Dark Exchange/ Dark Deal

Cathexis

Jar_Ek wrote: »

We have figured it out... don't use it on the battlefield.

Part of the problem is that any way you cut it, it is hard to get off successfully, especially without taking even more damage.

Magicka builds could, theoretically, ward and then cast dark exchange/dea, or cc and then cast... or both. This is less viable for stamina builds (with only a very poor class ward or an expensive undaunted one) although cc is an option. And of course running and hiding is an option as well (streak is easier for magicka tho).

But warding doesn't stop your 1s channel (which takes closer to 2s to do anything) from being interrupted and cc can last for almost 0s with a quick player.... which leaves running and hiding. Both of which are fraught with risk.

Not to mention that in pve vs a boss the cc option isn't a viable one.

Ultimately the skill just doesn't work well as a heal for any situation where you may actually need it. It may be okay for resource regeneration, but then so would a heavy attack.

Making it uninterruptible would help, or a HoT with instant cast, or a vastly decreased cast time, or even a (can't believe I am suggesting this) a channel or toggle again.

I have found this ability to be far more effective on a tank oriented build than a leather, damage heavier, dodge roll oriented build. When you can take a pounding, you have more time to spam dark deal, and you can afford a few misfires. Being interupted becomes a part of the play. When your opponent tries to interupt your dark deal, they typically have to stop attacking you and move close to you. That gives you a tactical advantage to debuff and cc and set up offensive attacks as your opponent is moved to a vulnerable position and loses resources for every attempt to interupt. Especially with Hurricane and Surge, it's free heals.

I agree though that it needs to be a hot. When it plays out how I described earlier, the net effect on the battle is simply delaying the fight without any functional gain on either side.

Jar_Ek

Yeah I reckon I use it too late in a fight. Its just not an emergency heal, its a 60% heal.

Cathexis

@Jar_Ek it does actually function quite well as an emergency heal with the correct tank attributes stacked.. The key element though is ensuring you always have a steady stream of heals in combination with undeath so that your health gain is a burst on top of your hots, and it's an asset to be able to couple it with some way to cover your ass like negate, or cc.

It is however better suited to an early health top up function rather than an oh shjt button.

Jar_Ek

@Cathexis Well I am not a vamp so if undeath is required for dark deal to work then I'm stuffed. Tbh I am currently struggling to find space on my bars for dark deal.

My bar1 currently has the flurry morph that returns health (can't remember if it's bloodcraze or bloodthirst), rending slashes, hurricane, vigour, bound armour and dawnbreaker of smiting
Bar 2: shuffle, caltrops, surge, bound armour and a sword / board skill (depends on need as to which), overload (for 3rd bar)
OL bar: dark deal, defensive rune, rapid manoeuvres, and then some flex.

Makkir

The cast time makes me too susceptible to the bash dmg bonuses that stam users get.

Cathexis

Makkir wrote: »

The cast time makes me too susceptible to the bash dmg bonuses that stam users get.

I think the critical component is using it when your opponent isn't expecting it or using it when you have a tactical advantage, as much as you possibly can.

For one thing, blocking is essential to its effectiveness, which is why it synergizes so well with sword board. A lot of the time I will drop a stun or a knockdown or negate before dropping into DD spam, or when your opponent pulls off of you, or is facing away from you. Also, often you can rotate dodgerolling through and around your opponent and spamming 2 DDs. Line of sight also plays a significant role as well.

The important thing is taking advantage of every possible moment where your opponent isn't able to or actively trying to bash you. If they are trying to bash you, passive heal/buff rotate and use cc's or negate or atro because they will never do enough damage to seriously harm you and it will throw them on the defensive.

juhasman

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

@juhasman when you say you dont need it on your mag sorc do you mean you slot it but barely use it? Do you use surge or resto with that as the backup?

@NordSwordnBoard i dont need it on mag sorc becase i dont run out of magicka and to heal myself on PvP i am using resto which provides few nice bonuses and on PvE surge heal is enough. Also i dont have stamina issues.

cschwingeb14_ESO

If they made it instant cast, they would have to nerf the hell out of the resource return. Magicka sorcs should not be using DD as an emergency heal. That is what ward is for.

Stam sorcs are out of luck for a burst heal without 2h, just like most classes. But at least surge+Vigor is there.

Zenartista

dark deal is amazing on my medium armor magicka sorc.
decent heal and stupid resources

Mojomonkeyman

Dark deal is the single most powerful skill in the sorc arsenal. In pvp.

Learn how to use it, it`s worth it.

Jar_Ek

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Dark deal is the single most powerful skill in the sorc arsenal. In pvp.

Learn how to use it, it`s worth it.

Could you explain how to effectively use it? I just get interrupted or killed when I try.

Araviel2

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Dark deal is the single most powerful skill in the sorc arsenal. In pvp.

Learn how to use it, it`s worth it.

Could you explain how to effectively use it? I just get interrupted or killed when I try.

CC's/LoS/distance/dodge roll/shuffle,, yes shuffle, thanks to the stamina return of DD we can now run stamina support skills. even skills like Vigor can be made to work (its really not that bad of a heal even on a magica build, especially whit some major mending pots) and this opens up doors for so many new builds.

Mojomonkeyman

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Dark deal is the single most powerful skill in the sorc arsenal. In pvp.

Learn how to use it, it`s worth it.

Could you explain how to effectively use it? I just get interrupted or killed when I try.

