Dragonknights and the Thu'um

notimetocare

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Yeah, the key part of this is, "during the dragon wars." If I remember correctly, the people you see shouting in those sequences are dragonborn. This seems especially likely given that they could apparently create their own shouts.

They're not, because as you'll recall:

1.) The three of them kill a 'normal' dovah at the beginning of sequence, and no soul eating occurs.
2.) Gormlaith Golden-Hilt was killed by Alduin, and he didn't eat her soul on the spot.

They tried to get Miraak, but he turned them down.

The dragon language is in fact a language, so making up Dragonrend has less to do with inventing words and more to do with understanding mortality. Note that Alduin even uses the word for 'mortal' in his dialog – just not as a Shout.

starkerealm wrote: »

Not so much though. Because the shouts are still expressed verbally. That's universal between the player and NPCs. In fact the Dragons are using the same words to initiate them that the player will use. With practice you can recognize their shouts before the ability activates.

Yes, and what makes you think the abilities in the game aren't being spoken aloud? Because you don't hear it? That's a gameplay thing too: note that a number of abilities (not just DK) have no spoken dialog when used, but are nevertheless affected by the Silence effect of Negate Magic. Implying every ability that uses Magicka has some kind of spoken component.

But nobody wants to hear the exact same bit of speech every time they hit a button, because that would get obnoxious fast. So no voice acting for it.

starkerealm wrote: »

At this point, if you want to argue that the dragons use magicka to cast at a lore level, then you need to explain why they do, but a dragonborn does not. Then extrapolate from that why a DK would be more like a dragon than a human with the soul of a dragon. While still eschewing the primary element of the magic in question.

...I'm not, and I'm having trouble figuring out why you think I am. 'Dragonknights use Magicka for their abilities, therefore it can't be the Thu'um because the Thu'um doesn't use Magicka' is an invalid argument and that's why – it's a gameplay thing, set up to be usable by a player and/or maintained by the devs.

NPC tend to be more mechanical that lore (regarding resources). Most npc mages have infinite magicka

RinaldoGandolphi

Dragonknights are nout using the Th'uum or the Voice...they are using a form of Akaviri Magic to "emulate" Dragons.

Children of Sky is comparing A Shout to the Akaviri Kiai. Its "like" statement. Sorta like a compare and contrast, not that they are directly the same thing.

If the Akaviri are using "the Voice" then why are they looking for Reman? why do they bow and swear allegiance the minute they hear the sound of his Voice? Its because what Reman was doing is the "Real deal" and the Akaviri Kiai is infact Akaviri magic they created to "mimic dragons"

Remember Dragons came from Akavir.

The power of a Nord can be articulated into a shout, like the kiai of an Akaviri swordsman.

Read that statement out loud....they are saying a Nord shout "Is like" the kiai of an akaviri swordsman, that sentence is not inferring they are the same thing.

You don't have to be Dragonborn to use the Voice. the ones born with a natual affinity for learning it are called the Tongues by the Nords...they are not Dragonborn, but they have potential to learn. Ulfric Stormcloak was born with this affinity despite not being Dragonborn which is why the Greybeards permitted him to study with them as long as he followed the way whihc he talks about in dialogue.

The Akaviri created Kiai as a form of magic to emulate Dragons and to Emulate Dragon Shouts...its a form of magic...magic has many forms and styles and such.

The Storm Voice, or "the Voice" was actually bestowed upon mortal by Kyne....Kyne was the one who gave Gormaith, Hakon, and Felldir the affinity to learn how to shout like Dragons do, then Kyne convinced Paarthunax to teach them.

Dragons have always been able to shout, the Akaviri were jealous because they could not consume them and shout like them so they created a magic style(kiai) that imiated dragons as closely as they could...then they heard stories of men who could consume dragons and shout like dragons in a far away land and they came searching for him in the first era.

When they heard Reman shout "Fus Roh Dah" and "Yol Toor Shool" and "Zun, Haal, Viik" when they heard those words below out of his voice and things start happeneing...they knew they had found who they were looking for.....it was magic emulating dragons(kiai) but it was the REAL DEAL coming out of Remen's mouth....

starkerealm

notimetocare wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

MAEK wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »

Well not necessarily, thu'um is a form of magic used by the ancient nords, and is very difficult to master unless you are Dovahkiin, who can shout without training. Dragonknights in eso use Akarvi martial arts. Also, when you perform fire breath, your character is not heard shouting "YOL TOR SHUL" so...

Slight inaccuracy, but only slight: for ancient nords, it seems to be common. Either easy, innate, or the constant interactions with dragon overlords (and the need to fight back)

If you're judging by Skyrim, you only see high level draugr and dragon priests shouting.

The priests are a no brainer. They literally worshiped the dragons. That was their religion. So it's not surprising they'd know a few shouts.

With the high level draugr. (Overlords and above, I think, but I'm not 100% certain), then we can guess, based on context, that they were also fairly high ranking members of the Dragon Cult, below the priests. Also, I'd have to check, but my recollection is these guys only know one shout (all three words, but still), which isn't that impressive when you consider the player may be rocking 10-30 shouts by the end of the main quest.

There's some lore retcons with the Draugr, between TES3 and Skyrim. In Bloodmoon we were told that they were the product of a nord resorting to cannibalism before dying of starvation (or something to that effect), while the ones in Skyrim are preserved by the Dragon cult. This apparently includes the barrows on Solstheim in the 4th Era, so... *shrugs*

There was actually a lot of low level draugr who could shout, as restless draugr and above could shout (with some exceptions), at least acording to the elder scrolls wiki. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Draugr_(Skyrim)

Weird, that looks legit, and meshes with what I remember encountering years ago when I played Skyrim regularly, but isn't what I've been encountering this week when I was replaying it.

notimetocare wrote: »

In the main quest, you see that during the dragon wars, many were using Thu'um

Yeah, the key part of this is, "during the dragon wars." If I remember correctly, the people you see shouting in those sequences are dragonborn. This seems especially likely given that they could apparently create their own shouts.

Iffy, more than just those few main characters were using Thu'um. Big point in the dragon wars is mortals were taught directly by dragons

Yeah, that tracks.

starkerealm

notimetocare wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Yeah, the key part of this is, "during the dragon wars." If I remember correctly, the people you see shouting in those sequences are dragonborn. This seems especially likely given that they could apparently create their own shouts.

They're not, because as you'll recall:

1.) The three of them kill a 'normal' dovah at the beginning of sequence, and no soul eating occurs.
2.) Gormlaith Golden-Hilt was killed by Alduin, and he didn't eat her soul on the spot.

They tried to get Miraak, but he turned them down.

The dragon language is in fact a language, so making up Dragonrend has less to do with inventing words and more to do with understanding mortality. Note that Alduin even uses the word for 'mortal' in his dialog – just not as a Shout.

starkerealm wrote: »

Not so much though. Because the shouts are still expressed verbally. That's universal between the player and NPCs. In fact the Dragons are using the same words to initiate them that the player will use. With practice you can recognize their shouts before the ability activates.

Yes, and what makes you think the abilities in the game aren't being spoken aloud? Because you don't hear it? That's a gameplay thing too: note that a number of abilities (not just DK) have no spoken dialog when used, but are nevertheless affected by the Silence effect of Negate Magic. Implying every ability that uses Magicka has some kind of spoken component.

