Official Discussion Thread for "Update 11, Featuring Shadows of the Hist: Launch Details"

VerboseQuips

Contraptions wrote: »

The DLC seems really overpriced. For 1500 you're only getting two dungeons and a personality. That's it. Orsinium was a whole zone chock full of content and it was only 3000. I value these two dungeons at 500 at best honestly.

I really feel that the next DLC is mostly one big cash shop update. For people like me who don't fuss endlessly about silly little cosmetics like eyelashes or sparkly dresses there is nothing much to look forward to. Also don't like how you tied costume dyeing to subscriptions only, and the fact that the only way to change name/race/appearance is using real money. Really feels like nickel and diming to me. I don't like it.

I welcome character customization options, but not when they're locked behind paywalls. Give us a way to earn them in game please.

Well, we don't know how big the dungeons are, nor do we know how elaborate will be the lore they'll introduce, so maybe it'll be worth it. That said, I agree that only two dungeons seems a bit few for the price a priori.

The Collector Pack, however, is another story. Just look at the Hist Guar.

So far, we've had four types of mounts.
The regular ones, horses, which are the cheapest.
The exotic ones, guars, bears, senches, wolves, which are more expansive.
The regular magical ones, i.e. "upgraded" horses, which are even more expansive.
And then the exotic magical ones, "upgraded" exotic mounts. So far, only one had appeared, it was the Sar-m'Athra. It was excruciatingly expansive. From the lore, we can expect to see Hell Hound, