The answer to the op heals we have in cyro that make people unkillable

Lord_MK

Zos you nerfed resource cp but if you want to put these invincible builds away I think removing blessed would be a good idea. You said every cp passive needs a counter but healing doesn't. Don't tell me to use befoul because I tried dumping 60 points in there and it only reduces healing received by like 8% lol.
Quick recovery should be the ONLY healing passive there is. That way these tanky healbots just can't get carried by their cp and if they want good heals they'll actually have to build for it instead journeying cyro trolling with their reactive on.
Anything that causes you to take more damage should be a red passive. If you want more heals you'd have to take points out of other red passives, creating a bigger balance. Blue passives should and need to be solely offensive.
To figure out the problem with these unkillable builds you have to think really deep. Why do people get more tanky every patch ? I mean sure there's heavy but the increase of the cp cap has a lot to do with it. I think about it like this. A troll build has 600cp or 200cp per tree. Nowadays you can literally throw 100 into blessed and gain 25% increased healing alone. That's right, you've got major mending and there is no counter to this passive. It's just there and it's another thing that's carrying these tank builds.
Your average player may not do this but these tanky builds are doing it because they aren't even focused on dps. My point is you shouldn't be able to use a dps tree to improve your heals. You can't beat my logic for wanting that. I think we can all agree that healing is just way to strong in pvp. Have you ever hit someone and they're getting healed so hard that they're invulnerable to your dps ? I've been there too. You want to stop infinite resource management Zos but I also think you should look into this Zos, seriously.

Joy_Division

Another DPS player complaining about healing ... but doesn't have a problem with dodging or shielding or other means that players can be invincible that has nothing to do with the champion tree. Wait, check that, dodging does ...and where exactly in the champion tree is my counter to tumbling? Oh yeah, there isn't any.

So let me get this straight, these builds in your own words aren't even focused on DPS, meaning they can't kill you ... which is OK, but they fact you can;t kill them either somehow is a problem. Mmmmm, ok, I totally get what you want. The DPS should be able to kill the tank by herself even though the tank can't do any damage to to do the same to the DPS.

You don;t like people healing? Run a disease enchant on your weapon, use reverberating bash, pick an armor set that has a healing debuff component like Fasalla's Guile, use ultimates like Incapacitating Strike, group with a templar friend whose Dark Flares heal debuff cannot be dodged, tell PUGs to run a meatbag catapult, etc. And guess what, pretty much all of these stack! Healing has counters upon counters outside the champion system, it's just that people have to do the unthinkable and build for something aside from moar DPS. So they don't want to do that.

Instead they come on to these forums and petition ZoS to nerf stuff they simply can't burst down through pure damage.

RajinPVP

I dont know man... the only OP heal ive seen so far is BoL which you can cast over and over without penalty and without risk.

Lord_MK

Joy_Division wrote: »

Another DPS player complaining about healing ... but doesn't have a problem with dodging or shielding or other means that players can be invincible that has nothing to do with the champion tree. Wait, check that, dodging does ...and where exactly in the champion tree is my counter to tumbling? Oh yeah, there isn't any.

So let me get this straight, these builds in your own words aren't even focused on DPS, meaning they can't kill you ... which is OK, but they fact you can;t kill them either somehow is a problem. Mmmmm, ok, I totally get what you want. The DPS should be able to kill the tank by herself even though the tank can't do any damage to to do the same to the DPS.

You don;t like people healing? Run a disease enchant on your weapon, use reverberating bash, pick an armor set that has a healing debuff component like Fasalla's Guile, use ultimates like Incapacitating Strike, group with a templar friend whose Dark Flares heal debuff cannot be dodged, tell PUGs to run a meatbag catapult, etc. And guess what, pretty much all of these stack! Healing has counters upon counters outside the champion system, it's just that people have to do the unthinkable and build for something aside from moar DPS. So they don't want to do that.

