The Dwemer

UrQuan

Abeille wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The most common theory is Kagrenac's experiments with the Heart of Lorkhan.

The heart had been ripped out of Lorkhan's chest by Trinimac, and Auriel shot it with his bow. It crash landed right into Vvardenfell where it formed a volcano around itself: the Red Tower, with the heart being the Zero stone.

The Dwemer that settled in the region found the Heart, and their Chief Tonal Architect Kagrenac created a set of tools to manipulate the Heart: Keening, Sunder and Wraithguard. Kagrenac believed that the Heart could be used to have his entire race ascend to godhood, which is why the Dwemer constructed the Brass Tower: Numidium.

And although they were allies and had joined the Dunmer in the First Council, the Dunmer commander Nerevar disagreed with this and led his forces against the Dwemer to take the Heart away from them in the Battle of Red Mountain. Kagrenac decided to go through with his plan to ascend and used the tools on the heart...

... and the Dwemer mysteriously disappeared. Vanished without a trace...

Well... Technically there's one left. He's at the corpusarium, and you definitely DON'T want to go there.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Yagrum_Bagarn

He should be healthy during this time in the timeline since Corprus isn't a thing yet.
Can you imagine if, in Vvardenfell, we are summoned by the Tribunal and when we enter the room Yagrum is casually finishing a conversation with Sotha Sil? My squeaks would be legendary.

I thought in this time Dagoth Ur and the sixth house was just rising. Since the Tribunal hasnt been able to get to the volcano to refresh their powers...

If so, then How long until the corpus disease starts?

Dagoth Ur is only supposed to awake in a little over 300 years, no?

I don't know what is keeping the Tribunal from doing their ritual but afaik it shouldn't be Dagoth Ur, not yet.

I think they're just lazy. They'd rather sleep in than do their ritual. Can you really blame them?

I can imagine Vivec floating horizontally with cucumber slices on his eyes while Almalexia admires herself in a mirror, and then Sotha Sil reminds them of the ritual and they call him a nerd and tell him to go tinker with his toys.

That's probably how it went down.

Exactly!

Enodoc

Abeille wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The most common theory is Kagrenac's experiments with the Heart of Lorkhan.

The heart had been ripped out of Lorkhan's chest by Trinimac, and Auriel shot it with his bow. It crash landed right into Vvardenfell where it formed a volcano around itself: the Red Tower, with the heart being the Zero stone.

The Dwemer that settled in the region found the Heart, and their Chief Tonal Architect Kagrenac created a set of tools to manipulate the Heart: Keening, Sunder and Wraithguard. Kagrenac believed that the Heart could be used to have his entire race ascend to godhood, which is why the Dwemer constructed the Brass Tower: Numidium.

And although they were allies and had joined the Dunmer in the First Council, the Dunmer commander Nerevar disagreed with this and led his forces against the Dwemer to take the Heart away from them in the Battle of Red Mountain. Kagrenac decided to go through with his plan to ascend and used the tools on the heart...

... and the Dwemer mysteriously disappeared. Vanished without a trace...

Well... Technically there's one left. He's at the corpusarium, and you definitely DON'T want to go there.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Yagrum_Bagarn

He should be healthy during this time in the timeline since Corprus isn't a thing yet.
Can you imagine if, in Vvardenfell, we are summoned by the Tribunal and when we enter the room Yagrum is casually finishing a conversation with Sotha Sil? My squeaks would be legendary.

I thought in this time Dagoth Ur and the sixth house was just rising. Since the Tribunal hasnt been able to get to the volcano to refresh their powers...

If so, then How long until the corpus disease starts?

Dagoth Ur is only supposed to awake in a little over 300 years, no?

I don't know what is keeping the Tribunal from doing their ritual but afaik it shouldn't be Dagoth Ur, not yet.

Indeed. Dagoth Ur's alarm is scheduled for 2E882
There must be some other issue preventing the Tribunal from doing their ritual, as it certainly shouldn't be Dagoth Ur. Maybe something happened in the Dwemer citadels, or maybe the Daedra have been getting involved.

Waffennacht

So before the creation of nirn...

There was Sithis ? The great nothing?

Is that where these gods (such as Lork) hanging out pre nirn?

Im just confused on the creation/existence of nirn/sithis and the gods, and then the mortals...

And what about the other planes?

