Endless Fury, Haunting Curse

Strider_Roshin

I either see one or both of these abilities on every death recap.

Strider_Roshin

Gotta love the counter-play in this game.

FriedEggSandwich

You can dodge endless fury and it's never been buffed afaik (just fixed). Curse is now a troll skill, its cheese potential is through the roof. What do you suggest? What do you want this thread to be?

Strider_Roshin

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

You can dodge endless fury and it's never been buffed afaik (just fixed). Curse is now a troll skill, its cheese potential is through the roof. What do you suggest? What do you want this thread to be?

There's a few issues I have with sorcs. But to stay on topic haunting curse needs its damage reduced by 30℅, and they need to give the other morph the 3.5 sec proc with the default damage. Having something that powerful on set it, and forget it mode is just stupid.

Another thing, if sorcs want the strongest damage shield in the game that's fine, but for one it shouldn't stack, and second they shouldn't have a wall of hard hitting mines on top of it. I like the rooting factor of mines, and I think sorcs need that, but this immobilizing wall shouldn't hit like a truck on top of it; that's just over kill. I say make one morph have three hard hitting mines, and weaken the strength of the other morph while giving it immobilization capabilities.

Lord-Otto

Duh.
Did you really need to open another of those "nerf sorc" threads?
On topic, if you can't outheal a curse every four seconds, you need more defense. If you have multiple curses from different people on you, your positioning was poor. Welcome to ESO PvP when dodge spam can't cheese you out of player mistake.
And slot Purge, FFS.

ninjaguyman

@Lord-Otto
idk what reasonable build is gonna be able to fit purge on bar unless they were building specifically for group support or tanking somehow. you might as well just cast a shield or use a vigor before the explosion. and with the second curse being so long, it is completely possible to have multiple curses on you at a time, even with a decent amount of los on your part. curse is an instant cast ability that has no travel time, its not that hard to get off.

Your first suggestion is completely true though. indeed one should be able to outheal a single curse every 3.5 seconds. but its multiple curses that are considered cheese. but whats the difference between just a bunch of curses exploding on one person and people just using other attacks on said person? well other attacks can still be timed on top of the curse explosions.

I personally haven't ran into a bunch of people just cheesing with curse however I wouldnt put it past people from doing that. as said above, the cheese potential is through the roof

Stamicka

Regarding the curse, 3.5 seconds is a long time for a lot of counter play, I don't get why everyone is saying it's uncounterable. For one, you can cleanse it if you're a Templar, if not you have a good 3 seconds to out vigor the curse, you can dodge roll as soon as the curse is about to explode which will prevent any frags/ other source of burst from stacking with the curse or CC'ing you, or if you're a magic class shields are a good counter too.

Minalan

ninjaguyman wrote: »

@Lord-Otto
idk what reasonable build is gonna be able to fit purge on bar unless they were building specifically for group support or tanking somehow. you might as well just cast a shield or use a vigor before the explosion. and with the second curse being so long, it is completely possible to have multiple curses on you at a time, even with a decent amount of los on your part. curse is an instant cast ability that has no travel time, its not that hard to get off.

Your first suggestion is completely true though. indeed one should be able to outheal a single curse every 3.5 seconds. but its multiple curses that are considered cheese. but whats the difference between just a bunch of curses exploding on one person and people just using other attacks on said person? well other attacks can still be timed on top of the curse explosions.

I personally haven't ran into a bunch of people just cheesing with curse however I wouldnt put it past people from doing that. as said above, the cheese potential is through the roof

The same builds that absolutely have to slot RML?

silky_soft

What class has best sustain skill? Has cost reduction passive for all skills? Lowest Ulti cost, thats also a passive? Free execute, yeop also a passive? Free repeatable no skill damage? You notice it more now since everyone got no cp and gone back to sorc.

Probs the warden too when it comes out to sell boxes.

Lord-Otto

^
The answer is every stam build, especially NBs.

FriedEggSandwich

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

You can dodge endless fury and it's never been buffed afaik (just fixed). Curse is now a troll skill, its cheese potential is through the roof. What do you suggest? What do you want this thread to be?

There's a few issues I have with sorcs. But to stay on topic haunting curse needs its damage reduced by 30℅, and they need to give the other morph the 3.5 sec proc with the default damage. Having something that powerful on set it, and forget it mode is just stupid.

