Finally Conformed to Heavy Armor Meta and Whoa...

Valencer

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Stamicka

If you think heavy is OP thats fine you are entitled to your opinion but,

It does not have better damage than Light or Medium that's just silly and I know you never stated that but others do and is why I call them trolls.

Crit chance is very important you're underestimating that, if I wasn't impenetrable would be the meta trait in pvp reducing crit damage is very important, Thd higher your crit the more damage you deal and the more often. You heal for a good amount.Crit chance is very important

Wrath from heavy armor is great but its a reactive passive that requires you to get hit, Agility is passively always applied and applies more WD than wrath, This patch Wrath was adjusted to not be fully active quickly it takes longer to stack now although the results will be the same.

The general consensus on the forums is that dodge roll Scales the best defensively when facing multiple opponents all attacks are evaded ( if they can be evaded mind you ) from one dodge roll as opposed to blocking and Ward stacking. The armor rating from heavy is great but os easily countered by multiple sources of Physical and Spell penetration that the game provides, if Heavy armor users are reall that much of a problem to you then you can always use multiple Physical penetration abilities to counter act it.

Sneak cost reduction is just an added flavor to medium, but is great for ganking which is really effective in the game atm since it guarantees you a kill without worrying about dying.

All in all IMO Medium and Light Armors are better than Heavy, but its a fact the Both Medium and Light armour deal more damage than heavy armor.

What youre forgetting in your little analysis is that heavy armour builds don't have to invest as much into regen and can thus afford to stack more into damage, resulting in similar damage numbers compared to medium armour. People use the thief stone to compensate for the lack of crit on heavy armour, and done. If people instead stack more into sustain while wearing heavy theyll hit for less but they have unbreakable sustain.

Block >>>> dodge, because roll dodge has a penalty for spamming whereas you can pretty much hold block forever in the right heavy armour setup. Yeah, roll dodge lets you dodge projectiles for a brief period of time but block works vs everything that roll dodge works against, and more. There's also a 0.5s cooldown on hits draining your stamina while blocking so essentially you can also block multiple attacks at the same time without a very serious stamina drain..

Not nessiarly. Allow me to explain:

The benefit of both Light and Medium armor has is Cost reduction, which is exclusive to those armors, cost reduction is the most effective sustain passive in the game since you regen every 2 secs.

Heavy armor builds on average have 21% more expensive skills which forces heavy users to heavy attack more than other classes, Sustain mechanics mainly come from class abilities, like DK battle roar and Sorcs Dark conversion not based on heavy armors own merits.

Also you forgot that heavy users will have 10% less crit than their counterparts which is is huge less crit = less damage = less effective healing.

In terms of blocking similarly to dodge roll there are a plethora of skills that go right through block
- Dots
- Fears
- unblockable CCs

Unblockable CCs will force heavy users to drop block exposing them to damage same with DOTs

The block cost is about 2K stam with just SnB cost reduction it goes down to about 1300 stam and doesn't recover while up.

The cost reduction ends up being relatively insignificant because on a medium armour build I have to stack way more CP into regen whereas on a heavy build Im free to stack way more CP into cost reduction.

Difference between 5 heavy and 5 medium is about 12% cost reduction (assuming 5-1-1). On my medium armour build Im running 10% cost reduction from CP and on my heavy armour build Im running 16% cost reduction from CP. So that 12% gap in cost reduction between 5 heavy and 5 medium ends up being a lot less because I have no need for regen when focusing on heavy armour.

Again, the 10% less crit doesnt matter because on a heavy armour build I just run the thief stone which gives as much (if not more) crit.

And yes, there's a lot of skills that go through block (and some of them got super-buffed in the homestead update), but pretty much all of those go through roll dodge too. Yes, your stamina regen is 0 while blocking, but Constitution resource returns still work and all your class skills restoring stamina also work through block, and since you get extremely good magicka sustain in heavy too that plays right into that.

If they properly balanced Constitution and forced heavy armour users to actually invest into sustain like medium/light armour builds have to then that would be a lot more reasonable. At the moment the stamina+magicka returns you get from it are simply too big and require no other form of sustain investment on the rest of your gear in order to be effective.

H4RDFOX

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I agree with whoever says wrath should be changed. But who knows, change wrath and suddenly heavy would suck again. I'm not really sure what they would do to balance it out some.

