Nocturnal is the Enemy?

Almakor

In the Clockwork City dlc, Nocturnal is the main antagonist and is hinted to be part of an "evil" alliance of lesser Princes that include Clavicus Vile and possibly Mephala. But that doesn't match with previous lore that describes Nocturnal at all. Nor does it match how she behaved in previous games. Unlike the other two Princes, Nocturnal has never actively tried to interfere with the mortal realm. At least, not on the level of Clavicus Vile and Mephala. Nor has she shown to have a sadistic nature where she enjoys watching mortals suffer. All in all, it makes no sense that she would be a main antagonist.

alephthiago

I agree with you, Nocturnal loves us all and keeps us under her shadowy embrace.

VaranisArano

Nocturnal interferes with the mortal realm plenty. She just does it from the shadows, through her own agents like the Thieves Guild. Those can have pretty big consequences, like in TES IV Oblivion when

The Gray Fox can't reveal his true identity, meaning the Countess Umbranox of Anvil thinks her husband has left her.

Or in Skyrim where

The Thieves Guild is in a bad way because they've lost Nocturnal's favor. With Nocturnal's favor or the help of an individual that Nocturnal favors the Thieves Guild is able to extend their reach across Skyrim.

Varana

She is a Daedric Prince. That she's enjoying to see mortals suffer, should come as a surprise to absolutely no one.

Almakor

Varana wrote: »

She is a Daedric Prince. That she's enjoying to see mortals suffer, should come as a surprise to absolutely no one.

Get your lore right. Azura and Meridia don't like watching mortals suffer. But they can have anger issues.

Almakor

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nocturnal interferes with the mortal realm plenty. She just does it from the shadows, through her own agents like the Thieves Guild. Those can have pretty big consequences, like in TES IV Oblivion when

The Gray Fox can't reveal his true identity, meaning the Countess Umbranox of Anvil thinks her husband has left her.

Or in Skyrim where

The Thieves Guild is in a bad way because they've lost Nocturnal's favor. With Nocturnal's favor or the help of an individual that Nocturnal favors the Thieves Guild is able to extend their reach across Skyrim.

All those happened because of what mortals did. The mortals went to her. But Princes like Mephala go to the mortals.

Elsonso

There isn't really such a thing as a good Daedric Prince. At best, they are generally tolerable, like Azura and Meridia. In the end, they have their own agendas and the means by which to accomplish them, and these do not necessarily line up with what is best for mortals.

VaranisArano

Well you do have the Three Good Daedra for the Dunmer: Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Almakor

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well you do have the Three Good Daedra for the Dunmer: Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I'd say Azura is the only "good" Daedra among those three. Boethia loves strife and division and Mephala loves lies and betrayal.

Elsonso

Almakor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well you do have the Three Good Daedra for the Dunmer: Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I'd say Azura is the only "good" Daedra among those three. Boethia loves strife and division and Mephala loves lies and betrayal.

...and spiders. Nothing good comes from loving spiders.

VaranisArano

A good look at why the Dunmer regard Boethiah as one of the Good Daedra: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Boethiah

Mephala: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Mephala

A particular quote:
"Back in the Merethic Era, Boethiah "illuminated" the Prophet Veloth and his Chimer followers to renounce all ties to the Aldmer and found a new nation based on Daedric principles (present-day Morrowind). Azura taught the Chimer the mysteries needed to be different than the Altmer. Mephala taught the Chimer the skills they would need to evade their enemies or to kill them with secret murder. Enemies were numerous in those days since the Chimer was a small faction. Mephala, along with Boethiah, organized the clan systems that eventually became the basis for the Great Houses of the Dunmer. Mephala created an assassin guild, the Morag Tong."

So the Dunmer regard them as Good because those three Daedric Princes helped them to become the Chimer. And if you think that being good at murder, lies, betrayal, strife, and the like are a bad thing in Dunmer society, clearly you haven't been paying much attention to Dunmer society.

SirAxen

Nocturnal very much so is a Deadric Prince, not to mention ESO takes place well before any of the single player games.

Almakor

Well are there any developers out there who would be willing to tell me why they chose Nocturnal as an antagonist?

Elsonso

Almakor wrote: »

Well are there any developers out there who would be willing to tell me why they chose Nocturnal as an antagonist?

Sure, but none from ZOS.

