Nocturnal is the Enemy?

QuebraRegra

alephthiago wrote: »

I agree with you, Nocturnal loves us all and keeps us under her shadowy embrace.

yer damn right!

give us a proper thieves guild NOCTURNAL quest line, and housing in the EVERGOAM (Crows wood is nice tho)!

QuebraRegra

Almakor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nocturnal interferes with the mortal realm plenty. She just does it from the shadows, through her own agents like the Thieves Guild. Those can have pretty big consequences, like in TES IV Oblivion when

The Gray Fox can't reveal his true identity, meaning the Countess Umbranox of Anvil thinks her husband has left her.

Or in Skyrim where

The Thieves Guild is in a bad way because they've lost Nocturnal's favor. With Nocturnal's favor or the help of an individual that Nocturnal favors the Thieves Guild is able to extend their reach across Skyrim.

All those happened because of what mortals did. The mortals went to her. But Princes like Mephala go to the mortals.

yup and yup, mortals "stole" from NOCTURNAL... resulting in the curse.

Korah_Eaglecry

VaranisArano wrote: »

A good look at why the Dunmer regard Boethiah as one of the Good Daedra: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Boethiah

Mephala: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Mephala

A particular quote:
"Back in the Merethic Era, Boethiah "illuminated" the Prophet Veloth and his Chimer followers to renounce all ties to the Aldmer and found a new nation based on Daedric principles (present-day Morrowind). Azura taught the Chimer the mysteries needed to be different than the Altmer. Mephala taught the Chimer the skills they would need to evade their enemies or to kill them with secret murder. Enemies were numerous in those days since the Chimer was a small faction. Mephala, along with Boethiah, organized the clan systems that eventually became the basis for the Great Houses of the Dunmer. Mephala created an assassin guild, the Morag Tong."

So the Dunmer regard them as Good because those three Daedric Princes helped them to become the Chimer. And if you think that being good at murder, lies, betrayal, strife, and the like are a bad thing in Dunmer society, clearly you haven't been paying much attention to Dunmer society.

They might look at her as a Good Daedra, but what she did was far from good. Her sphere is dividing others. Which she did by helping to convince the Chimer to leave the Aldmer society. She helped sow mistrust and hatred there.

Shes good in that she assisted them in their journey to Morrowind, but this was more to do with her gaining followers after playing a part in creating the schism.

VaranisArano

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

A good look at why the Dunmer regard Boethiah as one of the Good Daedra: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Boethiah

Mephala: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Mephala

A particular quote:
"Back in the Merethic Era, Boethiah "illuminated" the Prophet Veloth and his Chimer followers to renounce all ties to the Aldmer and found a new nation based on Daedric principles (present-day Morrowind). Azura taught the Chimer the mysteries needed to be different than the Altmer. Mephala taught the Chimer the skills they would need to evade their enemies or to kill them with secret murder. Enemies were numerous in those days since the Chimer was a small faction. Mephala, along with Boethiah, organized the clan systems that eventually became the basis for the Great Houses of the Dunmer. Mephala created an assassin guild, the Morag Tong."

So the Dunmer regard them as Good because those three Daedric Princes helped them to become the Chimer. And if you think that being good at murder, lies, betrayal, strife, and the like are a bad thing in Dunmer society, clearly you haven't been paying much attention to Dunmer society.

They might look at her as a Good Daedra, but what she did was far from good. Her sphere is dividing others. Which she did by helping to convince the Chimer to leave the Aldmer society. She helped sow mistrust and hatred there.

Shes good in that she assisted them in their journey to Morrowind, but this was more to do with her gaining followers after playing a part in creating the schism.

I'm going to repeat something I've more or less said above thread. The Good Daedra of the Dunmer aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Which in a lot of ways, fits the Dunmer themselves.

