Biting Jabs not going through roll dodge, but Puncturing Sweep does?

iRageGGB

Basically title.

Edit: For simplification.

Puncturing sweep (Magicka Morph) GOES THROUGH DODGE ROLL
Biting Jabs (Stamina Morph) DOESN'T GO THROUGH DODGE ROLL..why not? It should be just like it's Magicka version, just stamina and weapon damage based right?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Dredlord

Why is an aoe going through dodge a bit wierd?

iRageGGB

Dredlord wrote: »

Why is an aoe going through dodge a bit wierd?

Well the point of dodge rolling is so you don't get hit, but having an ability that goes through the mechanic of dodging an attack doesn't make much sense. Another point is the other morph of basically the same ability doesn't go through roll dodge. So why have 1 morph go through roll dodge and 1 morph not go through roll dodge.

Dredlord

Oh ok i guess you didnt know that most aoe's in this game arent dodgeable. It seemed odd you would find the one working normally to not make sense and not the other one.

iRageGGB

Dredlord wrote: »

Oh ok i guess you didnt know that most aoe's in this game arent dodgeable. It seemed odd you would find the one working normally to not make sense and not the other one.

I might have worded it wrong I guess, my issue with both morphs is the fact that the Stamina morph (biting jabs) can't go through roll dodges and the magicka morph (puncturing sweep) CAN go through roll dodges. In pvp at least puncturing sweep/biting jabs is used (from what I've seen) as a single target ability most of the time. But whatever my point is 1 morph of the ability goes through the mechanic of roll dodging and the other morph of the same ability doesn't, WHY?

Hashtag_

The way sweeps are used IMO it should be dodgeable like biting jabs.

Cinbri

Yes, roll dodge should provide God Mode to everyone who use it..

Destruent

Hashtag_ wrote: »

The way sweeps are used IMO it should be dodgeable like biting jabs.

No, both should hit you while dodging. The counter to AoEs is to walk auf of them, not to dodge them

lolo_01b16_ESO

As far as I know every stam based aoe is dodgable but no magicka based one. In the past the same thing was true about melee attacks, but unfortunately they changed that to make them all dodgable. In my opinion it was nice to allow endless dodge builds but have a strong counter to them in form of melee magblades and magdks.

caeliusstarbreaker

All magicka non projectile aoe's go through dodge roll

iRageGGB

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

All magicka non projectile aoe's go through dodge roll

Yes, this I know, have known this for awhile. But why does the stam form of the ability not go through dodge roll?

twistedmonk

Are other stamina AoE's going through dodge roll? barrage, steel tornado?

perhaps its by design. 1v1 with both stam users, I think you're supposed to dodge roll together, hand in hand.

Solariken

I know OP, it's a stupid double standard.

IMO both should be undodgeable, but if your target dodges, they should only take the lower AoE tooltip damage and NOT the bonus % single target damage.

That would be perfectly balanced for all morphs.

Ffastyl

Ffastyl wrote: »

From my two years experience, I have gleaned how dodge roll works mechanically.

Dodge roll negates all incoming single target attacks at the time of activation. This includes all attacks in the process of casting and projectiles mid flight. Area of effect attacks are not negated. The frustrating quirk is how the system handles current position: until the moment the roll animation finishes, the character is registered by the server as standing exactly where the roll started. At the roll animation's termination, the character's position is updated and for targeting purposes is like a delayed Bolt Escape.

This makes running, sprinting or even walking out of AoE more effective than rolling due to the delay in position update. This also makes targeting a character mid roll unintuitive and heavily in favor of the rolling character. The distance is just long enough that if a player were smart enough to target where the roll started, once the roll ends the character will be outside of the player's melee attack range. To adjust for this, the player would have to stand in the path of the roll, but this presents the issue of needing to turn 180 to continue attacking. At that point if the character rolls again, the same counter cannot be employed.

If the dodge roll is mechanically changed to update character position at the start of the animation, catching rolls would be more intuitive and roll spam less of an issue.

caeliusstarbreaker

iRageGGB wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

All magicka non projectile aoe's go through dodge roll

Yes, this I know, have known this for awhile. But why does the stam form of the ability not go through dodge roll?

