the friend ran off to do the event quests while her mom wanted to just sort of run around and explore this brand new world. Periodically I would look at the map and check in on the mom, and all of a sudden I see she is in Crow's Wood. At level 5. With maybe a few hours of MMO experience. She just learned how to jump. I was just like, friend, tell your mother to get the heck out of there, that is way too hard for her right now. I kept watching her health bar suddenly be *dead*

My point is, for some people, things are still hard in the beginning. Most of us have enough experience under our belts though to make most of the game a cakewalk.

VaranisArano

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

Pretty hard to explain.

You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

Actually, far as inexperienced players go, the game being too easy is in fact part of the issue. It doesn't teach them ANYTHING. At launch days, if you actually made it to vet 5-10, it was pretty much a guarantee you knew how to block/shield/dodge/bash at the very least because the only viable way of leveling was questing and vet zones mobs taught you that really well. If you made it through Craglorn lateron, it was a guarantee you got down the idea of some kind of mob priorities - archer dies first, healer next, everyone else last etc and practiced your bashing/dodging skills some more, as well as situational awareness(because it generally only takes so many <your health>*10 Taking Aim's to start paying attention to where the archer is). You were also probably familiar with the concept of food, gear sets and at least some semblance of rotation(possibly an ineffective one, but not a heavy attack-light attack-heavy attack kind at least).

Now they hit cp 10/160/300 roflstomping everything in their way(except for world bosses which they zerg down instead), get into a vet dungeon and have that "wait wut" moment all of a sudden...

In my experience leveling a warden with no CP, that's not the case. There were plenty of fights levels 10-30 that forced me to learn my class, to develop priorities, and to respect the mechanics.

I have in fact recently leveled a brand new account(NA->EU) from level 1 to ~300 cp and I while I did dearly miss my cp for melting world bosses and stuff...I couldn't even practice my rotation on trash/elites because they melted after 2 weaves

Perhaps the difference is I was leveling another magsorc(albeit not a pet one) which I do know really well, instead of a class new for me. But seriously, all that experience did was confirm my thoughts on open world difficulty, I basically heavy attacked everything in my way to death with no other skills required. Okay maybe some form of a heal occasionally. I was actually hoping for some challenge there...I didn't find one World bosses were kind of hard to solo but someone'd usually show up, that's about it.

I would have the same experience on a stamina sorcerer, a class I know really well and know exactly how to pull decent DPS on. Even with no CP, I'm pretty confident I'd have no problems blitzing quest content on a stam sorc.

But that's my experience as a stam sorc player talking, not anything that has to do with the relative difficulty of the game for new players...

terrordactyl1971

I think the game would benefit from just one hard as nails overland zone

Magdalina

VaranisArano wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

Pretty hard to explain.

You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

Actually, far as inexperienced players go, the game being too easy is in fact part of the issue. It doesn't teach them ANYTHING. At launch days, if you actually made it to vet 5-10, it was pretty much a guarantee you knew how to block/shield/dodge/bash at the very least because the only viable way of leveling was questing and vet zones mobs taught you that really well. If you made it through Craglorn lateron, it was a guarantee you got down the idea of some kind of mob priorities - archer dies first, healer next, everyone else last etc and practiced your bashing/dodging skills some more, as well as situational awareness(because it generally only takes so many <your health>*10 Taking Aim's to start paying attention to where the archer is). You were also probably familiar with the concept of food, gear sets and at least some semblance of rotation(possibly an ineffective one, but not a heavy attack-light attack-heavy attack kind at least).

Now they hit cp 10/160/300 roflstomping everything in their way(except for world bosses which they zerg down instead), get into a vet dungeon and have that "wait wut" moment all of a sudden...

In my experience leveling a warden with no CP, that's not the case. There were plenty of fights levels 10-30 that forced me to learn my class, to develop priorities, and to respect the mechanics.

I have in fact recently leveled a brand new account(NA->EU) from level 1 to ~300 cp and I while I did dearly miss my cp for melting world bosses and stuff...I couldn't even practice my rotation on trash/elites because they melted after 2 weaves

Perhaps the difference is I was leveling another magsorc(albeit not a pet one) which I do know really well, instead of a class new for me. But seriously, all that experience did was confirm my thoughts on open world difficulty, I basically heavy attacked everything in my way to death with no other skills required. Okay maybe some form of a heal occasionally. I was actually hoping for some challenge there...I didn't find one World bosses were kind of hard to solo but someone'd usually show up, that's about it.