If you take a serious hard look at Dunmer society in TES Morrowind and Skyrim, both before and after the Tribunal, there's an awful lot of morality and societal structures that have very little to do with good in the moral sense and everything to do with upholding a very clan-ish power structure and a strict religion. Dunmer society is not particularly interested in "good" in the moral sense as much as it is interested in being in good with those in power and being good at what you do - just look at house politics in TES III.

So in that sense, the Dunmer veneration for the Good Daedra has very little to do with whether Azura, Boethiah, or Mephala are or are not "good people" as we might think of them. It has more to do with whether or not they were good patrons (by Dunmer standards yes, until the Tribunal proved themselves better, and they were proved in turn to be false) and whether or not Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala want what is "good" for the Dunmer, in the sense of a parent disciplining a child. No child wants discipline, but a wise measure of discipline is what's best for the child. Red Year was both the consequence of Almalexia and Vivec's arrogance and the return to worshiping the Good Daedra, the Reclamations, acknowledges that the True Tribunal do want what is best for the Dunmer - though in a very daedric, very Dunmer way.

Its a weird sideways way of looking at things that doesn't have much to do with good/bad morality. To use an example from Skyrim, the Nords revere Talos as sort of the ideal man, conquering hero and bloodthirsty warlord and all, and we see the flaws in Talos reflected in Ulfric Stormcloak as well as Talos' greatness. Similarly, the Dunmer emulate the Good Daedra, and if you think that being good at murder, lies, betrayal, strife, and the like are a bad thing in Dunmer society, clearly you haven't been paying much attention to Dunmer society (even though that creates huge weaknesses in Dunmer society that become apparent in the Oblivion Crisis and Red Year - the Elder Scrolls universe is not one that ascribes to seeking perfect races and nations, just look at the racial conflicts in TES Skyrim and the rise of the Thalmor).

Konstant_Tel_Necris

Almakor wrote: »

Konstant_Tel_Necris wrote: »

Almakor wrote: »

In the Clockwork City dlc, Nocturnal is the main antagonist and is hinted to be part of an "evil" alliance of lesser Princes that include Clavicus Vile and possibly Mephala. But that doesn't match with previous lore that describes Nocturnal at all. Nor does it match how she behaved in previous games. Unlike the other two Princes, Nocturnal has never actively tried to interfere with the mortal realm. At least, not on the level of Clavicus Vile and Mephala. Nor has she shown to have a sadistic nature where she enjoys watching mortals suffer. All in all, it makes no sense that she would be a main antagonist.

Actually as we know Nocturnal have own decision go against Sotha Sil.
You need to know that's after destruction of Mournhold, Sotha made deal with most powerful Princes of Oblivion, so they were bound by rules of Summoning, why Princes agree with Soth Sil? Because he threats them with his clockwork bomb of course.
Sotha Sil see them as Imperfection that's plague Nirn and his Clockwork City was tool that's can change reality and shape of Nirn, to world without Princes, seems Clavicus Vile, Nocturnal and Mephala was against such ideas and try interference as we see in ESO.

From other side you also should check Song of Hrormir about Nocturnal, she is not "Good" I don't think such templates can be applied to Princes, they are not mortals and see world in other specter.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/song-hrormir

I'm not talking about good or evil, I'm talking how there are Princes who like watching mortals suffer (like Clavicus Vile and Mephala) there are those that have shown to be indifferent to mortals (like Nocturnal) and don't care about them one way or the other.

You can't be sure that's Nocturnal is indifferent to mortals, she is govern their Luck in certain way, she also likes to test curiosity of mortals and lure them into traps where they will suffer for sure.

tyjoie

We cannot ever expect to understand the motivation of the Daedra. All of them will chose to interfere, or to not interfere, at their own discretion. They cannot be explained simply by blanket statements or overarching interpretations. e.g. Why would Azura help the tribunal, on multiple occasion, even though they scorned her enough that she cursed a whole race of people? Especially Sotha Sil, who mocked and insulted her directly.

Xvorg

Almakor wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

She is a Daedric Prince. That she's enjoying to see mortals suffer, should come as a surprise to absolutely no one.