Instead they come on to these forums and petition ZoS to nerf stuff they simply can't burst down through pure damage.

But you can't say to just run in a group and do this or tell the pugs to do that or run a particular build. I don't have a problem with tanking or healing actually. My problem is that you reactive healbots that CAN DO BOTH WITH A STAMINA SET ON THAT GIVES THEM NOTHING THAT ACTUALLY EMPOWERS HEALING. Like just think about it you literally have builds that are just being plain carried in that regard.

Lord_MK

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

I dont know man... the only OP heal ive seen so far is BoL which you can cast over and over without penalty and without risk.

So you've never ran into healing springs ?

zuto40

well thatd kill my medium armor nb, can we just mess with blocking mechanics and call it a day cause thats the only thing keeping me from bursting down these players, not the healing

BoxFoxx

I have suggested an easy solution on this that won't have to mean moving a bunch of things around and possibly making it worse as well as allowing PvE players to maintain their needed strength.

A cool down time on being healed in between heals, applicable only while in Cyrodiil.

E.G.: 1 second cooldown on being healed for every 1k of healing received. That applies to both self healing and heals from allies.

Medium armor builds would probably need a passive to reduce the cooldown time.

This would fix quite a bit while not messing up other mechanics. The dynamics of play will change and people would have to get used to it, but it will balance things out sufficiently.

Minno

Most of you should permanently come by Azura Star

BoxFoxx

Minno wrote: »

Most of you should permanently come by Azura Star

You're probably right. Most complaints are most likely coming from Scourge... hence the name, haha.

Rohamad_Ali

If you invite me to your Zerg I can bring these beasts down . Some of you may die ... But that's a risk I'm willing to take .

Minno

BoxFoxx wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Most of you should permanently come by Azura Star

You're probably right. Most our complaints are most likely coming from Scourge... hence the name, haha.

In AZ, most of the time spamming any spell would cost you a quick death. You don't have the CP to help add extra cost reduction and you don't have the 4-5k extra resource pools which inflated your dmg further.

It does have problems, but ultimately it's the best balance you'll get out of PvP. I'd stay there till BG's come out.

BoxFoxx

Minno wrote: »

BoxFoxx wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Most of you should permanently come by Azura Star

You're probably right. Most our complaints are most likely coming from Scourge... hence the name, haha.

In AZ, most of the time spamming any spell would cost you a quick death. You don't have the CP to help add extra cost reduction and you don't have the 4-5k extra resource pools which inflated your dmg further.

It does have problems, but ultimately it's the best balance you'll get out of PvP. I'd stay there till BG's come out.

I hear ya... AZ needs to be more populated though. In fact, all other campaigns are quite under populated compared to Scourge. Perhaps events exclusive to each campaign with corresponding rewards would help improve their populations. Also, why the heck does changing campaigns cost anything? Doesn't quite make sense. Wouldn't it be better to just have all rewards from the current campaign forfeit instead. Switching campaigns should be easier and smoother as well as decent population in each.

Minno

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

I dont know man... the only OP heal ive seen so far is BoL which you can cast over and over without penalty and without risk.

The strength of BoL is not in the instant cast, it's in the restoration tree passive that boosts your healing on targets below a certain percentage ("Increases the healing effects from your Restoring Light abilities by up to 10%, in proportion to the severity of the target's wounds.").
Major mending + using BoL on lower health will heal better than trying to spam it as soon as dmg hits you.

In terms of staying alive here's my priority list of avoidance:

Magicka builds-
Dodge chance> shield> healing> block> dodge roll.

Stamina builds-
Dodge roll> dodge chance> healing> block> shield

Tanks-
Block> dodge change> healing> dodge roll> shield.

Strider_Roshin

Blessed is an issue with the intention of the Champion System though. Afterall for every positive champion passive, there needs to be an equally powerful negative that negates it. Defile doesn't accomplish this.

