PVP Imbalance Discussion - Magicka vs Stamina Resource Pools

Cronopoly

SamTheSwan wrote: »

I've played an absolute ton of Mag Sorc, and I have to say the shield nerf didn't do that much to my open world play style. My biggest complaint is how major evasion and dodging makes it nigh impossible to keep pressure, much less land a complete combo. I would request that there be some mechanic major "de-evasion" that would cost resources that would allow sorcs and other classes, (magicka or stamina based) actually land skills. Slap a stacking mechanic (much like streak) so it cannot be spammed to remove stamina classes defenses, and call it a day

I fully agree. In PVP we all notice how all Magicka classes have NO ACCURACY at all with the OP Shuffle/dodge roll mechanic that has NO diminishing returns and can be cast over and over. The percentage of time your spells and attacks don't hit force you into Tactical Pressure defensiveness. Outside of Mag Templar Tank/ Healer builds most that are doing great are Stamina builds as they are just wrecking it...

OT:
Broken mechanics like Malubeth that still survive to this day just make me shake my head.

lokrian

your joking right?? now i know that on a mag build with low stam, 10k ish, its a pain to have sneak eat that stam, dodge roll eat that stam etc.... but when all is said and done their are ways of getting back that stam, gear sets, pots etc and you have a full resource bar of anywhere from 20-40k of magicka to dump on and dish out the pain, heal, shield etc

A stam build.... having dodgeroll, sneak, sprint etc... anytime you do any of those things you lose potential resource to dps or heal.... it is quite easy to be jumped with 1/2 your resource bar gone cause you were sneaking along somewhere, then you are pretty screwed.

A mag build can sprint to a fight too help his mates till his stam bar is dry then dump all his magicka into offense or defense... a stam build sprints to the fight only to realise that the time it takes to emote "bugger" is still twice as long as it took for him to die.

Lord-Otto

Time to end this nonsensical argument once and for all.

Magicka builds pay exactly the same amount of stamina to sprint, sneak, dodge and break free as stamina builds do. Depending on your passives, even more. But we got a much smaller pool to begin with (a third of what stamina builds have) and significantly lower stamina regen (a quarter, maybe). When stamina builds run dry, your stamina repletes much faster and you have sprinted and stuff much longer beforehand, anyway.

This would be fine if having 0 stamina didn't mean immediate DEATH in this game. No, you cannot just continue fighting with your magicka, as you get cc'ed and killed. You stamina players are really ignorant at times. When you run out of magicka, you lose utility, that is all. In fact, you offten argument that magicka is more or less useless to you. By definition a first world problem. When we run out of stamina, we're dead, simple as that. This is not, nowhere, never a balanced thing. It is a vast and unfair advantage to stamina builds, on top of the already higher damage, burst, mobility and resistance advantage you have. On top of now having some of the most overpowered ultimates of all time.

Solution is simple.
Magicka builds break free and do stuff with magicka, stamina builds do it with stamina. Puts us in the same boat. Doesn't meet Wroebel's vision of unique builds in this game, but no one takes this dude seriously anymore, anyway.

Cronopoly

lokrian wrote: »

your joking right?? now i know that on a mag build with low stam, 10k ish, its a pain to have sneak eat that stam, dodge roll eat that stam etc.... but when all is said and done their are ways of getting back that stam, gear sets, pots etc and you have a full resource bar of anywhere from 20-40k of magicka to dump on and dish out the pain, heal, shield etc

A stam build.... having dodgeroll, sneak, sprint etc... anytime you do any of those things you lose potential resource to dps or heal.... it is quite easy to be jumped with 1/2 your resource bar gone cause you were sneaking along somewhere, then you are pretty screwed.

A mag build can sprint to a fight too help his mates till his stam bar is dry then dump all his magicka into offense or defense... a stam build sprints to the fight only to realise that the time it takes to emote "bugger" is still twice as long as it took for him to die.

Hello, We all play Stamina toons too and have since launch two years ago, and know well and good by personal experience that they "currently" do not have the same resource issues when "Competantly" built for PVP.

In PVP, as Magicka, once you are out of Stamina the first CC gets you killed, you cannot turn your camera, typically knocked down , rooted, you cannot Dump anything. Many times Magicka toons cannot hit anything with Stamina perma dodge mechanics, which have NO penalty whatsoever. Gap close, No penalty whatsoever.

Again no nerf is requested of Stamina. We'd like something available so Magicka toons can "compete" with Tactical Offensive pressure. As is with paper shields and NO accuracy "By design to hit anything" we are forced more times than not to just "Shield and Heal until the second CC hits then we die.

Some always mention their Stamina toons get wrecked by Sorcs or Magicka DK's today. With no malice I say that's a L2P issue about the classes you are facing. Some Noobs will go straight at a Sorc without evasion, or dodge roll, and eat a Crystal Frag... There's many other things one can do that is not wise against any class. Many of us learn these offensive and defensive tactics inside a Month of good PVP.

After that indoctrination is where the imbalance is shown in favor of Stamina combat mechanics to be far stronger at placing Tactical pressure on all Magicka Toons. Magicka Templars do have some tools that allow them to deal with not immediately dieing amongst other things.