I know planes can be created (the realm you entire in skyrim to free that vamp lady and get the dragon buddy) they state that plane was created.

What's this CHIM? Aka, you go up a tower, look at the universe, if you keep yourself, you become a "god" and can change the world of nirn? What about the daedra and other planes?

Why did Talos stick around? Where did he go? How did Lork keep his consciousness as a ghost when he lost himself?

And if the dwemer did keep themselves wouldn't they be gods? Also how could one dwemer stick around if they all reached CHIM or even failed it?

Questions!

Abeille

Enodoc wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The most common theory is Kagrenac's experiments with the Heart of Lorkhan.

The heart had been ripped out of Lorkhan's chest by Trinimac, and Auriel shot it with his bow. It crash landed right into Vvardenfell where it formed a volcano around itself: the Red Tower, with the heart being the Zero stone.

The Dwemer that settled in the region found the Heart, and their Chief Tonal Architect Kagrenac created a set of tools to manipulate the Heart: Keening, Sunder and Wraithguard. Kagrenac believed that the Heart could be used to have his entire race ascend to godhood, which is why the Dwemer constructed the Brass Tower: Numidium.

And although they were allies and had joined the Dunmer in the First Council, the Dunmer commander Nerevar disagreed with this and led his forces against the Dwemer to take the Heart away from them in the Battle of Red Mountain. Kagrenac decided to go through with his plan to ascend and used the tools on the heart...

... and the Dwemer mysteriously disappeared. Vanished without a trace...

Well... Technically there's one left. He's at the corpusarium, and you definitely DON'T want to go there.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Yagrum_Bagarn

He should be healthy during this time in the timeline since Corprus isn't a thing yet.
Can you imagine if, in Vvardenfell, we are summoned by the Tribunal and when we enter the room Yagrum is casually finishing a conversation with Sotha Sil? My squeaks would be legendary.

I thought in this time Dagoth Ur and the sixth house was just rising. Since the Tribunal hasnt been able to get to the volcano to refresh their powers...

If so, then How long until the corpus disease starts?

Dagoth Ur is only supposed to awake in a little over 300 years, no?

I don't know what is keeping the Tribunal from doing their ritual but afaik it shouldn't be Dagoth Ur, not yet.

Indeed. Dagoth Ur's alarm is scheduled for 2E882
There must be some other issue preventing the Tribunal from doing their ritual, as it certainly shouldn't be Dagoth Ur. Maybe something happened in the Dwemer citadels, or maybe the Daedra have been getting involved.

Varen spoke of a "great betrayal". What if the three Daedric Princes he mentioned are after the Heart of Lorkhan?

Surely can't be just Molag Bal hiding in the Red Mountain and making Vivec avoid going there because of their bad break-up.

geonsocal

wait a minute now???...I thought the dwemer were short "dwarf" looking folks- are you all saying they were in fact a medium height, slender race of people...

UrQuan

Waffennacht wrote: »

Also how could one dwemer stick around if they all reached CHIM or even failed it?

This one's easy. Whatever happened to the other dwemer, he wasn't there at the time. He was exploring another plane, so it didn't end up affecting him.

The rest of your questions simply don't have any easy answers. They're pretty mysterious.

geonsocal wrote: »

wait a minute now???...I thought the dwemer were short "dwarf" looking folks- are you all saying they were in fact a medium height, slender race of people...

Nope! The Dwemer are also known as the Dwarves, but they were about the same physical stature as Altmer. There's a theory that they were given the name "dwarves" by the giants of the Velothi Mountains.

geonsocal

UrQuan wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

wait a minute now???...I thought the dwemer were short "dwarf" looking folks- are you all saying they were in fact a medium height, slender race of people...

Nope! The Dwemer are also known as the Dwarves, but they were about the same physical stature as Altmer. There's a theory that they were given the name "dwarves" by the giants of the Velothi Mountains.

holy cow - for the last 5 years i've been convinced that the dwemer looked exactly like this (both men and women ):



now i come to find out they looked more like like this:



today truly is full of surprises...

Ir0nB34r

Is there an official source for all this lore? I would like to read up on it. The Wikis I find are more game focused.

Waffennacht

Didn't the chimer (fallen?) Lose their eye sight whwn they lived under ground with the dwemer? As like a payment for entry? But no ones what drove them crazy?