Another thing, if sorcs want the strongest damage shield in the game that's fine, but for one it shouldn't stack, and second they shouldn't have a wall of hard hitting mines on top of it. I like the rooting factor of mines, and I think sorcs need that, but this immobilizing wall shouldn't hit like a truck on top of it; that's just over kill. I say make one morph have three hard hitting mines, and weaken the strength of the other morph while giving it immobilization capabilities.

Here's my perspective; strictly speaking for pvp curse has always been the only class skill sorcs can guarantee doing some damage with. There are other skills like force pulse and lightening staff heavies that will also guarantee damage, but they are not class skills and some sorcs don't use them. I like to use a fire staff and I don't like to use force pulse or crushing shock, so curse is the only skill I can pressure you with if you have a lot of dodge chance, are a perma-blocker, have reflect or can cloak my attacks. It's still not 100% guaranteed damage because it can be purged easily by templars, but it's good enough.

My other damaging abilities are fire staff light/heavy attacks, frags, mages wrath, streak and sometimes mines, all of which can be dodged or avoided apart from streak, but that's a small amount of damage anyway and it's melee range only. So if you're a savvy player and can avoid all my projectiles and traps then curse it literally the only thing I will damage you with. The only option for me then is to cc you and do all my projectile damage to you before you break free, which can be unreliable. My point is that if curse gets a 30% damage nerf then I can't keep any pressure on slippery players.

I haven't pvp'd for a few weeks so I'm not actually sure how much curse is now hitting players for with the 8% damage buff to staves, but whatever it is it's boosted by 8% (which is a lot) by the fire staff passive. Curse didn't received a base damage buff this patch. When the homestead patch notes were released I predicted that the 8% damage boost from staves would pave the way for people to cry for class nerfs to sorcs, and that is what you're now doing. Can you see why I would be opposed to curse getting a damage nerf? I really don't like the idea of class nerfs resulting from over zealous non-class buffs, because it then forces reliance on the non-class buff and makes the class weaker without it.

When it comes to curse I would agree that the skill is now too easy to be annoying with in pvp, but I can only suggest that the haunting change is reverted. I can't think of any way to balance haunting curse in pvp without spoiling it for those sorcs who want to use it like they always have, i.e once every 3.5s. Everyone with pvp experience considered velocious curse to be balanced, even after it became unblockable. The only change it received this patch was a 2nd tick after 12s, which is not useful for burst dps in pvp. Any extra damage it now does comes from a non-class passive. 12s is too long for a pvp dot imo, and it only ticks twice in those 12s. So from a user perspective the 2nd tick is almost useless, and from a target perspective you have this thing on you that you can't do anything about for 12s. The best solution is to remove the 2nd tick and bring back velocious curse.

If curse had to be nerfed and zos were too stubborn to give us back velociuos curse then I would rather it became blockable again than receive a base damage nerf. The skill has never once had a buff to its base damage and should not receive a nerf to it. But I would be happiest to see the haunting mechanic gone and the skill returned to what it was last patch.

I would also like to see the destro passive reverted, but that's not going to happen. It's not fair to nerf sorcs' class skills as a result though. I hope zos can see that to nerf sorcs because they buffed destro staff would *** a lot of people off. A better solution in my opinion would be to just turn the 8% damage buff into something like minor beserk so it doesn't stack with other sources of 8% more damage. As it stands right now you can stack the 8% from fire staff with minor beserk which is another 8% more damage, and also minor vulnerability, which is another 8% more damage technically. I can see how the damage potential is too high, but the solution is not to nerf the base damage of skills. You get me?

I agree that wards shouldn't stack, but just removing the ability to stack them without doing anything else would cause big balance issues. That's also not likely to happen because zos addressed shield stacking by reducing their duration to 6s.

Mines are cheesy but easy to see and avoid. They're not affected by the 8% single-target damage passive from fire staff because they're considered an aoe in that respect, so their damage will be buffed by lightening staff instead. They're the best counter to an aggressive melee player that is hard to keep your distance from. I will usually streak to keep my distance from a high dps melee fighter but if that isn't working and I'm taking a lot of damage then mines are a good option. I don't believe they're overpowered simply because you don't have to take damage from them and they can be effectively disarmed by setting them all off at once. There is a small cooldown on their damage I believe, and they can no longer stack. They're also expensive to use. Basically they shouldn't be hitting like a truck from someone using a fire staff. If you took away their damage and just made them root then they would need the magika cost reducing.

tl;dr: bring back velocious curse, it's the 12s duration that makes it op in pvp, reverse 8% destro buff or turn it into minor beserk, don't nerf class skills that have never been buffed, fix shield stacking and give us an alternative to it, mines are fine.

