Hypothesize the Reality behind Nirn and the Mundus | Continued |

ArchMikem

One of my Lore topics I had made in the past was about the Realities and Explanations behind the existence of Nirn, the Mundus, Oblivion, and Aetherius, and what everyone thought it really was. You can find the original topic right here, but I thought there can be a copy of it in the now official Lore subforum.

The original OP;

The Basics of what we know. Nirn is a life sustaining world, similar to a planet. It's nearly identical to our Earth, land, oceans, a sky, breathable air, weather, climates etc. Nirn (perceived from the Mortal eyes on the ground) has two moons that appear to orbit Nirn, Masser and Secunda. A Planet with Moons, okay. The night sky has stars in all directions, and the day sky has the sun, Magnus, which Nirn appears to be orbiting. So, to recap, and to describe it in our real world terms, Nirn is a habitable planet with two moons orbiting it's parent star Magnus. Now onto the more fantastical parts.

The realms of Oblivion are separate from the Mundus, you can't get to one by conventional means, ie. you can't just walk there. You can however get there by means of Portal and other forms of "Rifts". What the Canon explains is these realms are planes of existence, both there yet not there, all forms of fancy mind boggling stuff. But, my personal theory regarding the Realms of Oblivion. They're not planes separate from Nirn, but they ARE, Nirn. The Realms of Oblivion are Dimensions, different versions of Nirn itself. Inter-Dimensional travel is a common SciFi trope, but it's still the least bit plausible to explain, say, why there are intelligent humanoid creatures (The Dremora, Xivkyn, Xivilai, Dark Seducers, Golden Saints). These are the Races that inhabit the other "Nirns" instead of the Races we know of.

And then there's the Divines. The Aedra, the Daedra. We've been told of this "Cosmic Game" that's being played, this grand scheme between the Princes and that Nirn is firmly within the cross-hairs. What these Princes, the Divines, were just creatures from other Dimensions that literally were just playing a game with us? One giant charade. I want to quote something from Men in Black. "A person is smart, people are dumb, panicky, dangerous Animals.". The Mortals of Nirn are a Medieval people who's greatest common technological achievement are the levers that open doors somewhere in a Dwemer Ruin. We know that Science is a prevalent force in the Universe, and any kind of Science is considered Magic by people that don't fully understand it. What if these Daedra are using a Science that the Mortals of Nirn just can't even hope to comprehend, so it's written off as more Magic? I'm not trying to write of Magic as a whole however, there can definitely be forces of Nature that isn't available in our real world.

jlmurra2

I very much enjoy Elder Scrolls lore. It reminds me of Gnosticism, which it seems to be heavily influenced by.

The current existence being a dream of a Godhead explains the perceived individual beings. I suppose all would have to be apertures of Anu since they cannot be truly separate. Only Padamoy/Sithis could be then thought of as "other", but of course that is the void, so nothing.

ArchMikem

jlmurra2 wrote: »

I very much enjoy Elder Scrolls lore. It reminds me of Gnosticism, which it seems to be heavily influenced by.

The current existence being a dream of a Godhead explains the perceived individual beings.

Ugh the Godhead theory makes me feel so bad for putting so much thought and attachment into my characters when all they are is just figments of a dream.

jlmurra2

ArchMikem wrote: »

jlmurra2 wrote: »

I very much enjoy Elder Scrolls lore. It reminds me of Gnosticism, which it seems to be heavily influenced by.

The current existence being a dream of a Godhead explains the perceived individual beings.

Ugh the Godhead theory makes me feel so bad for putting so much thought and attachment into my characters when all they are is just figments of a dream.

As lorkhan's heart stated "for one was made to satisfy the other." Since we understand "other" we understand "self" though contrast, and boundary, as Akatosh/Auri-El made possible for the Et'Ada to know "self", or at least an illusion of "self", and "other" though an conception of liner time.

So then mortals are able to assign values such as good, and bad to things such as Daedra, and Aedra, but when these beings are asked in games about such concepts, they often dismiss them as a mortal belief, and a misunderstanding of the current creation. So if bad can be conceived then good can be as well, though they are probably the same thing. So your characters, or anything else are not good, or bad/evil they just are. I hope you feel good about them though.

Anyway we all create our characters in Elder Scrolls games, so they are sort of figments of our imaginations, with established boundaries of course, some by the games limitations, some by ourselves. I mean our characters are only as real as we imagine them to be.

crashen17b14_ESO

Unpopular opinion time! I hate Kirkbride and I think he actually did a disservice to the elder scrolls series with his C0DA and Amaranth, Godhead and Dream writings. He completely removed all the mystery from the game by indulging in philosophical ramblings in an attempt to explain the changes between games.