Ratzkifal

Can we be sure that Nocturnal has never been like that before? I doubt it. My guess is that she just appeared to be nice because whenever we saw her in other games, because we were already working for her. She might just be one of those Daedra that care at least a bit about their worshippers/agents.
I am sure that once you get on Meridia's bad side you will have a hard time considering her a good Daedra as well. For Nocturnal, being on her bad side might just be the default status for mortals.

SirAxen

It strikes me more as Nocturnal being an opportunist than an outright villain.

commdt

All daedras are enemies, Azura included. Dunmers should realize it already

Izaki

Nocturnal is pretty badass.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Almakor wrote: »

Well are there any developers out there who would be willing to tell me why they chose Nocturnal as an antagonist?

If I were to hazard a guess, it would be because she hasn't had a lot of screen time relative to some of the other Princes - Mehrunes Dagon got the Oblivion main quest, Sheogorath got the Shivering Isles expansion, Hermaeus Mora got the Dragonborn expansion, and Hircine got the Bloodmoon expansion. And of course Molag Bal got the vanilla main quest for ESO. Whereas Nocturnal had a couple Thieves Guild questlines, and the Daedric quest they all get in each single player game, and that's about it. She's never been a headliner before, so she's an excellent candidate to have her lore expanded.

Cadbury

Almakor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well you do have the Three Good Daedra for the Dunmer: Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I'd say Azura is the only "good" Daedra among those three.

I see Azura as manipulative and a bit vindictive. She's just more subtle about it.

VaranisArano

Cadbury wrote: »

Almakor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well you do have the Three Good Daedra for the Dunmer: Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I'd say Azura is the only "good" Daedra among those three.

I see Azura as manipulative and a bit vindictive. She's just more subtle about it.

That's pretty fitting for the Dunmer, actually.

Cadbury

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Almakor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well you do have the Three Good Daedra for the Dunmer: Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I'd say Azura is the only "good" Daedra among those three.

I see Azura as manipulative and a bit vindictive. She's just more subtle about it.

That's pretty fitting for the Dunmer, actually.

Heh, I guess that's why Azura is considered "good" by Dunmer standards. Everyone else is too overt in their intentions

ArrerBoy

You all seem to misunderstand. You are prescribing the mortal concepts of 'good' and 'evil' to things that aren't mortal or capable of acting mortal. What may seem as 'evil' to the outside observer may in fact just be them playing some greater game amongst each other as every scheme they pull is meant to be a part of a greater scheme that the other Princes keep to themselves. What we see here is Nocturnal being 'a ***'. Even Molag Bal, supreme *** that he is, makes it clear occaisionally when you break his anchors that you are still helping him even as you thwart him.

commdt wrote: »

All daedras are enemies, Azura included. Dunmers should realize it already

The Princes helped them survive Morrowind when they first arrived, hence why they are venerated, some directly, and other indirectly. Azura was one of the former.

Camb0Sl1ce

from what i understand about lore, the aedra can not create or destroy they just "are" the daedra on the otherhandand are able to do that. They are able to intervene in mortal lives, whether for good or evil which is subjective. fot example i wouldnt put mehrunes dagon in the same category as meridia. From what i understand its just that daedra are capable of interacting with mortals.

LittlePinkDot

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

from what i understand about lore, the aedra can not create or destroy they just "are" the daedra on the otherhandand are able to do that. They are able to intervene in mortal lives, whether for good or evil which is subjective. fot example i wouldnt put mehrunes dagon in the same category as meridia. From what i understand its just that daedra are capable of interacting with mortals.

The aedra are bound to mundus, most of their energy was spent creating nirn and the elhnofey.
The daedra and the magna ge like magnus saw Lorkhans trap and refused to participate, so they kept all their creative power. Daedric princes create their own realms from themselves, but it pales in comparison to the greatness of Nirn. As the saying goes "you get what you pay for."

DocFrost72

Almakor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well you do have the Three Good Daedra for the Dunmer: Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I'd say Azura is the only "good" Daedra among those three. Boethia loves strife and division and Mephala loves lies and betrayal.

There are no good daedra, because aedra and daedra transcend morality.

Example: Arkay forbids undeath in any manifestation. Media also hates undeath. Arkay's one of the "good guys", Meridia is one of the "bad guys". I have news for you though. If your father was turned into a vampire protecting you, only to use his undeath as a vehicle to slaughter other undead, they would both command you to kill your father. No ifs, ands, or buts.