Biro123

The other thing with haunting curse is that you can only have one curse active at a time - so I curse someone, 3.5 seconds later hit them with the rest of my burst - they back off to the backlines to heal-up - SO I start attacking someone else. I need curse as part of my damage rotation - so cast it again - and it instantly is removed from that original player (or at least that's what should be happening)

As FriedEgg mentioned - I don't use force pulse/CS either.. my damage is purely from curse/wrath/frags - that's it. Curse is the nearest thing to a spammable in there - if you count every 3.5 seconds as spamming.. inbetween that it casting wrath to try to proc frags.. So yeah, there will be curse AND wrath on your death recaps - cos its the curse hitting at the same time as frags and wrath that causes the death.. but what you're not seeing is the amount of really low dmg wrath hits inbetween the bursts - and the amount of curse hits that don't come with an un-dodged, procced frag - so it gets easily healed through before the next burst..

And mines? I've stopped using it except for putting behind keep doors.. It only has a place on my overload bar since it seems like every fight has someone just mist-form over them or a tank just stomp over them with block up. They are soo often countered and so easily, I just don't find it worth the magicka to cast them.


Its probably worth mentioning too that when the opposition breaks/starts running/dying in a many vs many fight, then there isn't time for sorcs to set up a full 4-second burst on anyone since they are dying/running so quickly. Then I just resort to spamming wrath on any and everyone in range - so yeah, it'll be on your recap - but really, you'd have died anyway, regardless.

Strider_Roshin

@FriedEggSandwich the issue with mines is that as a melee player, you have to run into them because you don't stand a chance at range combat. My suggestion when it came to curse was to bring back velocious, and make haunting curse the other morph, but have it do less damage.

Biro123

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich the issue with mines is that as a melee player, you have to run into them because you don't stand a chance at range combat. My suggestion when it came to curse was to bring back velocious, and make haunting curse the other morph, but have it do less damage.

That's very similar to what many sorcs suggested in the PTS.. ie. keep velocious as is and give the other morph the extra tick

bronski

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich the issue with mines is that as a melee player, you have to run into them because you don't stand a chance at range combat. My suggestion when it came to curse was to bring back velocious, and make haunting curse the other morph, but have it do less damage.

i honestly wouldnt mind that, or even reverting curse to how it was before. the thing that bothers me is that the whole pts cycle for sorc has been spent discussing a skill that was already balanced for both pve and pvp. sorcs were and are in a good place, could have just used some small balance changes (maybe couple second more to shields or less cost increase to streak if used offensivly, or maybe a form of healing that doesnt force sorcs to use resto for healing ward)

Lord-Otto

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich the issue with mines is that as a melee player, you have to run into them because you don't stand a chance at range combat. My suggestion when it came to curse was to bring back velocious, and make haunting curse the other morph, but have it do less damage.

And sorcs don't stand a chance against melee without mines.
While the difference between mines-no mines is admittedly much smaller than bow-staff, the superior melee damage, the snares and the mobility/evasiveness of dodge-cancelled melee attacks makes stamina superior in melee range (duh).
Take solace in the fact that mines got nerfed heavily already, and there used to be melee combat against sorc before said nerf.

t3hdubzy

Honestly i hate curse, especially when im not running vigor on my bar. It does make for some very tough encounters and makes 2 v 1 extremely tough to recover from if i dont have potion rdy yet for immovable.

That said, I dont think a nerf is needed, its fun to play against tough fights.

Koolio

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

You can dodge endless fury and it's never been buffed afaik (just fixed). Curse is now a troll skill, its cheese potential is through the roof. What do you suggest? What do you want this thread to be?

There's a few issues I have with sorcs. But to stay on topic haunting curse needs its damage reduced by 30℅, and they need to give the other morph the 3.5 sec proc with the default damage. Having something that powerful on set it, and forget it mode is just stupid.