ZoS should make wrath only count for physical damage. Unless I am mistaken, I believe wrath benefits from any damage, and it does not make sense if poison DoT damage enables that passive. Poison/Disease should be crippling the enemy, not boosting their damage, magic/elemental damage should also cripple the enemy. I understand CP reducing these types of damage, but it shouldn't proc wrath.

Lokey0024

Aedaryl wrote: »

Heavy armor is overpowered.

DAMAGE :

The best magicka damage set are light armor based, making it needed a little if you want to deal damage.

BUT you can take your best damage set on jewlery and weapons, so, you wan only wear 1 light armor piece and have INSANE damage.

-For stamina :

Medium armor give more damage BUT by needing a regen set, you can have same damage on heavy, because you can run full damage.

SUSTAIN

HERE is the problem !

Heavy armor give FAR more regen than other armors, on stamina, you can run 900 regen heavy armor build when you need 2k regen on a medium armor build.

There is 2 reasons :

- Consitution passive is OP
- Heavy attack ressource back is OP.

+ You gain regen on your utility stats (magicka for stamina and stamina for magicka)


DEFENSIVE SIDE :

Heavy armor give tons of resistence, more HP, more healing passively.

Medium armor have rolldoge but they need tons of regen to do it well.

Light armor don't give any defensive way to go, Shield stacking is the only thing making light armor viable..




.

Damage: light armor has better crit and raw damage output because of penetration.

Lokey0024

Valencer wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Stamicka

If you think heavy is OP thats fine you are entitled to your opinion but,

It does not have better damage than Light or Medium that's just silly and I know you never stated that but others do and is why I call them trolls.

Crit chance is very important you're underestimating that, if I wasn't impenetrable would be the meta trait in pvp reducing crit damage is very important, Thd higher your crit the more damage you deal and the more often. You heal for a good amount.Crit chance is very important

Wrath from heavy armor is great but its a reactive passive that requires you to get hit, Agility is passively always applied and applies more WD than wrath, This patch Wrath was adjusted to not be fully active quickly it takes longer to stack now although the results will be the same.

The general consensus on the forums is that dodge roll Scales the best defensively when facing multiple opponents all attacks are evaded ( if they can be evaded mind you ) from one dodge roll as opposed to blocking and Ward stacking. The armor rating from heavy is great but os easily countered by multiple sources of Physical and Spell penetration that the game provides, if Heavy armor users are reall that much of a problem to you then you can always use multiple Physical penetration abilities to counter act it.

Sneak cost reduction is just an added flavor to medium, but is great for ganking which is really effective in the game atm since it guarantees you a kill without worrying about dying.

All in all IMO Medium and Light Armors are better than Heavy, but its a fact the Both Medium and Light armour deal more damage than heavy armor.

What youre forgetting in your little analysis is that heavy armour builds don't have to invest as much into regen and can thus afford to stack more into damage, resulting in similar damage numbers compared to medium armour. People use the thief stone to compensate for the lack of crit on heavy armour, and done. If people instead stack more into sustain while wearing heavy theyll hit for less but they have unbreakable sustain.

Block >>>> dodge, because roll dodge has a penalty for spamming whereas you can pretty much hold block forever in the right heavy armour setup. Yeah, roll dodge lets you dodge projectiles for a brief period of time but block works vs everything that roll dodge works against, and more. There's also a 0.5s cooldown on hits draining your stamina while blocking so essentially you can also block multiple attacks at the same time without a very serious stamina drain..

Not nessiarly. Allow me to explain:

The benefit of both Light and Medium armor has is Cost reduction, which is exclusive to those armors, cost reduction is the most effective sustain passive in the game since you regen every 2 secs.

Heavy armor builds on average have 21% more expensive skills which forces heavy users to heavy attack more than other classes, Sustain mechanics mainly come from class abilities, like DK battle roar and Sorcs Dark conversion not based on heavy armors own merits.

Also you forgot that heavy users will have 10% less crit than their counterparts which is is huge less crit = less damage = less effective healing.

In terms of blocking similarly to dodge roll there are a plethora of skills that go right through block
- Dots
- Fears
- unblockable CCs

Unblockable CCs will force heavy users to drop block exposing them to damage same with DOTs

The block cost is about 2K stam with just SnB cost reduction it goes down to about 1300 stam and doesn't recover while up.

The cost reduction ends up being relatively insignificant because on a medium armour build I have to stack way more CP into regen whereas on a heavy build Im free to stack way more CP into cost reduction.

