Give "Shuffle" a internal cooldown IDEA ( PLEASE READ )

NotPhobia

Wrobel if you decide to stumble across this post please take this idea into consideration .

Give shuffle a internal cooldown between dodges , so basically say you dodge a crystal frag , when a dodge procs make it to where you can't dodge another attack for X amount of time .
Shuffle right now is procing way to many times as I think a lot of other people would agree on , a internal cooldown would balance the ability and Stam vs Magc issues right now .

NotPhobia

@zos_wrobel

Solariken

I've been saying this as well, OP. I would like to see Major Evasion be changed so that it has a proc cooldown AND DOES NOT evade 100% damage. The RNG just gets out of hand with the current mechanic. Also, this game has an active dodge mechanic already - we don't need a passive dodge mechanic layered on top of it.

I think we could start with 40% chance to evade 50% of the damage of an incoming single target attack with a 1 second proc cooldown and see how it performs.

It's a powerful and necessary survivability tool but the RNG needs to function within reasonable boundaries. Partial credit to KenaPKK for (reluctantly) helping me arrive at the variables above.

DannyLV702

Shuffle is fine

Toc de Malsvi

It actually does not over proc, they've looked into it extensively and said it is not giving more than a 20% chance. What does happen is that when it proc's you dodge 100% of incoming attacks for something like 0.7 seconds. Combined with dodge roll which does the same thing for roughly the same window it can appear that it is proccing more often then it actually is.

Just as often as there are times where it may proc early there are times where it doesn't proc at all. Any attack that has a long flight time is very likely to fall into a dodge "window", this could be attributable to poor code possibly. Also it is possible that due to lag, that the dodge "window" is open for longer than it should be.

Toc de Malsvi

I would like to clarify that as far as I'm aware ZOS has not acknowledged that there is a dodge "window", but that this is an observable phenomenon of dodge mechanics in game. It could be a result of lag and packet handling, that packets are clumped into groups possibly and then sent as one thus allowing players to dodge everything within that group.

There is a problem with Shuffle in its relation to Dot effects, it is very doubtful whether it is an intended mechanic but shuffle seems to allow dodging of Dot effects. Not simply the application of the Dot but the individual ticks can be dodged as well.

GreenSoup2HoT

To be honest, id be fine with completely removing dodge chance from the game.

Then turn shuffle into a long duration snare immunity for 10 seconds. 1 morph would have a longer duration per medium piece and the other morph would remove roots upon use with addition to the snare immunity.

Double Take would also then need to be changed to be snare immunity for the duration but just to buff the ability in general to grant either Major or Minor Expedition for the duration aswell. (I personally think 4 seconds is to short)

This is what i would do because i hate RNG mechanics. It would also make roll dodge your only source of dodge outside of maybe a set proc.

Barlthump

While we are at it. Make Shields have an internal cooldown as well. If you use a shield, you can't use another one for X amount of seconds.

silky_soft

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

To be honest, id be fine with completely removing dodge chance from the game.

Then turn shuffle into a long duration snare immunity for 10 seconds. 1 morph would have a longer duration per medium piece and the other morph would remove roots upon use with addition to the snare immunity.

Double Take would also then need to be changed to be snare immunity for the duration but just to buff the ability in general to grant either Major or Minor Expedition for the duration aswell. (I personally think 4 seconds is to short)

This is what i would do because i hate RNG mechanics. It would also make roll dodge your only source of dodge outside of maybe a set proc.

Ya remove the dodge chance completely redo it. I've always been a 7 medium user, I've dropped shuffle from my bar completely. Making me rely on my reactions and skill to win a fight, unlike malubeth users. Sure I don't win as many 1v1 but it's more gratifying knowing that I killed someone using it.

Give it a movement speed outside of expedition or extended soft cc immunity. Maybe even make it like dk wings, where instead of reflect next attack dodge next attack after casting it.

