Battlegrounds are garbage now

jaws343

Mihael wrote: »

Yup there are a ton of solutions that could be implemented to fix the premades problem such as separate ques or better ranking system but in the end they would not work because their are not enough players and unfortunately it doesn’t look like zos will do anything meaningful to increase pop

At what point do we all realize that the lack of players may be due to an aversion of facing pre-made groups? Discouragement goes a long way in keeping players away from content.

Lexxypwns

Mayrael wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

CP BG is no Fun

Update your build to CPs and youll be ok, its not because of CPs.
@Sotha_Sil made earlier some very good points about what is wrong with BGs. Its still new element of the game and needs to evolve and it needs right direction - making BGs non-CP wont solve its problems (even when there was no CPs in BGs, when you were grouped with <500 CPs you could be almost sure you will loose - its not the matter of CPs, sorry, its about skills and knowledge about BG modes)

lol, 3 of probably the top 5 BG players on Xbox NA were below 500 CP before the change. News flash, Kal is still competitive with only 450ish CP.

It's got nothing to do with updating your build or getting more skilled man, its the fact that the CP system is designed in such a way that it favors defense too heavily, artificially increasing TTK and making punishing mistakes much more difficult.

del9

I preferred no-CP to CP BGs, but now having played them a while since patch, I'd like to address one of the major complaints - survivability is too high. I disagree. Yes, CP has increased the overall survivability of players, and slowed the pace of gameplay SOMEWHAT.

But tanks aren't the problem they are in CYRO. In BGs, without a tree or rock to kite indefinitely, every tank goes down eventually. On static objectives, they get focused and have no environmental defense. Yes, a chunky 4-man can be frustrating in a game of Chaosball, but in my experience, CP is not an issue when compared to population, lack of casual queues, and others.

Kartalin

I agree @del9, really the only time it gets bad is when you have a pair running guard, and most of the time you don’t actually have to fight them unless they manage to get the chaosball. In that case they’re still less annoying than when the sprinters grab it and you have to chase them down.

Waffennacht

Kartalin wrote: »

I agree @del9, really the only time it gets bad is when you have a pair running guard, and most of the time you don’t actually have to fight them unless they manage to get the chaosball. In that case they’re still less annoying than when the sprinters grab it and you have to chase them down.

Did face a team that had two guards, each guarding the other non guard.

My advice? FLEE!

JWillCHS

One way to increase the BG population is to make them available to every player who purchased the game; not just the Morrowind expansion pack.

No-CP makes Battlegrounds more inclusive as the barrier to being competitive has dropped. You just need 160 CP with a set put together for
Battlegrounds.

Balance is just a huge problem in ESO considering the amount of options available to you when building a character. I personally believe with no-CP the classes were more in line with one another. You just had their natural strengths and weaknesses. You couldn't buff your damage, sustain, or defense outside of set bonuses.

Theres no additional recovery or magicka/stamina/health. Once you start executing abilities your resource pool starts to drain, and you're more reliant on heavy attacks in long winded fights. There's only so many times you can dodge roll, break free, and block. There's only so many times you can shield stack, escape, or use Breath of Life. The time to kill is quicker.

There were tanky builds and premade groups in no-CP. And we all remember the horrible proc builds. They were just more manageable by PUGs.

GrigorijMalahevich

Can’t really comment seriously as played about 10 games nocp on magsorc and 15 games CP on heavy stamden CP are ok, nope CP should be removed from PvP or heavy armor should just go...

CP is cancer of PvP... Just remember all the new threads thanking ZoS when there was nocp PvP week, it is above me to understand why the hell has anyone decided that all that community feedback is irrelevant...

gabormezo

Lemme represent the other side of the spectrum. I didn't play BG in non-CP because I don't like the idea of stripping me of the results and advantages of my well earned progression. I've joined to BGs recently after months of non stop Cryo an IC playing.

And I find BG a lot of fun. It's just epic. And I really haven't faced the issues like the above.

I play alone as a pug. Today for example I had 6 matches in a row. Won 3 lost 3. On the summary I can often see teams with equal points. I did not see an exceptional team for days. Were them premade? Should I care?