Basics: Always prepare your DD with making sure surge/rally and vigor are active and then agressively use DD. Put the pressure on them to interrupt in time, while your hots keep you alive. Then toy around with it, some hints on what works quite well:

- dodge into dark deal (you will still come out positive stamina return wise even in 5h, non-penalty dodge of course)
- streak(stun) into dark deal (you can often get two subsequent DD of if your mag pool is largfe enough)

- my favorite: light/medium attack into DD into bash cancel (block cancel wont work, bash cancel will since it doesnt interupt the DD cast but instead just ends the animation as early as possible even if hit a bit too early) after half a second (the light attack will hide most of the animations initial "acceleation" and the bash will make sure you finish the animation off cleanly to be able to go offensive immediately without strange delays)

Almost nobody will realize early enough to interrupt your DD in time if you practuice and use the last tip, so you can use it offensively, while staying on your target.

Hope it helps, theres much more to discover.

Jar_Ek

Drat I thought I might get some tips on how to use it more effectively. Atm I struggle with it tbh, I am usually low on health and stamina when I think about using it... thats probably the biggest issue I guess. Maybe case of learn to play with it.

Just got back on and saw your post @Mojomonkeyman. Awesome that is exactly the sort of tips I was hoping for. Thankyou.

hrothbern

Good discussion to read
I think also that DD has opened many more possibilities and type of builds and playing styles for Sorcs, and certainly Stamina Sorcs.

Not wanting to derail this thread, but is anyone using Dark Conversion ?
I find it hard to think out builds where DC is better than DD.
It must be a build that is happy with a Stamina dump to get Magicka and the Heal.

Does that happen in PVP ?
I think not, Stamina is precious in PVP.
Perhaps some sort of a spamming Magicka Sorc Healer (incl AW Purge) behind the front line ?

Perhaps for a Sorc DD in a PVE Raid when he runs dry with Magicka ?

NordSwordnBoard

@hrothbern Stamsorcs are few and far between in pvp I think, but I have witnessed it being used. I started out having it drain from my stamina, then realized the error of my ways. The skill is supposed to refill the smallest two of your resource pools.

A month after the original post I use dark deal in pvp and like it. Its better than good, but not quite awesome. @Mojomonkeyman 's advice above is solid. I've learned to incorporate it into rotations better and can deal with the cast time ok. Its obvious, but using it after a cc to heal and regain stamina is great. Most people think your almost out of stamina and don't expect your next few dodge rolls. I feel like this has gained me some short term cirque du cyrodiil of my own even though I'm magsorc. It has saved me multiple times, and I like that I don't need a resto staff to accomplish that.

I still have issues with the cast time in vma, and might stop using it there until I beat it first. This is also an response issue tied to lag; in the sense that a heal + cast time + lag can leave you with double casts, no cast at all, or a delayed health bar reaction, making it that much more risky to depend on under intense pressure.

Waffennacht

In my build I use the stam cost (It is primarily stam) and use it to keep my magicka pool going.

I also run in have armor and have it healing me for 5k unbuffed by vitality etc...

I don't like relying on it as my only "solid" heal, I find the cast time to be more detrimental to an offensive strike, sometimes you need a mediocre amount of health to keep the push going. So I liks to pair it with vigor or rally

Jar_Ek

@Waffennacht isnt your build a hybrid? In which case magicka return for H ward whilst wearing non light armour makes alot of sense. The magicka return morph makes less sense as a pure stamina sorcerer as our magicka resource pool recovers reasonably quickly and we dont have many (any?) magicka spam dumps.

raasdal

Dark Deal is just fine.

If you use it in open field, you are asking for the interrupt, as much as someone hardcasting a frag. L2useskillscorrectly.

Dark Deal returns stamina/magicka and is as much a resource management tool as it is healing.

This skill is very good right now. It makes StamSorc king of resources in No CP campaign. Even DK cant follow. If this went instacast, it would be OP as hell.

Izaki

I'd love for it to function in the same way Vigor does. Over a shorter duration obviously. Like a 3 second HoT and ressource return. That way its not OP but its a solid heal in addition to wards. If the ressource return is split over 3 seconds it won't allow for all those "OP build" things (perma dodger magSorc) that people have stated.
In my opinion this would actually become the class defining defensive skill along with wards for magicka.
Now for stamina if its paired with Vigor you'd have a beast of a heal though and that's the only thing that makes this option seem not too good. But then think again: its unmodifiable by buffs/CPs but still affected by Battle Spirit. Which means that it would be a 4k heal over 3 seconds. So its not that OP at all.

Anyway thats my take on the direction where this skill should go. That way everyone is happy: its a over-time effect with an instant cast.

Waffennacht

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Waffennacht isnt your build a hybrid? In which case magicka return for H ward whilst wearing non light armour makes alot of sense. The magicka return morph makes less sense as a pure stamina sorcerer as our magicka resource pool recovers reasonably quickly and we dont have many (any?) magicka spam dumps.

@Jar_Ek that is correct

And what I've kind of been doing is Pairing Dark Deal/Conversion with Invasion / Other SnB stuns.

They are quick stuns that can normally be pulled off, last long enough to get the move off and relatively cheap, plus the Only Instant - melee - Hard CC in the game for Sorcs. I like it

jhharvest

Dark deal / conversion needs a chance to proc instant cast like frags. That makes sense, yeah?

Waffennacht

jhharvest wrote: »

Dark deal / conversion needs a chance to proc instant cast like frags. That makes sense, yeah?

Instant OP status

That being said...

Yes