When everything is a dream, nothing really matters. Thats how I see it at least. Its all one big dragonbreak.

I take solace in the knowledge that, according to C0DA there is no canon because everything is canon. So in MY C0DA there is no C0DA and what you see is what you get. Or the Dreaming Godhead is Nate/Nora, cryosleeping in Vault 111.

Tyrobag

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Unpopular opinion time! I hate Kirkbride and I think he actually did a disservice to the elder scrolls series with his C0DA and Amaranth, Godhead and Dream writings. He completely removed all the mystery from the game by indulging in philosophical ramblings in an attempt to explain the changes between games.

When everything is a dream, nothing really matters. Thats how I see it at least. Its all one big dragonbreak.

I take solace in the knowledge that, according to C0DA there is no canon because everything is canon. So in MY C0DA there is no C0DA and what you see is what you get. Or the Dreaming Godhead is Nate/Nora, cryosleeping in Vault 111.

Everyone knows c0da is noncanon, even the people who like mk's BS. Yours is not an unpopular opinion, its the more common one. More people dislike mk's ridiculous guar dung then those who like it. Either way it doesn't matter in the end, because it is noncanon, end of story.

ArchMikem

When concerning the "Godhead" theory, and that everything that happens in Elder Scrolls is one big dream, then why in the first place is "life" on Nirn so incredibly representative of actual real life? Everyone knows in a Dream the realities of the world, the laws of nature are absolutely thrown out the window and even if during the dream you're believing what you're seeing, you still at the same time witness moments or events that seem incredibly "off" or wrong to you, like "this can't be real" moment. Even a God I would assume will dream of some weird stuff. Basically, life on Nirn is too lifelike to be just a dream.

Really the idea that Nirn is actually a legit planet somewhere in space and that the Daedra are extra-dimensional beings interfering with our world through "magical" rifts in space time is much more plausible than it all being a dream of some super powerful being. .....at least to me.

Tyrobag

ArchMikem wrote: »

When concerning the "Godhead" theory, and that everything that happens in Elder Scrolls is one big dream, then why in the first place is "life" on Nirn so incredibly representative of actual real life? Everyone knows in a Dream the realities of the world, the laws of nature are absolutely thrown out the window and even if during the dream you're believing what you're seeing, you still at the same time witness moments or events that seem incredibly "off" or wrong to you, like "this can't be real" moment. Even a God I would assume will dream of some weird stuff. Basically, life on Nirn is too lifelike to be just a dream.

Really the idea that Nirn is actually a legit planet somewhere in space and that the Daedra are extra-dimensional beings interfering with our world through "magical" rifts in space time is much more plausible than it all being a dream of some super powerful being. .....at least to me.

Why do all of these kirkbridian theories have to assume that Mundus Oblivion and Aetherius cant possibly be what they are? Why do they assume that everything in the Elder Scrolls has to be a lie? If people don't like the series' lore, go find another game to play that fits what you're looking for instead of trying to rewrite an amazing series and convince people that you are right. Please stop spreading around your "alternate facts".

ArchMikem

Tyrobag wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

When concerning the "Godhead" theory, and that everything that happens in Elder Scrolls is one big dream, then why in the first place is "life" on Nirn so incredibly representative of actual real life? Everyone knows in a Dream the realities of the world, the laws of nature are absolutely thrown out the window and even if during the dream you're believing what you're seeing, you still at the same time witness moments or events that seem incredibly "off" or wrong to you, like "this can't be real" moment. Even a God I would assume will dream of some weird stuff. Basically, life on Nirn is too lifelike to be just a dream.

Really the idea that Nirn is actually a legit planet somewhere in space and that the Daedra are extra-dimensional beings interfering with our world through "magical" rifts in space time is much more plausible than it all being a dream of some super powerful being. .....at least to me.

Why do all of these kirkbridian theories have to assume that Mundus Oblivion and Aetherius cant possibly be what they are? Why do they assume that everything in the Elder Scrolls has to be a lie? If people don't like the series' lore, go find another game to play that fits what you're looking for instead of trying to rewrite an amazing series and convince people that you are right. Please stop spreading around your "alternate facts".

...was all that aimed at me? I'm not trying to rewrite the Universe, lol. Really my idea doesn't claim everything in TES is a lie, it's more like a more understandable interpretation of what they are. The Mundus is the "normal plain" where we all take place in on Nirn, and Oblivion and Aetherius are other planes of existence separate from the Mundus, capable of being traveled to via inter-dimensional rifts, ie. Magic Portals. If others want to believe other theories be my guest, I'm not stopping them.