But nobody wants to hear the exact same bit of speech every time they hit a button, because that would get obnoxious fast. So no voice acting for it.

starkerealm wrote: »

At this point, if you want to argue that the dragons use magicka to cast at a lore level, then you need to explain why they do, but a dragonborn does not. Then extrapolate from that why a DK would be more like a dragon than a human with the soul of a dragon. While still eschewing the primary element of the magic in question.

...I'm not, and I'm having trouble figuring out why you think I am. 'Dragonknights use Magicka for their abilities, therefore it can't be the Thu'um because the Thu'um doesn't use Magicka' is an invalid argument and that's why – it's a gameplay thing, set up to be usable by a player and/or maintained by the devs.

NPC tend to be more mechanical that lore (regarding resources). Most npc mages have infinite magicka

Man, if we get into mechanics designed to operate under the hood, and call that lore friendly, we get into some weird territory fast. For example, did you know vampires are empowered by silver weapons? :P

That was a bug in Skyrim, but hey, now it's lore friendly.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I'm very amused by this assumption that it would somehow be easier for the Tsaesci to make fake dragon magic than just learn the real thing from the dragons they've been fighting for centuries. It is not, after all, as though the dragons are trying to keep it secret—they're literally shouting the magic words necessary every time they use it, and using them in normal conversation too. And because they're altering reality with these magic words when they Shout, it would quickly become obvious which does what. Only imagine how easy a real life foreign language lesson would be if every time the teacher said 'escargots' snails fell out of her mouth!

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

It makes sense the Tsaesci would hear rumors of people who could do what they couldn't(consume dragons) in a far of land and go in search of them in hopes of either learning how to do it themselves, or to rever the one who could.

Rumors nothing; they were the ones who had the prophecy that went on Alduin's wall, recall. And what exactly do you think is stopping the Tsaesci from learning the dragon language? Because you yourself admit they don't need to be Dragonborn to do that.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Read that statement out loud....they are saying a Nord shout "Is like" the kiai of an akaviri swordsman, that sentence is not inferring they are the same thing.

I pointed this out specifically in the OP; they're using it interchangeably, implying they are the same thing, just by a different name. 'When the [Nord remember] leader lets it out in a kiai, the doors are blown in, and the axemen rush into the city.' Are you trying to imply that the ancient Nords were using a type of magic you claim is exclusive to the Akaviri?

starkerealm wrote: »

Because they're not. Yes. And you can try to pawn that off as a gameplay consideration. But, it's worth remembering that Skyrim did not. You know, the single player games where your character isn't even voiced (normally), and yet there are 20 separate audio sets for the Thu'um.

Yes, but Skyrim is a single player game, so you're never going to have someone following you around going 'YOL TOOR SHUL' 'YOL TOOR SHUL' 'YOL TOOR SHUL' to troll. MMOs have to be wary of that. Witness the elk mount. And it doesn't have to be an inherently annoying sound either. For example did you hear, some stranger saved King Cassamir's life?! Likewise having a Shout resource to go along with Magicka and Stamina but only for one class would be a waste of dev resources; can you imagine what a nightmare that would be to balance?

So naturally an MMO is not going to go into the same depth with the mechanics as Skyrim did.

starkerealm wrote: »

In setting, but still secondary, from non-Thu'um practitioners. In contrast, we have primary sources such as Paarthurnax and Arngeir to use as explanations for how this stuff functions. Now, of your choice between a random member of the Mage's Guild, who has no specific experience with dragons, and confirmed Thu'um practitioners, you need to make a judgement call to which one is the more credible source.

@starkerealm I said I'd respond to this here and I am.

If you have some primary source--Akaviri warriors who can clearly state, 'our magic has nothing to do with real dragon magic' or an interview with the Greybeards hidden away somewhere—by all means produce it. Maybe Arngeir had a line of dialog I missed, or there's a quest I may not have played. Or if you know of a lorebook I'm forgetting? Maybe an interview with the devs? I am happy to consider any solid lore sources I may have overlooked.

But unless you have those sources, don't expect me to disregard multiple in-game accounts just because they're written down. Several people have made it clear they don't like the idea for some reason, but not liking it isn't actually proof to the contrary.

starkerealm wrote: »

the ability to actually summon dragons by uttering their name (and yes, there are dragons active in this era, just not many)... but, they can belch fire and set their weapons on fire. That's kind of like, but not the same as, some of the shouts.

...now is a bad time to remind you that the Tsaesci brought dragon mounts, isn't it? (And minor nitpick: I will remind that even the Last Dragonborn did not summon Odahviing as such. Odahviing was only compelled to come insofar as he wanted to do so.)

Again, the dragon language is in fact a language and the fact that a literal army of people who have been fighting with and against its speakers, and have had thousands of years collective exposure to it as a result should know different vocabulary and do different things with it than a single individual who has been scraping words out of tombs for maybe a year should not surprise you. The fact that none of the first group is Dragonborn - and thus can't learn each Shout nearly instantly - is a perfectly viable reason to focus on passing on a small subset deemed by those teaching to be most useful. It happened to be a different subset than what the Last Dragonborn picked up in Skyrim.

Tyrobag

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dragonknights are nout using the Th'uum or the Voice...they are using a form of Akaviri Magic to "emulate" Dragons.

Children of Sky is comparing A Shout to the Akaviri Kiai. Its "like" statement. Sorta like a compare and contrast, not that they are directly the same thing.

[1] If the Akaviri are using "the Voice" then why are they looking for Reman? why do they bow and swear allegiance the minute they hear the sound of his Voice? Its because what Reman was doing is the "Real deal" and the Akaviri Kiai is infact Akaviri magic they created to "mimic dragons"

[2] Remember Dragons came from Akavir.

The power of a Nord can be articulated into a shout, like the kiai of an Akaviri swordsman.

Read that statement out loud....they are saying a Nord shout "Is like" the kiai of an akaviri swordsman, that sentence is not inferring they are the same thing.

[3]You don't have to be Dragonborn to use the Voice. the ones born with a natual affinity for learning it are called the Tongues by the Nords...they are not Dragonborn, but they have potential to learn. Ulfric Stormcloak was born with this affinity despite not being Dragonborn which is why the Greybeards permitted him to study with them as long as he followed the way whihc he talks about in dialogue.

[4]The Akaviri created Kiai as a form of magic to emulate Dragons and to Emulate Dragon Shouts...its a form of magic...magic has many forms and styles and such.

[5]The Storm Voice, or "the Voice" was actually bestowed upon mortal by Kyne....Kyne was the one who gave Gormaith, Hakon, and Felldir the affinity to learn how to shout like Dragons do, then Kyne convinced Paarthunax to teach them.

Dragons have always been able to shout, [6]the Akaviri were jealous because they could not consume them and shout like them so they created a magic style(kiai) that imiated dragons as closely as they could...then they heard stories of men who could consume dragons and shout like dragons in a far away land and they came searching for him in the first era.

When they heard Reman shout "Fus Roh Dah" and "Yol Toor Shool" and "Zun, Haal, Viik" when they heard those words below out of his voice and things start happeneing...they knew they had found who they were looking for.....it was magic emulating dragons(kiai) but it was the REAL DEAL coming out of Remen's mouth....

1. The Akaviri are looking for Reman because the Dragonborn is the only one who can kill a dragon permanently.
2. This is the exact reason that it makes perfect sense that the Akaviri could learn to use the Thu'um, they evolved on the same continent as dragons. They slayed and enslaved many dragons, surely they could force some to teach them how to shout..
3. Once again, you are arguing against your own point
4. While I agree that this is possible (and is most likely what DKs do for their Fiery Breath spell) it is still highly likely that the Kiai is simply another form of the Thu'um
5. She had Paarthurnax teach them, meaning that it can be taught. If nords who've never met a dragon (like Ulfric and the Greybeards, as evidenced when Paarthurnax tells you you are the first to speak to him in over a hundred years) can learn to use the Voice, then I'm sure a race that has lived and fought with dragons for their entire existence would be able to figure it out.
6. This is never said nor implied anywhere, and yet you state it as fact.

