Vigor Changes

Strider_Roshin

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So vigor takes you out of stealth but every other healing spell in the game can still be used stealthed...... well looks like magicka users whining is starting to get to the devs.

Which healing spell doesn't break stealth?

Healing ward, blessing of resto, mutagen, healing springs, breath of life, sorcs Dark deal, all breaks stealth. Except rally for some reason.

Beneficial spells that affect someone other than yourself break stealth. Self buffs don't break stealth. Rally, Evasion, Surge, Double Take, etc are all self-only.

Dark Deal is self-only, but it has a cast time, so it breaks stealth at the end of the cast like all cast-time spells.

Hurricane is self only, but pulses AE damage, so casting it breaks stealth. Quick cloak and DK armor probably reveal you for the same reason.

Hardened Ward affects your pets, so it's flagged to break stealth even if you have no pets. Which I had always hated

*disclaimer: Just posting the "rules" as I see them.

Key words right there. After you initially cast it, you can go into stealth; which is stupid.

sneakymitchell

WIth all this

Master_Kas wrote: »

Vigor healing should be nerfed by 25-50% compared to what it is now. Stamina builds already have the best evasion/defense with shuffle and dodgeroll, while also having the best burst damage on top of healing better than every magicka spec in the game except magicka templar? Balance my ass xD

Before you cry about healingward, I rather have vigor (which would be as strong as it is on stam builds atm) on my magblade than healingward.

Should balance the CP more of it. It's not vigor or healing ward. It's the damn CP in which its unbalanced cause you can heal so over the amount you have with the CP.

Vaoh

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So vigor takes you out of stealth but every other healing spell in the game can still be used stealthed...... well looks like magicka users whining is starting to get to the devs.

Ignorance is bliss. Smh

Toc de Malsvi

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Casting Vigor SHOULD take you out of stealth IMO, it's an AoE heal. I hope it was an intentional change.

Can't comment on the sound yet as the patch is still downloading for me.

I can rationalize that. However, spiked armor should also break stealth IMO.

Why? Shuffle doesn't break stealth, or immovable, or harness, or double take, which all give similar buffs to spiked armor...

You burst out spikes, and do AoE damage. That's why.

Not quite.

Spiked Armor and Hardened Armor do not do AoE damage. They only damage if struck by melee attacks.

Volatile Armor does AoE damage, I couldn't tell you for sure if it breaks out of stealth as I never use it.

KenaPKK

Master_Kas wrote: »

Vigor healing should be nerfed by 25-50% compared to what it is now. Stamina builds already have the best evasion/defense with shuffle and dodgeroll, while also having the best burst damage on top of healing better than every magicka spec in the game except magicka templar? Balance my ass xD

Before you cry about healingward, I rather have vigor (which would be as strong as it is on stam builds atm) on my magblade than healingward.

Forest. Trees. Vigor. Stacking healing buffs. Who cares about details anyway? You'd fit right in with ZOS' trend of ignoring details and implementing reckless, sweeping changes.

zuto40

Master_Kas wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Vigor healing should be nerfed by 25-50% compared to what it is now. Stamina builds already have the best evasion/defense with shuffle and dodgeroll, while also having the best burst damage on top of healing better than every magicka spec in the game except magicka templar? Balance my ass xD

Before you cry about healingward, I rather have vigor (which would be as strong as it is on stam builds atm) on my magblade than healingward.

I hope you're never placed in a position where you have to make decisions. Your judgement is terrible.

Let me guess, you play a shuffeling stam build?

Btw I hope the same for you if you don't think stam builds are overtuned atm.

Ah wait aren't you the one who claimed MagDK and MagNB are better than StamDK/StamNB atm? No need to send you a serious reply then.

I've played magic and stamblade, my magic has much better healing, and overall does better I seriously hope your a super troll and not serious

zuto40

I'd be ok with vigor breaking cloak if almost every dot in the game didn't break it too

CapuchinSeven

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So vigor takes you out of stealth but every other healing spell in the game can still be used stealthed...... well looks like magicka users whining is starting to get to the devs.

Which healing ability, OTHER than the stamina heals doesn't break stealth?

I eagerly await your reply.

Strider_Roshin

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So vigor takes you out of stealth but every other healing spell in the game can still be used stealthed...... well looks like magicka users whining is starting to get to the devs.

Which healing ability, OTHER than the stamina heals doesn't break stealth?

I eagerly await your reply.

I think vigor breaking cloak was a wise change; however, I think this should be the case with all heals including healing ward.

