Vigor Changes

Kas

DDuke wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

I quite literally can't believe there are stamina players here trying to justify stamina heals not breaking stealth.

News flash, all heals break stealth, except stamina heals.

Heals breaking stealth is one thing & I don't necessarily disagree with that since it can be easily abused (e.g. someone sits in stealth & spam heals at allies), but when you consider that Vigor has a 10m radius (15m with the other morph no one uses) you should be able to piece together that it's impossible to make that idea work in practice.

Regardless, heals breaking or not breaking stealth is one thing and heals (apart from Rally) breaking cloak is another.

As a magicka NB, you can cast Dampen Magic while cloaked without it breaking cloak - as it should be.

Same with Vigor, you should be able to cast it while cloaked without it breaking cloak - there's absolutely no reason why not. You can still cast Rally while cloaked (as if the skill & 2H in general weren't FOTM enough before).

Kas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well done @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel ...

You fixed some outstanding issues with cloak, only to remove all that made it fun to play with in PvP.

Cloak->Vigor? Nope, breaks cloak now.

Cloak->Ambush+SA stun combo? Nope, Ambush breaks cloak now too.


How out of touch are you with your playerbase? Why remove things that absolutely no one complained about?

Practically almost every cloak combo that added depth to the NB gameplay has been gutted & ruined by these "changes", while many have been asking for more stealth elements & more depth to the gameplay in general.


I entered Cyrodiil for the first time in months with my NB, excited to test out the actual fixes to Cloak - only to find out it's more useless than ever.

Well done indeed.


I expect some kind of an answer from @Wrobel why he thought these changes were necessary.

As another part of the player base, i welcome these changes. I see how they are frustrating because you still have to play well as a NB to benefit from cloak, however, giving one class the possibility to outplay all others (assuming close-to-perfect play on all sides) would be problematic. Playing against a good player with cloak is already infuriating and has been despite the bugs ever since detect pots stopped lasting for ages.

I don't want to talk about balance in general, counters, or whatever. I just want to point out that the cloak skill's very design is bound to cause frustration. Either by the NB or by the ones playing against the NB. If playing perfectly on a NB would allow you to play a perfect game of hit and run, being elusive, etc, playing against it would be a TERRIBLE way to spend your time gaming and tbh I'd rather be at work than spending my evenings like that

I am sure your frustrations with cloak don't come from the combo potential the skill has, but rather the invisibility aspect & people escaping with it & being 100% undetectable (something I happen to agree with, it's frustrating and I made a thread about it a long time ago)

I'd say 99.99999% of NB population in Cyrodiil don't even know half the cool things you can do with cloak - that's why you don't see more posts about this gigantic dumbing down of the NB class.


Whatever the case, cloak is going to be just as annoying as before for you, while now also being unsatisfying & boring escape only tool for people like me.


Somehow ZOS has managed to *** off or disappoint everyone and somehow I find it surprising.

Yeah, i agree. it's the escape + undetectable part that causes so much frustration. Not only for full getaways but also as a way to mitigate an immense amount of the damage I miss out on doing. Once NBs (stam or mag) reach a certain level of magicka regen, a fight is certain not to be fun anymore - no matter the final winner. It's just annoying.

I'd be fine with allowing every combo but making subsequent cloaks impossible (maybe with an increased cloak duration so that you can still bridge some distance for an attack, but with a BIG cooldown on it. however, i don't think many NB's would be happy with such changes and neither is ZOS a fan of cooldowns.

KisoValley

KenaPKK wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Vigor healing should be nerfed by 25-50% compared to what it is now. Stamina builds already have the best evasion/defense with shuffle and dodgeroll, while also having the best burst damage on top of healing better than every magicka spec in the game except magicka templar? Balance my ass xD

Before you cry about healingward, I rather have vigor (which would be as strong as it is on stam builds atm) on my magblade than healingward.

Forest. Trees. Vigor. Stacking healing buffs. Who cares about details anyway? You'd fit right in with ZOS' trend of ignoring details and implementing reckless, sweeping changes.

Diss Kas again bro I dare you.

Hi Kas buddy

genjutsu_kami

stamblades live and die on stealth buffs before engagement.... literally. but this new change is good, now you have to selectively stealth for good plays and not for survivability

genjutsu_kami

ku5h wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The change to Vigor's functionality is intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Vigor will now remove you from sneak or invisibility when cast, and we've updated the Live patch notes to reflect this change.