I would have the same experience on a stamina sorcerer, a class I know really well and know exactly how to pull decent DPS on. Even with no CP, I'm pretty confident I'd have no problems blitzing quest content on a stam sorc.

But that's my experience as a stam sorc player talking, not anything that has to do with the relative difficulty of the game for new players...

There is the fact of pug quality plummeting over time though. I mean I'm not gonna say pugs were somehow op and perfect back then, of course not(plus we didn't have group finder so any group required some kind of communication), but it was rare to run into high level people unfamiliar with the idea of food/refusing to eat any, or people just trying to light/heavy attack their way to victory, or people religiously refusing to bash/block/dodge/shield...now I see it ALL the time. And worse yet now most of them refuse to listen

VaranisArano

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

Pretty hard to explain.

You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

Actually, far as inexperienced players go, the game being too easy is in fact part of the issue. It doesn't teach them ANYTHING. At launch days, if you actually made it to vet 5-10, it was pretty much a guarantee you knew how to block/shield/dodge/bash at the very least because the only viable way of leveling was questing and vet zones mobs taught you that really well. If you made it through Craglorn lateron, it was a guarantee you got down the idea of some kind of mob priorities - archer dies first, healer next, everyone else last etc and practiced your bashing/dodging skills some more, as well as situational awareness(because it generally only takes so many <your health>*10 Taking Aim's to start paying attention to where the archer is). You were also probably familiar with the concept of food, gear sets and at least some semblance of rotation(possibly an ineffective one, but not a heavy attack-light attack-heavy attack kind at least).

Now they hit cp 10/160/300 roflstomping everything in their way(except for world bosses which they zerg down instead), get into a vet dungeon and have that "wait wut" moment all of a sudden...

In my experience leveling a warden with no CP, that's not the case. There were plenty of fights levels 10-30 that forced me to learn my class, to develop priorities, and to respect the mechanics.

I have in fact recently leveled a brand new account(NA->EU) from level 1 to ~300 cp and I while I did dearly miss my cp for melting world bosses and stuff...I couldn't even practice my rotation on trash/elites because they melted after 2 weaves

Perhaps the difference is I was leveling another magsorc(albeit not a pet one) which I do know really well, instead of a class new for me. But seriously, all that experience did was confirm my thoughts on open world difficulty, I basically heavy attacked everything in my way to death with no other skills required. Okay maybe some form of a heal occasionally. I was actually hoping for some challenge there...I didn't find one World bosses were kind of hard to solo but someone'd usually show up, that's about it.

I would have the same experience on a stamina sorcerer, a class I know really well and know exactly how to pull decent DPS on. Even with no CP, I'm pretty confident I'd have no problems blitzing quest content on a stam sorc.

But that's my experience as a stam sorc player talking, not anything that has to do with the relative difficulty of the game for new players...

There is the fact of pug quality plummeting over time though. I mean I'm not gonna say pugs were somehow op and perfect back then, of course not(plus we didn't have group finder so any group required some kind of communication), but it was rare to run into high level people unfamiliar with the idea of food/refusing to eat any, or people just trying to light/heavy attack their way to victory, or people religiously refusing to bash/block/dodge/shield...now I see it ALL the time. And worse yet now most of them refuse to listen

I'd attribute that more to the push to get to the gear cap before you do any end-game content. If all a player wants to do is push as fast as they can to CP 160 in order to get max-level gear to do content, that's not exactly encouraging good gameplay. (The rest of it has to do with grinding spots opened up by One Tamriel that enable people to level without actually playing the game in a substantial way, but that's not something that's going to change.) If players get to a high level without ever stepping foot into a group dungeon, I'm not surprised that the quality stinks. I'm going to have to cop to that one myself, because despite hitting Vet 7 before One Tamriel, I'd never done a group dungeon. I was fortunate enough to learn group dungeons as a tank for understanding friends before I inflicted myself on the general population, but not everyone is so fortunate. I also learned about the glories of using proper food late too, after the stamblade I was questing with tried using it and started raving over how much easier it made everything. Again, things I learned late in my gameplay experience before One Tamriel because there was no good way to learn in game.