Dragons were native to Akavir, it makes perfect sense that the other races would learn to utilize the same power that they did.

Tyrobag

Double post due to lag

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I'm very amused by this assumption that it would somehow be easier for the Tsaesci to make fake dragon magic than just learn the real thing from the dragons they've been fighting for centuries.

If we accept the basic premise that the Thu'um is difficult to learn, then, yeah, it probably makes a little sense to try to fake up an easy-to-learn version. Baby's-first-murder-screams, if you will.

Also, just a thought, but if you're fighting and trying to kill dragons, it would kinda make sense for them to not want to share. The reason the Nords had access to the Thu'um at all was because of Paarthunax (and possibly a few other defectors). Without that, you're left with, "um, excuse me Mister Murder Death Wing, can you please stop trying to kill me for a second and help me learn your language to better murder you and your kind?"

Tyrobag wrote: »

6. This is never said nor implied anywhere, and yet you state it as fact.

I'm relatively certain that #6 is from a Mr Rhexx video. I mean, I like his stuff, but there are copious errors. Actually, I'd need to check, but I think he's the one that's been seriously advocating that the DKs are using the Thu'um.

Tyrobag

starkerealm wrote: »

I'm relatively certain that #6 is from a Mr Rhexx video. I mean, I like his stuff, but there are copious errors. Actually, I'd need to check, but I think he's the one that's been seriously advocating that the DKs are using the Thu'um.

Which is why you should never trust youtube videos for learning lore. As far as I'm concerned there are only two trustworthy sources for lore: the games themselves and the UESP Wiki. Definitely not youtube videos. The only people who feel the need to make videos on it are people who need validation for their theories about lore that they cant find any actual evidence about. So they throw it out there and ignore all the people showing them evidence that they are wrong.

Koensol

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dragonknights are nout using the Th'uum or the Voice...they are using a form of Akaviri Magic to "emulate" Dragons.

Children of Sky is comparing A Shout to the Akaviri Kiai. Its "like" statement. Sorta like a compare and contrast, not that they are directly the same thing.

/thread. This is a typical example of a thread where the OP interprets information so that it fits his argument. @RinaldoGandolphi has basically said enough. OP, you can keep shuffling around all these details (even examples of gameplay mechanics from the st games for crying out loud...), but that doesn't make your opinion any more true. We get it, you like dragons and would love to be able to imagine your DK is using shouts. But please leave it at that, an imagination. Don't try to bend the lore to your fantasies.

notimetocare

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I'm very amused by this assumption that it would somehow be easier for the Tsaesci to make fake dragon magic than just learn the real thing from the dragons they've been fighting for centuries. It is not, after all, as though the dragons are trying to keep it secret—they're literally shouting the magic words necessary every time they use it, and using them in normal conversation too. And because they're altering reality with these magic words when they Shout, it would quickly become obvious which does what. Only imagine how easy a real life foreign language lesson would be if every time the teacher said 'escargots' snails fell out of her mouth!

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

It makes sense the Tsaesci would hear rumors of people who could do what they couldn't(consume dragons) in a far of land and go in search of them in hopes of either learning how to do it themselves, or to rever the one who could.

Rumors nothing; they were the ones who had the prophecy that went on Alduin's wall, recall. And what exactly do you think is stopping the Tsaesci from learning the dragon language? Because you yourself admit they don't need to be Dragonborn to do that.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Read that statement out loud....they are saying a Nord shout "Is like" the kiai of an akaviri swordsman, that sentence is not inferring they are the same thing.

I pointed this out specifically in the OP; they're using it interchangeably, implying they are the same thing, just by a different name. 'When the [Nord remember] leader lets it out in a kiai, the doors are blown in, and the axemen rush into the city.' Are you trying to imply that the ancient Nords were using a type of magic you claim is exclusive to the Akaviri?

starkerealm wrote: »

Because they're not. Yes. And you can try to pawn that off as a gameplay consideration. But, it's worth remembering that Skyrim did not. You know, the single player games where your character isn't even voiced (normally), and yet there are 20 separate audio sets for the Thu'um.

Yes, but Skyrim is a single player game, so you're never going to have someone following you around going 'YOL TOOR SHUL' 'YOL TOOR SHUL' 'YOL TOOR SHUL' to troll. MMOs have to be wary of that. Witness the elk mount. And it doesn't have to be an inherently annoying sound either. For example did you hear, some stranger saved King Cassamir's life?! Likewise having a Shout resource to go along with Magicka and Stamina but only for one class would be a waste of dev resources; can you imagine what a nightmare that would be to balance?

So naturally an MMO is not going to go into the same depth with the mechanics as Skyrim did.

starkerealm wrote: »

In setting, but still secondary, from non-Thu'um practitioners. In contrast, we have primary sources such as Paarthurnax and Arngeir to use as explanations for how this stuff functions. Now, of your choice between a random member of the Mage's Guild, who has no specific experience with dragons, and confirmed Thu'um practitioners, you need to make a judgement call to which one is the more credible source.

@starkerealm I said I'd respond to this here and I am.

If you have some primary source--Akaviri warriors who can clearly state, 'our magic has nothing to do with real dragon magic' or an interview with the Greybeards hidden away somewhere—by all means produce it. Maybe Arngeir had a line of dialog I missed, or there's a quest I may not have played. Or if you know of a lorebook I'm forgetting? Maybe an interview with the devs? I am happy to consider any solid lore sources I may have overlooked.

But unless you have those sources, don't expect me to disregard multiple in-game accounts just because they're written down. Several people have made it clear they don't like the idea for some reason, but not liking it isn't actually proof to the contrary.

starkerealm wrote: »

the ability to actually summon dragons by uttering their name (and yes, there are dragons active in this era, just not many)... but, they can belch fire and set their weapons on fire. That's kind of like, but not the same as, some of the shouts.

...now is a bad time to remind you that the Tsaesci brought dragon mounts, isn't it? (And minor nitpick: I will remind that even the Last Dragonborn did not summon Odahviing as such. Odahviing was only compelled to come insofar as he wanted to do so.)

Again, the dragon language is in fact a language and the fact that a literal army of people who have been fighting with and against its speakers, and have had thousands of years collective exposure to it as a result should know different vocabulary and do different things with it than a single individual who has been scraping words out of tombs for maybe a year should not surprise you. The fact that none of the first group is Dragonborn - and thus can't learn each Shout nearly instantly - is a perfectly viable reason to focus on passing on a small subset deemed by those teaching to be most useful. It happened to be a different subset than what the Last Dragonborn picked up in Skyrim.

Thu'um is about understanding the words, not just shouting them. It would be far easier to make their own magic

Tyrobag

Koensol wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dragonknights are nout using the Th'uum or the Voice...they are using a form of Akaviri Magic to "emulate" Dragons.

Children of Sky is comparing A Shout to the Akaviri Kiai. Its "like" statement. Sorta like a compare and contrast, not that they are directly the same thing.