Minno

BoxFoxx wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

BoxFoxx wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Most of you should permanently come by Azura Star

You're probably right. Most our complaints are most likely coming from Scourge... hence the name, haha.

In AZ, most of the time spamming any spell would cost you a quick death. You don't have the CP to help add extra cost reduction and you don't have the 4-5k extra resource pools which inflated your dmg further.

It does have problems, but ultimately it's the best balance you'll get out of PvP. I'd stay there till BG's come out.

I hear ya... AZ needs to be more populated though. In fact, all other campaigns are quite under populated compared to Scourge. Perhaps events exclusive to each campaign with corresponding rewards would help improve their populations. Also, why the heck does changing campaigns cost anything? Doesn't quite make sense. Wouldn't it be better to just have all rewards from the current campaign forfeit instead. Switching campaigns should be easier and smoother as well as decent population in each.

They want you to commit to a campaign instead of running around. But the real issue is that the PvP reward system is substandard compared to the system they have in pve:

- ranking ladder for trial/vmsa completion times.
- zone boss loot that directly impacted PvP builds.
- master weapons only possible to receive in pve.

In PvP we have:
- reward system based on AP gain. AP is highly farmable and currently not worthwhile against pure PvP killing.
- no ranking ladder to promote competitive play. EMP AP ladder basically supports time spent in PvP over skill. It should be the opposite.
- can buy AP overland sets, but killing bosses gaurentees a weapon/hand/shoulder piece. Farming overland bosses > running around PvP in terms of time spent.
- end of campaign rewards offer same sets earned via "rewards of worthy" mail. This offers terrible incentive to help your factionscore and ultimately leads to stale maps and less than ideal PvP participation.

PvP should have a pve set or two that can be considered BIS and pve should have a set or two that are considered BIS for PvP. Currently its only through pve meathod can you become ready for PvP, and thus system fails to attract the costumers need to keep PvP vibrant.

This is of course not looking into surgical balance issues.

Alphaa

Which ever CP you change people will rant about another one

Baboonezz

Still waiting to meet these godlike magplar healers you all talk about that are unkillable. Only unkillable players I meet are tankDKs which do nothing but stand there blocking.

Lord_MK

BoxFoxx wrote: »

I have suggested an easy solution on this that won't have to mean moving a bunch of things around and possibly making it worse as well as allowing PvE players to maintain their needed strength.

A cool down time on being healed in between heals, applicable only while in Cyrodiil.

E.G.: 1 second cooldown on being healed for every 1k of healing received. That applies to both self healing and heals from allies.

Medium armor builds would probably need a passive to reduce the cooldown time.

This would fix quite a bit while not messing up other mechanics. The dynamics of play will change and people would have to get used to it, but it will balance things out sufficiently.

Ty somebody who has ideas as well instead of just coming in here to tell me I'm dumb asf.

Baboonezz wrote: »

Still waiting to meet these godlike magplar healers you all talk about that are unkillable. Only unkillable players I meet are tankDKs which do nothing but stand there blocking.

Question. Hm players do you play with on average?

Baboonezz

Lord_MK wrote: »

BoxFoxx wrote: »

I have suggested an easy solution on this that won't have to mean moving a bunch of things around and possibly making it worse as well as allowing PvE players to maintain their needed strength.

A cool down time on being healed in between heals, applicable only while in Cyrodiil.

E.G.: 1 second cooldown on being healed for every 1k of healing received. That applies to both self healing and heals from allies.

Medium armor builds would probably need a passive to reduce the cooldown time.

This would fix quite a bit while not messing up other mechanics. The dynamics of play will change and people would have to get used to it, but it will balance things out sufficiently.

Ty somebody who has ideas as well instead of just coming in here to tell me I'm dumb asf.

Baboonezz wrote: »

Still waiting to meet these godlike magplar healers you all talk about that are unkillable. Only unkillable players I meet are tankDKs which do nothing but stand there blocking.

Question. Hm players do you play with on average?