Furthermore, keep in mind that the Dungeon Finder was only recently changed to appropriately reflect dungeon difficulty. Normal Dungeons are a great place for new players to learn what end-game content really takes, but until recently new players with DLC ran the risk of winding up in DLC dungeons half of the time. Not exactly conductive to people learning how to play. That's actually a rather good example of "difficult" content for newer players. Everyone hated it. New players didn't have the abilities to do a proper rotation, the mechanics were pretty punishing, and experienced players disliked taking the time to explain and compensate for under-leveled players in harder dungeons. I'm extremely grateful that ZOS changed it and I really enjoyed leveling my warden healer in random dungeons. Otherwise, I'd have been one of those CP 690 healers who's never actually healed a dungeon because I didn't want to be a drag on a group in WGT or ICP.

Its my hope that with players now being able to PUG in dungeons that fit their levels, that the quality of PUGs will improve. It'll be slow, of course.

Dojohoda

Ya, I remember being new and dying a lot! I did the whole story with a Nord dragonknight. I didn't know what I was doing. I wore whatever gear the quests dropped; I didn't know sets existed for a while. I was 100% noob.

AbysmalGhul

When were quest hard? * Doesn't remember * played since console launch *

leeux

Yeah, I get the feeling that people is over-exaggerating how easy the game is... I've seen new players have a difficult time lately... specially with the solo instances you encounter during questing.

And I also don't forget that at least in my case, I didn't have sets until I was VR5 on my templar*, before that I was questing with mostly mismatched gear and no food and definitely no crafted potions... and at that time it was a *whole* world-change for me, having sets and being able to take several enemies at a time, even multiple pulls... I was never able to do that before

EDIT: *this is before the CP system was created even... which made the issue worse for new players, since they nerfed our stats in order to absorbe them into the CP system, so new players with no CP would have less stats than a *real* VR character had back in the day (or I'd assume at least... never did the math.)

Though, maybe that's taken into account in the battle-leveling and as long as people have close-to-level equipment, maybe that deficiency is compensated by the system.

VaranisArano

leeux wrote: »

EDIT: *this is before the CP system was created even... which made the issue worse for new players, since they nerfed our stats in order to absorbe them into the CP system, so new players with no CP would have less stats than a *real* VR character had back in the day (or I'd assume at least... never did the math.)

Though, maybe that's taken into account in the battle-leveling and as long as people have close-to-level equipment, maybe that deficiency is compensated by the system.

In general the deficiency is compensated as long as the player has gear that is close-to-level equipment. That's yet another thing that is poorly explained by the game, witnessed by the amount of times the forums have clarified "Why am I getting weaker as I level up?" that are often answered with a "well, you are getting more skills, but make sure your gear is close-to-level."

Soloing I can comfortably stay within about 5 levels before I start feeling pretty squishy. With another character to support my leveling character, I can get to 10 levels of armor, but I'm being carried at that point.

jssriot

My first two toons that I completed teh main quest on were both NBs and I started before CP was added, and I definitely remember quests that were tough for me to get through. Some of those quests still make me cringe even though most have been really nerfed.

How about MoL when it was first released? LOL. Ah, memories...

idk

Jade1986 wrote: »

I just wish it were skyrim adept difficulty level at least. I mean the big baddies in this game are incredibly anticlimactic because they are so easy. .....

@Jade1986

Olms +2 is anticlimactic? Rakkhat HM is anticlimactic? Granted, not all of us are in guilds that do that in their sleep with speed runs and no deaths for grins and giggles, Some of us found them to be somewhat of a challenge when we first cleared them. Well, I have not cleared Olms +2 yet.

But that is where the PvE challenge is intended to be. Not overland trash mobs and not even Doshia. Heck, Doshia was not really a challenge the first week the game was out. It was just a matter of staying behind her to avoid her cleave.

Jade1986

idk wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

I just wish it were skyrim adept difficulty level at least. I mean the big baddies in this game are incredibly anticlimactic because they are so easy. .....