Another thing, if sorcs want the strongest damage shield in the game that's fine, but for one it shouldn't stack, and second they shouldn't have a wall of hard hitting mines on top of it. I like the rooting factor of mines, and I think sorcs need that, but this immobilizing wall shouldn't hit like a truck on top of it; that's just over kill. I say make one morph have three hard hitting mines, and weaken the strength of the other morph while giving it immobilization capabilities.

Here's my perspective; strictly speaking for pvp curse has always been the only class skill sorcs can guarantee doing some damage with. There are other skills like force pulse and lightening staff heavies that will also guarantee damage, but they are not class skills and some sorcs don't use them. I like to use a fire staff and I don't like to use force pulse or crushing shock, so curse is the only skill I can pressure you with if you have a lot of dodge chance, are a perma-blocker, have reflect or can cloak my attacks. It's still not 100% guaranteed damage because it can be purged easily by templars, but it's good enough.

My other damaging abilities are fire staff light/heavy attacks, frags, mages wrath, streak and sometimes mines, all of which can be dodged or avoided apart from streak, but that's a small amount of damage anyway and it's melee range only. So if you're a savvy player and can avoid all my projectiles and traps then curse it literally the only thing I will damage you with. The only option for me then is to cc you and do all my projectile damage to you before you break free, which can be unreliable. My point is that if curse gets a 30% damage nerf then I can't keep any pressure on slippery players.

I haven't pvp'd for a few weeks so I'm not actually sure how much curse is now hitting players for with the 8% damage buff to staves, but whatever it is it's boosted by 8% (which is a lot) by the fire staff passive. Curse didn't received a base damage buff this patch. When the homestead patch notes were released I predicted that the 8% damage boost from staves would pave the way for people to cry for class nerfs to sorcs, and that is what you're now doing. Can you see why I would be opposed to curse getting a damage nerf? I really don't like the idea of class nerfs resulting from over zealous non-class buffs, because it then forces reliance on the non-class buff and makes the class weaker without it.

When it comes to curse I would agree that the skill is now too easy to be annoying with in pvp, but I can only suggest that the haunting change is reverted. I can't think of any way to balance haunting curse in pvp without spoiling it for those sorcs who want to use it like they always have, i.e once every 3.5s. Everyone with pvp experience considered velocious curse to be balanced, even after it became unblockable. The only change it received this patch was a 2nd tick after 12s, which is not useful for burst dps in pvp. Any extra damage it now does comes from a non-class passive. 12s is too long for a pvp dot imo, and it only ticks twice in those 12s. So from a user perspective the 2nd tick is almost useless, and from a target perspective you have this thing on you that you can't do anything about for 12s. The best solution is to remove the 2nd tick and bring back velocious curse.

If curse had to be nerfed and zos were too stubborn to give us back velociuos curse then I would rather it became blockable again than receive a base damage nerf. The skill has never once had a buff to its base damage and should not receive a nerf to it. But I would be happiest to see the haunting mechanic gone and the skill returned to what it was last patch.

I would also like to see the destro passive reverted, but that's not going to happen. It's not fair to nerf sorcs' class skills as a result though. I hope zos can see that to nerf sorcs because they buffed destro staff would *** a lot of people off. A better solution in my opinion would be to just turn the 8% damage buff into something like minor beserk so it doesn't stack with other sources of 8% more damage. As it stands right now you can stack the 8% from fire staff with minor beserk which is another 8% more damage, and also minor vulnerability, which is another 8% more damage technically. I can see how the damage potential is too high, but the solution is not to nerf the base damage of skills. You get me?

I agree that wards shouldn't stack, but just removing the ability to stack them without doing anything else would cause big balance issues. That's also not likely to happen because zos addressed shield stacking by reducing their duration to 6s.

Mines are cheesy but easy to see and avoid. They're not affected by the 8% single-target damage passive from fire staff because they're considered an aoe in that respect, so their damage will be buffed by lightening staff instead. They're the best counter to an aggressive melee player that is hard to keep your distance from. I will usually streak to keep my distance from a high dps melee fighter but if that isn't working and I'm taking a lot of damage then mines are a good option. I don't believe they're overpowered simply because you don't have to take damage from them and they can be effectively disarmed by setting them all off at once. There is a small cooldown on their damage I believe, and they can no longer stack. They're also expensive to use. Basically they shouldn't be hitting like a truck from someone using a fire staff. If you took away their damage and just made them root then they would need the magika cost reducing.

tl;dr: bring back velocious curse, it's the 12s duration that makes it op in pvp, reverse 8% destro buff or turn it into minor beserk, don't nerf class skills that have never been buffed, fix shield stacking and give us an alternative to it, mines are fine.

Most the stuff here is pretty reasonable except the 8% fire staff change due to Magic Nightblade needing that 8%. They have minor berserk already. It will push them further into the rabbit hole

Malamar1229

ones an execute, the other is a staple burst spell.

no different than any of te other executes.

Sorry that only like 5 or 6 sorc class spells have any viability in PvP.....

Waffennacht

With the extended Familiar Pulse, one would have thought Prey would've had the extension...

Would've made sense to me

CyrusArya

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich the issue with mines is that as a melee player, you have to run into them because you don't stand a chance at range combat. My suggestion when it came to curse was to bring back velocious, and make haunting curse the other morph, but have it do less damage.

I've said this elsewhere, but mines are so easy to counter as a stam build if you know what you're doing. Problem is, most people don't, and against them It's a great skill that seemingly has no counter play. Contrary to what you claim, sorcs have the most potential counterplay of any class because other than curse every single skill is dodgeable and blockable, and half of those are reflectable as well. Combine this with the fact that Sorcs rely 100% on lining up the perfect burst to kill competent players, and the reality is that sorcs need time and space to be able to win competitive fights. Shield stacking and mines give just that, and without em most sorcs would be fodder for other classes in a 1v1 situation.

The problem with a lot of these QQ threads about sorcs is they come from a lot of people who fundamentally don't understand how to counter a sorc and so think the class is just OP. Ignorance should never dictate balance concerns. I have perspective from both sides, and I can tell you that between capable opponents, a 1v1 between a sorc and any other class is a very competitive and drawn out fight as of right now. Literally any other class. As such, I don't see how anyone can advocate sweeping nerfs to sorcs without throwing the balance way out of wack between competent players.

josh.lackey_ESO

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I either see one or both of these abilities on every death recap.

Funny, most of my death recaps show Incapacitating Strike and Executioner. And the ones that don't show Eye of the Storm.

Also, just dodge spam to the nearest golden circle on the ground and push X.

Strider_Roshin

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I either see one or both of these abilities on every death recap.

Funny, most of my death recaps show Incapacitating Strike and Executioner. And the ones that don't show Eye of the Storm.

Must be nice. I can't even recall the last time I was hit by a stamina move, unless you count viper's sting or velidreth as a stamina move.

BohnT

Endless Fury + curse is a problem.
Fury is arguably the best execute in pvp. A skill without casttime that lasts for 4 seconds and kills the target once it hits 20%.
Normally the execute hits for about 5-7k that means you need about 28-35k health to survive a skill that is always active except you are a templar. Don't tell me you can dodge it, any good sorc will keep it up all the time and you can't dodge the whole fight.
Curse deals 5-8k undodgeable/ unblockable damage every 3.5 sec this can be easily outhealed by any build that's right but you don't deal damage with curse only.
I know sorcs have been nerved many times but they are still extremely strong and some small tweaks won't render them useless.

Strider_Roshin

BohnT wrote: »

Endless Fury + curse is a problem.
Fury is arguably the best execute in pvp. A skill without casttime that lasts for 4 seconds and kills the target once it hits 20%.
Normally the execute hits for about 5-7k that means you need about 28-35k health to survive a skill that is always active except you are a templar. Don't tell me you can dodge it, any good sorc will keep it up all the time and you can't dodge the whole fight.
Curse deals 5-8k undodgeable/ unblockable damage every 3.5 sec this can be easily outhealed by any build that's right but you don't deal damage with curse only.
I know sorcs have been nerved many times but they are still extremely strong and some small tweaks won't render them useless.

That's the irritating fact it's almost a guarantee kill if your curse goes off when your opponent is at half health. It's pretty cheesy IMO.

DeviousCat

First curse isn't OP, it doesn't hit for that much, and you can easily purge it off. What I have found it great for is keeping NB's from stealthing, it trolls them so bad you just have to laugh.