Seemed like the nords kicked chimer butt and they needed dwemer help right?

Tryxus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Didn't the chimer (fallen?) Lose their eye sight whwn they lived under ground with the dwemer? As like a payment for entry? But no ones what drove them crazy?

Seemed like the nords kicked chimer butt and they needed dwemer help right?

Falmer, not Chimer. The Chimer were changed into the Dunmer by Azura when the Tribunal used the Heart of Lorkhan to turn themselves into gods

Number_51

Waffennacht wrote: »

Didn't the chimer (fallen?) Lose their eye sight whwn they lived under ground with the dwemer? As like a payment for entry? But no ones what drove them crazy?

Seemed like the nords kicked chimer butt and they needed dwemer help right?

Chimer were proto-Dunmer (can be reasonably assumed they looked a lot like Almalexia). You're thinking of Falmer I believe.

Found this (credit to FrenchTheLlama on reddit) which is pretty cool. Not sure about accuracy but seems OK at first glance:

Lava_Croft

I think this is the most definitive explanation for what happened to the Dwemer.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius

Follow up the above with http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1402722-dwemer-speculation/page-4?p=21387707

UrQuan

geonsocal wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

wait a minute now???...I thought the dwemer were short "dwarf" looking folks- are you all saying they were in fact a medium height, slender race of people...

Nope! The Dwemer are also known as the Dwarves, but they were about the same physical stature as Altmer. There's a theory that they were given the name "dwarves" by the giants of the Velothi Mountains.

holy cow - for the last 5 years i've been convinced that the dwemer looked exactly like this (both men and women ):



now i come to find out they looked more like like this:



today truly is full of surprises...

More like this:

That's probably the best indication we have of what dwemer really looked like. That's a dwemer ghost from Morrowind (possibly one of the expansions).

Here's some concept art too:


You may notice that the faces of many dwemer automatons look very much like stylized representations of dwemer faces and beards:

Enodoc

Waffennacht wrote: »

So before the creation of nirn...

There was Sithis ? The great nothing?

Is that where these gods (such as Lork) hanging out pre nirn?

Im just confused on the creation/existence of nirn/sithis and the gods, and then the mortals...

I had a pretty good go at explaining this somewhere else...

Enodoc wrote: »

In the Beginning, the brothers Anu and Padomay, the primal forces of Stasis and Change, Light and Dark, Order and Chaos, came into the Void. Their interplay created Nir, the personification of the Aurbis (the Universe). Concurrently, Anu begat his soul and the soul of all things, Anuiel, that he might know himself, while Padomay begat Sithis, the personification of the Void.

Nir loved Anu, and Padomay retreated in bitterness. Padomay later returned, professed his love to Nir, and beat her when she told him that she loved only Anu. Nir later gave birth to the Twelve Worlds of Creation, but died from her injuries soon after. Padomay hated Creation, and shattered it; Anu then fought Padomay, and won, and attempted to save Creation by reforming it into one world - the Grey Maybe (which would become Mundus). As he was doing so, Padomay struck him through the chest with one last blow. Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever. Presently, Anuiel begat Auriel/Akatosh and Sithis begat Lorkhan/Shor, and the Dawn Era of Time began.

Beyond that, you might like to look at the Dawn Era timeline.

Waffennacht wrote: »

And what about the other planes?

I know planes can be created (the realm you entire in skyrim to free that vamp lady and get the dragon buddy) they state that plane was created.

Plane(t)s are created or formed from parts of the et'Ada. The Aedric Planets were formed when the Aedra gave of themselves during Creation; by giving up a bit of themselves, the Aedra never again had the full power they once wielded. The Daedric Planes, on the other hand, are still "part of" the Daedra who lord over them, meaning they still retain their full power. For this to make some sort of sense, you have to consider the et'Ada more as "forces" than "beings".

Waffennacht wrote: »

What's this CHIM? Aka, you go up a tower, look at the universe, if you keep yourself, you become a "god" and can change the world of nirn? What about the daedra and other planes?

CHIM can be explained through the Psijic Endeavor.

Enodoc wrote: »

The purpose of the Psijic Endeavor is to transcend the mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. But if you can only see your place in the world as some part of a divine construct, you realise that you are part of a divine totality, and your individuality dissolves - that is the Zero-Sum. To avoid this occurring, you need to be able to avoid Zero-Sum and retain the concept of individuality, to still say that you are one (1) in the universe, and still be able to say "I". This is the Secret of the Tower. Learning the Secret of the Tower is to achieve CHIM, and is the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor.