The high-pitched audio sound that you're hearing is not intended, though, and we're currently investigating that issue.

This only shows how out of touch you guys are with your own game. You took the squishiest class out there and thought to yourselfs, hmmm how can we make it even more squishy. Good job! Again making changes that are totaly random and damn right wrong, but when ppl dirrect you to a real problems, you just ignore it. Just terrible at balancing the game.

night blades are not squishy

Ragnaroek93

Wow... instead of nerfing the instakills out of the stealth they nerf again all nightblades who do more than ganking around. There is absolute no reason to nerf a class, that is far away from being the top PvP class.

DDuke

Mauz wrote: »

Casting Vigor does break Cloak but the tick doesn't. Just Vigor->Cloak->Rally instead of Cloak->Vigor-Rally. If you are in stealth you are at full health anyway most of the cases. There are some things you can't do anymore, ok, but it's not such a big nerf for NB.

Now wonder you think these cloak changes aren't a big nerf to NB - you play with 2H

These changes ruined DW/Bow & DW/DW stamblade.

Without Rally or any other instant heal, you rely on cloak to avoid certain death and you can't count on having Vigor up 24/7, sometimes you take damage and you need to cloak immediately (not a big problem for Rally users, you can just insta heal up).

Another change that ruined DW/Bow & DW/DW stamblade is your own Ambush now breaking your cloak, meaning that combos such as:

Cloak->Ambush->Surprise Attack (stun+burst)
&
Cloak->Ambush to someone->Cloak (mobility/escape)

No longer work.


We are talking about a gigantic nerf to the NB class here for anyone not using 2H & Rally/Crit Rush (as if those weren't fotm enough before).

Honestly, I'd rather take the old bugged cloak that broke from someone breathing in your direction than this new gutted & useless version.

juhasman

Solariken wrote: »

Casting Vigor SHOULD take you out of stealth IMO, it's an AoE heal. I hope it was an intentional change.

Can't comment on the sound yet as the patch is still downloading for me.

Agree. Healing while You're invisilbe is stupid. Especially when You can spam skill granting invisibility same like skill giving healing and while You're invisible also have 9% more wep/spell dmg which makes Your healing even stronger. That gives too much control over fight. Only reason why it's not a game breaking problem in ESO are cloack bugs which kicks players out of cloak when it shouldnt

Berenhir

I main a magicka nightblade. I am seriously disturbed by the lack of humility some fellow (stam-)nbs show in this thread. Most issues you speak of here are not nerfs to your playstyle but fixes for broken mechanics you deliberately exploited to the point where you didnt even recognize you were abusing.

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Anti_Virus

Lol this change will make stam NBs even more annoying as it will push us to become gankers

DDuke

Berenhir wrote: »

I main a magicka nightblade. I am seriously disturbed by the lack of humility some fellow (stam-)nbs show in this thread. Most issues you speak of here are not nerfs to your playstyle but fixes for broken mechanics you deliberately exploited to the point where you didnt even recognize you were abusing.

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Sigh... this is a prime example why freedom of speech isn't always a good thing.

Let's go through your points (if you can call them that) one by one.

Berenhir wrote: »

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Why would it be considered an exploit if this game had combos you can make from stealth? Many other MMOs swap your skill bar entirely when you go into stealth & you have multiple skills specifically meant to be used out of stealth. This is what makes the "rogue" or "assassin" class fun to play (entirely subjective of course) in the first place.

No one has complained about being able to use Ambush & stay cloaked. No one. Please find one post of someone complaining about it. I am fairly sure it was intentionally made so that you can ambush while cloaked, as a way to create some more depth to the gameplay. It has worked that way since the beta of this game.

I don't know about 2H "unpurgable permasnares" & "triple stuns", but obviously those are not in line with other, similar skills & you can tell they're bugged and not functioning as intended (people actually complain about these on the forums).

Berenhir wrote: »

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

If you don't understand the comparison, you must be really ***.

Dampen Magic is a skill that keeps you alive on a magicka build. Vigor is a skill that keeps you alive on a stamina build. Staying alive without either of those is not possible.

Very simple.

As for it not healing, you can easily spam Dampen Magic or Healing Ward while your heal over times fill your health bar. That's how magicka builds work.

Berenhir wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

Yes, you get somewhere around +40% crit chance from Shadowy Disguise - that's why it's the better morph. Doesn't help you if you're dead before you can cloak though (since you have to Vigor before it).