GreenSoup2HoT

silky_soft wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

To be honest, id be fine with completely removing dodge chance from the game.

Then turn shuffle into a long duration snare immunity for 10 seconds. 1 morph would have a longer duration per medium piece and the other morph would remove roots upon use with addition to the snare immunity.

Double Take would also then need to be changed to be snare immunity for the duration but just to buff the ability in general to grant either Major or Minor Expedition for the duration aswell. (I personally think 4 seconds is to short)

This is what i would do because i hate RNG mechanics. It would also make roll dodge your only source of dodge outside of maybe a set proc.

Ya remove the dodge chance completely redo it. I've always been a 7 medium user, I've dropped shuffle from my bar completely. Making me rely on my reactions and skill to win a fight, unlike malubeth users. Sure I don't win as many 1v1 but it's more gratifying knowing that I killed someone using it.

Give it a movement speed outside of expedition or extended soft cc immunity. Maybe even make it like dk wings, where instead of reflect next attack dodge next attack after casting it.

Exactly why i try to encourage people to use builds that are different. We know what builds are meta and op. Why not challenge yourself.

I dunno about the free dodge thing since that can be abused with Unchained CP passive. I like the idea of a speed boost seperate to minor/major buffs... but magicka nbs would become to fast :P

Ive also been 7 medium since forever.

Rohamad_Ali

Ya let's remove dodge , block and shields . No more defense , it's stupid .

:P

glavius

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

It actually does not over proc, they've looked into it extensively and said it is not giving more than a 20% chance. What does happen is that when it proc's you dodge 100% of incoming attacks for something like 0.7 seconds. Combined with dodge roll which does the same thing for roughly the same window it can appear that it is proccing more often then it actually is.

Just as often as there are times where it may proc early there are times where it doesn't proc at all. Any attack that has a long flight time is very likely to fall into a dodge "window", this could be attributable to poor code possibly. Also it is possible that due to lag, that the dodge "window" is open for longer than it should be.

False info. There is no "dodge everything window". I tested with about 500 light attack->skill-> bash and got very close to 20% dodge chance.

jhharvest

Some other games have pseudo-RNG instead of real RNG. So for example for shuffle it could look something like, first attack on you after casting you have a 5% chance to evade, and the probability keeps increasing until it procs, at which point it resets back to a lower chance. This will basically mean that you are unlikely to dodge two attacks in a row but overall you still have a 20% chance to evade an attack.

Then maybe Zos could implement pseudo-RNG for loot tables and other more important random factors...

RoyalSlyness

NotPhobia wrote: »

Wrobel if you decide to stumble across this post please take this idea into consideration .

Give shuffle a internal cooldown between dodges , so basically say you dodge a crystal frag , when a dodge procs make it to where you can't dodge another attack for X amount of time .
Shuffle right now is procing way to many times as I think a lot of other people would agree on , a internal cooldown would balance the ability and Stam vs Magc issues right now .

Why should the game design be changed because you refuse to use a skill that's available to you and choose to run a less viable build? Other people's play style and skills should be nerfed so that you have an easier time killing them but don't have to change anything?

I kill folks every night running Shuffle. I don't know why you're having such a hard time.

Forestd16b14_ESO

OK the give damage shields a cool down or make them crit-able or bets solution amke them non-stackable.

Mac10murda

Make shuffle last 6 seconds

Toc de Malsvi

Fully charge

glavius wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

It actually does not over proc, they've looked into it extensively and said it is not giving more than a 20% chance. What does happen is that when it proc's you dodge 100% of incoming attacks for something like 0.7 seconds. Combined with dodge roll which does the same thing for roughly the same window it can appear that it is proccing more often then it actually is.

Just as often as there are times where it may proc early there are times where it doesn't proc at all. Any attack that has a long flight time is very likely to fall into a dodge "window", this could be attributable to poor code possibly. Also it is possible that due to lag, that the dodge "window" is open for longer than it should be.