Difference between 5 heavy and 5 medium is about 12% cost reduction (assuming 5-1-1). On my medium armour build Im running 10% cost reduction from CP and on my heavy armour build Im running 16% cost reduction from CP. So that 12% gap in cost reduction between 5 heavy and 5 medium ends up being a lot less because I have no need for regen when focusing on heavy armour.

Again, the 10% less crit doesnt matter because on a heavy armour build I just run the thief stone which gives as much (if not more) crit.

And yes, there's a lot of skills that go through block (and some of them got super-buffed in the homestead update), but pretty much all of those go through roll dodge too. Yes, your stamina regen is 0 while blocking, but Constitution resource returns still work and all your class skills restoring stamina also work through block, and since you get extremely good magicka sustain in heavy too that plays right into that.

If they properly balanced Constitution and forced heavy armour users to actually invest into sustain like medium/light armour builds have to then that would be a lot more reasonable. At the moment the stamina+magicka returns you get from it are simply too big and require no other form of sustain investment on the rest of your gear in order to be effective.

What about the points into break free? Blocking? Tenacity? Sprint? Stealth redux? Nice theory but complete the thought all the way thru.

Aedaryl

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Lokey0024

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Heavy attack got a 50% nerf. 900 magika/stam every 4 seconds (if you get hit) is the issue? Think you need to learn how to run a med/light build if you run a sustain set with either.

Killset

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Aedaryl

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Heavy armor Stam blade is extremelly strong, only magblade need buff.

If they don't nerf heavy armor, they will never be a single one reason to go medium.

Heavy armor need a nerf on regen and medium armor a buff on survivibility something like " you gain 1k health when you dodge an attack, 1s cooldown"

Heavy armor is better damage, better resisence, better sustain, better healing. Nerf sustain so damage will be less crazy and heavy armor will bring what it should, best resistences and not best everything

Also, nerfing/fix heavy armor will nerf mdk and I shield stacking hardened + annulment need a nerf, I say it since few years.

Aedaryl

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Heavy attack got a 50% nerf. 900 magika/stam every 4 seconds (if you get hit) is the issue? Think you need to learn how to run a med/light build if you run a sustain set with either.

Heavy armor is far more than 900 every 4 seconds, don't lie, and since your regen stat is not important, you can go in the star increasing ressource gained with heavy attacks. The both mechanics are OP.

Lokey0024

Aedaryl wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Heavy attack got a 50% nerf. 900 magika/stam every 4 seconds (if you get hit) is the issue? Think you need to learn how to run a med/light build if you run a sustain set with either.

Heavy armor is far more than 900 every 4 seconds, don't lie, and since your regen stat is not important, you can go in the star increasing ressource gained with heavy attacks. The both mechanics are OP.

No. 5 1 1 or 5 2 is around 900 regen if im not mistaken.

I heard a rumor, somewhere, that you can still heavy attack in medium or light armor. Ill confirm this later. In the meantime ill be researching exactly what medium armor sustain set has no offensive stats like seducer/lich

I personally think medium armor should speed up heavy attack by 25 or 50%.

Killset

Aedaryl wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Heavy armor Stam blade is extremelly strong, only magblade need buff.

If they don't nerf heavy armor, they will never be a single one reason to go medium.

Heavy armor need a nerf on regen and medium armor a buff on survivibility something like " you gain 1k health when you dodge an attack, 1s cooldown"

Heavy armor is better damage, better resisence, better sustain, better healing. Nerf sustain so damage will be less crazy and heavy armor will bring what it should, best resistences and not best everything

Also, nerfing/fix heavy armor will nerf mdk and I shield stacking hardened + annulment need a nerf, I say it since few years.

Heavy armor is NOT better damage. Do not make up facts to support your argument. And I agree Medium needs some sort of buff to make it viable. My Nightblade is forced to run heavy out of sheer necessity since I don't gank.

Anti_Virus

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Heavy armor Stam blade is extremelly strong, only magblade need buff.

If they don't nerf heavy armor, they will never be a single one reason to go medium.

Heavy armor need a nerf on regen and medium armor a buff on survivibility something like " you gain 1k health when you dodge an attack, 1s cooldown"

Heavy armor is better damage, better resisence, better sustain, better healing. Nerf sustain so damage will be less crazy and heavy armor will bring what it should, best resistences and not best everything

Also, nerfing/fix heavy armor will nerf mdk and I shield stacking hardened + annulment need a nerf, I say it since few years.

Heavy armor is NOT better damage. Do not make up facts to support your argument. And I agree Medium needs some sort of buff to make it viable. My Nightblade is forced to run heavy out of sheer necessity since I don't gank.