Lorkhan was the first to achieve CHIM, by moving outside of the Wheel and viewing it from the side, as a Wheel from the side is a Tower, and a Tower is in the shape of an "I".

Ir0nB34r wrote: »

Is there an official source for all this lore? I would like to read up on it. The Wikis I find are more game focused.

UESP has a dedicated Lore section, presented like an encyclopedia, which is not game-focused. There's also the Imperial Library.


Edit: Typos

geonsocal

too many folks on this thread to thank - seriously super enlightening...i'm a very visual person so the images and the chart help me a bunch to put the pieces together...

stopped reading all the lore books a month or two into this game, read em all in skyrim/oblivion, but i've forgotten a lot...I'll definitely check out some of the links above to read more on the lore...

to you all:



Edit: this kinda stuff and these type threads are definitely what is best about our community...

Abeille

By the way, not wanting to cause any fuss here, but... Anyone else believes that the Harmonic Auditor in Rkindaleft is Dwemer? No? Just me? Okay

We are never able to call him an "Altmer" or "High Elf", despite his model. Just an "Elven mage".
It seems that he had been there for a very long time, all dressed in Dwemer robes, speaking of Tonal animus tuning, and he is hooked up to that huge machine. Maybe he replaced so much of himself with machines that he got to a point where he wasn't himself anymore, and wasn't affected by the disappearance of the Dwemer.
Do I have any hard proof? Eh... No. But I want to believe!

Publius_Scipio

Solus

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Probably going to get in trouble for this. yolo



fml >.>

WhiteCoatSyndrome

While we're on the subject, while we know the Dwemer as a race vanished, what happened to any crossbreeds they produced? I'd assume they'd have been left behind unless they had that psychic link previously mentioned...

UrQuan wrote: »

More like this:

That's probably the best indication we have of what dwemer really looked like. That's a dwemer ghost from Morrowind (possibly one of the expansions).

Expansion (specifically Tribunal). His name is Radac.

Publius_Scipio

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

While we're on the subject, while we know the Dwemer as a race vanished, what happened to any crossbreeds they produced? I'd assume they'd have been left behind unless they had that psychic link previously mentioned...

UrQuan wrote: »

More like this:

That's probably the best indication we have of what dwemer really looked like. That's a dwemer ghost from Morrowind (possibly one of the expansions).

Expansion (specifically Tribunal). His name is Radac.

Didn't the dwemer see themselves as high and mighty, above the other races? This could be a potential recipe for no breeding outside their own race. In fact, I'd bet they were extremely prude.

runagate

Khajiit shouldn't be under Mer in that chart.

Also, oddly, despite my obsession with Akaviri races and Lilmothiit I genuinely don't know if Imga are extinct in the era of ESO.

I keep looking for hints of a Tower that the other continents' races may have made in their lands.

Savos_Saren

nimander99 wrote: »

They realized that Nirn was a dream and woke up, causing them to disappear from existence. Look up CHIM and you'll understand.

I'm still waiting for this to happen to my dayjob.

Waffennacht

Ok so first thing is I noticed.

The Hist and Sithis actually have nothing to do with each other. Where Nir created 12 worlds (Nir is some kind of spawn of Padomay and Anu), the Hist was in one of them, Padomay dude (stasis?) Crushes them, Anu (change?) Puts sweeps em into a pile called Nirn, but like only the Hist and some what will be mer? Survive and live on nirn.

Ok so then the bros take each other out of time (they outta here) Sithis and Anuiel (whom apparently were just chillin in the back while Padomay, Nir, and Anu were doing some soap opera love triangle things. Well they come out of hiding as all children do after mom and dad stop fighting.)

They spawn Lork and another, Lork is like "I want these things that ill call mortals, and like they'll suck at first but if they self reflect enough they can become better than us" and he convinces a ton of spirits (apparently also just chillin with Sithis this whole time) to help... so they do that and he's their god...

But these mortals hate Lork and their existence and pwn Lork, then comes like the solidifying of the world and then the Gods like Dagon?