False info. There is no "dodge everything window". I tested with about 500 light attack->skill-> bash and got very close to 20% dodge chance.

See my second post. When it proc's virtually everything will be dodged for that instance. You will see "dodge", "dodge", "dodge", "dodge". As shown in this video each time Dodge pops up on my character it pops up in groups of "dodge, dodge, dodge."

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/733443fc-8cfd-47f0-9375-04809f61143b?gamerTag=Toc de Malsvii&scid=03a80100-9ff3-46ea-be76-e00e7fe465df

thankyourat

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Ya let's remove dodge , block and shields . No more defense , it's stupid .

:P

Shuffle is more luck than defense. There's nothing worse than setting up a burst combo to win a fight and both your attacks are dodge while your opponent is CC'd. Why can an attack be dodged if you are CC'd anyway. Something needs to be done about shuffle it's over performing

glavius

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Fully charge

glavius wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

It actually does not over proc, they've looked into it extensively and said it is not giving more than a 20% chance. What does happen is that when it proc's you dodge 100% of incoming attacks for something like 0.7 seconds. Combined with dodge roll which does the same thing for roughly the same window it can appear that it is proccing more often then it actually is.

Just as often as there are times where it may proc early there are times where it doesn't proc at all. Any attack that has a long flight time is very likely to fall into a dodge "window", this could be attributable to poor code possibly. Also it is possible that due to lag, that the dodge "window" is open for longer than it should be.

False info. There is no "dodge everything window". I tested with about 500 light attack->skill-> bash and got very close to 20% dodge chance.

See my second post. When it proc's virtually everything will be dodged for that instance. You will see "dodge", "dodge", "dodge", "dodge". As shown in this video each time Dodge pops up on my character it pops up in groups of "dodge, dodge, dodge."

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/733443fc-8cfd-47f0-9375-04809f61143b?gamerTag=Toc de Malsvii&scid=03a80100-9ff3-46ea-be76-e00e7fe465df

Just looked at the video. All but one time, multiple dodges are because you DODGE ROLL....
Only at one point did I see you get 3-4 dodges without a dodge roll.

ToRelax

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Fully charge

glavius wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

It actually does not over proc, they've looked into it extensively and said it is not giving more than a 20% chance. What does happen is that when it proc's you dodge 100% of incoming attacks for something like 0.7 seconds. Combined with dodge roll which does the same thing for roughly the same window it can appear that it is proccing more often then it actually is.

Just as often as there are times where it may proc early there are times where it doesn't proc at all. Any attack that has a long flight time is very likely to fall into a dodge "window", this could be attributable to poor code possibly. Also it is possible that due to lag, that the dodge "window" is open for longer than it should be.

False info. There is no "dodge everything window". I tested with about 500 light attack->skill-> bash and got very close to 20% dodge chance.

See my second post. When it proc's virtually everything will be dodged for that instance. You will see "dodge", "dodge", "dodge", "dodge". As shown in this video each time Dodge pops up on my character it pops up in groups of "dodge, dodge, dodge."

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/733443fc-8cfd-47f0-9375-04809f61143b?gamerTag=Toc de Malsvii&scid=03a80100-9ff3-46ea-be76-e00e7fe465df

Aside from the most of those being rolls, I'm sure the bunch of incoming damage numbers when you don't roll is just a coincidence...

Vangy

............ no

RoamingRiverElk

Remove dodge and shuffle? No thank you, defensive actions have already been nerfed more than enough. And I mostly play magicka builds, by the way.

Jsmalls

Just fix the extended dodge period of roll dodge. As it stands right now if I throw a frag or weave or use any projectile as the opponent stands up from a Dodge roll it still continues to miss for half a second to a second, which is rather aggravating.

mtwiggz

In a current meta where TTK is at an all time low you want to nerf one of the very few defensive abilities that still works? Shame. Shame. Shame.

krathos

thankyourat wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Ya let's remove dodge , block and shields . No more defense , it's stupid .