Is everyone a tank? I don't believe so. I can see diversity of tanks, mostly DKs, shield stackers, burst nbs, tree spamers, exactly like in Cryo. Except there are no zergs. Here we have a chance to stay on ground for long enough to enjoy the fight actually. There is enough kills, assists and deaths, it isn't a tank fest.

The only whining I have is that ZOS should allow everyone to play BG. More players, more diversity, mire fun.

maboleth

gabormezo wrote: »

Lemme represent the other side of the spectrum. I didn't play BG in non-CP because I don't like the idea of stripping me of the results and advantages of my well earned progression. I've joined to BGs recently after months of non stop Cryo an IC playing.

Typical "I paid it therefore have every right to demand" type comment. Your "results and advantages of your well earned progression" doesn't mean that you are inferior if you are disregarding the entire CP tree. Or that you are superior because you collected and allocated 690 points. Your playing ability isn't suddenly lessened without CP. Quite the contrary - good non-cp players can be even better in CP and vice versa. Less is more.

I love CP passives, I think there are some very creative and useful ones. Certainly it's better after ZOS tweaked many of them, forcing us to spread the points to more places. I always care where I put those points.

BUT, CP are also toxic for PVP, especially fast-paced battlegrounds. It effectively makes some players reach god-mode in both damage and sustain. The room for abuse or trolling is huge.

I have played Vivec for 2 years. But Sotha Sil, that I started playing lately, truly opened my eyes how Cyrodiil can be fun and fast at the same time. Everyone can be killed faster, especially if they don't react quickly. There's so much less toxic builds, you can play both in group and solo. You can, as a single player, neutralize zerg members one by one. Damage is less, but so is sustain and pool of magicka/stamina recovery - for everyone.

You realize that all players use several core parameters, they are not hidden behind the heavily tweaked CP wall. Playing good in non-cp means fast reflexes, extremely good use of tactics and resources as you can run dry much faster. Overall, more energetic and enjoyable experience.

Now Battlegrounds are all about speed and making progress in a very limited time. Players should feel more or less equal, stats wise. So can't see a single reason for CP there. But fair enough - make non-cp mode available as well. Alas there are not enough of players for that, currently.

Gprime31

jrgray93 wrote: »

It's been said a thousand times but battlegrounds are a complete waste of time since CP was added. There is no longer a competition. The winning team is decided by which team is a premade or has the most cheese builds. I swear, every single match anymore is against four players spamming Stampede and Dizzying Swing with the occasional Dawnbreaker, taking down 25k health, 3k crit resist, and 25k+ physical resist inside a second. I'm also max CP with a well min/maxed setup, yet I get shredded so fast I can't even react.

10+ matches today and every one was vs a premade. Players on the other teams just keep leaving because the premade is cleaning house. Nobody comes in to replace them because everyone is giving up on this awful experience.

I suppose my frustrations are just furthered by the absolute dumpster fire that magicka templars are right now. Being outclassed and outgunned in every possible way sure makes things frustrating, but at least I had a chance in non-CP.

Geee...no one saw this coming..... #sarcasm

misfitmanic

jrgray93 wrote: »

It's been said a thousand times but battlegrounds are a complete waste of time since CP was added. There is no longer a competition. The winning team is decided by which team is a premade or has the most cheese builds. I swear, every single match anymore is against four players spamming Stampede and Dizzying Swing with the occasional Dawnbreaker, taking down 25k health, 3k crit resist, and 25k+ physical resist inside a second. I'm also max CP with a well min/maxed setup, yet I get shredded so fast I can't even react.

10+ matches today and every one was vs a premade. Players on the other teams just keep leaving because the premade is cleaning house. Nobody comes in to replace them because everyone is giving up on this awful experience.

I suppose my frustrations are just furthered by the absolute dumpster fire that magicka templars are right now. Being outclassed and outgunned in every possible way sure makes things frustrating, but at least I had a chance in non-CP.