Also, even while cloaked you won't heal as much as the tankier classes with Major Mending.

Next.

Berenhir wrote: »

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Well no, obviously you don't want to use Incap as DBOS is better, and if you do an ulti rotation you don't use Surprise Attack, you DBOS so it gets the Major Empower & then Surprise Attack.

That still works just the same as before by the way - it's only the normal non-ulti combos that got gutted & made DW/DW and DW/Bow NB unplayable since you lack potential outside ganking.

Berenhir wrote: »

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Oh, it must be easy to talk as a magicka NB, whom none of these changes affect in any way.


Here's some unwelcome side effects of these *** cloak changes:

• Even more FOTM Rally Crit Rush NBs
• DW/DW & DW/Bow NBs will build more and more towards instagibbing people, since that's the only thing they can do.

Ragnaroek93

DDuke wrote: »

We are talking about a gigantic nerf to the NB class here for anyone not using 2H & Rally/Crit Rush (as if those weren't fotm enough before).

It also hits 2hand builds hard, not only dw + dw or dw + bow builds. This nerf is just ridiculous, because nightblade already wasn't great (unless we talk about stomping noobs). Other classes got no nerfs at all while being much stronger than nightblade.

Mayrael

Its a fair change. There is no magica heal or aoe skill that doesnt break stealth so why stamina aoe heal shouldnt? Hmmm any arguments? Because what? Youre squishy? Its because you choose to be so. You want more tankieness? Scrifice some of your dps to achieve that as everyone elsle have to. Be fair as you will recive what you give.

Anti_Virus

DDuke wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

I main a magicka nightblade. I am seriously disturbed by the lack of humility some fellow (stam-)nbs show in this thread. Most issues you speak of here are not nerfs to your playstyle but fixes for broken mechanics you deliberately exploited to the point where you didnt even recognize you were abusing.

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Sigh... this is a prime example why freedom of speech isn't always a good thing.

Let's go through your points (if you can call them that) one by one.

Berenhir wrote: »

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Why would it be considered an exploit if this game had combos you can make from stealth? Many other MMOs swap your skill bar entirely when you go into stealth & you have multiple skills specifically meant to be used out of stealth. This is what makes the "rogue" or "assassin" class fun to play (entirely subjective of course) in the first place.

No one has complained about being able to use Ambush & stay cloaked. No one. Please find one post of someone complaining about it. I am fairly sure it was intentionally made so that you can ambush while cloaked, as a way to create some more depth to the gameplay. It has worked that way since the beta of this game.

I don't know about 2H "unpurgable permasnares" & "triple stuns", but obviously those are not in line with other, similar skills & you can tell they're bugged and not functioning as intended (people actually complain about these on the forums).

Berenhir wrote: »

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

If you don't understand the comparison, you must be really ***.

Dampen Magic is a skill that keeps you alive on a magicka build. Vigor is a skill that keeps you alive on a stamina build. Staying alive without either of those is not possible.

Very simple.

As for it not healing, you can easily spam Dampen Magic or Healing Ward while your heal over times fill your health bar. That's how magicka builds work.

Berenhir wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

Yes, you get somewhere around +40% crit chance from Shadowy Disguise - that's why it's the better morph. Doesn't help you if you're dead before you can cloak though (since you have to Vigor before it).

Also, even while cloaked you won't heal as much as the tankier classes with Major Mending.

Next.

Berenhir wrote: »

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Well no, obviously you don't want to use Incap as DBOS is better, and if you do an ulti rotation you don't use Surprise Attack, you DBOS so it gets the Major Empower & then Surprise Attack.

That still works just the same as before by the way - it's only the normal non-ulti combos that got gutted & made DW/DW and DW/Bow NB unplayable since you lack potential outside ganking.

Berenhir wrote: »

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Oh, it must be easy to talk as a magicka NB, whom none of these changes affect in any way.


Here's some unwelcome side effects of these *** cloak changes:

• Even more FOTM Rally Crit Rush NBs
• DW/DW & DW/Bow NBs will build more and more towards instagibbing people, since that's the only thing they can do.

This. I love playing DW/Bow NBs but now its has terrible survivability since the only heal that I relied on was vigor.

Berenhir

DDuke wrote: »

Sigh... this is a prime example why freedom of speech isn't always a good thing.

So deep in your heart you want the government to stop me from posting my opinion on skill mechanics on this forum?
Wow, I feel really sorry that my post triggered this confession as it disqualifies you on a very personal level. But I don't know where you're from so maybe thats how things are dealt with in your home country.

Whatever. I now understand your comparison between vigor and anullment as defensive mechanism. But as you are a stam build you should compare a shield to block & dodgerolling which is the far superior combo as you can just dodge roll 90% of all magicka attacks while healing up, something we cannot do as our shields only save us from one and a half attacks when focused. Hint: Vigor > Dodge > Cloak is far more reliable than Cloak > Vigor.

I still think the fix of not being able to hit someone with ambush and stay in stealth is really good, even if not asked for in dedicated nerf threads by the community. It's at least balancing stam nb a bit.

Mayrael

Anti_Virus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

I main a magicka nightblade. I am seriously disturbed by the lack of humility some fellow (stam-)nbs show in this thread. Most issues you speak of here are not nerfs to your playstyle but fixes for broken mechanics you deliberately exploited to the point where you didnt even recognize you were abusing.

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Sigh... this is a prime example why freedom of speech isn't always a good thing.

Let's go through your points (if you can call them that) one by one.

Berenhir wrote: »

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Why would it be considered an exploit if this game had combos you can make from stealth? Many other MMOs swap your skill bar entirely when you go into stealth & you have multiple skills specifically meant to be used out of stealth. This is what makes the "rogue" or "assassin" class fun to play (entirely subjective of course) in the first place.

No one has complained about being able to use Ambush & stay cloaked. No one. Please find one post of someone complaining about it. I am fairly sure it was intentionally made so that you can ambush while cloaked, as a way to create some more depth to the gameplay. It has worked that way since the beta of this game.

I don't know about 2H "unpurgable permasnares" & "triple stuns", but obviously those are not in line with other, similar skills & you can tell they're bugged and not functioning as intended (people actually complain about these on the forums).

Berenhir wrote: »

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

If you don't understand the comparison, you must be really ***.

Dampen Magic is a skill that keeps you alive on a magicka build. Vigor is a skill that keeps you alive on a stamina build. Staying alive without either of those is not possible.

Very simple.

As for it not healing, you can easily spam Dampen Magic or Healing Ward while your heal over times fill your health bar. That's how magicka builds work.

Berenhir wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

Yes, you get somewhere around +40% crit chance from Shadowy Disguise - that's why it's the better morph. Doesn't help you if you're dead before you can cloak though (since you have to Vigor before it).

Also, even while cloaked you won't heal as much as the tankier classes with Major Mending.

Next.

Berenhir wrote: »

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Well no, obviously you don't want to use Incap as DBOS is better, and if you do an ulti rotation you don't use Surprise Attack, you DBOS so it gets the Major Empower & then Surprise Attack.

That still works just the same as before by the way - it's only the normal non-ulti combos that got gutted & made DW/DW and DW/Bow NB unplayable since you lack potential outside ganking.

Berenhir wrote: »

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Oh, it must be easy to talk as a magicka NB, whom none of these changes affect in any way.


Here's some unwelcome side effects of these *** cloak changes:

• Even more FOTM Rally Crit Rush NBs
• DW/DW & DW/Bow NBs will build more and more towards instagibbing people, since that's the only thing they can do.

This. I love playing DW/Bow NBs but now its has terrible survivability since the only heal that I relied on way vigor.

Lol, you sound like they would decreased strenght of vigor or even totaly took away the skill... Its still there, still does what it used to do, all you need to do is change a bit skill rotation, ADAPT. Stop the drama, it cant be even considered as nerf but fix of broken mechanics.

Anti_Virus

Mayrael wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

I main a magicka nightblade. I am seriously disturbed by the lack of humility some fellow (stam-)nbs show in this thread. Most issues you speak of here are not nerfs to your playstyle but fixes for broken mechanics you deliberately exploited to the point where you didnt even recognize you were abusing.

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Sigh... this is a prime example why freedom of speech isn't always a good thing.

Let's go through your points (if you can call them that) one by one.

Berenhir wrote: »

First: Cloak should always break with any ability cast on a target affecting its ressource pool in any way. Everything else i myself consider exploiting of broken game mechanics, much like using 2h gap closer unpurgable permasnare, dizzying swing tripplestun or keep jumping nowadays.

Why would it be considered an exploit if this game had combos you can make from stealth? Many other MMOs swap your skill bar entirely when you go into stealth & you have multiple skills specifically meant to be used out of stealth. This is what makes the "rogue" or "assassin" class fun to play (entirely subjective of course) in the first place.