Medium armor is fine it's designed around Guerilla warfare hit and run tactics, if you want to face tank 5 people wear heavy armor if you want to evade damage and deal tons of damage run medium.

People that complain about heavy armor are medium armored Players that want the tankiness of heavy but the dmg of both and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

SodanTok

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Heavy armor Stam blade is extremelly strong, only magblade need buff.

If they don't nerf heavy armor, they will never be a single one reason to go medium.

Heavy armor need a nerf on regen and medium armor a buff on survivibility something like " you gain 1k health when you dodge an attack, 1s cooldown"

Heavy armor is better damage, better resisence, better sustain, better healing. Nerf sustain so damage will be less crazy and heavy armor will bring what it should, best resistences and not best everything

Also, nerfing/fix heavy armor will nerf mdk and I shield stacking hardened + annulment need a nerf, I say it since few years.

Heavy armor is NOT better damage. Do not make up facts to support your argument. And I agree Medium needs some sort of buff to make it viable. My Nightblade is forced to run heavy out of sheer necessity since I don't gank.

Medium armor is fine it's designed around Guerilla warfare hit and run tactics, if you want to face tank 5 people wear heavy armor if you want to evade damage and deal tons of damage run medium.

People that complain about heavy armor are medium armored Players that want the tankiness of heavy but the dmg of both and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

People that complain about heavy armor are both medium armor players that dont want to switch and exmedium armor players that were forced to switch.

If by "designed around guerilla warfare" you mean play only ganking nightblade, then I agree, it definitely looks that way. But lets not pretend like medium armor gets tons of damage. 1/3 of passives are useless in combat, 1/3 are about stam sustain (which happens to be one of reason why medium armor is worse lol) and rest is crit chance and finally the weapon damage bonus that usually translates to ~300 WD.

Killset

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Heavy armor Stam blade is extremelly strong, only magblade need buff.

If they don't nerf heavy armor, they will never be a single one reason to go medium.

Heavy armor need a nerf on regen and medium armor a buff on survivibility something like " you gain 1k health when you dodge an attack, 1s cooldown"

Heavy armor is better damage, better resisence, better sustain, better healing. Nerf sustain so damage will be less crazy and heavy armor will bring what it should, best resistences and not best everything

Also, nerfing/fix heavy armor will nerf mdk and I shield stacking hardened + annulment need a nerf, I say it since few years.

Heavy armor is NOT better damage. Do not make up facts to support your argument. And I agree Medium needs some sort of buff to make it viable. My Nightblade is forced to run heavy out of sheer necessity since I don't gank.

Medium armor is fine it's designed around Guerilla warfare hit and run tactics, if you want to face tank 5 people wear heavy armor if you want to evade damage and deal tons of damage run medium.

People that complain about heavy armor are medium armored Players that want the tankiness of heavy but the dmg of both and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with Heavy armor. I think it was fine before the homestead nerf. I feel like a vast majority of the people complaining about it discovered they are going to have to work for their kills, and that is just unacceptable.

Anti_Virus

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Heavy armor Stam blade is extremelly strong, only magblade need buff.

If they don't nerf heavy armor, they will never be a single one reason to go medium.

Heavy armor need a nerf on regen and medium armor a buff on survivibility something like " you gain 1k health when you dodge an attack, 1s cooldown"

Heavy armor is better damage, better resisence, better sustain, better healing. Nerf sustain so damage will be less crazy and heavy armor will bring what it should, best resistences and not best everything

Also, nerfing/fix heavy armor will nerf mdk and I shield stacking hardened + annulment need a nerf, I say it since few years.

Heavy armor is NOT better damage. Do not make up facts to support your argument. And I agree Medium needs some sort of buff to make it viable. My Nightblade is forced to run heavy out of sheer necessity since I don't gank.

Medium armor is fine it's designed around Guerilla warfare hit and run tactics, if you want to face tank 5 people wear heavy armor if you want to evade damage and deal tons of damage run medium.

People that complain about heavy armor are medium armored Players that want the tankiness of heavy but the dmg of both and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

People that complain about heavy armor are both medium armor players that dont want to switch and exmedium armor players that were forced to switch.

If by "designed around guerilla warfare" you mean play only ganking nightblade, then I agree, it definitely looks that way. But lets not pretend like medium armor gets tons of damage. 1/3 of passives are useless in combat, 1/3 are about stam sustain (which happens to be one of reason why medium armor is worse lol) and rest is crit chance and finally the weapon damage bonus that usually translates to ~300 WD.