/thread. This is a typical example of a thread where the OP interprets information so that it fits his argument. @RinaldoGandolphi has basically said enough. OP, you can keep shuffling around all these details (even examples of gameplay mechanics from the st games for crying out loud...), but that doesn't make your opinion any more true. We get it, you like dragons and would love to be able to imagine your DK is using shouts. But please leave it at that, an imagination. Don't try to bend the lore to your fantasies.

The issue is that Rinaldo is just as wrong, if not more so. No, DK magic is not using the Voice. Akaviri Kiai on the other hand is most certainly implied to be the same or similar power.

You can't agree with him and complain about someone trying to bend lore. I disagree with OP, but he at least isn't making too far of a stretch. Rinaldo had to make up 3 points with no backing to explain his theory, OP only had to fill in a gap.

starkerealm

Tyrobag wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dragonknights are nout using the Th'uum or the Voice...they are using a form of Akaviri Magic to "emulate" Dragons.

Children of Sky is comparing A Shout to the Akaviri Kiai. Its "like" statement. Sorta like a compare and contrast, not that they are directly the same thing.

/thread. This is a typical example of a thread where the OP interprets information so that it fits his argument. @RinaldoGandolphi has basically said enough. OP, you can keep shuffling around all these details (even examples of gameplay mechanics from the st games for crying out loud...), but that doesn't make your opinion any more true. We get it, you like dragons and would love to be able to imagine your DK is using shouts. But please leave it at that, an imagination. Don't try to bend the lore to your fantasies.

The issue is that Rinaldo is just as wrong, if not more so. No, DK magic is not using the Voice. Akaviri Kiai on the other hand is most certainly implied to be the same or similar power.

You can't agree with him and complain about someone trying to bend lore. I disagree with OP, but he at least isn't making too far of a stretch. Rinaldo had to make up 3 points with no backing to explain his theory, OP only had to fill in a gap.

The only similarity between the Thu'um and Kiai is that they have a verbal component. In fact, the only thing we have that connects these two is the line from Children of the Sky:

Anonymous wrote:

The power of a Nord can be articulated into a shout, like the kiai of an Akaviri swordsman.

Honestly, re-reading Children of the Sky, and comparing it to everything we know on the subject from later, I'd be inclined to think the author doesn't know what they're talking about.

RinaldoGandolphi

How am I wrong?

There is ZERO proof that Kiai is infact "The Voice". In fact there is more proof its not the Voice at all.

Exhibit 1: The Plaques on the 7,000 Steps leading to High Hrothgar

those plaques were put in place by Jurgen Windcaller, and the story carved on them told by Paarthunax to Jurgen to chronicle the history of the "TheWay of The Voice"

Lets read those plaques shall we?

Emblem I - Before the birth of men, the Dragons ruled all Mundus; Their word was the Voice, and they spoke only for True Needs; For the Voice could blot out the sky and flood the land
Emblem II - Men were born and spread over the face of Mundus; The Dragons presided over the crawling masses; Men were weak then, and had no Voice
Emblem III - The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old Times; Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices; But the Dragons only shouted them down and broke their hearts

As we can see here, the ONLY beings that could use the Voice were Dragons...Men, Mer, Akaviri, etc simply did not have the ability inborn or otherwise to even be able to understand the Dragon Language let alone be able to even hope to learn or use any words of power.

Then something changed:

Emblem IV - Kyne called on Paarthurnax, who pitied Man; Together they taught Men to use the Voice; Then Dragon War raged, Dragon against Tongue

This is further corroborated by Arngeir the Master of the Greybeards:

In mythic times, when mortalkind was in great need, the goddess Kynareth granted usthe ability to speak as dragons do. For most people, long years of training are required to learn even the simplest Shout. But for you, the dragon speech is in your blood, and you learn it almost without effort.

The Voice was a gift of the goddess Kynareth, at the dawn of time. She gave mortals the ability to speak as dragons do. Although this gift has often been misused, the only true use of the Voice is for the worship and glory of the gods. True mastery of the Voice can only be achieved when your inner spirit is in harmony with your outward actions. In the contemplation of the sky, Kynareth's domain, and the practice of the Voice, we strive to achieve this balance.

So as we can see here, prior to Kyne literally granting a "specific few" mortals the ability to "learn" how to use The Voice, no one but dragons could even understand the language let alone use it. Once Kyne done this, she convinced Paarthunax to teach these mortals how to use the gift that "she gave them".

Paathurnax corroborates this account:

"Here the ancient Tongues, the first mortal masters of the Voice, brought Alduin to battle and defeated him."

Then you will feel – know – Dragonrend, in the power of its first expression. You will see them… wuth fadonne… my friends – Hakon, Gormlaith, Felldir."

"The first mortals that I taught the Thu’um – the first Tongues. The leaders of the rebellion against Alduin. They were mighty, in their day. Even to attempt to defeat Alduin… sahrot hunne. The Nords have had many heroes since, but none greater."

So as we can see, Gormaith Golden Hilt, Feldir the Old, and Hakron One-Eye were the first mortals "On all of Mundas" to ever be able to use the Voice. Paarthunax has been alive since literally the beginning of time...he is 2nd born of Akatosh, only alduin and Akatosh himself are older then Paarthurnax. So stright from his mouth and what he told Jurgen to inscribe on the plaques leading up the 7,000 steps, no one could shout before Kyne blessed specific mortals to be able to use the Voice.

If you really look into it, you will find that The Greybeards, Ulfic Stromcloak, and pretty much all of the non-Dragonborns who could learn how to use the Voice are all blood relatives or descended from Gormlaith, Hakon, or Felldir....this is why Ulfric was accepted into the Way of the Voice. These were very large royal families, and its most certain his family is descended from previous ruling families of Windhelm and Skyrim dating back to the days of Hoag Merkiller, Wulfharth, and even farther back in those bloodlines.

Arngeir pretty much says as much

We study the Way of the Voice, according to the teachings of our founder, Jurgen Windcaller. Very few are permitted to study with us here at High Hrothgar. But in your case, Dragonborn, it is a privilege to guide you towards mastery of your Voice.

the reason "very few" are permitted is because very few are actually born with the intrinsic ability to learn. It would be safe to say that Ulfirc is most likely a distant relative of either Hakon, Felldir, or Gormlaith which is why he was born with a natural ability to learn.Tthe Greybeards do some tests on people who want to study there to see if they do have the ability to learn. This is why very few are permitted.

The Akaviri were never blessed by Kyne to have the ability to Shout. This is why when they heard Reman actually "shout" like a Dragon, a "Real shout" and not magic emulating dragons like Kiai they stopped what they were doing and bowed to him. He was the who they were looking for, a man who not only could shout like a real dragon, but could consume them to, he was actually "dragon like" and not an imitation like the Akaviri had to.

Its important to understand one thing, Kiai is NOT necessarily weaker then "The Voice". Kiai is a form of magic, Magic draws on Magnus, the Power of Aetherious, etc its powerful in its own right. Remember what Savos Aren tells you:

Magic is a true power, not something to be shunned by commoners or treated as an amusing diversion by politicians. It shapes worlds, creates and destroys life... It deserves proper respect and study.


Magic is by no means weaker then the Voice, on the contrary in some cases its stronger.

The Akaviri were just obsessed with Dragons because they couldn't consume them and take on their charactersitcs like they could everything else, so they chose to find one who could and do everything they could to help them....kinda like how groupies chase around rock bands, etc.

Sorry for the long post, but i just wanted to clarify my previous statements.

Tyrobag

To save myself time, I'm just going to put in a strikeout through each time you make a huge assumption with no actual proof.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

How am I wrong?

