The issues related to Epic players logging in to the North American and European PC/Mac megaservers have been resolved at this time. If you continue to experience difficulties at login, please restart your client. Thank you for your patience!
This Game is too Obsessed with Crit Damage.
GrumpyDuckling
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
The 1.6 damage multiplier makes crit builds the top builds for PVE dps and makes wearing Impen a necessity for PVP survival (shield-stackers excluded).
There is far too much focus on doing crit damage and preventing crit damage.
There is far too much focus on doing crit damage and preventing crit damage.
6
-
pretzl✭✭✭✭Yeah, no.
In end-game PvE, not a single person is running any kind of critbuild after the changes to Major/Minor Force.
Anything over 60% crit is utterly useless.
Factcheck before you post pls.CP | Chronically Capped
Characters | pretzL (Stamblade) , Brannbil (Stamplar) , Spicy pretzL (mDK) , Campingbil (MagSorc) , Saltkringla (Magplar) , Disco Dan (sDK) , Darth Salty (Mag NB) , Plebsorc (Stamsorc), pretzLeroni (Magplar), Mahoogler (pvp mDK)
Guilds | HODOR & Who Pulled
Kindling Power Magicka DK Build
twitch.tv/pretzlcsgo2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The default multiplier is 1.5 too, not 1.6. only themps and nbs can get an extra 10%, if they slot one if thir class abilities.
0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
TBS with shadow and thief will give you around 60% crit with major prophecy and the rest of the basic spell crit bonus, what are you trying to say?0 -
WhiteMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭He's still got a point though. Crit is a massive source of damage that rivals the contribution to dps of CP at the low end. A 1.5x crit damage modifier at 50% crit chance is a 25% increase to DPS. A 1.72x crit multiplier at 70% crit is a 50% increase to DPS. That is way over the top in terms of being able to balance. If I were a PvE balance activist, I would set some pretty heavy hard caps in place where there are none.
You know what? I'll just throw this out there. There's a system from another game that I thought was pretty nice. Crit, with a 1.5x multiplier had a cap at 25% but there was also a more powerful devastating crit with a 3x multiplier that was capped at 10%. The diminishing returns were such that it was impossible to hard cap these without sacrificing other stats (like the equivalent of spell/weapon damage), and the math caps the dps increase at 32.5%.
Maybe it was 2x for the devastaing though, for a 22.5% damage increase... it's been a while.Edited by WhiteMage on 24 February 2017 04:57The generally amicable yet sporadically salty magplar that may or may not have 1vXed you in Sotha Sil. Who knows?4 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Another issue is that Crit is the only DPS relevant stat next to Magicka (Spell damage) / Stamina (Weapon damage). If there would be other secondary stats that would contribute to DPS crit would lose some of it's benefits. Other games solved this issue by introducing more relevant stats like Tempo, Mastery, Crit Multiplier etc.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is an issue in PvP to some regards.
Just look how many people complain/promote impenetrable as a must have because crit damage/builds are so prevalent in PvP.
It might not be the best meta any more for top content (if as other said is true) but OP has a point that a majority of the informed playerbase see "crit builds are best" and focus on those builds.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭He's still got a point though. Crit is a massive source of damage that rivals the contribution to dps of CP at the low end. A 1.5x crit damage modifier at 50% crit chance is a 25% increase to DPS. A 1.72x crit multiplier at 70% crit is a 50% increase to DPS. That is way over the top in terms of being able to balance. If I were a PvE balance activist, I would set some pretty heavy hard caps in place where there are none.
You know what? I'll just throw this out there. There's a system from another game that I thought was pretty nice. Crit, with a 1.5x multiplier had a cap at 25% but there was also a more powerful devastating crit with a 3x multiplier that was capped at 10%. The diminishing returns were such that it was impossible to hard cap these without sacrificing other stats (like the equivalent of spell/weapon damage), and the math caps the dps increase at 32.5%.
Maybe it was 2x for the devastaing though, for a 22.5% damage increase... it's been a while.
Yeah, there are other options how to handle crit. A basic damage increase is pretty boring IMO.
Personally I liked the system in another MMO, where critical hits ignored defense and always did maximum damage (usually damage had a variance, which could be reduced with a specific stat). Probably not easily transferable to ESO, but this might also make precise more interesting, so you can increase your chance to ignore all defense with a critical hit, or ignore a bit of defense with all your attacks with sharpened.
Regardless, I wish crit wasn't that mandatory for DPS, and we could have more viable builds. I mean, it's no accident that everyone uses the Thief mundus.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well imo its part of a broader issue and @WhiteMage mage touches on it with the comment about the few factors applying to DPS.
basically there are four numbers - crit, damage, stat and pen that all combine into the majoeity of the damage dealt equation. All four of these are for-the-most-part esp in pve self-centered. While tactics and maneuveres vs mechanics may vary in some cases tied to specific limited set-piece mechanics the basic "top builds" all focus on an inward looking focus on these stats and so forth.
IMO what should play a much bigger role is "your enemy" and "your target." in most combat and warfare that is as big or bigger than your own inward and it varies a great deal between opponents and except for staying out of stupid and some set-piece mechanics this game loses that.