Last meeting we had... ZoS said they are aware of this and plan to look at and rectify it...... None of us know what that means

caeliusstarbreaker

Added: in short, there is no logical reasoning as to why this is done.

The only thing I can think of is when they made channeled magicka skills undodgeable, ie radiant, drain... This skill and it's code followed suit.

iRageGGB

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Added: in short, there is no logical reasoning as to why this is done.

The only thing I can think of is when they made channeled magicka skills undodgeable, ie radiant, drain... This skill and it's code followed suit.

So their spaghetti code got the best of them...again. Go figure. I mean I don't expect it to be fixed within the next year or so. But I'll just have to get used to biting jabs I guess.

lolo_01b16_ESO

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Added: in short, there is no logical reasoning as to why this is done.

The only thing I can think of is when they made channeled magicka skills undodgeable, ie radiant, drain... This skill and it's code followed suit.

In the past (when it was possible to roll dodge from dragonclaw to blackboot) all melee magicka skills were undodgable no matter weather they were aoe or single target, which was fine imo. In a stam vs stam fight you could dodge forever, in a mag vs mag fight you could use harness all day long and in a mag vs stam fight both had to defend in a different way.

Vaoh

Destruent wrote: »

Hashtag_ wrote: »

The way sweeps are used IMO it should be dodgeable like biting jabs.

No, both should hit you while dodging. The counter to AoEs is to walk auf of them, not to dodge them

Yup. Sorta different though.... considering that it snares you by 70%

caeliusstarbreaker

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Added: in short, there is no logical reasoning as to why this is done.

The only thing I can think of is when they made channeled magicka skills undodgeable, ie radiant, drain... This skill and it's code followed suit.

In the past (when it was possible to roll dodge from dragonclaw to blackboot) all melee magicka skills were undodgable no matter weather they were aoe or single target, which was fine imo. In a stam vs stam fight you could dodge forever, in a mag vs mag fight you could use harness all day long and in a mag vs stam fight both had to defend in a different way.

Well... Technically it was all non projectile magicka abilities.. Then the nerf flame lash and nerf dodge roll threads... Now it's just all aoe, non projectile magicka skills... Not counting any ulti's.

But yea... I'm just saying if I had to guess where that divide happened between sweeps and jabs, was when they made it so channels couldn't be dodged, things like sweeps stayed undodgeable. Dark flat is more the anomaly, the game seems to think it's both a cast time projectile and channel, cause you can dodge the ball... But you still get hit with the defile.

iRageGGB

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Added: in short, there is no logical reasoning as to why this is done.

The only thing I can think of is when they made channeled magicka skills undodgeable, ie radiant, drain... This skill and it's code followed suit.

In the past (when it was possible to roll dodge from dragonclaw to blackboot) all melee magicka skills were undodgable no matter weather they were aoe or single target, which was fine imo. In a stam vs stam fight you could dodge forever, in a mag vs mag fight you could use harness all day long and in a mag vs stam fight both had to defend in a different way.

Well... Technically it was all non projectile magicka abilities.. Then the nerf flame lash and nerf dodge roll threads... Now it's just all aoe, non projectile magicka skills... Not counting any ulti's.

But yea... I'm just saying if I had to guess where that divide happened between sweeps and jabs, was when they made it so channels couldn't be dodged, things like sweeps stayed undodgeable. Dark flat is more the anomaly, the game seems to think it's both a cast time projectile and channel, cause you can dodge the ball... But you still get hit with the defile.

Yeah because spaghetti code, I mean I'm just saying it's spaghetti code because awhile ago they tried to fix something with roll dodge and they broke overload on sorc LIKE HOW?!?! Anyways, I think both should be un-dodgeable not 1 morph is dodgeable and 1 isn't, makes no sense.

caeliusstarbreaker

iRageGGB wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Added: in short, there is no logical reasoning as to why this is done.

The only thing I can think of is when they made channeled magicka skills undodgeable, ie radiant, drain... This skill and it's code followed suit.