There is ZERO proof that Kiai is infact "The Voice". In fact there is more proof its not the Voice at all.

Exhibit 1: The Plaques on the 7,000 Steps leading to High Hrothgar

those plaques were put in place by Jurgen Windcaller, and the story carved on them told by Paarthunax to Jurgen to chronicle the history of the "TheWay of The Voice"

Lets read those plaques shall we?

Emblem I - Before the birth of men, the Dragons ruled all Mundus; Their word was the Voice, and they spoke only for True Needs; For the Voice could blot out the sky and flood the land
Emblem II - Men were born and spread over the face of Mundus; The Dragons presided over the crawling masses; Men were weak then, and had no Voice
Emblem III - The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old Times; Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices; But the Dragons only shouted them down and broke their hearts

As we can see here, the ONLY beings that could use the Voice were Dragons...Men, Mer, Akaviri, etc simply did not have the ability inborn or otherwise to even be able to understand the Dragon Language let alone be able to even hope to learn or use any words of power.

Then something changed:

Emblem IV - Kyne called on Paarthurnax, who pitied Man; Together they taught Men to use the Voice; Then Dragon War raged, Dragon against Tongue

This is further corroborated by Arngeir the Master of the Greybeards:

In mythic times, when mortalkind was in great need, the goddess Kynareth granted usthe ability to speak as dragons do. For most people, long years of training are required to learn even the simplest Shout. But for you, the dragon speech is in your blood, and you learn it almost without effort.

The Voice was a gift of the goddess Kynareth, at the dawn of time. She gave mortals the ability to speak as dragons do. Although this gift has often been misused, the only true use of the Voice is for the worship and glory of the gods. True mastery of the Voice can only be achieved when your inner spirit is in harmony with your outward actions. In the contemplation of the sky, Kynareth's domain, and the practice of the Voice, we strive to achieve this balance.

So as we can see here, prior to Kyne literally granting a "specific few" mortals the ability to "learn" how to use The Voice, no one but dragons could even understand the language let alone use it. Once Kyne done this, she convinced Paarthunax to teach these mortals how to use the gift that "she gave them".

Paathurnax corroborates this account:

"Here the ancient Tongues, the first mortal masters of the Voice, brought Alduin to battle and defeated him."

Then you will feel – know – Dragonrend, in the power of its first expression. You will see them… wuth fadonne… my friends – Hakon, Gormlaith, Felldir."

"The first mortals that I taught the Thu’um – the first Tongues. The leaders of the rebellion against Alduin. They were mighty, in their day. Even to attempt to defeat Alduin… sahrot hunne. The Nords have had many heroes since, but none greater."

So as we can see, Gormaith Golden Hilt, Feldir the Old, and Hakron One-Eye were the first mortals "On all of Mundas" to ever be able to use the Voice. Paarthunax has been alive since literally the beginning of time...he is 2nd born of Akatosh, only alduin and Akatosh himself are older then Paarthurnax. So stright from his mouth and what he told Jurgen to inscribe on the plaques leading up the 7,000 steps, no one could shout before Kyne blessed specific mortals to be able to use the Voice.

If you really look into it, you will find that The Greybeards, Ulfic Stromcloak, and pretty much all of the non-Dragonborns who could learn how to use the Voice are all blood relatives or descended from Gormlaith, Hakon, or Felldir....this is why Ulfric was accepted into the Way of the Voice. These were very large royal families, and its most certain his family is descended from previous ruling families of Windhelm and Skyrim dating back to the days of Hoag Merkiller, Wulfharth, and even farther back in those bloodlines.

Arngeir pretty much says as much

We study the Way of the Voice, according to the teachings of our founder, Jurgen Windcaller. Very few are permitted to study with us here at High Hrothgar. But in your case, Dragonborn, it is a privilege to guide you towards mastery of your Voice.

the reason "very few" are permitted is because very few are actually born with the intrinsic ability to learn. It would be safe to say that Ulfirc is most likely a distant relative of either Hakon, Felldir, or Gormlaith which is why he was born with a natural ability to learn.Tthe Greybeards do some tests on people who want to study there to see if they do have the ability to learn. This is why very few are permitted.

The Akaviri were never blessed by Kyne to have the ability to Shout. This is why when they heard Reman actually "shout" like a Dragon, a "Real shout" and not magic emulating dragons like Kiai they stopped what they were doing and bowed to him. He was the who they were looking for, a man who not only could shout like a real dragon, but could consume them to, he was actually "dragon like" and not an imitation like the Akaviri had to.

Its important to understand one thing, Kiai is NOT necessarily weaker then "The Voice". Kiai is a form of magic, Magic draws on Magnus, the Power of Aetherious, etc its powerful in its own right. Remember what Savos Aren tells you:

Magic is a true power, not something to be shunned by commoners or treated as an amusing diversion by politicians. It shapes worlds, creates and destroys life... It deserves proper respect and study.


Magic is by no means weaker then the Voice, on the contrary in some cases its stronger.

The Akaviri were just obsessed with Dragons because they couldn't consume them and take on their charactersitcs like they could everything else, so they chose to find one who could and do everything they could to help them....kinda like how groupies chase around rock bands, etc.

Sorry for the long post, but i just wanted to clarify my previous statements.

And how many religions do you see with realistic & truthful explanations of things. All religions want to make themselves the center of everything. So of course the Nords would insist that they were the only ones who knew the voice. Additionally, Paarthurnax says they are the first mortals He has taught, which does not mean that they are the only mortals ever to learn. Plus we know that non-nords can learn how to use the thu'um (ex: The Ebony Warrior).

I'm not sure what kind of crap videos you've been watching, or if you're just a c0da fan or something, but every other word you say that isn't a quote is just a huge stretch away from lore.

RinaldoGandolphi

@Tyrobag

Its you thats making huge assumptions

Jurgen Windcaller and his 17 disciples built High Hrothger, the 7,000 steps, and the plaques detailing the history of the Voice as handed down by Paathurnax(Paarthurnax joins The Way of the Voice later on) This is verified numerous times in game and via dialogue. Windcaller built High Hrothgar, and depending on how long Windcaller lived he put up the tablets and 7,000 steps too, and if he didn't ,later later generations of Greybeards did.

Emblem VII – The Tongues at Red Mountain went away humbled; Jurgen Windcaller began His Seven Year Meditation; To understand how Strong Voices could fail
Emblem VIII – Jurgen Windcaller chose silence and returned; The 17 disputants could not shout Him down; Jurgen the Calm built His home on the Throat of the World

Why do you think Arngeir gets so angry that The Blades want to kill Paarthurnaax? Pay attention to what Arngeir says about how Paarthurnaax "knowledge" is too important and simply could never be replaced. Paarthurnaax is giving the account of Emblems 1-5 because he is the only one(besides Miirak) who was alive back then then that would know what had happened.

And how many religions do you see with realistic & truthful explanations of things. All religions want to make themselves the center of everything. So of course the Nords would insist that they were the only ones who knew the voice

The Way of the Voice isn't a religion its a philosophy.

Besides, Paarthurnaax was alive back during even before the Dragon War and gives a first hand account of those events...again Paarthrunaax is the 2nd born of Akatosh the only Dragon older then him is Alduin....consider the source...its not a religion...its not even close to a religion.

Additionally, Paarthurnax says they are the first mortals He has taught, which does not mean that they are the only mortals ever to learn.