Agreed, Sucks that Zos wants to push NBs into ganking but that's how it is atm. Some thing needs to change for NBs to be more viable outside of ganking but nerfing heavy isn't the answer.

Anti_Virus

Killset wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Heavy armor Stam blade is extremelly strong, only magblade need buff.

If they don't nerf heavy armor, they will never be a single one reason to go medium.

Heavy armor need a nerf on regen and medium armor a buff on survivibility something like " you gain 1k health when you dodge an attack, 1s cooldown"

Heavy armor is better damage, better resisence, better sustain, better healing. Nerf sustain so damage will be less crazy and heavy armor will bring what it should, best resistences and not best everything

Also, nerfing/fix heavy armor will nerf mdk and I shield stacking hardened + annulment need a nerf, I say it since few years.

Heavy armor is NOT better damage. Do not make up facts to support your argument. And I agree Medium needs some sort of buff to make it viable. My Nightblade is forced to run heavy out of sheer necessity since I don't gank.

Medium armor is fine it's designed around Guerilla warfare hit and run tactics, if you want to face tank 5 people wear heavy armor if you want to evade damage and deal tons of damage run medium.

People that complain about heavy armor are medium armored Players that want the tankiness of heavy but the dmg of both and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with Heavy armor. I think it was fine before the homestead nerf. I feel like a vast majority of the people complaining about it discovered they are going to have to work for their kills, and that is just unacceptable.

Yeah, the nerfs didn't make to much of a difference though, but all the armors atm are balanced.

Sucks that Medium armor is Funneled into ganking though.

thankyourat

So today I got hit by a 10k wrecking blow from a stam sorc. He was in heavy armor. it's so completely balanced. Also I'm in light armor full impen with 80 points into Hardy my crit resist is just under 2500. This guy is probably hurting 16k on players who aren't in full impen. If you can wear heavy armor and hit that hard why wear anything but heavy

Anti_Virus

thankyourat wrote: »

So today I got hit by a 10k wrecking blow from a stam sorc. He was in heavy armor. it's so completely balanced. Also I'm in light armor full impen with 80 points into Hardy my crit resist is just under 2500. This guy is probably hurting 16k on players who aren't in full impen. If you can wear heavy armor and hit that hard why wear anything but heavy

Because, you get cost reduction, crit chance, sneak cost reduction, evasion+ root cleanse, Roll dodge cost reduction, sprint speed in medium and since dodge roll is a powerful defense machanic medium armor users get more use out of it with dodge chance.

Shields> Block
Dodge roll > Block

Shields = Dodge roll

As well as extra damage Medium is great for ganking or hit and run fighting styles.

Nellzer

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

@Lockey0024 If you go full damage set on medium or light, it's more damage than heavy. This concern Bomber and gank builds.

The problem is regular build go one regen and one damage set + sustain mundus stone on medium/light. In heavy armor, the sustain from consitution and heavy attack is so good that you don't even need sustain pieces. So you can go full damage and do the same damage than light and medium armor + all the bonus from heavy armor.

No one can contest that. Just look what good player run, 100% damage set and 600/900 main stat regen. Only magdk need a sustain set because they can't use the cost return from heavy attack (they run S&B).

Nerf constitution passive and heavy armor will need sustain set, this will balance their damage and make medium/light armor more appealing for non gank/bomb build damage.

Here we go again. Nerfing Heavy doesn't make Medium more appealing. It just creates two crappy armor classes instead of one. How about we nerf Sorcs and mDK's to make Nightblades more appealing lol.

Heavy armor Stam blade is extremelly strong, only magblade need buff.

If they don't nerf heavy armor, they will never be a single one reason to go medium.

Heavy armor need a nerf on regen and medium armor a buff on survivibility something like " you gain 1k health when you dodge an attack, 1s cooldown"

Heavy armor is better damage, better resisence, better sustain, better healing. Nerf sustain so damage will be less crazy and heavy armor will bring what it should, best resistences and not best everything

Also, nerfing/fix heavy armor will nerf mdk and I shield stacking hardened + annulment need a nerf, I say it since few years.

Heavy armor is NOT better damage. Do not make up facts to support your argument. And I agree Medium needs some sort of buff to make it viable. My Nightblade is forced to run heavy out of sheer necessity since I don't gank.

Medium armor is fine it's designed around Guerilla warfare hit and run tactics, if you want to face tank 5 people wear heavy armor if you want to evade damage and deal tons of damage run medium.

People that complain about heavy armor are medium armored Players that want the tankiness of heavy but the dmg of both and you can't have your cake and eat it too.

People that complain about heavy armor are both medium armor players that dont want to switch and exmedium armor players that were forced to switch.

If by "designed around guerilla warfare" you mean play only ganking nightblade, then I agree, it definitely looks that way. But lets not pretend like medium armor gets tons of damage. 1/3 of passives are useless in combat, 1/3 are about stam sustain (which happens to be one of reason why medium armor is worse lol) and rest is crit chance and finally the weapon damage bonus that usually translates to ~300 WD.

Why do people keep saying this? NBs are not forced into a ganking playstyle. Hell, Crescent just posted his newest stamblade video on this very forum wearing 5 med / 2 heavy (pretty standard), 1vXing 3-4+ 600 cp players in just about every clip. It's not ganking, stamblade has never been about ganking unless you're intentionally playing that style. It's about utilizing your speed/deception and extremely volatile burst damage to single targets out in outnumbered situations.

You can absolutely still 1vX on a stamblade wearing 5:2 med:heavy, it's just a very noob-unfriendly class/build.

Ultimate_Overlord

@Anti_Virus So you say that heavy is balanced, yet you admit that medium is "funneled into ganking". Wheres the logic?

olsborg

Heavy armor is clearly better.
Just one example, as heavy armor you can easily spec for 4-4500 wep dmg with buffs up, you can have 40-50k stamina, and make do with 6-800 stam recovery. In medium armor you have to have much, much more stamrecovery, much lower stamina and lower wep dmg. Sure you can dodge abit more, but not that much because theres dodge fatigue, but good luck killing someone with dodge. Heavy armor spec will hit harder then medium armor.

Derra

I think a lot of players are mistaking heavy armor = permablock.

Also it´s not as simply as some people would like it to be.
There is a reason why you don´t see many medium armor DKs or Sorcs. Can´t comment on templars because those you don´t see at all
There is also a reason why you don´t see light armor templars or DKs.

The main issue is in my opinion not offense but defensive capabilities lacking for medium and light armor.

Ultimate_Overlord

Heavy is better than medium for multiple reasons:
1. Classes like dk and sorc can convert magicka into stam, making constitution twice as effective. Constitution is 500 regen. For the medium armor regen passive to provide this much, you would need 1.8k stam regen without any multipliers (good *** luck getting that without your dmg being garbage)
2. Most stam players are redguards. Redguards require less stam regen than other races, reducing the effectiveness of medium armor regen passives while encouraging max stam stacking.
3. Medium armor stam cost reduction passive isnt as effective since it applies to cp cost reduction multiplicatively.
With 38k stam redguard passive gives you 450 regen, combined with another 500 from constitution, you get 1.5-1.6k stam regen (that also works while blocking), which allows you to run full dmg gear and thief mundus.
Having 1k magicka regen also helps, allowing dks and sorcs to run max stam food, while stamplars and stamblades usually use gold food or regen food.
4. Heavy armor has too many sets that give huge amounts of dmg and healing compared to medium sets (fury, ravager, 7th legion vs skirmisher, hulking and spriggan).
5. Wrath benefits from weapon dmg multipliers (brutality, class passives), while agility doesnt, meaning that usually agility gives you only <100 more weapon dmg than wrath.
6. 10% hp which is usually 2-3k hp, the hp you would have to trade 2-3k stam for as a medium build.
In the end, with all these factors combined, in an open world pvp environment (not ganking) medium armor builds make too many sacrifices, while heavy armor builds make barely any.

Anti_Virus

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

@Anti_Virus So you say that heavy is balanced, yet you admit that medium is "funneled into ganking". Wheres the logic?

It is balanced, Wearing Steel on your chest gives the most protection if you want to face tank 5 people wear heavy.

Medium =/= Heavy armor although people want to be tanky like heavy you can't its not designed to be that way. Dodge and evasion helps you survive with losts of sneak and dodgeroll passives and high damage.

Medium will not be as tanky as heavy also medium provides more sustain than heavy remember that.

Ultimate_Overlord

@Anti_Virus None of what you said answers my question. Heavy isnt balanced, other armor types dont even come close to it. Yes, i agree that you should be tanky in heavy, but you shouldnt also have crazy dmg by running all dmg sets and infinite sustain when investing nothing/barely anything into it.
No one wants to be tanky in medium, but medium should at least provide you with more dmg and/or sustain, which it doesnt, not in this meta.

Anti_Virus

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

@Anti_Virus None of what you said answers my question. Heavy isnt balanced, other armor types dont even come close to it. Yes, i agree that you should be tanky in heavy, but you shouldnt also have crazy dmg by running all dmg sets and infinite sustain when investing nothing/barely anything into it.
No one wants to be tanky in medium, but medium should at least provide you with more dmg and/or sustain, which it doesnt, not in this meta.

1. Medium does provide more damage than heavy you all need to stop trolling, if heavy somehow dealt more damage than medium I think heavy armor would be used in Dps for trials. Medium armor gives you crit chance which means more crit = more damage and more effective healing.

2. It has was more sustain again trolling, hybrid builds suck heavy gives resources to both stats which is half as effective as medium armor which reduces stam costs and gives regen to one primary stat, of you wear heavy armor you don't need to magic regen at all and constitution is half as effective as cost reduction + regen for stamina.

It clear that you want to be tanky in medium while having all the damage but in PVP dodge rolling/ evasion is superior to Blocking and heavy armors resistance.
If a zerg catches you one roll dodge will dodge all attacks if they can be dodged while blocking just mitigates dmg, the resistances from heavy are useless thanks to armor pen sets, sharpened weapons major fracture and CP armor pen.

So technically medium armor is 'tankier'than heavy if you don't get hit ( dodge rolling ) along with those juicy sustain passives to sneaking, roll dodge, cost reduction regen and crit medium armor is looking good.

If you wear medium armor you goal is to not get hit and its defense machanic is better than heavys roll dodging is really powerful pair with evasion. Sneaking is there to help you gank and hide.

Stop with this troll notion that heavy deals more damage its ridiculous, It has no crit passives that alone should tell you, 200 WD/SD compared to 12% is laughable.

Take a gold blade and multiply that by .12 I bet you it will be way higher than Wrath. then add the number to the Weapon damage tool tip and come tell me that heavy gives more weapon damage lol.

[Edit]

Heavy doesn't give infinite sustain its always class sustain machanics, Put heavy armor and use NO class sustain machanics and tell me how to sustain indefinitely when your skills are expensive as heck.

- No battle roar
- No helping hands
- No dark deal
- No Siphoning Attacks
- No repentance

Valencer

Dude, if you somehow were to run the same sets, mundus stone, CP etc in both medium and heavy then of course medium would probably win out in the damage department because it gives more crit and +% weapon damage. Noone is challenging that.

But noone who isnt insane runs a medium armour build with 0 investment into sustain (except glass cannon gankers), whereas this is very very common for heavy armour builds because constitution doesnt scale off anything except how much heavy you wear and gives you a ton of sustain for free...

And newsflash: heavy armour gives you the extremely good magicka sustain you need to spam those class skills/mechanics that help you sustain your stamina with no actual gear investment into sustain besides wearing heavy.

SodanTok

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

@Anti_Virus None of what you said answers my question. Heavy isnt balanced, other armor types dont even come close to it. Yes, i agree that you should be tanky in heavy, but you shouldnt also have crazy dmg by running all dmg sets and infinite sustain when investing nothing/barely anything into it.
No one wants to be tanky in medium, but medium should at least provide you with more dmg and/or sustain, which it doesnt, not in this meta.

1. Medium does provide more damage than heavy you all need to stop trolling, if heavy somehow dealt more damage than medium I think heavy armor would be used in Dps for trials. Medium armor gives you crit chance which means more crit = more damage and more effective healing.

2. It has was more sustain again trolling, hybrid builds suck heavy gives resources to both stats which is half as effective as medium armor which reduces stam costs and gives regen to one primary stat, of you wear heavy armor you don't need to magic regen at all and constitution is half as effective as cost reduction + regen for stamina.

It clear that you want to be tanky in medium while having all the damage but in PVP dodge rolling/ evasion is superior to Blocking and heavy armors resistance.
If a zerg catches you one roll dodge will dodge all attacks of theu can be dodged while blocking just mitigates dmg, the resistances from heavy are useless thanks to armor pen sets, sharpened weapons major fracture and CP armor pen.

So technically medium armor is 'tankier'than heavy if you don't get hit ( dodge rolling ) along with those juicy sustain passives to sneaking, roll dodge, cost reduction regen and crit medium armor is looking good.