No one has complained about being able to use Ambush & stay cloaked. No one. Please find one post of someone complaining about it. I am fairly sure it was intentionally made so that you can ambush while cloaked, as a way to create some more depth to the gameplay. It has worked that way since the beta of this game.

I don't know about 2H "unpurgable permasnares" & "triple stuns", but obviously those are not in line with other, similar skills & you can tell they're bugged and not functioning as intended (people actually complain about these on the forums).

Berenhir wrote: »

Everything else is plain stupid. Actually the only thing that shouldnt break cloak are buffs or debuffs and running hots or dots. I wouldnt mind if annulment couldnt be casted in stealth if the dot supression from cloak would work. Btw neither of its morphs does heal, so i dont understand the comparison.

If you don't understand the comparison, you must be really ***.

Dampen Magic is a skill that keeps you alive on a magicka build. Vigor is a skill that keeps you alive on a stamina build. Staying alive without either of those is not possible.

Very simple.

As for it not healing, you can easily spam Dampen Magic or Healing Ward while your heal over times fill your health bar. That's how magicka builds work.

Berenhir wrote: »

Shadowy Disguise lets every tick of any casted HoT or DoT crit during the whole duration. So when you Vigor -> Cloak, you basically increase vigors tooltip by 60% while your rally/blood craze and poison injection is buffed by the same amount. You may lose the first tick, but thats nothing compared to be untargetable (if working correctly) with a perma 100% crit on all self healing and DoT effects for 3 seconds.

Yes, you get somewhere around +40% crit chance from Shadowy Disguise - that's why it's the better morph. Doesn't help you if you're dead before you can cloak though (since you have to Vigor before it).

Also, even while cloaked you won't heal as much as the tankier classes with Major Mending.

Next.

Berenhir wrote: »

You really complain ZOS fixed the sick idea of being able to:

1. Become and stay invisible/untargetable (shadowy disguise) with 100% crit chance + at least 10% crit damage increase for
2. a gap closing high damage attack (ambush) that empowers your
3. surprise attack which has even higher damage, stuns for over 4 seconds and decreases resistance for 16 seconds to prepare your break-free-animation-locked target for
4. incap that increases damage by 20% for 6 seconds while afflicting major defile?

Well no, obviously you don't want to use Incap as DBOS is better, and if you do an ulti rotation you don't use Surprise Attack, you DBOS so it gets the Major Empower & then Surprise Attack.

That still works just the same as before by the way - it's only the normal non-ulti combos that got gutted & made DW/DW and DW/Bow NB unplayable since you lack potential outside ganking.

Berenhir wrote: »

Your complaints are laughed out of court by the Committee of Magblades and Magicka Using Classes.

Oh, it must be easy to talk as a magicka NB, whom none of these changes affect in any way.


Here's some unwelcome side effects of these *** cloak changes:

• Even more FOTM Rally Crit Rush NBs
• DW/DW & DW/Bow NBs will build more and more towards instagibbing people, since that's the only thing they can do.

This. I love playing DW/Bow NBs but now its has terrible survivability since the only heal that I relied on way vigor.

Lol, you sound like they would decreased strenght of vigor or even totaly took away the skill... Its still there, still does what it used to do, all you need to do is change a bit skill rotation, ADAPT. Stop the drama, it cant be even considered as nerf but fix of broken mechanics.

They can do whatever they want with vigor its now less effective without a 2h.

Oh and I already "adapted" expect to see more gankerblades especially from me 12K stealth snipes FTW!

CapuchinSeven

ku5h wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

I quite literally can't believe there are stamina players here trying to justify stamina heals not breaking stealth.

News flash, all heals break stealth, except stamina heals.

You have no idea what you'r talking about. NB was like the worst stam class for PvP in DB, with this change its just total garbage. If you think otherwise just go and duel some other competent stam classes, belive me you wont survive more then 10 sec, that is when your stamina runs out from chaining dodge rolls, since from now on its NBs only defensive mechanic.

My line was, "all heals break stealth, except stamina heals". That's factual and correct.

Nothing you've said has anything to do with what you quoted.

What the hell is it with these forums where one person says one factual remark and then someone else replies with their own little rant that has nothing to do with what's just been said.

You're literally claiming stamina builds should be able to sit in stealth and spam a GROUP heal and you claim ZOS don't know what they are doing. Comical.