I never said they were the only mortals to learn. I said BEFORE Kyne gifted mortals the ability to shout, NO MORTAL could Shout like dragons...their brains could NOT comprehend the meaning of the words of power, and this was put into place intentionally by the Gods because The Voice could blot out the sky and flood the land, The Voice was deemed too powerful for Mortals to be allowed to understand it.

However, when Alduin shirked on his duty(devouring the world every kalpa) and instead wanted to rule the world, the Gods had to step in and stop him...there 1st attempt was the birth of the birth of the 1st Dragonborn(Miirak) which of course didn't work out as Miirak refused to help deal with Alduin(He verifies this in-game) so Kyne fell upon her backup plan of gifting mortals the ability to learn(understand) the World of Power, and then convinced Paarthurnaax to teach them.

Only a small group of people have the ability to learn(born with it)...not every Nord has the affinity to learn, if they did literally every Nord would be learning it. The Greybeards only permit a select few to learn with them(they have to pass tests showing they have affinity to learn, and not everyone has it, just like not everyone can learn how to be a brain surgeon, not all people are born equally intelligent)

Plus we know that non-nords can learn how to use the thu'um (ex: The Ebony Warrior)

Of course! because The Ebony Warrior is an aspect of Ebonarm. Just like The Last Dragonborn is an aspect of Talos.(As confirmed by The Grerybeards and the spirit of Talos friend at Old Hrlodran) Ebonarm used to be The God of War before Talos ascended and super seceded him. Ebonarm still exists, he is just the lesser personality of the God of War, Talos is now the dominant personality. For whatever reason, Ebonarm decided to test The Last Dragonborn in the events of Skyrim.

An aspect won't be an exact copy....The Ebony Warrior doesn't have a flowing gold beard, a missing hand with an Ebony Blade in its place, or a steed named War Master. That doesn't make him any less an aspect. Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox were all aspects of Lorhkan, all of them were different from one another, didn't have each others traits, trademarks, scars, etc completely yet they were all aspects of the same deity. Thats what The Ebony Warrior is, I thought Bethesda made that pretty clear considering the Ebony Warrior is a Redguard who wants to go to Sovengarde instead of the Far Shores(When Ebonarm is in fact a Yokudan/Redguard deity and God of War) I think Bethesda explained that Ebonarm is now a lesser personality of Talos pretty well, but who am I?......

I'm not sure what kind of crap videos you've been watching, or if you're just a c0da fan or something, but every other word you say that isn't a quote is just a huge stretch away from lore.

I haven't been watching any videos, I have simply played every TES game since Arena came out in 1994.....at least I can have a debate without resorting to insults and other nonsense such as "crap videos" when someone doesn't agree with you.

Akaviri Kiai is simply a different form magic. The Voice is just projecting ones Vital essence and augmenting it with Words of Power....since Dragonknights are obviously not bellowing out "Yol Toor Shul" when breathing fire, its obvious they are not using The Voice.

Saying Kiai is the Voice actually cheapens the Akaviri and actually cheapens what Kiai actually is. In my opinion, Kiai is actually what the Akaviri use to draw on their spirit to augment the world around them. The fact they need no words of power to do this means Kiai is a unique and powerful form of magic and technique that they could actually end up building a future game around...as there is no other style like it.

The Redguards used to have spirit swords.....I think Kiai is the Akaviri version of that, but different of course....as its clear they can do much more with it then simply create a spiritual sword.....they certainly don't need words of power to use it....leave Kiai stand alone like it needs to, its something unique to the Akaviri that will make a great future story.

Tyrobag

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Tyrobag

Its you thats making huge assumptions

Jurgen Windcaller and his 17 disciples built High Hrothger, the 7,000 steps, and the plaques detailing the history of the Voice as handed down by Paathurnax(Paarthurnax joins The Way of the Voice later on) This is verified numerous times in game and via dialogue. Windcaller built High Hrothgar, and depending on how long Windcaller lived he put up the tablets and 7,000 steps too, and if he didn't ,later later generations of Greybeards did.

Emblem VII – The Tongues at Red Mountain went away humbled; Jurgen Windcaller began His Seven Year Meditation; To understand how Strong Voices could fail
Emblem VIII – Jurgen Windcaller chose silence and returned; The 17 disputants could not shout Him down; Jurgen the Calm built His home on the Throat of the World

Why do you think Arngeir gets so angry that The Blades want to kill Paarthurnaax? Pay attention to what Arngeir says about how Paarthurnaax "knowledge" is too important and simply could never be replaced. Paarthurnaax is giving the account of Emblems 1-5 because he is the only one(besides Miirak) who was alive back then then that would know what had happened.

And how many religions do you see with realistic & truthful explanations of things. All religions want to make themselves the center of everything. So of course the Nords would insist that they were the only ones who knew the voice

The Way of the Voice isn't a religion its a philosophy.

Besides, Paarthurnaax was alive back during even before the Dragon War and gives a first hand account of those events...again Paarthrunaax is the 2nd born of Akatosh the only Dragon older then him is Alduin....consider the source...its not a religion...its not even close to a religion.

Additionally, Paarthurnax says they are the first mortals He has taught, which does not mean that they are the only mortals ever to learn.

I never said they were the only mortals to learn. I said BEFORE Kyne gifted mortals the ability to shout, NO MORTAL could Shout like dragons...their brains could NOT comprehend the meaning of the words of power, and this was put into place intentionally by the Gods because The Voice could blot out the sky and flood the land, The Voice was deemed too powerful for Mortals to be allowed to understand it.

However, when Alduin shirked on his duty(devouring the world every kalpa) and instead wanted to rule the world, the Gods had to step in and stop him...there 1st attempt was the birth of the birth of the 1st Dragonborn(Miirak) which of course didn't work out as Miirak refused to help deal with Alduin(He verifies this in-game) so Kyne fell upon her backup plan of gifting mortals the ability to learn(understand) the World of Power, and then convinced Paarthurnaax to teach them.

Only a small group of people have the ability to learn(born with it)...not every Nord has the affinity to learn, if they did literally every Nord would be learning it. The Greybeards only permit a select few to learn with them(they have to pass tests showing they have affinity to learn, and not everyone has it, just like not everyone can learn how to be a brain surgeon, not all people are born equally intelligent)

Plus we know that non-nords can learn how to use the thu'um (ex: The Ebony Warrior)

Of course! because The Ebony Warrior is an aspect of Ebonarm. Just like The Last Dragonborn is an aspect of Talos.(As confirmed by The Grerybeards and the spirit of Talos friend at Old Hrlodran) Ebonarm used to be The God of War before Talos ascended and super seceded him. Ebonarm still exists, he is just the lesser personality of the God of War, Talos is now the dominant personality. For whatever reason, Ebonarm decided to test The Last Dragonborn in the events of Skyrim.

An aspect won't be an exact copy....The Ebony Warrior doesn't have a flowing gold beard, a missing hand with an Ebony Blade in its place, or a steed named War Master. That doesn't make him any less an aspect. Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox were all aspects of Lorhkan, all of them were different from one another, didn't have each others traits, trademarks, scars, etc completely yet they were all aspects of the same deity. Thats what The Ebony Warrior is, I thought Bethesda made that pretty clear considering the Ebony Warrior is a Redguard who wants to go to Sovengarde instead of the Far Shores(When Ebonarm is in fact a Yokudan/Redguard deity and God of War) I think Bethesda explained that Ebonarm is now a lesser personality of Talos pretty well, but who am I?......

I'm not sure what kind of crap videos you've been watching, or if you're just a c0da fan or something, but every other word you say that isn't a quote is just a huge stretch away from lore.