As for Azura, well...

This one time, in daggerfall...

"You dare summon forth Azura of the Crimson Gate, pleading for power? I don't know if you are worthy of such favor. In fact, I doubt it very much. I suppose that if I demanded that you murder a priest who has been saying very, very rude things about me, you would refuse even that small, simple request. Would you do that for me?"

http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Azura's_Quest

/shrug I'm a nut about daedra, love the concept. Rule 1: "No daedra is benevolent."

Konstant_Tel_Necris

Almakor wrote: »

In the Clockwork City dlc, Nocturnal is the main antagonist and is hinted to be part of an "evil" alliance of lesser Princes that include Clavicus Vile and possibly Mephala. But that doesn't match with previous lore that describes Nocturnal at all. Nor does it match how she behaved in previous games. Unlike the other two Princes, Nocturnal has never actively tried to interfere with the mortal realm. At least, not on the level of Clavicus Vile and Mephala. Nor has she shown to have a sadistic nature where she enjoys watching mortals suffer. All in all, it makes no sense that she would be a main antagonist.

Actually as we know Nocturnal have own decision go against Sotha Sil.
You need to know that's after destruction of Mournhold, Sotha made deal with most powerful Princes of Oblivion, so they were bound by rules of Summoning, why Princes agree with Soth Sil? Because he threats them with his clockwork bomb of course.
Sotha Sil see them as Imperfection that's plague Nirn and his Clockwork City was tool that's can change reality and shape of Nirn, to world without Princes, seems Clavicus Vile, Nocturnal and Mephala was against such ideas and try interference as we see in ESO.

From other side you also should check Song of Hrormir about Nocturnal, she is not "Good" I dont think such teamplates can be aplied to Princes, they are not mortals and see world in other specter.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/song-hrormir

Almakor

Konstant_Tel_Necris wrote: »

Almakor wrote: »

In the Clockwork City dlc, Nocturnal is the main antagonist and is hinted to be part of an "evil" alliance of lesser Princes that include Clavicus Vile and possibly Mephala. But that doesn't match with previous lore that describes Nocturnal at all. Nor does it match how she behaved in previous games. Unlike the other two Princes, Nocturnal has never actively tried to interfere with the mortal realm. At least, not on the level of Clavicus Vile and Mephala. Nor has she shown to have a sadistic nature where she enjoys watching mortals suffer. All in all, it makes no sense that she would be a main antagonist.

Actually as we know Nocturnal have own decision go against Sotha Sil.
You need to know that's after destruction of Mournhold, Sotha made deal with most powerful Princes of Oblivion, so they were bound by rules of Summoning, why Princes agree with Soth Sil? Because he threats them with his clockwork bomb of course.
Sotha Sil see them as Imperfection that's plague Nirn and his Clockwork City was tool that's can change reality and shape of Nirn, to world without Princes, seems Clavicus Vile, Nocturnal and Mephala was against such ideas and try interference as we see in ESO.

From other side you also should check Song of Hrormir about Nocturnal, she is not "Good" I dont think such teamplates can be aplied to Princes, they are not mortals and see world in other specter.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/song-hrormir

I'm not talking about good or evil, I'm talking how there are Princes who like watching mortals suffer (like Clavicus Vile and Mephala) there are those that have shown to be indifferent to mortals (like Nocturnal) and don't care about them one way or the other.

ArchMikem

Cadbury wrote: »

Almakor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well you do have the Three Good Daedra for the Dunmer: Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala. They aren't exactly the kind and gentle sort of good, being more of the mentality that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I'd say Azura is the only "good" Daedra among those three.

I see Azura as manipulative and a bit vindictive. She's just more subtle about it.

She's also the mother of all Khajiit.

thawks

If Nocturnal was indifferent to mortals she wouldn't engage with them at all. She obviously cares enough to answer summons, lets herself be worshipped, and strikes bargains with would-be Nightingales. She's just not as obviously malicious as certain other Princes.

We don't know what the Triad's end game is, or what their motives are. They want to own Nirn, but we don't know why or how.

Integral1900

Nocturnal is an utterly amoral force, she... or more correctly it... will do whatever it needs to fulfill its desires regardless of the consequences to others, mortals are chaff to the princes and we need to remember that.