Way too much of your own output is universal imo. it applies almost anywhere, every time, no matter what.
So IMo if there were a lot more target specific bonuses and some broader limitations on universla damage it would be much more dynamically balanced from fight to fight.
Keep the universal boosts at more limited ranges.
Say crit damage is 1.25% overall but then give plenty of "but vs this type" or "in this circumstance" doublings to that like say "inferno staves vs cold based creatures and undead" or "mace and mauls vs heavy armor and stone/bone targets" etc.
A series of lower caps on base universal applies everywhere type increases would serve to create a much greater sense of builds and skills and rotations being more "the right tool for the current job" decisions than just "the best build."
This could even go to being a part of skills/spells. maybe "breach" from assasinations line reapers mark applies an "open to crit vs XXX" along with a general resist debuff while breach from weakness to elements applies "open to crit vs YYY" and so forth and so those set different "this kind of attack can reach crit of 1.5 damage instead of 1.25 damage" etc.
but right now it seems a lot more inward focused on your four numbers and less on almost anything to do with your enemy as far as "builds" goes.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."2 -
xboxNA corin6✭✭✭I'd love for an mmo to finally throw away crit chance. It's one rng fest that people don't realize how often chance goes against them or benefits them. I've often thought of many system to remove crit with a more skillfull approach, like ramping damage. Hit target with 3 successful hits, 4th hit becomes critical. Raising said skil eventually improves, 2 hits, 1 crit. Damage becomes expected and less rng.I'm a magsorc1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
This is the meta from previous updates. This setup is no longer optimal for endgame PvE.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
Autolycus✭✭✭✭✭
✭timidobserver wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
This is the meta from previous updates. This setup is no longer optimal for endgame PvE.
Yep. Everyone is deconstructing their gold TBS gear and has moved on to BSW and TFS now, for the most part. There are some other strong builds that use different sets, but they aren't TBS.0 -
EldritchPenguin✭✭✭✭✭
Sounds a bit like Pseudorandom Number Generator (PRNG). The chance of landing a critical hit starts out low, but gradually increases every time you land a non-crit until you manage to land a crit, after which the chance resets. The increases are set up so that the average is normalized to your crit chance, so sustained DPS is virtually unchanged, but crits happen at much more regular intervals (and less regularly at the start of a gank, making them harder to pull off).xboxNA corin6 wrote: »I'd love for an mmo to finally throw away crit chance. It's one rng fest that people don't realize how often chance goes against them or benefits them. I've often thought of many system to remove crit with a more skillfull approach, like ramping damage. Hit target with 3 successful hits, 4th hit becomes critical. Raising said skil eventually improves, 2 hits, 1 crit. Damage becomes expected and less rng.Lilelle Adlis - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Vaynothah Sailenar - Dark Elf Templar
Sherivah Telvanni - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Nephiah Telvanni - Dark Elf Nightblade0 -
xboxNA corin6✭✭✭EldritchPenguin wrote: »
Sounds a bit like Pseudorandom Number Generator (PRNG). The chance of landing a critical hit starts out low, but gradually increases every time you land a non-crit until you manage to land a crit, after which the chance resets. The increases are set up so that the average is normalized to your crit chance, so sustained DPS is virtually unchanged, but crits happen at much more regular intervals (and less regularly at the start of a gank, making them harder to pull off).xboxNA corin6 wrote: »I'd love for an mmo to finally throw away crit chance. It's one rng fest that people don't realize how often chance goes against them or benefits them. I've often thought of many system to remove crit with a more skillfull approach, like ramping damage. Hit target with 3 successful hits, 4th hit becomes critical. Raising said skil eventually improves, 2 hits, 1 crit. Damage becomes expected and less rng.
Not exactly what I was describing, but this idea sounds even better so gank builds aren't completely out the question. Then again you could just give stealth a 100% crit chance like it already is for nightblades.I'm a magsorc0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Like Uriel said, the people pushing DPS to its limits are no longer wearing TBS and are not using the Shadow Mundus boon. They are using the Thief and are in most likely hood using Burning Spell Weave. So the only things that they would have to push Crit damage is Major and Minor Force, some class passives if at all and then some points into CP for it, but considering they are all now using 75p into Thaumaturge to get the off balance bonus as well as the DoT damage increase. Which means they are not using all that many points into Elfborn. So we are talking about an increase in Crit Damage from a 1.5 multiplier to maybe one that is around 1.95 or 1.85 depending on class. Its not all that much really. Another thing is that pushing crit chance is not that big of a thing any more, pushing crit chance over base damage is not the way, a good example of that is how people are parsing higher with Moondancer than they are with Aether. Aethers 2p being spell crit and moondancers 2p being max magicka. So yea there really isn't a problem in PvE at least about pushing Crit Damage.
Even in PvP, people choose Impen and not all run it. Some do. But hey you can get protection elsewhere, it all depends on how you build it and how much damage you are wanting to sacrifice. High Damage, low survivability or Lower damage, high survivability. Obviously there is a middle ground and some builds that can offer you the best of both worlds but thats what theorycrafting and build making is all about. Pushing the limits of what can be done. But again I see no problem with the current state of crit damage nor crit resistance.1