Get your lore right. Azura and Meridia don't like watching mortals suffer. But they can have anger issues.

I'm quite sure Azura enjoyed cursing the Chimer... regarding Meridia, mortals for her are just tools. If they suffer or not it doesn't matter as long they help to her purposses

Iccotak

War is coming. Nocturnal has yet to reveal her motivations

Pendrillion

I guess we always forget that Mephala holds the treads of fate in her hands... She is the weaver. And some of you also seem to forget that both Clavicus Vile and Nocturnal seem to be lesser princes. Not as low as Peryite, but still. They all share the will of intervening with the mortal coil, also seem not bound by the coldharbour compact. And MIGHT also all be part of a grander scheme... And who is the schemer? Well... Ironically... Also Azuras motivations are mostly described is highly questionable and her benevolence seems pretty depending on how her own plans are influenced by other machinations of Aedra and Daedra alike.

Another fact we should consider: We are in the past... A lot of Princes fall from grace or become stronger in the tides of the next 1000 years.

Having Nocturnal as antagonist, isn't that surprising. Especially if she and Clavicus Vile try to get back into good graces for a higher prince for example? Or maybe good old Seht and his Clockwork Machinations aren't as innocent and pristine as they seem? After all his fellow Tribunes never seized to disappoint in the end... Even to his own demise...

JD2013

Iccotak wrote: »

War is coming. Nocturnal has yet to reveal her motivations

^ This.

We don't know exactly why this new "trinity" of Clavicus Vile, Nocturnal and Mephala coveted the Clockwork City beyond its ability to reshape Nirn. We don't know why they want Summerset. There are no clear cut motivations for why they are doing what they are doing at the moment.

Smaxx

Also some interesting point regarding the Clockwork City and its purpose or power is revealed in the Return to Clockwork City campaign for The Elder Scrolls Legends:

Some time between the events of ESO (or even earlier!) and TES: Morrowind Sotha Sil uses his knowledge, skill, and power to create an artifact, a mechanical heart, specifically a Heart of Lorkhan of his own (together with a new set of tools).

This also seems to be Almalexia's motivation for finally killing him, since she wants it for herself after the original one is destroyed during the events of TES3. Though with his last power, he locks it away within the Clockwork City, because one of his most promising disciples, Mecinar, also betrayed him (who'd expect that from a Dunmer?) and wants it for himself to become a god.

It's also hinted at that he might actually became one with his city during the whole process.

Depending on the player's choice the heart gets rediscovered during the Fourth Era (during the events of Skyrim). It is either destroyed or restores the city to its former glory.

So what if one or all of the Daedra in this group fear the artifact and want it for themselves or destroy it? It seems to be a well hidden secret, but Mephala's agents basically infiltrated the city already at the time of ESO.

HidesFromSun

I just completed Clockwork City and it killed me to have to turn against Nocturnal like that. I've been RPing a character that follows/worships her, so it just feels like a betrayal. I hope that in the future ZOS will give us a choice to aid Nocturnal or not, or at the very least some sort of 'Ok' from her so it doesn't feel like i'm going against her.

PrayingSeraph

I've always really enjoyed how Dunmer society judges Daedra not on morality, but on how said daedra have affected Dunmer history. How a more benevolent daedra like Azura is seen as good along with cruel Boethiah and wicked Maphala.

Or look at the "Bad Daedra" aka House of Troubles. Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal and Sheogorath are all very malevolent but Malacath isn't. In fact Malacath is a caring Daedric Lord for his people. Yet he is seen as bad by the Dunmer likely due to the ancient fued between the Boethiah worshipping Chimer and the Trinimac/Malacath worshipping Orsimer.

RinaldoGandolphi

All the Daedric Princes are evil. They are not deemed evil by mortal inclinations of right or wrong or good or bad. They are evil because they actively interfere in a realm that doesn’t belong to them, they had no part in making, and do so against the wishes of the aedra.