If you wear medium armor you goal is to not get hit and its defense machanic is better than heavys roll dodging is really powerful pair with evasion. Sneaking is there to help you gank and hide.

Stop with this troll notion that heavy deals more damage its ridiculous, It has no crit passives that alone should tell you, 200 WD/SD compared to 12% is laughable.

Take a gold blade and multiply that by .12 I bet you it will be way higher than Wrath. then add the number to the Weapon damage tool tip and come tell me that heavy gives more weapon damage lol.

[Edit]

Heavy doesn't give infinite sustain its always class sustain machanics, Put heavy armor and use NO class sustain machanics and tell me how to sustain indefinitely when your skills are expensive as heck.

- No battle roar
- No helping hands
- No dark deal
- No Siphoning Attacks
- No repentance

How can you say so much of BS. Why is 200 WD somehow laughtable to 12%, 12% of 3K WD (which is probably average DMG nonganking medium armor with proper sustain achieves) is 360. Very laughtable difference indeed.
Also no crit passives, yes very relevant to PVP lol.

Dodge rolling is active defense with stacking cost during which you output no damage. Countered by many new mechanic changes. Not even technically it is tankier than heavy lol. But people dont want medium to be tanky. Going heavy, you lose less damage than you get survivability and sustain.

I ignored that part about sustain because double lol. Heavy armor does have more sustain in combat and free secondary resource is very good.
For that edit part, I cant tell if youre joking. You dont use medium armor without skill either. It could have best sustain in the game without skills and It wouldnt have mattered if you get more on heavy while using skill you have

Ultimate_Overlord

@Anti_Virus
1. No one us talking about potential or maximum dmg. Ofc medium armor can potentially reach dmg higher than heavy. But in a normal pvp build which has a decent balance of survivability and dmg heavy will always be superior.
2. Whatever you said made me lmao xD You do realize that not every passive has the value right? The fact that kust the stam portion of constitution gives more sustain than wind walker makes it incredibly op, not weak.
Ok, math time.
A generic heavy armor build has 16% in warlord and 6% from 2 piece medium.
1 * 0.94 * 0.84 = 0.7896
A generic medium build has 21% from wind walker and lets say 16% in warlord
1 * 0.79 * 0.84 = 0.6636
0.7896/0.6636 = 1.1898, so heavy has 19% more expensive skills
Constitution is 500 stam regen
500/1.1898 = 420
So constitution stam portion in heavy gives as much sustain as 420 regen in medium.
Wind walker with 7 medium is 28% stam regen.
420/28 * 100 =1500
So, in conclusion, for wind walker to provide as much sustain as stam portion of constitution you need to have 1.5k stam regen with no multipliers.
The magicka portion of constitution is just icing on the cake, not some hybrid *** you were talking about.
3. I didnt say wrath is better than agility, but i said that agility isnt much better than wrath considering the sacrifices you have to make.
4. Roll isnt as good as good consistant high resistances. Why? Cause if you roll more than 3 times in a row your stam is gone. Also, heavy armor builds have a lot of spare cp since they dont invest into regen. 12% roll cost from cp, then throw on 2 well fitted pieces and you have the same roll cost as a medium build.
And now, i will ask you to stop coming to every heavy armor thread and defending it, since you clearly dont have the numbers or experience to prove your point, you only have assumptions, feelings and troll accusations, which means nothing.

Baconlad

I have a templar skirm type build. Mainly bow damage with two hander charge and execute. It is stupid tanky. I even redid all my sets with divines because impen was worthless to me. I could jump into a 6 man group and kill one or two and still live to tell the tale.
I deff requires a different playstyle. More dodgerolling preemptively. And *** im a nord, no regen except the set pieces that happen to have them on there. Now ive recently tried playing my magplar with light armor and shields, and holy *** shields suck right now. Theres literally ZERO benefit to defense with shielding in light armor. You cant use the the active skill from light armor as an excuse to added defense as the other armors actives add to defense as well. But there are no defense oriented passives in light armor, nor are there good solid damage passives. Heavy armor is just better than light armor. I would like to see shuffle go away/ changed to not passively give a dodge chance, and id like them to revert the dodge roll mechanic back to where is was. Id like to see light armor balanced toward medium armor with passives and also slight buff to heavy damage. The armors should dictatate how you defend and how you offend. HOW YOU PLAY. Heavy armor shouldnt be a defensive armor with the other two sucking at defense. Nor should heavy armor suck at dealing damage while the other two succeed. It should be based off of you choice in playstyle.