Fury is a decent execute and serves that role well but what it really is used for is a fairly low cost spammable to proc your frag.

Sorc's only have a handful of reliable offensive PVP class skills, those two, Encase, Mines were mentioned but the fluid nature of PVP makes static skills like mines pretty useless(great for dueling and PVE), Frags, Streak when it works is an awesome skill and Negate, which is killer in certain situations(static skill).

If a certain class is giving you trouble maybe you should roll that class and pvp a mile in it's shoes, if nothing else you will learn the classes strengths and weakness. Calling for nerf's is just lame and will be the ruin of this game.

Strider_Roshin

DeviousCat wrote: »

First curse isn't OP, it doesn't hit for that much, and you can easily purge it off. What I have found it great for is keeping NB's from stealthing, it trolls them so bad you just have to laugh.

Fury is a decent execute and serves that role well but what it really is used for is a fairly low cost spammable to proc your frag.

Sorc's only have a handful of reliable offensive PVP class skills, those two, Encase, Mines were mentioned but the fluid nature of PVP makes static skills like mines pretty useless(great for dueling and PVE), Frags, Streak when it works is an awesome skill and Negate, which is killer in certain situations(static skill).

If a certain class is giving you trouble maybe you should roll that class and pvp a mile in it's shoes, if nothing else you will learn the classes strengths and weakness. Calling for nerf's is just lame and will be the ruin of this game.

Lol yeah, and incap hits like a wet noodle, and stamblades don't have a reliable spammable. Shall I continue downplaying as well or are we going to stop pretending?

Strider_Roshin

DeviousCat wrote: »

If a certain class is giving you trouble maybe you should roll that class and pvp a mile in it's shoes, if nothing else you will learn the classes strengths and weakness. Calling for nerf's is just lame and will be the ruin of this game.

Also I have every class in the game in both Magicka, and stamina.

DeviousCat

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

DeviousCat wrote: »

If a certain class is giving you trouble maybe you should roll that class and pvp a mile in it's shoes, if nothing else you will learn the classes strengths and weakness. Calling for nerf's is just lame and will be the ruin of this game.

Also I have every class in the game in both Magicka, and stamina.

As do I.

Just recently came back to my magsorc and been having FUN with it. It's a game, relax and enjoy. One of the reasons I came back to my sorc is because of nerfs to other classes.

An example would be that poor NB who can't stealth because someone was boo hooing about the OP aspect of dark cloak removing Dots, (Zos never balances a skill, if they focus it they nerf it to the point of useless) now that poor NB has to get hammered into the harsh Cyro soil for just trying to play his class.

Another example, I have three Templars, two mag and one stam, I was playing a dedicated healer and a Dps magplar until Zos focused on Radiant Oppression, when I first started playing this game it was such an awesome execute, now it don't even warrant a slot on my bar.

Strider_Roshin

DeviousCat wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

DeviousCat wrote: »

If a certain class is giving you trouble maybe you should roll that class and pvp a mile in it's shoes, if nothing else you will learn the classes strengths and weakness. Calling for nerf's is just lame and will be the ruin of this game.

Also I have every class in the game in both Magicka, and stamina.

As do I.

Just recently came back to my magsorc and been having FUN with it. It's a game, relax and enjoy. One of the reasons I came back to my sorc is because of nerfs to other classes.

An example would be that poor NB who can't stealth because someone was boo hooing about the OP aspect of dark cloak removing Dots, (Zos never balances a skill, if they focus it they nerf it to the point of useless) now that poor NB has to get hammered into the harsh Cyro soil for just trying to play his class.

Another example, I have three Templars, two mag and one stam, I was playing a dedicated healer and a Dps magplar until Zos focused on Radiant Oppression, when I first started playing this game it was such an awesome execute, now it don't even warrant a slot on my bar.

RD is still a powerful execute, you just have to use it in execute range now lol. Also I have an Argonian magplar that's still a monster with 5 Rattle, 5 Soulshine, and 2 Skoria. Not much has changed tbh. They're still as unkillable as before lol

AshTal

I don't recall seeing either ability on any death recap I have seen in ages. However I do see Eye of the storm, bat swarm and usually a poison injection and snipe on most death recaps unless I get ganked by a NB team where its just surprise attack of all the deaths its the NB gank that hurts the most as all the others are in part my fault but a NB gank team is unstoppable.