@Jade1986

Olms +2 is anticlimactic? Rakkhat HM is anticlimactic? Granted, not all of us are in guilds that do that in their sleep with speed runs and no deaths for grins and giggles, Some of us found them to be somewhat of a challenge when we first cleared them. Well, I have not cleared Olms +2 yet.

But that is where the PvE challenge is intended to be. Not overland trash mobs and not even Doshia. Heck, Doshia was not really a challenge the first week the game was out. It was just a matter of staying behind her to avoid her cleave.

Tired overused response is tired and overused. We clearly are not talking about hm dungeons, or trials. Adept difficulty on skyrim was not hard, by ANY measure. But it at least made you think a little when faced with bosses. Why do you people insist on twisting our words when we say things? When I say adept skyrim difficulty, I -MEAN- adept skyrim difficulty, there is no hidden code that transaltes it into REALLY meaning skyrim legendary difficulty.

My word....

FrancisCrawford

Big changes include:

• Our CP gains to damage.
• Our CP reductions to incoming damage.
• Our better knowledge of the game.
• Our access to better gear and consumables.
• One Tamriel, which took away the option of going into a zone for which you were somewhat or greatly underleveled.
• Direct nerfs to many fights.

So yeah -- there's a great difference. Little in the overworld is at all challenging to experienced players.

phairdon

Dreaded coming up against Mannimarco. Found the battles against Mannimarco more difficult than Molag Bal. Doshia was tough too.

Dahveed

Agree 100%, this game is very very very very easy.

I'm doing the DB questline right now and just annihilated the Grand Sermonizer with ease, despite only having 2 abilities slotted, no ultimate slotted, half-assed gear, no CP, and never having done any real PvP where the truly skilled players typically play.

They desperately need a difficulty slider in this game. It would be easy to implement, if they just made it a player-centered debuff on damage given and taken. Just think of Resurrection Sickness in WoW. Put a massive debuff on the player we could toggle on/off while questing and the game would be way more interesting.

(And don't give me any of that "play naked" crap, because I practically AM naked and it changes nothing.)

VaranisArano

Jade1986 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

I just wish it were skyrim adept difficulty level at least. I mean the big baddies in this game are incredibly anticlimactic because they are so easy. .....

@Jade1986

Olms +2 is anticlimactic? Rakkhat HM is anticlimactic? Granted, not all of us are in guilds that do that in their sleep with speed runs and no deaths for grins and giggles, Some of us found them to be somewhat of a challenge when we first cleared them. Well, I have not cleared Olms +2 yet.

But that is where the PvE challenge is intended to be. Not overland trash mobs and not even Doshia. Heck, Doshia was not really a challenge the first week the game was out. It was just a matter of staying behind her to avoid her cleave.

Tired overused response is tired and overused. We clearly are not talking about hm dungeons, or trials. Adept difficulty on skyrim was not hard, by ANY measure. But it at least made you think a little when faced with bosses. Why do you people insist on twisting our words when we say things? When I say adept skyrim difficulty, I -MEAN- adept skyrim difficulty, there is no hidden code that transaltes it into REALLY meaning skyrim legendary difficulty.

My word....

As if you don't have to think when faced with bosses as a new player with no CP. As an experienced player doing ESO Morrowind on a warden with no CP, I had to think and adapt when faced with minibosses and quest bosses. I had to balance rotation and sustain, and I actually knew enough to know how to do both, unlike most new players. I also see a lot of new players who struggle with some of those miniboss/quest boss mechanics, largely because they don't know how to do a proper rotation for their build because there is no way in-game to figure that out.

With experience, even Skyrim's adept difficulty was pretty easy. it basically came down to "do I have enough potions/cheesewheels/horker stews to keep my health up?" and "Did I pick the right perks so I don't hit like wet noodles when the enemies leveled with me?" In a similar way, experience (and CP) makes ESO leveling really easy. Experience means that I know to grab festival food (that I bought on another character), to stack most of my points in either stamina or magicka, to match my weapons and race to my build, and to use a mix of AOE DOTs and single target skills.

Or to put it another way, I remember when I went out of my way to avoid Harvesters. Those ladies were nasty! Now, I'm like whatever. What changed? I learned their mechanics, I learned how to use AoE effectively on them, I learned when to bash, etc. I gained experience and now Harvesters will never be as hard again. Its just a matter of proper rotation and sustain and I will kill them. A new player has to gain that experience, learning to use AoEs, sustain a rotation, to interrupt their mechanics or those harvesters are going to be murder just like they were the first time my character ran into them in Coldharbor.

