Can we talk about Guard?

Hecker777

Okay, there have been hundreds of posts talking about how CP has ruined battlegrounds, and while I agree I think the major kicker for me is Guard. In a battleground a Templar/DK or 2 of either can apply guard and be pretty much unkillable by anything less than a 4 person coordinated ulti dump and a lot of luck. This makes games like CTF, Crazy King, and ESPECIALLY Chaosball almost unplayable and is highly annoying in DM but less gamebreaking. Guard was designed back when all we had was open world PvP where it was much easier to get separated and break guard, and there is usually more incoming damage on the whole. Please, an adjustment to Guard while in a battleground needs to be made

paulsimonps

Hecker777 wrote: »

Okay, there have been hundreds of posts talking about how CP has ruined battlegrounds, and while I agree I think the major kicker for me is Guard. In a battleground a Templar/DK or 2 of either can apply guard and be pretty much unkillable by anything less than a 4 person coordinated ulti dump and a lot of luck. This makes games like CTF, Crazy King, and ESPECIALLY Chaosball almost unplayable and is highly annoying in DM but less gamebreaking. Guard was designed back when all we had was open world PvP where it was much easier to get separated and break guard, and there is usually more incoming damage on the whole. Please, an adjustment to Guard while in a battleground needs to be made

I will tell you this, the 30% damage mitigation from guard is really big but the main thing about guard is the insanly low amount of damage that someone takes while guarding someone else. To give some more info about it here is what I wrote about Guard on my damage mitigation thread:

Now guard is an Alliance War Support ability. What it does is that you apply it to a friendly target and a beam will appear between you, any damage that the targeted ally takes will be mitigated by 30% but the damage will instead be taken by the caster. Now the damage that the caster takes can be mitigated as well, but not only from the casters mitigation but from the targeted allies mitigation as well, in layman's terms it double dips. It will however not use the casters blocking mitigation or anything that ”Increases amount of damage you can block”. This means that the actual damage that the caster takes is in most circumstances extremely low. One thing to note as well is that no matter what type of damage the targeted ally is taking the damage taken by the caster will always be physical damage.

Now on to the most confusing part of guard, what happens when the targeted ally uses a damage shield. What it does is that it will be reducing the damage taken by the caster by ~57.1% of the allies damage shields strength. So if the targeted ally takes 10,000 damage but uses a 5,000 damage shield the caster will take 855 damage (=10,000*0.3-(5,000x0.429)). There is no clear reason behind this and in my opinion it doesn't make any sense what so ever but that is how it works. It would make sense if it instead had the caster take 30% of the damage that the ally takes after the damage shield is depleted but that is not the case.

So not only does it double dip in mitigation, it has the crazy damage shield bit as well as the fact that its always Physical damage which you can use to your advantage when speccing builds. Guard is heavily used in PvP and only really used in Maw of Lorkhaj Rakkath fight for PvE. And this is a PvP Skill, it needs to be balanced a bit. Many things could be done in regards to that. I have a few suggestions, first and easiest one that would make things easy to understand, make the damage you take from Guard Oblivion damage. This would add a proper risk reward for protecting someone. Second suggestion, get rid of the double dip and the stupid damage shield bit and make the damage type change in accordance with the type of damage the protectie is taking.

There needs to be a risk to using Guard, at the moment there is no such risk. The protected ally could take a really strong base damage hit, get it reduced by 30%, that 30% could be 15k damage but the person using guard would only really take like 1k or even less. This was an example but you catch my drift, I could make a more detailed example with actual calculations but I don't feel its needed atm, I think we all know how little damage you take from using Guard already.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Hecker777

Wow. That example really deepened my understanding of that skill, and also made me truly realize how insanely imbalanced that is for a 4v4v4 scenario. I think the original intent for that skill was so that a tank could help a squish damage dealer survive, but when a heal tank casts it on a damage tank or vice versa, it is beyond imbalanced and broken.

Beardimus

Agreed. CP has ruined Battlegrounds, but also paired with Guard its ridiculous.

I think after this weekend I'm gunna park BG for a while and hit Sotha Sil. The funs been sucked right out of it.