There is a reason the Divines are ALWAYS at odds with the Daedra going back to before to Allesian Rebellion. We have The Oblivion Crisis, The Imperial Similicuim, the Soulburst, The events of Battle Spire. The Daedric Princes have ZERO business being involved in the affairs of Nirn and the Aedra have repeatedly told them to butt out and they refuse hence why Akatosh has to erected the Dragonfire Barriers to keep them out.

Yet at every turn they try to destroy, manipulate or take over Nirn.

The Daedric Princes are evil and want to use Nirn for their own selfish desires and they could care less who they hurt or kill or what they destroy. It doesn’t get more evil then that...sure they often twist words around and try to convince mortals they are just playing their role, but the reality is they have no role. They had their chance to be part of Nirn at creation and refused and now they are spiteful and jealous that Nirn is so great and actively meddle in hopes of ruining it or destroying it either out right of via subtle means.

The Divines have been quite clear for them to buzz off and mind their own business and they refuse. The Divines totally classify the Daedra as evil and since Nirn is the Aedra realm I’d say their designation is the law of the land so to speak.

Even Lorhkan didn’t like the Daedra poking their nose where it doesn’t belong.

LittlePinkDot

Derlfak wrote: »

I just completed Clockwork City and it killed me to have to turn against Nocturnal like that. I've been RPing a character that follows/worships her, so it just feels like a betrayal. I hope that in the future ZOS will give us a choice to aid Nocturnal or not, or at the very least some sort of 'Ok' from her so it doesn't feel like i'm going against her.

Thats your personal opinion. But if they did that for Nocturnal then they would have to do that for the other princes involved, like even molag bal. So no I dont think they will give us any other options.

HidesFromSun

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Derlfak wrote: »

I just completed Clockwork City and it killed me to have to turn against Nocturnal like that. I've been RPing a character that follows/worships her, so it just feels like a betrayal. I hope that in the future ZOS will give us a choice to aid Nocturnal or not, or at the very least some sort of 'Ok' from her so it doesn't feel like i'm going against her.

Thats your personal opinion. But if they did that for Nocturnal then they would have to do that for the other princes involved, like even molag bal. So no I dont think they will give us any other options.

You're probably right, it's probably too much to ask. Like I say though, at least throw us Nocturnal worshippers a bone, even if it's just a line of dialogue that doesn't make you feel like a backstabbing traitor

crashen17b14_ESO

Derlfak wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Derlfak wrote: »

I just completed Clockwork City and it killed me to have to turn against Nocturnal like that. I've been RPing a character that follows/worships her, so it just feels like a betrayal. I hope that in the future ZOS will give us a choice to aid Nocturnal or not, or at the very least some sort of 'Ok' from her so it doesn't feel like i'm going against her.

Thats your personal opinion. But if they did that for Nocturnal then they would have to do that for the other princes involved, like even molag bal. So no I dont think they will give us any other options.

You're probably right, it's probably too much to ask. Like I say though, at least throw us Nocturnal worshippers a bone, even if it's just a line of dialogue that doesn't make you feel like a backstabbing traitor

Nocturnal is pretty big on double crossing and backstabbing. It's not like she's this super moral upright paragon. Beyond that, she is the Lady of Perpetual Mystery. You think all her worshippers and followers always act in complete concert and never conflict with each other? Who is to say that one sect coming to grips with another isn't somehow serving her greater plans?

On topic, maybe Nocturnal making a more direct, overt play in THIS era, and getting her fine, well-sculpted butt whooped is exactly why in later eras she seems *almost* benevolent? I say almost because let's not delude ourselves into thinking all thieves are charming rogues with a heart of gold. Most of them are low life *** who will break a shopkeeper's fingers for not paying them money not to. Or breaking into someone's house, stealing their valuables and leaving them destitute and penniless. Just because the Thieves Guild is *generally* romanticized in the games, does not mean they aren't actually literal scum who ruin lives. And Nocturnal favors them.