If magic heals break Mageblade stealth, then Vigor should break Stamblade stealth. Deal with it.

leepalmer95

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

CapuchinSeven

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

DDuke

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Sandman929

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

If magic heals break Mageblade stealth, then Vigor should break Stamblade stealth. Deal with it.

Yep

Lava_Croft

StamBlades are starting to sound like those poor, defenseless Templars.

CapuchinSeven

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Ugh, it's called being able to read between the lines dude, every human should be capable of doing it.
If you don't want whatever your magic heal is to break stealth you cast it before your stealth. Vigor is now in line with every magic heal in the game and stamina builds still have a heal that can be used in stealth.

DDuke

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Ugh, it's called being able to read between the lines dude, every human should be capable of doing it.
If you don't want whatever your magic heal is to break stealth you cast it before your stealth. Vigor is now in line with every magic heal in the game and stamina builds still have a heal that can be used in stealth.

It's not in line with Rally, which makes the FOTM 2H all the more FOTM.

Also, I don't think you're accounting the fact that Vigor lasts for 5 seconds and won't be up 24/7, where as something like Funnel Health is up 24/7 as you use the skill for offense as well.

Nor does the strongest dmg shield in game Dampen Magic break cloak either.

Sandman929

DDuke wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Ugh, it's called being able to read between the lines dude, every human should be capable of doing it.
If you don't want whatever your magic heal is to break stealth you cast it before your stealth. Vigor is now in line with every magic heal in the game and stamina builds still have a heal that can be used in stealth.

It's not in line with Rally, which makes the FOTM 2H all the more FOTM.

Also, I don't think you're accounting the fact that Vigor lasts for 5 seconds and won't be up 24/7, where as something like Funnel Health is up 24/7 as you use the skill for offense as well.

Nor does the strongest dmg shield in game Dampen Magic break cloak either.

It's a good point about Rally, but Funnel Health breaks stealth, on the attack anyway, as it should.

DDuke

Sandman929 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Ugh, it's called being able to read between the lines dude, every human should be capable of doing it.
If you don't want whatever your magic heal is to break stealth you cast it before your stealth. Vigor is now in line with every magic heal in the game and stamina builds still have a heal that can be used in stealth.

It's not in line with Rally, which makes the FOTM 2H all the more FOTM.

Also, I don't think you're accounting the fact that Vigor lasts for 5 seconds and won't be up 24/7, where as something like Funnel Health is up 24/7 as you use the skill for offense as well.

Nor does the strongest dmg shield in game Dampen Magic break cloak either.

It's a good point about Rally, but Funnel Health breaks stealth, on the attack anyway, as it should.

Of course, but what I'm saying is that the heal over time from Funnel Health is pretty much always active on you when you cloak, as you're using it as primary offensive skill as well.

Vigor on the other hand is not always up as it has only 5 second duration & it's not something you spam or deal damage with.

leepalmer95

DDuke wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Ugh, it's called being able to read between the lines dude, every human should be capable of doing it.
If you don't want whatever your magic heal is to break stealth you cast it before your stealth. Vigor is now in line with every magic heal in the game and stamina builds still have a heal that can be used in stealth.

It's not in line with Rally, which makes the FOTM 2H all the more FOTM.

Also, I don't think you're accounting the fact that Vigor lasts for 5 seconds and won't be up 24/7, where as something like Funnel Health is up 24/7 as you use the skill for offense as well.

Nor does the strongest dmg shield in game Dampen Magic break cloak either.

It's a good point about Rally, but Funnel Health breaks stealth, on the attack anyway, as it should.

Of course, but what I'm saying is that the heal over time from Funnel Health is pretty much always active on you when you cloak, as you're using it as primary offensive skill as well.

Vigor on the other hand is not always up as it has only 5 second duration & it's not something you spam or deal damage with.

Pretty sure every stamina build first instinct is to cancel a vigor into a dodge roll when they take big dmg.

Seems for some nb's spamming cloak seems to be the way, over dependence on cloak?

DDuke

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Ugh, it's called being able to read between the lines dude, every human should be capable of doing it.
If you don't want whatever your magic heal is to break stealth you cast it before your stealth. Vigor is now in line with every magic heal in the game and stamina builds still have a heal that can be used in stealth.

It's not in line with Rally, which makes the FOTM 2H all the more FOTM.