Lexxypwns

I literally can’t notice a decrease in survivability when running the guard that gives vitality on my stam warden, there’s enough extra incoming healing that I really don’t notice unless someone eats an unblocked meteor or something

paulsimonps

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I literally can’t notice a decrease in survivability when running the guard that gives vitality on my stam warden, there’s enough extra incoming healing that I really don’t notice unless someone eats an unblocked meteor or something

Yup, when adding a permanent Minor vitality to the mix you gain even more survivablity on both sides. This minimizes the risk even more. Sure there is less reward in a sense cause you lose the constant minor force but you staying alive easier is a pro in and out of itself as well.

Can't stress enough how there is currently no risk in running Guard right now. Especially with CP, even a non tanky toon could use it on an ally and stay alive with minimal issues.

Waffennacht

Out of the pairs there's always one that can be melted. I focus and have the team focus them.

Also, you can soft/hard CC one of the two and knock back the other - this works especially well when you have the other's attention.

I've faced several pairs, however, when it's on me, I don't die

Thogard

I was wondering how long it would take before a post like this was made.

I agree 100%. Guard is the single most OP ability in the game.

Lexxypwns

Waffennacht wrote: »

Out of the pairs there's always one that can be melted. I focus and have the team focus them.

Also, you can soft/hard CC one of the two and knock back the other - this works especially well when you have the other's attention.

I've faced several pairs, however, when it's on me, I don't die

Depends how the pair is setup. Guard is actually best used with two tanky builds so you can double mitigate damage, imo. In these cases it’s just a matter of guard offering more utility than what you would get out of your other two bar slots. If I’ve got another warden I trust in group running fortress and corrupting then there’s literally no reason not to use guard on someone.

If you’re using it to protect a super squishy then they can still get rekt for sure though. A CC tank guarding a tanky magplar on the other hand...

That’s partially why, IMO, deathball team comp is stronger than dive

DosPanchos

Guard is the pain in the butt I encounter most in BG's. Permablockers, not so much.

Hecker777

DosPanchos wrote: »

Guard is the pain in the butt I encounter most in BG's. Permablockers, not so much.

Agreed. If it's a non chaosball/ctf then I can just ignore them, and if they are holding an objective usually they will end up getting focused hard enough to wear them down since they can't escape while blocking. Guard is wayyy worse.

Qbiken

paulsimonps wrote: »

Hecker777 wrote: »

Okay, there have been hundreds of posts talking about how CP has ruined battlegrounds, and while I agree I think the major kicker for me is Guard. In a battleground a Templar/DK or 2 of either can apply guard and be pretty much unkillable by anything less than a 4 person coordinated ulti dump and a lot of luck. This makes games like CTF, Crazy King, and ESPECIALLY Chaosball almost unplayable and is highly annoying in DM but less gamebreaking. Guard was designed back when all we had was open world PvP where it was much easier to get separated and break guard, and there is usually more incoming damage on the whole. Please, an adjustment to Guard while in a battleground needs to be made

I will tell you this, the 30% damage mitigation from guard is really big but the main thing about guard is the insanly low amount of damage that someone takes while guarding someone else. To give some more info about it here is what I wrote about Guard on my damage mitigation thread:

Now guard is an Alliance War Support ability. What it does is that you apply it to a friendly target and a beam will appear between you, any damage that the targeted ally takes will be mitigated by 30% but the damage will instead be taken by the caster. Now the damage that the caster takes can be mitigated as well, but not only from the casters mitigation but from the targeted allies mitigation as well, in layman's terms it double dips. It will however not use the casters blocking mitigation or anything that ”Increases amount of damage you can block”. This means that the actual damage that the caster takes is in most circumstances extremely low. One thing to note as well is that no matter what type of damage the targeted ally is taking the damage taken by the caster will always be physical damage.

Now on to the most confusing part of guard, what happens when the targeted ally uses a damage shield. What it does is that it will be reducing the damage taken by the caster by ~57.1% of the allies damage shields strength. So if the targeted ally takes 10,000 damage but uses a 5,000 damage shield the caster will take 855 damage (=10,000*0.3-(5,000x0.429)). There is no clear reason behind this and in my opinion it doesn't make any sense what so ever but that is how it works. It would make sense if it instead had the caster take 30% of the damage that the ally takes after the damage shield is depleted but that is not the case.