I haven't been watching any videos, I have simply played every TES game since Arena came out in 1994.....at least I can have a debate without resorting to insults and other nonsense such as "crap videos" when someone doesn't agree with you.

Akaviri Kiai is simply a different form magic. The Voice is just projecting ones Vital essence and augmenting it with Words of Power....since Dragonknights are obviously not bellowing out "Yol Toor Shul" when breathing fire, its obvious they are not using The Voice.

Saying Kiai is the Voice actually cheapens the Akaviri and actually cheapens what Kiai actually is. In my opinion, Kiai is actually what the Akaviri use to draw on their spirit to augment the world around them. The fact they need no words of power to do this means Kiai is a unique and powerful form of magic and technique that they could actually end up building a future game around...as there is no other style like it.

The Redguards used to have spirit swords.....I think Kiai is the Akaviri version of that, but different of course....as its clear they can do much more with it then simply create a spiritual sword.....they certainly don't need words of power to use it....leave Kiai stand alone like it needs to, its something unique to the Akaviri that will make a great future story.

This post is just a repetition of your other incorrect arguments, with a few more unproven theories thrown in. I'm too tired to bother repeating everything that you're wrong about. You can internally believe what you want, but please stop trying to mislead others.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I'm going to chime in with a couple of points:

• Pretending, for the sake of argument, Kynareth did have to flip a metaphysical switch so men could Shout and it wasn't merely a matter of teaching them, not all of the Tsaesci were human and mortal...saying a few Nords were the first mortals to Shout does not preclude some immortal vampires from picking it up separately.
• Ignoring that, or assuming that was the first instance of any non-dovah learning to Shout, ever: the Dragon Wars were in the late Merethic Era. The Tsaesci invasion took place in 2703 of the First Era. That's over 2700 years for the Tsaesci to pick up the skill.

They may have even been involved in the Dragon War; there's a purple Legerdemain item that mentions Vuljotnaak, who was supposed to have been killed the first time during that period:

This ancient silver mask is of Akaviri design. It bears the likeness of a hissing serpent devouring the dragon Vuljotnaak.

starkerealm

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Tyrobag

Its you thats making huge assumptions

"Now, let me make some even bigger assumptions that are even less grounded in available information."

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Jurgen Windcaller and his 17 disciples built High Hrothger, the 7,000 steps, and the plaques detailing the history of the Voice as handed down by Paathurnax(Paarthurnax joins The Way of the Voice later on) This is verified numerous times in game and via dialogue. Windcaller built High Hrothgar, and depending on how long Windcaller lived he put up the tablets and 7,000 steps too, and if he didn't ,later later generations of Greybeards did.

Emblem VII – The Tongues at Red Mountain went away humbled; Jurgen Windcaller began His Seven Year Meditation; To understand how Strong Voices could fail
Emblem VIII – Jurgen Windcaller chose silence and returned; The 17 disputants could not shout Him down; Jurgen the Calm built His home on the Throat of the World

We know he made his home there. It's a little bit of a stretch to assume that he personally assembled each of the steps, it is possible. It's also a little bit of a stretch to assume that, humbled by his previous transgressions he then slapped up monuments that said, "hey guys, look how awesome I was."

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Why do you think Arngeir gets so angry that The Blades want to kill Paarthurnaax?

Because the Greybeards have a fetishistic approach to dragons. It's not even just Paarthurnax, Arngeir gets irate anytime the Blades come up at all. He's not even particularly thrilled about the idea of killing Alduin, and flat out does not want the Dragonrend shout recovered.

Beyond that he doesn't want to see his buddy Paarthurnax getting waxed. He's willing to stomach you killing other Dragons frolicking around the countryside, burning down villages, barely, but waxing Paarthurnax is a bridge too far for him.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Pay attention to what Arngeir says about how Paarthurnaax "knowledge" is too important and simply could never be replaced. Paarthurnaax is giving the account of Emblems 1-5 because he is the only one(besides Miirak) who was alive back then then that would know what had happened.

Well, remember, Paarthurnax is the one who taught Arngeir, and the other Greybeards. So, you know, there's that. That would be irreplaceable knowledge.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

And how many religions do you see with realistic & truthful explanations of things. All religions want to make themselves the center of everything. So of course the Nords would insist that they were the only ones who knew the voice

The Way of the Voice isn't a religion its a philosophy.

Yes and no. It's not a religion in the traditional sense, with worshipers, but hold on for a second, and see what you wrote next...

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Besides, Paarthurnaax was alive back during even before the Dragon War and gives a first hand account of those events...again Paarthrunaax is the 2nd born of Akatosh the only Dragon older then him is Alduin....consider the source...its not a religion...its not even close to a religion.

This? This is religion, not philosophy.

Religion is a set of beliefs or worldview that seeks to tell the participant, "this is who you are, this is how you belong in this world." Things like creation myths are a very important part of this. For a philosophical path, who you are doesn't need to be defined. This kind of anchoring information isn't needed. In many cases it's actively detrimental. You need to come to these answers on your own, not as the result of someone spoon feeding you enlightenment.

When you get into things like a creation myth, that's the domain of religion. Even if it's taken to be strictly literal, we are talking about the first two offspring of one of the major gods of Tamriel's dominant religion.

I'm actually going to skip down to the next thing that catches my attention.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Plus we know that non-nords can learn how to use the thu'um (ex: The Ebony Warrior)

Of course! because The Ebony Warrior is an aspect of Ebonarm. Just like The Last Dragonborn is an aspect of Talos.(As confirmed by The Grerybeards and the spirit of Talos friend at Old Hrlodran) Ebonarm used to be The God of War before Talos ascended and super seceded him. Ebonarm still exists, he is just the lesser personality of the God of War, Talos is now the dominant personality. For whatever reason, Ebonarm decided to test The Last Dragonborn in the events of Skyrim.

I actually like this theory. Both of them in fact. And I've suggested a slightly more extreme version of the latter, in the past. But I wouldn't state them as fact.

Ebonarm is a really interesting little footnote on the side of the setting. As you said, he's a god of war from the early iterations of the setting. It's not quite accurate to say he was replaced by Talos. He wasn't another divine in the same space as the Eight/Nine. If it's accurate, this is the first time Ebonarm has even been acknowledged since 1997. Which isn't out of character for Skyrim as a whole. I legitimately forgot that the Soul Carin was from Battlespire.

It's also probably worth remembering that Ebonarm himself is unconfirmed; he exists mostly as a legend in TES2, not as an active presence. Since then he has been expunged from the setting. There are no further direct references to him after Daggerfall. This includes ESO, which includes an edited version of a book that did mention him in Daggerfall, but has had his name removed.

The result is that Ebonarm is an interesting character, but his existence is dubious. The official stance on the King Edward novels is that they're "in-setting historical fiction." And, it's distinctly possible that we're supposed to interpret Ebonarm as fictional character within the context of Tamriel.

The theory that the Ebony Warrior is Ebonarm fits, kinda, with the available information, but it's not something I'd call confirmed.

Similarly, the theory that The Last Dragonborn is in fact a reincarnation of Tiber Septum is compelling stuff, but the actual basis for this interpretation is extremely shaky. It mostly comes down to a single ghost, out in The Reach, who keeps calling you Hjalti. This assumes that he's not responding to the player's dragonborn status, and actually recognizes the LDB's soul, or identity.

Again, I mean, I like it, I've espoused it before, it makes Skryim a lot more interesting, but it's a long way from confirmed.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I think Bethesda explained that Ebonarm is now a lesser personality of Talos pretty well, but who am I?......