Many Stamina mechanics are designed to make the user like a Smart Bomb. Deadly at range and up close. Instant no cast time Defense mechanics, Two Insta HOT mechanics giving the ability to ignore nearly all Dots cast upon them, Insta Dodge roll (2 second 100% immunity, Insta Gap close however many times necessary to get into execute Range to "Be the Bomb, then Burst & Execute all of which typically forces the Magicka opponent into defensiveness while you are swinging 60%+ do or die burst to their paper armor HP.

Truth is that range and up close balance are fallicies if there's absolutely nothing a magicka class can do to keep you at range beyond giving a quick hicup/subsecond ccbreak then "YES I have immunity" to wreak havock for another 8 seconds with.

Cronopoly

Posted this in another thread

Cronopoly wrote: »

Right now there's no counter to the Percentage of Evade a person has.
Other mechanics have counters that are guaged player vs player:
Physical Resistance - Physical Penetration
Spell Resistance - Spell Penetration
Crit Resistance - Crit Chance
Dodge/Evade - Free Willy No counter Stam classes are way better suited to avoid damage at any range should they choose to take advantage of this mechanic. almost crazy not to.

kaithuzar

My thoughts are nerf dodge/miss chance or have more skills to be able to hit through it. Magplar is good imo b/c of dark flare & bol. I think a lot of magicka users need to consider what i go back & forth between which is 5 heavy kags or 5 heavy alchemist, you need the damage but you also need some defense. All impen is a must if you are not shield stacking & it's not bad even if you are shield stacking but having problems keeping them up.
Personally I think magicka classes do too little damage in comparison to stamina classes because it's typical for stam sorcs to run kena & alchemist for over 6k wp dmg because they have dark deal & don't have to worry about resources. I think high elf dk vamp with atro mundus & alchemist might not be a bad idea.
Pretty much all magicka users imo should run 1 blood spawn or 2 engine guardian to replenish pools.

kaithuzar

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So this is a nerf stamina and buff magikca thread right ?

Look shields are still OP and that 1 resource reliability or what every hurts stamina users alot for that they need stamina for both attacking and everything else which can drain stamina pretty fast and it doesn't help Wrobel increased the cost of blocking, sprinting, stealth, and break free. Stamina is now at the point you have to invest everything into 1 of those 5 things just to use it more than 2 or 3 times.

Like blocking for example you have to pool everything CP, traits, and enchantments into reducing block cost just to block for a reliable amount of time.

Magicka users are fine if not even more powerful from annulments buff and stamina users are still getting kicked in the gut cause ZoS logic.... No not ZoS logic Wrobels logic.

Also don't even bring up the perma-blocking Malubeth users ok ? Malubeth is OP just leave it at that.

If you think shields are "still OP", obviously you haven't discovered the champion tree that does more damage to shields...
IMO everyone should have at least 5-20% in there...

kaithuzar

Durete wrote: »

Tbh I think that the system is fair, and if anything benefits from it it's magicka users,

And here is why:

If i'm on my Magicka sorcerer: I sprint and something attacks me, guess what? I still have my magicka pool to heal/dps.

On my Stam DK or Stam Blade, I sprint and someone attacks me: Guess what, No stamina left! so I can only do some heavy atacks and lose important time while waiting for the other to kill me as I can't do much back.

And besides that, on most stamina builds you still need to sacrifice a lot of points to Health instead of pure stamina builds, or if you're a tank you still need to put some points in magicka for the self heals/shields.

it's not like any class is in a good place by putting everything in magicka, or stamina or health.
Balance is the name of the game, unless you want to be a cookie cutter and kill fast, die fast because you put everything in stamina or magicka. but then that's your choice.

Besides that, for pvp magicka users are usually the healers or dpsers, which stay on a distance and attack without being attacked themselves. (Environmental awareness/positioning is an important thing, especially if yoúre a heavy magicka or stamina user.)

You need to learn how to build your gear/toon correctly. All of your arguments could easily be fixed by using a "proper" build & the good stam players in Cyrodiil show it daily.

kaithuzar

Leandor wrote: »

Give magicka users the true feeling of the dodge incident.

Give hardened the initial duration. Everytime you reapply while it is still active, you double the cost. Cost resets once you have not re-applied for the full duration of 20 seconds

How about shield = dodge roll so every time we re-cast we gain dodge/miss chance & won't be hit by anything other than a few aoe's?

Cronopoly

On my Stamina toon due to CP's that favor Dodge roll plus, Armor traits, and Stam pool resource its easier than ever to Dodge roll 7 or 8 times in a row back to back with basically near 100% damage immunity before hitting a Stam Pot. And that's with the extra cost for successively Dodge rolling. This is by design apparently

Baconlad

I think that if the classes them selves were more balanced amongst their own specs (mag sorc compared to stam sorc) it would smooth itself out. Right now templar...is REALLY balanced, I fear a mag temp as much as I fear a stam temp. I fear stam DK much more than a mag DK. Stam sorc is tougher for me to deal with than magsorc. And NBs...for some reason I haven't seen many mag NBs in a really long time. Mostly stam here. But I do not fear NBs...they are just annoying as hell. Most of the time if their gank fails, they go away...so no problem there. Oh and I'm a magtemp for reference. I will say in my own experiments into stamina, that stam builds in general are harder to play FOR ME at least. Can't get the dodge roll to work like some of the pros

smacx250

Simple - move block, roll, break free, sneak, and sprint costs to a new stat pool, "agility". That should satisfy the stam crowd who say it is unfair they need to share their stacked pool, and satisfy the mag crowd who says it is unfair that stam's stacked pool gives them all that while theirs doesn't.