Honestly I'm not even sure who Kirkbride is entirely. Is he a writer for Bethesda?

Tyrobag

ArchMikem wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

When concerning the "Godhead" theory, and that everything that happens in Elder Scrolls is one big dream, then why in the first place is "life" on Nirn so incredibly representative of actual real life? Everyone knows in a Dream the realities of the world, the laws of nature are absolutely thrown out the window and even if during the dream you're believing what you're seeing, you still at the same time witness moments or events that seem incredibly "off" or wrong to you, like "this can't be real" moment. Even a God I would assume will dream of some weird stuff. Basically, life on Nirn is too lifelike to be just a dream.

Really the idea that Nirn is actually a legit planet somewhere in space and that the Daedra are extra-dimensional beings interfering with our world through "magical" rifts in space time is much more plausible than it all being a dream of some super powerful being. .....at least to me.

Why do all of these kirkbridian theories have to assume that Mundus Oblivion and Aetherius cant possibly be what they are? Why do they assume that everything in the Elder Scrolls has to be a lie? If people don't like the series' lore, go find another game to play that fits what you're looking for instead of trying to rewrite an amazing series and convince people that you are right. Please stop spreading around your "alternate facts".

...was all that aimed at me? I'm not trying to rewrite the Universe, lol. Really my idea doesn't claim everything in TES is a lie, it's more like a more understandable interpretation of what they are. The Mundus is the "normal plain" where we all take place in on Nirn, and Oblivion and Aetherius are other planes of existence separate from the Mundus, capable of being traveled to via inter-dimensional rifts, ie. Magic Portals. If others want to believe other theories be my guest, I'm not stopping them.

Honestly I'm not even sure who Kirkbride is entirely. Is he a writer for Bethesda?

No, it is not aimed directly at you, but at anyone who goes around spreading mk's foolish theories.

Kirkbride used to be a writer quite a long time ago, but is now just a pain in the backside for people who care about the actual lore in TES. He wrote that stupid c0da website that all of the fake lore people flock to. He no longer has any affiliation with TES, and as such has no authority in TES lore.

jlmurra2

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Unpopular opinion time! I hate Kirkbride and I think he actually did a disservice to the elder scrolls series with his C0DA and Amaranth, Godhead and Dream writings. He completely removed all the mystery from the game by indulging in philosophical ramblings in an attempt to explain the changes between games.

When everything is a dream, nothing really matters. Thats how I see it at least. Its all one big dragonbreak.

I take solace in the knowledge that, according to C0DA there is no canon because everything is canon. So in MY C0DA there is no C0DA and what you see is what you get. Or the Dreaming Godhead is Nate/Nora, cryosleeping in Vault 111.

The Godhead concept is not only from Kirkbride's external writings, it has appeared in Elder Scrolls games. Here it is mentioned in the black book, Waking Dreams from Skyrim:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Black_Book:_Waking_Dreams

As for Kirkbride, do we really know what his involvement is in Elder Scrolls lore that appears in games currently? I know he left Bethesda after Morrowind, but then did work on the Oblivion Knights of Nine DLC? How do we really know how much involvement he has in the more current development of the lore?

jlmurra2

ArchMikem wrote: »

When concerning the "Godhead" theory, and that everything that happens in Elder Scrolls is one big dream, then why in the first place is "life" on Nirn so incredibly representative of actual real life? Everyone knows in a Dream the realities of the world, the laws of nature are absolutely thrown out the window and even if during the dream you're believing what you're seeing, you still at the same time witness moments or events that seem incredibly "off" or wrong to you, like "this can't be real" moment. Even a God I would assume will dream of some weird stuff. Basically, life on Nirn is too lifelike to be just a dream.

Really the idea that Nirn is actually a legit planet somewhere in space and that the Daedra are extra-dimensional beings interfering with our world through "magical" rifts in space time is much more plausible than it all being a dream of some super powerful being. .....at least to me.

A mortal dream is all "we" know. A divine dream, as that of a Godhead, how would a mortal know?

I remember Paarthurnax said that "Perhaps this world is simply the Egg of the next kalpa? As an immortal being he seems to believe that the current universe will be succeeded by another when a new kalpa begins. How do we know if next universe would be subject to any previous laws?

This is what I find interesting, and fun about Elder Scrolls lore. It is inspired from so much "real" philosophy that it gives the series a feeling of so much depth.

crashen17b14_ESO

Unfortunately Kirkbride's stain is tied into the game so long as his pet self-insert Vivec still exists. And it is reinforced with the new morrowind expansion, which adds another of Vivec's sermons, that directly mentions Amaranth.