In the past (when it was possible to roll dodge from dragonclaw to blackboot) all melee magicka skills were undodgable no matter weather they were aoe or single target, which was fine imo. In a stam vs stam fight you could dodge forever, in a mag vs mag fight you could use harness all day long and in a mag vs stam fight both had to defend in a different way.

Well... Technically it was all non projectile magicka abilities.. Then the nerf flame lash and nerf dodge roll threads... Now it's just all aoe, non projectile magicka skills... Not counting any ulti's.

But yea... I'm just saying if I had to guess where that divide happened between sweeps and jabs, was when they made it so channels couldn't be dodged, things like sweeps stayed undodgeable. Dark flat is more the anomaly, the game seems to think it's both a cast time projectile and channel, cause you can dodge the ball... But you still get hit with the defile.

Yeah because spaghetti code, I mean I'm just saying it's spaghetti code because awhile ago they tried to fix something with roll dodge and they broke overload on sorc LIKE HOW?!?! Anyways, I think both should be un-dodgeable not 1 morph is dodgeable and 1 isn't, makes no sense.

Spaghetti code is a very nice way to put it. Although... I'm not sure biting jabs (I am only really commenting on this one cause I play a stamplar) should be undodgeable... It would be a bit too much.

Xvorg

Why a AoE skills that snares a 70% and heals you for a 35% dmg done should be undodgeable?

There are a lot of melee skills out there that heal on hit, which are dodgeable and suffer from battle spirit (bloodthirst and blood craze in the DW line, burning embers and flame lash in the DK ardent flame line, killers blade in the NB assasination line), but only punct sweep is the one you see in cyro.

Now, pair that skill with natural templar healing capacity and malubeth...

Just think about this, 3 guys against one templar how much dmg does he do? How much healing he gets back? Sure, a sap tank and a inhale DK get moar healing, but none of the two has aditional dmg (which also increase the healing), besides sap essence and inhale cost way more magicka than sweep.... on top of that, due to the restoring light passive, sweep costs a 4% less, which paired with the magicka cost reduction given by cps and 5 pcs light armor can raise the reduction near a 40% Did I mention that 1 HA pc gives them 8% extra healing? (And I've not even mentioned resto staff passives)

Do you think it's fair?

Both should be dodgeable... or better! Everyone should have stamplars or mageplars in cyro... why would you play any other class in cyro?

Solariken

I think it's stupid that Jabs can be dodged. Both morphs should be unable to be dodged. However, a dodging target should take the AoE tooltip damage amount (without the 140% increase).

timidobserver

Hopefully this thread doesn't result in a nerf to puncturing sweep.

iRageGGB

timidobserver wrote: »

Hopefully this thread doesn't result in a nerf to puncturing sweep.

That's not my intention of this thread it was just trying to bring up a reason for 1 morph being dodge able and the other morph not being dodge-able

Strider_Roshin

Xvorg wrote: »

Why a AoE skills that snares a 70% and heals you for a 35% dmg done should be undodgeable?

There are a lot of melee skills out there that heal on hit, which are dodgeable and suffer from battle spirit (bloodthirst and blood craze in the DW line, burning embers and flame lash in the DK ardent flame line, killers blade in the NB assasination line), but only punct sweep is the one you see in cyro.

Now, pair that skill with natural templar healing capacity and malubeth...

Just think about this, 3 guys against one templar how much dmg does he do? How much healing he gets back? Sure, a sap tank and a inhale DK get moar healing, but none of the two has aditional dmg (which also increase the healing), besides sap essence and inhale cost way more magicka than sweep.... on top of that, due to the restoring light passive, sweep costs a 4% less, which paired with the magicka cost reduction given by cps and 5 pcs light armor can raise the reduction near a 40% Did I mention that 1 HA pc gives them 8% extra healing? (And I've not even mentioned resto staff passives)

Do you think it's fair?

Both should be dodgeable... or better! Everyone should have stamplars or mageplars in cyro... why would you play any other class in cyro?

Because it's a magicka templar and magicka Templars can never be OP. Only Nightblades can be OP. Don't even mention RD or else all of the forumplars will zerg this post. You've been warned. Btw nerf incap because it does half the damage of DBoS and it's dodgeable, but since it's a Nightblade move it's OP.