DDuke

Well done @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel ...

You fixed some outstanding issues with cloak, only to remove all that made it fun to play with in PvP.

Cloak->Vigor? Nope, breaks cloak now.

Cloak->Ambush+SA stun combo? Nope, Ambush breaks cloak now too.


How out of touch are you with your playerbase? Why remove things that absolutely no one complained about?

Practically almost every cloak combo that added depth to the NB gameplay has been gutted & ruined by these "changes", while many have been asking for more stealth elements & more depth to the gameplay in general.


I entered Cyrodiil for the first time in months with my NB, excited to test out the actual fixes to Cloak - only to find out it's more useless than ever.

Well done indeed.


I expect some kind of an answer from @Wrobel why he thought these changes were necessary.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

I expect some kind of an answer from @Wrobel why he thought these changes were necessary.

Hahahahahahahaha. Good luck with that. At best you get a few sentences in a sticky thread and he's done for good.

Master_Kas

KenaPKK wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Vigor healing should be nerfed by 25-50% compared to what it is now. Stamina builds already have the best evasion/defense with shuffle and dodgeroll, while also having the best burst damage on top of healing better than every magicka spec in the game except magicka templar? Balance my ass xD

Before you cry about healingward, I rather have vigor (which would be as strong as it is on stam builds atm) on my magblade than healingward.

Forest. Trees. Vigor. Stacking healing buffs. Who cares about details anyway? You'd fit right in with ZOS' trend of ignoring details and implementing reckless, sweeping changes.

So you think stamina builds atm are not overtuned aswell?

They do have everything I posted.

mb10

well considering thats stam NB's MAIN heal and there isnt anything else thats pretty harsh as they do tend to have lower health and resistance.

Very harsh imo its a heal thats over 5 seconds you cant throw stam NBs in the same boat and DKs, Templars and Sorcs as their sustain is about 20x better.

Bdawwg

Anything that affects other players should take you out of stealth, ridiculous that some people think they can walk around in stealth spamming AoE heals? Area of effect!
As for taking you out of cloak that is a change we shall have to observe to see how 'game breaking' and detrimental it is to the poor stam night blade.

DDuke

Bdawwg wrote: »

Anything that affects other players should take you out of stealth, ridiculous that some people think they can walk around in stealth spamming AoE heals? Area of effect!
As for taking you out of cloak that is a change we shall have to observe to see how 'game breaking' and detrimental it is to the poor stam night blade.

If you heal others with it as well, yes - I agree.

If you heal yourself only, I see no reason why this needs to function different to Rally.


And while Vigor breaking Cloak is a huge nerf to stamina Nightblades, it's not even the biggest nerf.

The biggest nerf is Ambush breaking Cloak - which means you can no longer use it for stun combos and you can no longer use it for escaping.

Just as they finally fixed the cloak skill, the versatility & uses it offered have been gutted and it's barely worth slotting. Unacceptable.

No one complained about those combos & how fun they made Nightblade as a class, but they decided to remove that function anyway. Why couldn't they just fix the damn skill without nerfing it to the ground?

CapuchinSeven

I quite literally can't believe there are stamina players here trying to justify stamina heals not breaking stealth.

News flash, all heals break stealth, except stamina heals.

Kas

DDuke wrote: »

Well done @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel ...

You fixed some outstanding issues with cloak, only to remove all that made it fun to play with in PvP.

Cloak->Vigor? Nope, breaks cloak now.

Cloak->Ambush+SA stun combo? Nope, Ambush breaks cloak now too.


How out of touch are you with your playerbase? Why remove things that absolutely no one complained about?

Practically almost every cloak combo that added depth to the NB gameplay has been gutted & ruined by these "changes", while many have been asking for more stealth elements & more depth to the gameplay in general.


I entered Cyrodiil for the first time in months with my NB, excited to test out the actual fixes to Cloak - only to find out it's more useless than ever.

Well done indeed.


I expect some kind of an answer from @Wrobel why he thought these changes were necessary.

As another part of the player base, i welcome these changes. I see how they are frustrating because you still have to play well as a NB to benefit from cloak, however, giving one class the possibility to outplay all others (assuming close-to-perfect play on all sides) would be problematic. Playing against a good player with cloak is already infuriating and has been despite the bugs ever since detect pots stopped lasting for ages.