I really loved this game, but the whole "Play how you want" thing is complete BS at this point. It is either run a cookie cutter fotm build or get wrecked in PVP. Cyrodiil is the same, but with bigger numbers. And that is just with the current in-game "balance". Add in the plague of exploits and CE users and what was a fun experience is now a total lagfest nightmare.

Dottzgaming

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Cp is not the root of the problem. BGs are not fun for all these reasons :

- You can't choose the battleground mode you want to play. You are forced to randomly play the one they tell you to.
- Game starts even if your team is not complete which will most of the time conclude in you losing the game
- All CPs are allowed. When you see a low cp (10 to 600) coming in your group, you will probably lose the game
- 4vs4vs4 : fun at the beginning but boring in the end -> 2 teams versus one happens a lot.
- poor game modes and no arenas ?? Imperial city arena anyone?
- poor alliance points compared to cyrodiil unless you win all the games or it's 3 am and everyone is sleeping in cyro.
- people just don't understand the purpose of capturing the flag (domination / crazy king) games => they just don't play the game and try to kill everybody which results in you losing the game.
- no spectator mode?
- you can't create your own closed games
- power sigil in deathmatch mode ? why the need to put this buff?

Gonna have to agree with alot of this. I get why ZoS enabled CP in BGs. they werent getting a whole lot of play, people clearly were playing CP pvp more, makes sense to enable CP in bgs. while i dont know if it was the best thing, i get the train of thought. i think the core issue with BGs though is not a CP vs noCP issue, but instead the fact that that there is alot of fundamental flaws and they arent what players really wanted or expected when they were first announced.

I think the thing with Battlegrounds is alot of people expected it to be like arena from other games: 3v3, 4v4 or 5v5 (whatever ZoS decided on) arena deathmatch with a leaderboard and MMR. instead, we got a random BG system that puts you in a game mode with a mixture of pug and premade groups with all these different game modes that just honestly is a mess.

i was super excited for BGs when they came out in morrowind: instant combat i can queue in to where i can just fight people instead of playing horse simulator in cyrodiil. but as theyve evolved i find myself enjoying them less and less. theyre still kinda fun, dont get me wrong, but they have alot of innate issues.

I think in theory, it would be better to have a solo/duo queue and a team queue, but as others have pointed out, i dont know if BGs has the population to support that. I think maybe a temporary bandaid would be a solo/duo queue option only and add team queue later as population increases? im not entirely sure. but the current state of mixing pugs and premades is just making the entire experience horrible.

Although yes ESO has 3 factions, i didnt see the need for 3 teams in BGs. Keeping this at 2 would have made things much better. And based on the size of the maps, i think a 5v5 could be perfectly viable option to keep the maps feel like theyre filled with players.

The rewards also need to be comparable to Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil just has significantly better return on investment (time played) than BGs do. Which i think needs to be addressed.

As Sotha Sil said, closed matches with a spectator client would be awesome, teams should be filled before the game starts, and power sigil in team deathmatch is dumb.

Dreth

jaws343 wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Yup there are a ton of solutions that could be implemented to fix the premades problem such as separate ques or better ranking system but in the end they would not work because their are not enough players and unfortunately it doesn’t look like zos will do anything meaningful to increase pop

At what point do we all realize that the lack of players may be due to an aversion of facing pre-made groups? Discouragement goes a long way in keeping players away from content.

I cant imagine if I was new to PvP and BG's would be my first look at PvP. BG's favor really only one type of build, premades shut you down instantly, people leave, people trash talk their own team constantly....the experience overall is really extremely toxic. I pretty much never leave Cyrodiil but even as an experienced player I avoid BG's like the plague.

Kolache

Whether it's CP vs. no-CP or premade vs. PUGs, this isn't exactly the first time an MMO has had this dilemma. Although you want to please your veterans, PvP (IMO) will be a fraction of what it could be if your systems don't lure new blood in (and keep some of them playing PvP). The complexity of set/build combinations and the nuances of combat are enough for a new player to overcome without adding more math advantages and stacked teams.

I wouldn't trust this one to a vote--this needs to be a design decision from a "big picture" perspective. It's like asking people if they want you to decrease gold drops from NPCs for the good of the economy. Of course people want whatever you've already given them.