Silver_Strider

There's a spot between difficult and face roll that ESO has not found and probably never will.

Maybe things were harder back in the day because of lack of knowledge, lack of CP, and crap gear but even if that was the case, a few things can and SHOULD be difficult, regardless of if you're level 1 or 100.

Delves should be soloable, Public Dungeons should encourage group play but also be possible solo, albeit slightly harder in general. Dungeons should be difficult enough that you can't skip mechanics and just burn the boss but not so difficult that it's unfair either, with Vet Dungeons further stressing this. Trials should absolutely require proper group coordination, with Tank Swaps, heal checks, and DPS races but be manageable to handle given a handful of deaths here and there. Vet Trials would add even more nonsense to learn, stricter enrage timers, etc.

Overworld content is alright for the most part. Dolmens could be harder but I feel it's currently in a good spot overall.

I understand that ESO is much more lenient in general but really, some content is just so mind numbingly simple, it's insulting to say the least.

DisgracefulMind

I miss Craglorn. :c

Ankael07

Being able to disable/enable CP outside Cyrodiil (without a cost) would be a nice start to this. And making it an option wouldnt hurt beginners either.
This would also enable some PVP players in noCP campaigns to participate in dueling.

kyle.wilson

For experienced players the quests are too easy, yet I keep seeing new players complain about how hard some are.

BTW, Dosha wasn't that hard at launch, most people had no idea how to play. It was ZOS first attempt at putting mechanics driven content in PVE.
Watch what streamers posted of that fight, and you'll see that they were just baddies then.

leeux

Funnily enough what killed me the most in that Doshia fight at the start of the game (I remember that I tried to tackle it when I was L7 on my DK) was the damn Scamps

When I finally got her (I was about ~L10 IIRC) it felt great

Taleof2Cities

Couldn’t beat Angof the first time and had to return 5 levels later ... those were the good ‘ol days (wistful sigh).

Angof was a no-brainer when being asked for potential allies in Coldharbour.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Ooh! ‘member when mudcrabs were a real threat?!

phairdon

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Ooh! ‘member when mudcrabs were a real threat?!

Sure do. You ran from mud crabs lol.

LordSemaj

The original game wasn't built for soloing. So much of the content seemed to assume that you had a partner. Delves were a duo affair, I swear I even remember an article stating that. The game was best played with a friend because it was supposed to be a bit dangerous getting swarmed by mobs. Playing in a full group of four dwarfed all the content and was the fastest way to level short of those massive xp world events, which themselves were a challenge to survive and solo but still doable.

I remember getting Werewolf and thinking this was the most OP thing ever made. I could solo any boss I wanted with it, clearing public dungeons without the public part and without using tactics beyond punching it in the face and healing.

But what I most miss was the pre-nerfed version of Overload. When activated, it melted anything in seconds and consumed very very little ultimate which allowed you to keep it charged constantly by turning it off after the boss was dead. The extra hotbar was just added gravy for people who wanted versatility and hybrid builds. Which actually were effective without set gear and CPs while leveling.

Darkonflare15

Lol I remember going into vet zones and could never really find people there to help me quest back then. I just ran away and shadow cloak from everything because Nightblades did not have the tools to handle more than one mob. Had to use volcanic runes just to knock enemies up in the air long enough to kill. Instead of fun, it was super tedious. What the point of questing if every three mobs had too much health and do too much damage. That was just pure artificial dificulty. I remember going to Craglorn to level up my character because there was a train of players farming bosses and the only reason I did that was so I can overlevel the vet content just to go back and at least enjoy it. The whole reason I did quests was for the story not for the challenge. It was such a pain back then. I was on the verge of quiting until they said they will nerf the vet zones back in Quakecon 2014. I definitely do not miss the experience.

Asardes

Difficulty is created not by large hit points that make you hit a mob for ages but by challenging mechanics like CC and interrupts. But if the HP is too low then those won't play and you'll skip them outright. That happened with many dungeons before One Tamriel and still happens on normal.