Me and one other, a stamDK. Sometimes we surf the tail end of the AD zerg but most of the time hang in between travel points around rocks/cliffs/trees. Have left many a tank DK alone after killing his friends, but magplar healers die.

One that *almost* got left alone wasn't wearing malubeth or reactive from what I could tell, seemed to be trollking, sanctuary and possibly kags. I did ask him what he was wearing and he proceeded to call me everything under the sun. Malu/reactive/trans magplars are whatever, sure they take a few mins to whittle down but they die.

Maybe the ones you run into are wearing a better combination of armor sets and I just haven't ran into them yet, because their are much worse combos for a magplar healer than malu/reactive/trans that hopefully the masses don't catch wind of

Lexxypwns

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

I dont know man... the only OP heal ive seen so far is BoL which you can cast over and over without penalty and without risk.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say, vigor is as strong as BoL. Sure, the initial heal isn't as strong, but the total healing is more, at a similar cost, and it can proc all sorts of other things. Furthermore, vigor+major vitality + major mending gives you a window of basically being nigh on invulnerable while its running, particularly if you've also got CC immunity. Vigor also heals more people and can proc troll king.

Edit: Also, if anyone thinks @Lord_MK is dumb, I just want to assure you that he's a top tier pvp'er who would be that on any platform or server.

davey1107

@lord_mk Some of the initial reports on future updates (probably Morrowind) indicate to me that zos is looking at the issues you're describing. It seems like they're going to reduce regen and maybe eliminate the cost reduction CP passives. Because all the classes are basically infinite resources right now, these builds can exist.

Once they can only cast their stupid mega shield/block/heal spams half as fast, all it'll take is a khajit, a sharp butter knife and some moxxy to fix the issue.

Lieblingsjunge

Joy_Division wrote: »

Another DPS player complaining about healing ... but doesn't have a problem with dodging or shielding or other means that players can be invincible that has nothing to do with the champion tree. Wait, check that, dodging does ...and where exactly in the champion tree is my counter to tumbling? Oh yeah, there isn't any.

So let me get this straight, these builds in your own words aren't even focused on DPS, meaning they can't kill you ... which is OK, but they fact you can;t kill them either somehow is a problem. Mmmmm, ok, I totally get what you want. The DPS should be able to kill the tank by herself even though the tank can't do any damage to to do the same to the DPS.

You don;t like people healing? Run a disease enchant on your weapon, use reverberating bash, pick an armor set that has a healing debuff component like Fasalla's Guile, use ultimates like Incapacitating Strike, group with a templar friend whose Dark Flares heal debuff cannot be dodged, tell PUGs to run a meatbag catapult, etc. And guess what, pretty much all of these stack! Healing has counters upon counters outside the champion system, it's just that people have to do the unthinkable and build for something aside from moar DPS. So they don't want to do that.

Instead they come on to these forums and petition ZoS to nerf stuff they simply can't burst down through pure damage.

THIS.

There's nothing more to say really. Healing got a ton of counters outside of CP, whereas e.g. dodge-rolling got 0 cp-counters.

Also, if you think tanks are an issue in PvP, think about why people built tanky in the first place. To counter all the people running around in double-procsets & stacking weapon damage. You can't blame tanks for being tanky, when that's the only means of countering the perma-dodgerolling double-procset-stacking players.

+ If someone's too tanky so you can't kill them(which makes sense.. i mean, you don't go full tank-mode in reactives + malubeth, expecting to be killed by one single person. When people build like this they can't kill you anyway). If I run into a 60k HP tank in Cyrodiil, take it as a mobile ultimate generator & just move on.

Mayrael

Being so tanky that you seems to be immune to any dmg isnt a problem, tank should be tanky, problem is that you can do this forever especialy stamDKs with their ulti synergies.
DPS vs Tank shouldnt be an infinite battle. But in current state it looks like that:
Tank takes very low dmg, so he can heal up easy and can sustain ad infinitum. Deals lower dmg.
DPS can do some more dmg than tank, but due to his low resistances and hp it seems that tank has better dps. DPS can heal from 30% hp to 100% in one skill cast due to high resource pools. He needs to be very cautious as he can get killed very easy especialy by gankers and proc sets.