Also, to say that Daedra are neither good nor evil is moral relativity at it's worst. Yes, some are neutralish with some rather harsh tendencies, but you really mean to tell me Molag Bal, King of *** is not outright evil? He literally gets off on defiling people and ruining them to the very soul. Not just beating them physically, but mentally, spiritually and sexually tormenting them until they are utterly broken. Mehrunes Dagon might have *some* positive traits if you squint real hard and don't think about it, but his whole bag is wanton destruction and violence for the sake of it. Some Daedric princes might be seen as 'not evil' through certain lenses, like Boethiah, or Malacath, but others it's pretty hard to look at and not say "Yeah. That Daedric Prince is downright evil."

HidesFromSun

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Derlfak wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Derlfak wrote: »

I just completed Clockwork City and it killed me to have to turn against Nocturnal like that. I've been RPing a character that follows/worships her, so it just feels like a betrayal. I hope that in the future ZOS will give us a choice to aid Nocturnal or not, or at the very least some sort of 'Ok' from her so it doesn't feel like i'm going against her.

Thats your personal opinion. But if they did that for Nocturnal then they would have to do that for the other princes involved, like even molag bal. So no I dont think they will give us any other options.

You're probably right, it's probably too much to ask. Like I say though, at least throw us Nocturnal worshippers a bone, even if it's just a line of dialogue that doesn't make you feel like a backstabbing traitor

Nocturnal is pretty big on double crossing and backstabbing. It's not like she's this super moral upright paragon. Beyond that, she is the Lady of Perpetual Mystery. You think all her worshippers and followers always act in complete concert and never conflict with each other? Who is to say that one sect coming to grips with another isn't somehow serving her greater plans?

It feels wrong going against her plans, but you make a good point. She is the Lady of mystery, so it's impossible to understand her motives. Still though, if there was some hint that it was Nocturnal's will to go against her, then that's one thing, but for the Vestige to choose to go against her felt wrong to me. It was more the Vestiges will than Nocturnal's

Nidraachal

Now that we're talking about "Good / Evil Daedra", why are you all forgetting dad Malacath? He's a cool guy. Probably one of the chillest Daedric Princes.

DoctorESO

Nidraachal wrote: »

Now that we're talking about "Good / Evil Daedra", why are you all forgetting dad Malacath? He's a cool guy. Probably one of the chillest Daedric Princes.

I wouldn't exactly call him "chill." LOL! He's very vindictive.

Almakor

Nidraachal wrote: »

Now that we're talking about "Good / Evil Daedra", why are you all forgetting dad Malacath? He's a cool guy. Probably one of the chillest Daedric Princes.

He's actually the only daedric prince to be showing sorrow in lore, when Sheogorath tricked him into killing and damning his mortal son in the Accords of Madness.

Almakor

Xvorg wrote: »

Almakor wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

She is a Daedric Prince. That she's enjoying to see mortals suffer, should come as a surprise to absolutely no one.

Get your lore right. Azura and Meridia don't like watching mortals suffer. But they can have anger issues.

I'm quite sure Azura enjoyed cursing the Chimer... regarding Meridia, mortals for her are just tools. If they suffer or not it doesn't matter as long they help to her purposses

Azura cursed the Chimer because they broke their oath to Nerevar not use the Heart of Lorkin. Personally, I can hardly consider a change in skin and eye color a curse.

VaranisArano

Almakor wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Almakor wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

She is a Daedric Prince. That she's enjoying to see mortals suffer, should come as a surprise to absolutely no one.

Get your lore right. Azura and Meridia don't like watching mortals suffer. But they can have anger issues.

I'm quite sure Azura enjoyed cursing the Chimer... regarding Meridia, mortals for her are just tools. If they suffer or not it doesn't matter as long they help to her purposses

Azura cursed the Chimer because they broke their oath to Nerevar not use the Heart of Lorkin. Personally, I can hardly consider a change in skin and eye color a curse.