Not that I've seen. Aside from some random details they seem pretty eager to bury the King Edward material completely.

To be clear, that book, and a lot of the books from Daggerfall were written by beta testers, not professional writers. Which is part of why stuff that deviates significantly from the setting's cosmology sneaks in. This includes a few gods that don't really exist, and, at times, bizarre reinterpretations of how some parts of the setting are presented.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I'm not sure what kind of crap videos you've been watching, or if you're just a c0da fan or something, but every other word you say that isn't a quote is just a huge stretch away from lore.

I haven't been watching any videos, I have simply played every TES game since Arena came out in 1994.....at least I can have a debate without resorting to insults and other nonsense such as "crap videos" when someone doesn't agree with you.

That was, I think, WhiteCoat running off (what appears to be) Mr Rexx's videos. He's a mixed bag. I wouldn't call him crap, but he does make some serious logical leaps, including stating that The Ebony Warrior is Ebonarm without any reservations.

He may also be the reason I could have sworn that Werecrocodiles were Argonian only. I can't find that bit in any official text.

Saddly, the lore videos on YouTube for ESO are a far cry from something like the Souls's community's lore.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Akaviri Kiai is simply a different form magic. The Voice is just projecting ones Vital essence and augmenting it with Words of Power....since Dragonknights are obviously not bellowing out "Yol Toor Shul" when breathing fire, its obvious they are not using The Voice.

Saying Kiai is the Voice actually cheapens the Akaviri and actually cheapens what Kiai actually is. In my opinion, Kiai is actually what the Akaviri use to draw on their spirit to augment the world around them. The fact they need no words of power to do this means Kiai is a unique and powerful form of magic and technique that they could actually end up building a future game around...as there is no other style like it.

The Redguards used to have spirit swords.....I think Kiai is the Akaviri version of that, but different of course....as its clear they can do much more with it then simply create a spiritual sword.....they certainly don't need words of power to use it....leave Kiai stand alone like it needs to, its something unique to the Akaviri that will make a great future story.

It also sells the idea that the Akaviri really are an alien culture, and not just fantasy Japan. I'm honestly not even inclined to assume the Yokudan spirit blades are the same. Similar concepts, maybe, but not their expression of Kiai.

ESO is kind of weird and interesting in this respect. The later games stick the player in the mode of someone who has access to one form of magic. The spellschool approach. But, the lore makes it emminently apparent there are other kinds of magic out there. ESO is the first time we've really been offered the opportunity to play as characters who use different forms of magic via the various classes.

Solariken

WTB Thu'um skill line in ESO!

Edit: They could basically be very low-cost ultimates (to prevent spamming and keep them feeling awesome)

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

That was, I think, WhiteCoat running off (what appears to be) Mr Rexx's videos.

@starkerealm Sorry starke, but I have to call you out here. I haven't seen Mr. Rexx's videos, and thus couldn't use them as a source if I wanted to. You'll note I don't link them as a reference anywhere? And never have? You can go through my posting history to confirm that if you like. So please stop making that assumption.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

That was, I think, WhiteCoat running off (what appears to be) Mr Rexx's videos.

@starkerealm Sorry starke, but I have to call you out here. I haven't seen Mr. Rexx's videos, and thus couldn't use them as a source if I wanted to. You'll note I don't link them as a reference anywhere? And never have? You can go through my posting history to confirm that if you like. So please stop making that assumption.

In point of fact, yes, I have been conspicuously aware that you haven't cited any sources to support your claims.

The Mr Rexx videos was a guess, because he's made some claims over the years that sound plausible, but aren't quite sourced properly. When he's on, he can make some pretty interesting observations. When he's off, we get stuff like the Werecrocodile being Argonian only.

notimetocare

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I'm going to chime in with a couple of points:

• Pretending, for the sake of argument, Kynareth did have to flip a metaphysical switch so men could Shout and it wasn't merely a matter of teaching them, not all of the Tsaesci were human and mortal...saying a few Nords were the first mortals to Shout does not preclude some immortal vampires from picking it up separately.

Kind of does... Since that is what happens, and that non-dragon without that were incapable, and that they were on separate continents (and completely different creatures). You want DKs to use Thuum and will twist any lore to make it so. Bias is not lore

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

In point of fact, yes, I have been conspicuously aware that you haven't cited any sources to support your claims.

Are you on a browser that doesn't show links or quotes, or are you talking about your own posts?

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In point of fact, yes, I have been conspicuously aware that you haven't cited any sources to support your claims.

Are you on a browser that doesn't show links or quotes, or are you talking about your own posts?

Emphasis on "support." I get what you want, but the best you've come away with is, at best, a serious misreading, and using a simile by someone who, as I said, it's fairly clear didn't know what they were talking about, as established fact, and then disregarding every problem with your theory as a trope.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

starkerealm wrote: »

Emphasis on "support." I get what you want, but the best you've come away with is, at best, a serious misreading, and using a simile by someone who, as I said, it's fairly clear didn't know what they were talking about, as established fact, and then disregarding every problem with your theory as a trope.

So in other words, despite your complaints about my sources you don't actually have any lore references, primary, secondary or otherwise, of your own to disprove it. Got it. Feel free to chime back in if and when you dig something up, because I repeat: your personal dislike of the theory is not actually evidence in and of itself. You need to actually cite something if you want to prove anything to me.

starkerealm

Well, here's a simple one for you, there's an obscure title in the franchise called "Elder Scrolls: Online," in it, the Dragon Knights use their abilities, but they don't actually use the thu'um. Instead they just kind of generically roar/cry out in anguish, whenever they use their abilities.

I think someone may have mentioned it to you before.

notimetocare

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Emphasis on "support." I get what you want, but the best you've come away with is, at best, a serious misreading, and using a simile by someone who, as I said, it's fairly clear didn't know what they were talking about, as established fact, and then disregarding every problem with your theory as a trope.

So in other words, despite your complaints about my sources you don't actually have any lore references, primary, secondary or otherwise, of your own to disprove it. Got it. Feel free to chime back in if and when you dig something up, because I repeat: your personal dislike of the theory is not actually evidence in and of itself. You need to actually cite something if you want to prove anything to me.

It is not on someone to disprove your point but on you to prove it. Picking apart your sources is how you are disproven.

starkerealm

notimetocare wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Emphasis on "support." I get what you want, but the best you've come away with is, at best, a serious misreading, and using a simile by someone who, as I said, it's fairly clear didn't know what they were talking about, as established fact, and then disregarding every problem with your theory as a trope.

So in other words, despite your complaints about my sources you don't actually have any lore references, primary, secondary or otherwise, of your own to disprove it. Got it. Feel free to chime back in if and when you dig something up, because I repeat: your personal dislike of the theory is not actually evidence in and of itself. You need to actually cite something if you want to prove anything to me.

It is not on someone to disprove your point but on you to prove it. Picking apart your sources is how you are disproven.

It's also how you prove your point in the first place. Anyone can go out there and say whatever they want. Being able to actually demonstrate the point in the first place is the initial, necessary, step. Without that, all you've got is an opinion.

WhiteCoat, you're struggling to get to the point of proving your own position. What you've got is a lot of, "I wish it were so," with very selective, misreadings, of texts trying to say, "no, really, it's this way."

BrianDavion

the whole "DKs use dragon magic" bit is something DKs claim, but many mages simply dismiss them as just being desruction mages. pretty sure if they where using the Thu'um they'd not be dismissed so easily