Its not as simple as just nerfing blessed because its just one of the conditions when talking about tank vs dps fights. We all have access to heals, nerfing blessed wont hurt tanks as much as DPSs will. Why? Tanks take less dmg, most of them have access to major mending, bonuses to healing taken and recieved, blessed is just an fraction of total heal buffs for them while 10% from blessed is in many cases only heal buff for DPSes. Im not saying its a bad idea, but it can have worse results than intentions.

In general playing DPS requires more skill, it bases more on active defence than passive mitigation, one mistake can lead you to death while at the same time you make no real threat to tanks as you cant kill them as fast.

Turelus

Joy_Division wrote: »

Another DPS player complaining about healing ... but doesn't have a problem with dodging or shielding or other means that players can be invincible that has nothing to do with the champion tree. Wait, check that, dodging does ...and where exactly in the champion tree is my counter to tumbling? Oh yeah, there isn't any.

So let me get this straight, these builds in your own words aren't even focused on DPS, meaning they can't kill you ... which is OK, but they fact you can;t kill them either somehow is a problem. Mmmmm, ok, I totally get what you want. The DPS should be able to kill the tank by herself even though the tank can't do any damage to to do the same to the DPS.

You don;t like people healing? Run a disease enchant on your weapon, use reverberating bash, pick an armor set that has a healing debuff component like Fasalla's Guile, use ultimates like Incapacitating Strike, group with a templar friend whose Dark Flares heal debuff cannot be dodged, tell PUGs to run a meatbag catapult, etc. And guess what, pretty much all of these stack! Healing has counters upon counters outside the champion system, it's just that people have to do the unthinkable and build for something aside from moar DPS. So they don't want to do that.

Instead they come on to these forums and petition ZoS to nerf stuff they simply can't burst down through pure damage.

I don't think I can say it any better than this.

I'm always sad when people want to push PvP even more into glass cannons online. If we keep up with nerfs to everything but damage whilst still adding more damage we might as well just be running and insta-gib game. One shot kills, nothing else matters.

Cathexis

Why are any non dot heals instant cast???
If you can drop a heal to full there should be at least a half second time to interrupt.

That's is in my mind at least one way to introduce counterplay to endless healspam.

Also... Why can't you purge opponents, or silence them briefly more easily.

I think silence in particular is very underused in this game while root spam is far too easy; silences and interrupts have a much more valuable effect in counterplay and don't destroy mobility/los - the thing which currently cripples combat is root spam for exactly that reason (it destroys mobility/los and eliminates outnu!bered counterplay).

Derra

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Blessed is an issue with the intention of the Champion System though. Afterall for every positive champion passive, there needs to be an equally powerful negative that negates it. Defile doesn't accomplish this.

It would - if defile debuffs weren´t so easily dispelled by the main healing class aswell as hard to reapply.
The core problem being that defile requires a healing debuff to work in the first place - the game only offers one spammable healing debuff on an instant ability.

Also magica builds in general lack an accessable healing debuff.

I think a lot more abilities should see minor defile added to enable the possibility to utilize the CP star.

Valencer

Turelus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Another DPS player complaining about healing ... but doesn't have a problem with dodging or shielding or other means that players can be invincible that has nothing to do with the champion tree. Wait, check that, dodging does ...and where exactly in the champion tree is my counter to tumbling? Oh yeah, there isn't any.

So let me get this straight, these builds in your own words aren't even focused on DPS, meaning they can't kill you ... which is OK, but they fact you can;t kill them either somehow is a problem. Mmmmm, ok, I totally get what you want. The DPS should be able to kill the tank by herself even though the tank can't do any damage to to do the same to the DPS.