And battery almost dead... drat bbl

TX12001rwb17_ESO

BTW in case you didn't know Dwemer who were Undead didn't get effected, their are Dwemer Spectres in Morrowind, one who even has a conversation with you about reforging Trueflame, Hard to believe though that there were no Dunmer Lichs or Vampires out there or maybe there are but they are so degraded or unrecognizable that they don't identify as such no longer.

People who want Dwemer in the game, techcnally if they are undead they still exist.

Knootewoot

geonsocal wrote: »

Great, great thread...

I could read this stuff all day...thank you OP for getting it kicked off - and, big thanks to everyone whom contributed...

Yeah thanks a lot. Now you made me wanna play both Daggerfall and Morrowind again. Time to install them.

Enodoc

Abeille wrote: »

By the way, not wanting to cause any fuss here, but... Anyone else believes that the Harmonic Auditor in Rkindaleft is Dwemer? No? Just me? Okay

Not just you, I though that too. There's no reason that Yagrum Bagarn was the only Dwemer in the Outer Realms when the rest of them disappeared.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

While we're on the subject, while we know the Dwemer as a race vanished, what happened to any crossbreeds they produced? I'd assume they'd have been left behind unless they had that psychic link previously mentioned...

Common lore interpretation states that crossbreeds don't exist. Children are 100% the same race as the mother.

runagate wrote: »

Khajiit shouldn't be under Mer in that chart.

It's closer than almost anything else. Before the Earthbones solidified the laws of nature, the children of Nirn who lived in the forest did not know their forms. According to Ahnissi, Azura took some of the forest people and made them Khajiit, and then Y'ffre took the others and made them Bosmer. While the Khajiit may have been made before the War of the Ehlnofey, they're definitely on the mer side of the Ehlnofic schism, not the man side, which is most evident by the form of the Ohmes and Ohmes-raht.

runagate wrote: »

Also, oddly, despite my obsession with Akaviri races and Lilmothiit I genuinely don't know if Imga are extinct in the era of ESO.

They're still about in theory, as they're mentioned in PGE1 (2E 864) using present tense. I believe the retcon for their non-appearance in ESO is that they've "gone to visit Falinesti".

I keep looking for hints of a Tower that the other continents' races may have made in their lands.

Kirkbridian lore suggests the Orichalc Tower, which has been speculated to be a Tower on Yokuda. Then there's the Coral Tower and the Pillar of Thras, but it's not known whether they were actually intended to be Towers, and if so, whether they were metaphysically sound, or failed constructs like the Tower at Erokii. Finoriell mentions a "high sea-tower" on Pyandonea, but that could be any old tower, and not actually a Tower. Beyond that, I don't know of any more Towers, but I also don't know of any more Elven races who could have built them.

ArrerBoy

TheSeer wrote: »

So even if they all tried to achieve CHIM the only two scenerios would play out

1. They succeed, but become bound as one as a side effect.
2. They failed to keep their individuality and were effectively erased.

The latter is most likely however in this case.

I subscribe more to the Kirkbride theory that they became one with Numidium. The god they wanted to ascend the dream, that was supposed to be their vessel instead becomes their prison, trapping them on Nirn for the rest of the kalpa.

Solus

Knootewoot wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

Great, great thread...

I could read this stuff all day...thank you OP for getting it kicked off - and, big thanks to everyone whom contributed...

Yeah thanks a lot. Now you made me wanna play both Daggerfall and Morrowind again. Time to install them.

I played Morrowind last night haha.

Daishichi

I have always found this lore intriguing, and hoped that some future DLC (Clockwork City) would explore it at some point...but that brings up one of the more baffling choices made in designing ESO: to set it in the past. I don't know every ES title, but aren't we playing centuries before any other storyline? We might learn some kind of secret or explore an unrelated plane of reality, but it seems firm that we will never see the Dwemer return (to be the most obvious expansion of playable races).

Tryxus

Daishichi wrote: »

I have always found this lore intriguing, and hoped that some future DLC (Clockwork City) would explore it at some point...but that brings up one of the more baffling choices made in designing ESO: to set it in the past. I don't know every ES title, but aren't we playing centuries before any other storyline? We might learn some kind of secret or explore an unrelated plane of reality, but it seems firm that we will never see the Dwemer return (to be the most obvious expansion of playable races).

800-ish years before Morrowind/Oblivion, 1000 before Skyrim