ChunkyCat

Add a solo que and I’d start BG’ing again.

I know, I know... it’s an mmo. I just prefer to get in the game and do some small scale PvP without having to ask a bunch of people for a group. No CP gave me that option, even if I ended up playing against some premades.

But with CP enabled, solo BG queue is suicide.

gabriebe

It's kind of a vicious circle. I brought a new player today to BGs. He's CP70, I crafted him his first set. I told him he'd get destroyed but I figured he should still get a taste of it. Get in, I know exactly who the players are, I know they're in a premade. They're nearly all Grand Overlords. I'm average at best. Of course we got destroyed. The problems BGs have would be a lot less if there were simply a greater basin of players to choose from. At the moment, the only people playing em are the people who are really good at it.

commdt

Like they were not all the time with such miserable rewards

Rickter

gabriebe wrote: »

The problems BGs have would be a lot less if there were simply a greater basin of players to choose from. At the moment, the only people playing em are the people who are really good at it and who bought morrowind.

Corrected that for you buddy

Lexxypwns

Dreth wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Yup there are a ton of solutions that could be implemented to fix the premades problem such as separate ques or better ranking system but in the end they would not work because their are not enough players and unfortunately it doesn’t look like zos will do anything meaningful to increase pop

At what point do we all realize that the lack of players may be due to an aversion of facing pre-made groups? Discouragement goes a long way in keeping players away from content.

I cant imagine if I was new to PvP and BG's would be my first look at PvP. BG's favor really only one type of build, premades shut you down instantly, people leave, people trash talk their own team constantly....the experience overall is really extremely toxic. I pretty much never leave Cyrodiil but even as an experienced player I avoid BG's like the plague.

I carry pugs against pre-mades all the time. Only the elite pre-made groups shut people out, the average 4 stack isn’t good enough to prevent a pug from winning.

Beardimus

ChunkyCat wrote: »

. I just prefer to get in the game and do some small scale PvP without having to ask a bunch of people for a group. No CP gave me that option, even if I ended up playing against some premades.

.

Agreed, but for me its less about success or failure as both possible with pug or premade. It's about the pace gift being less enjoyable

Kartalin

Had a bg the other night where I queued with a friend so it was us plus two others (I think @Mihael was there). But the other two groups were 4 person premades who happen to be very friendly. They weren’t even attacking each other, apparently they just decided to gang up, hang out on either side of our spawn point, and bully our team instead, while using each other to build ultimate. That wasn’t all that bad though, to me the worst part was I knew two of these eight players from guild, people I’ve known and played with for years. That’s not something you do to friends, I don’t care how funny you think it is, it’s *** up. You don’t do that *** to friends and guildmates.

I guess my biggest mistake was thinking I could do a couple casual BGs to finish out the night. You shouldn’t go to BGs looking for some fun, balanced fights because most of what’s left are trolls and ***.

Thogard

Kartalin wrote: »

Had a bg the other night where I queued with a friend so it was us plus two others (I think @Mihael was there). But the other two groups were 4 person premades who happen to be very friendly. They weren’t even attacking each other, apparently they just decided to gang up, hang out on either side of our spawn point, and bully our team instead, while using each other to build ultimate. That wasn’t all that bad though, to me the worst part was I knew two of these eight players from guild, people I’ve known and played with for years. That’s not something you do to friends, I don’t care how funny you think it is, it’s *** up. You don’t do that *** to friends and guildmates.

I guess my biggest mistake was thinking I could do a couple casual BGs to finish out the night. You shouldn’t go to BGs looking for some fun, balanced fights because most of what’s left are trolls and ***.

Why were they teaming up on you?

There are two specific players that queue for BGs that have sent me so many salt whispers that now I will go out of my way to grief them.

I can’t imagine you upsetting someone that much though.

Kartalin

I think they got into the same match and decided to do it, regardless of who it was.

Mihael

They said it was to troll two people on or team but idc why it was a complete waste of a BG

disintegr8

I have never tried BG because to me it has as much appeal as dueling and Imperial City - absolutely zero.