You don;t like people healing? Run a disease enchant on your weapon, use reverberating bash, pick an armor set that has a healing debuff component like Fasalla's Guile, use ultimates like Incapacitating Strike, group with a templar friend whose Dark Flares heal debuff cannot be dodged, tell PUGs to run a meatbag catapult, etc. And guess what, pretty much all of these stack! Healing has counters upon counters outside the champion system, it's just that people have to do the unthinkable and build for something aside from moar DPS. So they don't want to do that.

Instead they come on to these forums and petition ZoS to nerf stuff they simply can't burst down through pure damage.

I don't think I can say it any better than this.

I'm always sad when people want to push PvP even more into glass cannons online. If we keep up with nerfs to everything but damage whilst still adding more damage we might as well just be running and insta-gib game. One shot kills, nothing else matters.

If glass cannons are so good, why is heavy armour the meta?

Turelus

Valencer wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Another DPS player complaining about healing ... but doesn't have a problem with dodging or shielding or other means that players can be invincible that has nothing to do with the champion tree. Wait, check that, dodging does ...and where exactly in the champion tree is my counter to tumbling? Oh yeah, there isn't any.

So let me get this straight, these builds in your own words aren't even focused on DPS, meaning they can't kill you ... which is OK, but they fact you can;t kill them either somehow is a problem. Mmmmm, ok, I totally get what you want. The DPS should be able to kill the tank by herself even though the tank can't do any damage to to do the same to the DPS.

You don;t like people healing? Run a disease enchant on your weapon, use reverberating bash, pick an armor set that has a healing debuff component like Fasalla's Guile, use ultimates like Incapacitating Strike, group with a templar friend whose Dark Flares heal debuff cannot be dodged, tell PUGs to run a meatbag catapult, etc. And guess what, pretty much all of these stack! Healing has counters upon counters outside the champion system, it's just that people have to do the unthinkable and build for something aside from moar DPS. So they don't want to do that.

Instead they come on to these forums and petition ZoS to nerf stuff they simply can't burst down through pure damage.

I don't think I can say it any better than this.

I'm always sad when people want to push PvP even more into glass cannons online. If we keep up with nerfs to everything but damage whilst still adding more damage we might as well just be running and insta-gib game. One shot kills, nothing else matters.

If glass cannons are so good, why is heavy armour the meta?

Right now they're not, thankfully. However as this thread shows unless even tanked players can be one shot the games not good enough.

Valencer

Youre exaggerating what the OP is trying to convey.

He actually has a point because right now a heavy armour magplar can go full sustain and still have decent healing output so long as he/she puts 100 points into Blessed, even though spell damage might be minimal. There's something to be said for not allowing healers to also be the tankiest specs in Cyrodiil at the same time.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You don;t like people healing? Run a disease enchant on your weapon, use reverberating bash, pick an armor set that has a healing debuff component like Fasalla's Guile, use ultimates like Incapacitating Strike, group with a templar friend whose Dark Flares heal debuff cannot be dodged, tell PUGs to run a meatbag catapult, etc. And guess what, pretty much all of these stack! Healing has counters upon counters outside the champion system, it's just that people have to do the unthinkable and build for something aside from moar DPS. So they don't want to do that.

It's just too bad that all the debuffs in the world don't do anything against a magicka templar. At least be honest and stop pretending like there's any real counters... you basically have to focus down the healer for an extended period of time and hope you get a burst window with multiple people focusing him down while he gets CC'd and is busy CC breaking for a second. When youre alone fighting multiple people + healbot? Good luck, youre going to need it.

Isellskooma

I'm looking for a 2vX partner that runs Fassalas. I really prefer a DK with reverb, 100 into reduce healing, and place a meatbag everytime I fight people.

Asardes

Another "Nerf PvP but primarily hit PvE" thread. I would like it to see how you beat really hard PvE content with tanks and healers who have been deprived of Blessed. And the DDs are usually the ones that croak