The funny thing is that Secret World kind of has a similar background. Immensely powerful 'spirits' subdued lovecraftian space squid nightmare gods using bizarre magictech, and used them to fuel Creation. When the Dreamers stir, untold destruction occurs, and when they wake, the world is reset. When the world is reset, a new Age begins.

See the similarities? Dreamers are Anu, the Ages are Kalpas, etc. The difference is that reality is reality, powered by Gaia Engines, which run on the Dreamers... dreamstuff or something. Also, when an Age ends, there are remains of the previous civilization that can be discovered and speed up the advancement of the new Age. Humans return to the same place, and individuals powerful enough to survive the end of an Age are usually seen as gods in the new one. Loki, Odin and Thor for example were survivors from the previous age. Lilith came from the first age, and was most of the female deities throughout most religions and ages, she was so powerful.

But thats the thing. Thats what makes me like the kalpic/age cycle and dreamers in secret world, and hate it in elder scrolls. In elder scrolls, it is ALL a dream, with no real permanence. Nothing really matters because nothing is really real. In secret world, Reality is real. The Dreamers didnt dream it up, they were just imprisoned and their unknowable cosmic power was siphoned off to fuel the machine that shapes reality (kind of like the Towers and Earth Bones.) If they wake up, if the Age ends, existence is reset to factory settings and then sort of repeats. But there are fragments left behind and things can persist.

Tyrobag

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Unfortunately Kirkbride's stain is tied into the game so long as his pet self-insert Vivec still exists. And it is reinforced with the new morrowind expansion, which adds another of Vivec's sermons, that directly mentions Amaranth.

Except that Vivec's sermons are easily explained away by the fact that he is a poet, and thus lies & stretches the truth to make things more poetic, and to paint himself as being more powerful. He also has a vested interest in making the Dunmer think that they know better than anyone else, this way they will stay isolationists and be completely reliant on him. We already know he lied about his apotheosis. Vivec is an unreliable source.

ArchMikem

Tyrobag wrote: »

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Unfortunately Kirkbride's stain is tied into the game so long as his pet self-insert Vivec still exists. And it is reinforced with the new morrowind expansion, which adds another of Vivec's sermons, that directly mentions Amaranth.

Except that Vivec's sermons are easily explained away by the fact that he is a poet, and thus lies & stretches the truth to make things more poetic, and to paint himself as being more powerful. He also has a vested interest in making the Dunmer think that they know better than anyone else, this way they will stay isolationists and be completely reliant on him. We already know he lied about his apotheosis. Vivec is an unreliable source.

Vivec, just like Almalexia are nothing more than standard Dunmer who happened across the Magic of Lorkhan's Heart, and now use it to boast themselves as Gods. From what I see, Sotha Sil is the only one of the three who actually used his new divine power and knowledge to actually research the Universe, just like the Dwemer did. I seriously hope we actually see him in Clockwork City when that releases. Maybe that guy will give us actual answers.

Tyrobag

ArchMikem wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Unfortunately Kirkbride's stain is tied into the game so long as his pet self-insert Vivec still exists. And it is reinforced with the new morrowind expansion, which adds another of Vivec's sermons, that directly mentions Amaranth.

Except that Vivec's sermons are easily explained away by the fact that he is a poet, and thus lies & stretches the truth to make things more poetic, and to paint himself as being more powerful. He also has a vested interest in making the Dunmer think that they know better than anyone else, this way they will stay isolationists and be completely reliant on him. We already know he lied about his apotheosis. Vivec is an unreliable source.

Vivec, just like Almalexia are nothing more than standard Dunmer who happened across the Magic of Lorkhan's Heart, and now use it to boast themselves as Gods. From what I see, Sotha Sil is the only one of the three who actually used his new divine power and knowledge to actually research the Universe, just like the Dwemer did. I seriously hope we actually see him in Clockwork City when that releases. Maybe that guy will give us actual answers.

Hay! We agree!
Although I'd prefer he doesn't give too many answers, he is The Father of Mysteries after all.

Jitterbug

Vivec is imo the most untrustworthy figure in lore. Everything about him just screams cult leader, and I would take nothing he says as truth.

As to the Godhead, my stance must be "does it matter?" Until Morpheus offers you the pill theres no way to know either way.
You cant let ideas ruin your life.

LMar

There's already things that make people say wow is that real? Like the sun not being something that Nirn orbits around but rather a hole on the fabric of reality through which magic flows through. The constellations falling down and taking the appearance of mer/men. When the stars themselves are just smaller holes as well.