I don't want to talk about balance in general, counters, or whatever. I just want to point out that the cloak skill's very design is bound to cause frustration. Either by the NB or by the ones playing against the NB. If playing perfectly on a NB would allow you to play a perfect game of hit and run, being elusive, etc, playing against it would be a TERRIBLE way to spend your time gaming and tbh I'd rather be at work than spending my evenings like that

Kas

whoops, hit quote instead of edit

DDuke

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

I quite literally can't believe there are stamina players here trying to justify stamina heals not breaking stealth.

News flash, all heals break stealth, except stamina heals.

Heals breaking stealth is one thing & I don't necessarily disagree with that since it can be easily abused (e.g. someone sits in stealth & spam heals at allies), but when you consider that Vigor has a 10m radius (15m with the other morph no one uses) you should be able to piece together that it's impossible to make that idea work in practice.

Regardless, heals breaking or not breaking stealth is one thing and heals (apart from Rally) breaking cloak is another.

As a magicka NB, you can cast Dampen Magic while cloaked without it breaking cloak - as it should be.

Same with Vigor, you should be able to cast it while cloaked without it breaking cloak - there's absolutely no reason why not. You can still cast Rally while cloaked (as if the skill & 2H in general weren't FOTM enough before).

Kas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well done @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel ...

You fixed some outstanding issues with cloak, only to remove all that made it fun to play with in PvP.

Cloak->Vigor? Nope, breaks cloak now.

Cloak->Ambush+SA stun combo? Nope, Ambush breaks cloak now too.


How out of touch are you with your playerbase? Why remove things that absolutely no one complained about?

Practically almost every cloak combo that added depth to the NB gameplay has been gutted & ruined by these "changes", while many have been asking for more stealth elements & more depth to the gameplay in general.


I entered Cyrodiil for the first time in months with my NB, excited to test out the actual fixes to Cloak - only to find out it's more useless than ever.

Well done indeed.


I expect some kind of an answer from @Wrobel why he thought these changes were necessary.

As another part of the player base, i welcome these changes. I see how they are frustrating because you still have to play well as a NB to benefit from cloak, however, giving one class the possibility to outplay all others (assuming close-to-perfect play on all sides) would be problematic. Playing against a good player with cloak is already infuriating and has been despite the bugs ever since detect pots stopped lasting for ages.

I don't want to talk about balance in general, counters, or whatever. I just want to point out that the cloak skill's very design is bound to cause frustration. Either by the NB or by the ones playing against the NB. If playing perfectly on a NB would allow you to play a perfect game of hit and run, being elusive, etc, playing against it would be a TERRIBLE way to spend your time gaming and tbh I'd rather be at work than spending my evenings like that

I am sure your frustrations with cloak don't come from the combo potential the skill has, but rather the invisibility aspect & people escaping with it & being 100% undetectable (something I happen to agree with, it's frustrating and I made a thread about it a long time ago)

I'd say 99.99999% of NB population in Cyrodiil don't even know half the cool things you can do with cloak - that's why you don't see more posts about this gigantic dumbing down of the NB class.


Whatever the case, cloak is going to be just as annoying as before for you, while now also being unsatisfying & boring escape only tool for people like me.


Somehow ZOS has managed to *** off or disappoint everyone and somehow I find it surprising.

zuto40

Why have any heals break cloak when any dot on a nb does nearly as fine despite cloak being able to"suppress" it

ku5h

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

I quite literally can't believe there are stamina players here trying to justify stamina heals not breaking stealth.

News flash, all heals break stealth, except stamina heals.

You have no idea what you'r talking about. NB was like the worst stam class for PvP in DB, with this change its just total garbage. If you think otherwise just go and duel some other competent stam classes, belive me you wont survive more then 10 sec, that is when your stamina runs out from chaining dodge rolls, since from now on its NBs only defensive mechanic.

ku5h

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The change to Vigor's functionality is intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Vigor will now remove you from sneak or invisibility when cast, and we've updated the Live patch notes to reflect this change.

The high-pitched audio sound that you're hearing is not intended, though, and we're currently investigating that issue.

This only shows how out of touch you guys are with your own game. You took the squishiest class out there and thought to yourselfs, hmmm how can we make it even more squishy. Good job! Again making changes that are totaly random and damn right wrong, but when ppl dirrect you to a real problems, you just ignore it. Just terrible at balancing the game.

Strider_Roshin

ku5h wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The change to Vigor's functionality is intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Vigor will now remove you from sneak or invisibility when cast, and we've updated the Live patch notes to reflect this change.

The high-pitched audio sound that you're hearing is not intended, though, and we're currently investigating that issue.