:P

Shuffle is more luck than defense. There's nothing worse than setting up a burst combo to win a fight and both your attacks are dodge while your opponent is CC'd. Why can an attack be dodged if you are CC'd anyway. Something needs to be done about shuffle it's over performing

@thankyourat because shuffle makes me a spooky ghost. you can't hit a ghost. basic ghost logic here.

Komma

No defense should be automatic. You should never win a fight because of chance. People cry because this game is taking less skill but want to keep something in the game like random dodging. Dodging is avoiding all dmg by 100%. Its lame that some peoples characters take advantage of it more than others. Funny though it seems many of the same people I fight in cyrodiil seem to have the best rng in the game. Maybe these "elite" players who know how to "adjust" their dodge chances should share their secrets...

ToRelax

Komma wrote: »

No defense should be automatic. You should never win a fight because of chance. People cry because this game is taking less skill but want to keep something in the game like random dodging. Dodging is avoiding all dmg by 100%. Its lame that some peoples characters take advantage of it more than others. Funny though it seems many of the same people I fight in cyrodiil seem to have the best rng in the game. Maybe these "elite" players who know how to "adjust" their dodge chances should share their secrets...

I'm all for it, let's make active, reliable defensive actions more powerful again instead!

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

Just fix the extended dodge period of roll dodge. As it stands right now if I throw a frag or weave or use any projectile as the opponent stands up from a Dodge roll it still continues to miss for half a second to a second, which is rather aggravating.

Don't fix what is not broken. You know roughly how long it takes until you can hit again, so if anything ask for the animation to be adjusted, not the ability to be nerfed, since the latter doesn't seem to be your problem at all.

Van_0S

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Shuffle is fine

True, even RD is fine !

Forestd16b14_ESO

Komma wrote: »

No defense should be automatic. You should never win a fight because of chance. People cry because this game is taking less skill but want to keep something in the game like random dodging. Dodging is avoiding all dmg by 100%. Its lame that some peoples characters take advantage of it more than others. Funny though it seems many of the same people I fight in cyrodiil seem to have the best rng in the game. Maybe these "elite" players who know how to "adjust" their dodge chances should share their secrets...

Hmm so damage shields that absorb 100% of the damage and gives auto pilot for defense and doesn't increase cost when spammed isn't lame ?

arkansas_ESO

Shuffle is lame to fight against, but it's a huge part of stamina's survivability. Remove the dodge chance from Shuffle (but keep it as a cheap snare removal) and remove/reduce the increasing cost penalty on dodge roll. There, now stamina is forced to rely on active defense (knowing when to dodge incoming attacks) instead of just RNG.

Barlthump

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Komma wrote: »

No defense should be automatic. You should never win a fight because of chance. People cry because this game is taking less skill but want to keep something in the game like random dodging. Dodging is avoiding all dmg by 100%. Its lame that some peoples characters take advantage of it more than others. Funny though it seems many of the same people I fight in cyrodiil seem to have the best rng in the game. Maybe these "elite" players who know how to "adjust" their dodge chances should share their secrets...

Hmm so damage shields that absorb 100% of the damage and gives auto pilot for defense and doesn't increase cost when spammed isn't lame ?

Sssh logic has no place here, they are butt hurt that the shield duration is 6 secs and hate everyone for it.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Shuffle is lame to fight against, but it's a huge part of stamina's survivability. Remove the dodge chance from Shuffle (but keep it as a cheap snare removal) and remove/reduce the increasing cost penalty on dodge roll. There, now stamina is forced to rely on active defense (knowing when to dodge incoming attacks) instead of just RNG.

You do know dodge roll is for everyone right? Even magicka users, with 10k stam I could break free and Roll Dodge 2 times before the increase cost, now 1 break free 1 dodge roll. Don't ninja ask for magicka buff. Cause popping a shield every 6 seconds is not active defense.