So not only does it double dip in mitigation, it has the crazy damage shield bit as well as the fact that its always Physical damage which you can use to your advantage when speccing builds. Guard is heavily used in PvP and only really used in Maw of Lorkhaj Rakkath fight for PvE. And this is a PvP Skill, it needs to be balanced a bit. Many things could be done in regards to that. I have a few suggestions, first and easiest one that would make things easy to understand, make the damage you take from Guard Oblivion damage. This would add a proper risk reward for protecting someone. Second suggestion, get rid of the double dip and the stupid damage shield bit and make the damage type change in accordance with the type of damage the protectie is taking.

There needs to be a risk to using Guard, at the moment there is no such risk. The protected ally could take a really strong base damage hit, get it reduced by 30%, that 30% could be 15k damage but the person using guard would only really take like 1k or even less. This was an example but you catch my drift, I could make a more detailed example with actual calculations but I don't feel its needed atm, I think we all know how little damage you take from using Guard already.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Very insightful, you just gave me more arguments to convince a friend of mine to run a guardtank with me in Cyrodil.

Rickter

while i agree its heavily imbalanced in a 4v4v4 scenario, please keep in mind that guard has essentially been a waste of a skill that has undergone multiple iterations for about 3 years.

Only the fall of 2016 did it really become a respectable and fondly utilized skill.

Hecker777

Rickter wrote: »

while i agree its heavily imbalanced in a 4v4v4 scenario, please keep in mind that guard has essentially been a waste of a skill that has undergone multiple iterations for about 3 years.

Only the fall of 2016 did it really become a respectable and fondly utilized skill.

And I am glad that it is useful, I know that it can be used tactically out in cyro, and it has been a big help in PvE. I am glad that it exists. I just have an issue with what it has become in BG's. I'll upload the video once I finish editing it, but I had 3 stam DPS all 3 proc'd up to about 5k weapon damage that couldnt even scratch one of those pairs.

Gilliamtherogue

Finally a thread complaining about the over performance of this skill. There's so many free advantages of this with so little sacrifice. The skill is in need of some major reworking on how it calculates damage, or a punishment for having it take too much damage.

Hecker777

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Finally a thread complaining about the over performance of this skill. There's so many free advantages of this with so little sacrifice. The skill is in need of some major reworking on how it calculates damage, or a punishment for having it take too much damage.

Why not have the guard break after x amount of damage taken and have an increased cost cooldown similar to streak? Like after the guard breaks the cost of this skill is increased by 60% for 5-10 seconds?

Or, reduction over time- the longer it is active the less damage is absorbed combined with some sort of re-cast penalty or cooldown.

I am by no means a game developer but those are just some ideas

paulsimonps

Hecker777 wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Finally a thread complaining about the over performance of this skill. There's so many free advantages of this with so little sacrifice. The skill is in need of some major reworking on how it calculates damage, or a punishment for having it take too much damage.

Why not have the guard break after x amount of damage taken and have an increased cost cooldown similar to streak? Like after the guard breaks the cost of this skill is increased by 60% for 5-10 seconds?

Or, reduction over time- the longer it is active the less damage is absorbed combined with some sort of re-cast penalty or cooldown.

I am by no means a game developer but those are just some ideas

I would much much rather have the mitigation part be changed. Make the damage taken by the skill Oblivion damage or make the mitigation not double dip and restrict what can mitigate it. Anything more than that would make it as useless as it was prechange, we want to balance it not break it.

Hecker777

paulsimonps wrote: »

Hecker777 wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Finally a thread complaining about the over performance of this skill. There's so many free advantages of this with so little sacrifice. The skill is in need of some major reworking on how it calculates damage, or a punishment for having it take too much damage.

Why not have the guard break after x amount of damage taken and have an increased cost cooldown similar to streak? Like after the guard breaks the cost of this skill is increased by 60% for 5-10 seconds?

Or, reduction over time- the longer it is active the less damage is absorbed combined with some sort of re-cast penalty or cooldown.

I am by no means a game developer but those are just some ideas

I would much much rather have the mitigation part be changed. Make the damage taken by the skill Oblivion damage or make the mitigation not double dip and restrict what can mitigate it. Anything more than that would make it as useless as it was prechange, we want to balance it not break it.

Hm, I like that too! I love hearing everyone’s ideas on stuff like this. I learn a ton.

montiferus

agree this needs to be changed