This only shows how out of touch you guys are with your own game. You took the squishiest class out there and thought to yourselfs, hmmm how can we make it even more squishy. Good job! Again making changes that are totaly random and damn right wrong, but when ppl dirrect you to a real problems, you just ignore it. Just terrible at balancing the game.

Okay, I do think this change was a good one. At the same time I also agree that the Nightblade could be a bit tankier than they currently are. DKs have a free 3500 spell resistance, increase in healing with spiked armor active, and more damage mitigation when blocking. Templars have 4% more spell resistance, increase damage mitigation from physical when blocking, and major mending passively. Sorcs have the only good and reliable escape in the game, and the strongest damage shield. Nightblades have cloak, which has so many counters that I don't even put it on my magblade anymore. Nightblades need a little defense buff in my opinion.

davey1107

Sick and tired of ZOS needing all sneaking in the game. Not just NBs...the approach to sneak blows for every class.

With every update sneak gets tougher, pvp gets zergier, and the user experience gets laggier and more obnoxious.

thankyourat

I just want to say that magblades can not heal while cloaked healing ward breaks cloak, it always has.

DDuke

thankyourat wrote: »

I just want to say that magblades can not heal while cloaked healing ward breaks cloak, it always has.

Haven't tried Healing Ward, but I can confirm that Dampen Magic atleast does not break cloak.

Minalan

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The change to Vigor's functionality is intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Vigor will now remove you from sneak or invisibility when cast, and we've updated the Live patch notes to reflect this change.

The high-pitched audio sound that you're hearing is not intended, though, and we're currently investigating that issue.

This only shows how out of touch you guys are with your own game. You took the squishiest class out there and thought to yourselfs, hmmm how can we make it even more squishy. Good job! Again making changes that are totaly random and damn right wrong, but when ppl dirrect you to a real problems, you just ignore it. Just terrible at balancing the game.

Okay, I do think this change was a good one. At the same time I also agree that the Nightblade could be a bit tankier than they currently are. DKs have a free 3500 spell resistance, increase in healing with spiked armor active, and more damage mitigation when blocking. Templars have 4% more spell resistance, increase damage mitigation from physical when blocking, and major mending passively. Sorcs have the only good and reliable escape in the game, and the strongest damage shield. Nightblades have cloak, which has so many counters that I don't even put it on my magblade anymore. Nightblades need a little defense buff in my opinion.

Sorcs have what? Hahahahahaha ha!

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I just want to say that magblades can not heal while cloaked healing ward breaks cloak, it always has.

Haven't tried Healing Ward, but I can confirm that Dampen Magic atleast does not break cloak.

Healing ward breaks cloak, because it heals the lowest health guy within a few meters. Not AOE, but usually it lands on someone else

Lava_Croft

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The change to Vigor's functionality is intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Vigor will now remove you from sneak or invisibility when cast, and we've updated the Live patch notes to reflect this change.

The high-pitched audio sound that you're hearing is not intended, though, and we're currently investigating that issue.

This only shows how out of touch you guys are with your own game. You took the squishiest class out there and thought to yourselfs, hmmm how can we make it even more squishy. Good job! Again making changes that are totaly random and damn right wrong, but when ppl dirrect you to a real problems, you just ignore it. Just terrible at balancing the game.

Okay, I do think this change was a good one. At the same time I also agree that the Nightblade could be a bit tankier than they currently are. DKs have a free 3500 spell resistance, increase in healing with spiked armor active, and more damage mitigation when blocking. Templars have 4% more spell resistance, increase damage mitigation from physical when blocking, and major mending passively. Sorcs have the only good and reliable escape in the game, and the strongest damage shield. Nightblades have cloak, which has so many counters that I don't even put it on my magblade anymore. Nightblades need a little defense buff in my opinion.

Nightblades have Shadow Barrier. Nightblades have Shadow Image. Nightblades have speed buffs. Nightblades have Siphoning Attacks. Nightblades have Stamina and Magicka regeneration passives.

Sadly, Nightblades also have a lot of scrubs playing them.

Mauz

Casting Vigor does break Cloak but the tick doesn't. Just Vigor->Cloak->Rally instead of Cloak->Vigor-Rally. If you are in stealth you are at full health anyway most of the cases. There are some things you can't do anymore, ok, but it's not such a big nerf for NB.

The thing I don't understand with this change is why they wanted to hit the sustained gameplay of NBs and not the ultra glass canons gank builds. Last one I find more out of order. Regarding sustained gameplay I find stamina NB rather balanced. This will only push ppl into even more extrem gank builds if survivability is now even more pointless for them.