And then she also left them to the tender mercies of Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil, who given that Vivec eventually destroys Vvardenfell with his arrogance with Baar Dau, Almalexia turns into a power-hungry madwoman who fails to preserve Morrowind against the coming disaster of Red Year, and Sotha Sil has his own dystopia going on in the Clockwork City that probably didn't last all that well once he died...that might be a pretty effective curse after all.

Sometimes getting what you think you want is the worst curse of all.

Maura_Neysa

Wow, the amount of lore miss information going on here. Meridia and Azura are the only 2 that are actively good. Meridian hates undead though, werewolves and vampires. There are severed Daedric Prince that are not nessesarily bad, Hircine, Sheogorath, Malecath, Edit:Jyggalag and Nocturnal. If you have finished the Clockwork quest you know exactly why she is "evil"

Sotha Sil has the Skelton Key

as for the coalition only Seht says this and there is a whole lot of lore behind why you might not want to go believing what the Tribunal has to say. I'm only dissapointed that this wasn't an option when finishing Clockwork

take the Skeleton Key and give it back to Nocturnal. Unlock Nightingale costume.

VaranisArano

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

I'm only dissapointed that this wasn't an option when finishing Clockwork

take the Skeleton Key and give it back to Nocturnal. UnlockNightingale costume.

That would have been a much better reward than what Sotha Sil gave me, just saying.

FakeFox

1. Nocturnal is absolutely evil. The only ones that see her as good are the thiefs guild and they are evil themselves.
2. In the case of CWC she does not really interfere with the mortal realm, but with CWC and the Tribunal. I would not count the Tribunal as mortals in that regard, they wield considerable power that can pose a possible threat for daedric princes.

Maura_Neysa

FakeFox wrote: »

1. Nocturnal is absolutely evil. The only ones that see her as good are the thiefs guild and they are evil themselves.
2. In the case of CWC she does not really interfere with the mortal realm, but with CWC and the Tribunal. I would not count the Tribunal as mortals in that regard, they wield considerable power that can pose a possible threat for daedric princes.

How is she evil when she doesn't interact with motels at all? Except for Nightingale (not any of the rest of the Thieves Guild) and then only to protect her Daedric artifact.

Also, time to brush up on your lore.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:823877

dodgehopper_ESO

FakeFox wrote: »

1. Nocturnal is absolutely evil. The only ones that see her as good are the thiefs guild and they are evil themselves.
2. In the case of CWC she does not really interfere with the mortal realm, but with CWC and the Tribunal. I would not count the Tribunal as mortals in that regard, they wield considerable power that can pose a possible threat for daedric princes.

There is reason to believe as well that Vivec and Sotha Sil live on. I do not believe Almalexia manages that.

VaranisArano

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

1. Nocturnal is absolutely evil. The only ones that see her as good are the thiefs guild and they are evil themselves.
2. In the case of CWC she does not really interfere with the mortal realm, but with CWC and the Tribunal. I would not count the Tribunal as mortals in that regard, they wield considerable power that can pose a possible threat for daedric princes.

There is reason to believe as well that Vivec and Sotha Sil live on. I do not believe Almalexia manages that.

After TES III's Tribunal Expansion?

Sotha Sil is dead, murdered by Almalexia, who then attempts to murder the Nerevarine as well and gets killed for her troubles. Vivec vanishes prior to Red Year, unless you chose the alternate Main Quest where you kill him and get Yagrum Bagarn to help you with Wraithguard.

Xvorg

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Wow, the amount of lore miss information going on here. Meridia and Azura are the only 2 that are actively good. [/spoiler]

There's no "good daedra" as well as no "bad daedra", they just do things. If those things are in line with mortal purposses it's just coincidence.

Hence Meridia hates any kind of undead, so does Meridia have a different feeling for a guy like Verandis? She depises him in the same way she depises Lamae, no matter what good he can do to mortals.

All Daedra are quite straightforward on their goals and will do anything to accomplish them.