Only ever dueled once, on a new level 5 character - the other guy left when he realized that neither of us was going to die. All my characters are now set to auto decline duels.

Thogard

Mihael wrote: »

They said it was to troll two people on or team but idc why it was a complete waste of a BG

was it my group? Because that sounds like something I'd do / say lol.

If it was, i promise you, they had it coming.

Qbiken

Solariken wrote: »

I totally agree that CP in PvP is effing stupid, I hate it so much. My biggest gripe is the opposite though - I hate that so many people are nigh unkillable.

Defensive mechanics are way too strong in CP PvP, most of which can be stacked to the moon whereas offensive utilities aren't stackable in the same way. Then you have the bass-ackward Wrobel design philosophy where most defensive ults and abilities are way cheaper than offensive ones which just exacerbates the problem.

If you read paulsimonps guide about how damage mitigation works, you´ll realise you can mitigate a huge amount of damage even without CP. Not saying CP doesn´t have a part in it, but I think the ability to boost your healing capacities with CP is the bigger issue, not the damage mitigation CP can offer. I like CP because I like the extra min-maxing aspect it gives my builds, and I can understand why people prefer no-CP, but even I wonder why ZOS keeps adding more CP for each update. In my opinion ZOS should stop adding more CP for a while, because I can´t imagine people feeling motivated to stay in the game to farm another 30 CP each update.

Emma_Overload

Mihael wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

And to the excuse of “just find friends to play with”
I for example could easily make a group of 4 good players but I don’t because it takes 0 skill to fight randoms when you are in a group of 4 and using discord i don’t know how that is fun to some people but I guess to each their own

Please do. Premades are a ton of fun to fight with other premades. THe best BG matches ive ever been in have been when we've had all premades.

More premades = better..

If you want to queue solo, go duel.

Dueling isn't nearly as much fun. Plus... Toxic players

I think dueling is fun cos it helps improve my skill the thing that ruins it for me is the people who make these cancer dueling builds like a health debuff build just to win 1v1

I don't look at it that way. I hate losing, but I enjoy learning from these guys how to improve my own build. Healing debuffs are a great example of the kind of thing I never would have thought to try if I hadn't seen someone else doing it. I learned how to make a really effective pet build from guys who beat me in 1v1.

Emma_Overload

Baconlad wrote: »

The issue with having all these "options" for bgs
-choosing gamemode
-premade vs premade, solo q vs solo q
-no cp vs cp
-ranked vs unranked
Is that there simply arent enough players interested. Players in ESO get scared of dieing...they cling to large zergs in cyrodil and the though of joining a 8 man team against your 4 man scares them. In top of that, with all the hatred towards no cp...cp...pugs vs premades, other players would rather just find an enemy resource and farm it, get tons more ap. Or zerg surf from keep to keep and make their AP and contributions that way.

I think your logic is faulty if you assume that having options splits the player base for BGs. Personally, I simply refused to play the No CP battlegrounds, and I know there are people who refuse to play them now because of CP. ZOS needs to stop worrying about numbers of players and just give people the choices they want. I believe that will grow the overall player base, not shrink it.

Thogard

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

The issue with having all these "options" for bgs
-choosing gamemode
-premade vs premade, solo q vs solo q
-no cp vs cp
-ranked vs unranked
Is that there simply arent enough players interested. Players in ESO get scared of dieing...they cling to large zergs in cyrodil and the though of joining a 8 man team against your 4 man scares them. In top of that, with all the hatred towards no cp...cp...pugs vs premades, other players would rather just find an enemy resource and farm it, get tons more ap. Or zerg surf from keep to keep and make their AP and contributions that way.

I think your logic is faulty if you assume that having options splits the player base for BGs. Personally, I simply refused to play the No CP battlegrounds, and I know there are people who refuse to play them now because of CP. ZOS needs to stop worrying about numbers of players and just give people the choices they want. I believe that will grow the overall player base, not shrink it.

maybe primetime US..

but the aussies wont get a single match if you split it.