Also, I don't think you're accounting the fact that Vigor lasts for 5 seconds and won't be up 24/7, where as something like Funnel Health is up 24/7 as you use the skill for offense as well.

Nor does the strongest dmg shield in game Dampen Magic break cloak either.

It's a good point about Rally, but Funnel Health breaks stealth, on the attack anyway, as it should.

Of course, but what I'm saying is that the heal over time from Funnel Health is pretty much always active on you when you cloak, as you're using it as primary offensive skill as well.

Vigor on the other hand is not always up as it has only 5 second duration & it's not something you spam or deal damage with.

Pretty sure every stamina build first instinct is to cancel a vigor into a dodge roll when they take big dmg.

Seems for some nb's spamming cloak seems to be the way, over dependence on cloak?

So we've come to the point where every stamina build is supposed to be spamming Vigor & roll dodge, is that it?

That's the reason I barely log in to the game anymore, these cloak changes have ruined stamblade PvP for me & playing magplar is boring.

Besides, that roll dodge spam may work when you have Rally to heal back up when you're taking too much DoT dmg or jesus beams, but it doesn't work on a DW/DW or DW/Bow NB

Anti_Virus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Ugh, it's called being able to read between the lines dude, every human should be capable of doing it.
If you don't want whatever your magic heal is to break stealth you cast it before your stealth. Vigor is now in line with every magic heal in the game and stamina builds still have a heal that can be used in stealth.

It's not in line with Rally, which makes the FOTM 2H all the more FOTM.

Also, I don't think you're accounting the fact that Vigor lasts for 5 seconds and won't be up 24/7, where as something like Funnel Health is up 24/7 as you use the skill for offense as well.

Nor does the strongest dmg shield in game Dampen Magic break cloak either.

It's a good point about Rally, but Funnel Health breaks stealth, on the attack anyway, as it should.

Of course, but what I'm saying is that the heal over time from Funnel Health is pretty much always active on you when you cloak, as you're using it as primary offensive skill as well.

Vigor on the other hand is not always up as it has only 5 second duration & it's not something you spam or deal damage with.

Pretty sure every stamina build first instinct is to cancel a vigor into a dodge roll when they take big dmg.

Seems for some nb's spamming cloak seems to be the way, over dependence on cloak?

Shadowy Disguise makes every vigor tick crit, its like NBs major mending buff except it crits our heals instead of increasing it, also avoids dmg for 3 secs

Anti_Virus

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

When you've just taken a ton of damage & any incoming DoT tick or attack can kill you, your first instinct isn't to hit Vigor - you need to avoid the damage entirely (cloak) or get killed. That's how a DW/DW & DW/Bow NB operates, you don't have Rally to save your arse in those situations.

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it that hard to cast vigor before cloaking? Or am i missing something?

You're not missing anything, it's what every magblade has to do.

I didn't know magicka NBs use Vigor before cloaking, that's a very interesting build you got there.

Ugh, it's called being able to read between the lines dude, every human should be capable of doing it.
If you don't want whatever your magic heal is to break stealth you cast it before your stealth. Vigor is now in line with every magic heal in the game and stamina builds still have a heal that can be used in stealth.

It's not in line with Rally, which makes the FOTM 2H all the more FOTM.

Also, I don't think you're accounting the fact that Vigor lasts for 5 seconds and won't be up 24/7, where as something like Funnel Health is up 24/7 as you use the skill for offense as well.

Nor does the strongest dmg shield in game Dampen Magic break cloak either.

It's a good point about Rally, but Funnel Health breaks stealth, on the attack anyway, as it should.

Of course, but what I'm saying is that the heal over time from Funnel Health is pretty much always active on you when you cloak, as you're using it as primary offensive skill as well.

Vigor on the other hand is not always up as it has only 5 second duration & it's not something you spam or deal damage with.

Pretty sure every stamina build first instinct is to cancel a vigor into a dodge roll when they take big dmg.

Seems for some nb's spamming cloak seems to be the way, over dependence on cloak?

So we've come to the point where every stamina build is supposed to be spamming Vigor & roll dodge, is that it?

That's the reason I barely log in to the game anymore, these cloak changes have ruined stamblade PvP for me & playing magplar is boring.

Besides, that roll dodge spam may work when you have Rally to heal back up when you're taking too much DoT dmg or jesus beams, but it doesn't work on a DW/DW or DW/Bow NB

Zos wants every stam build to literally run 2h and bow shuffle blood spawn kena builds. Lul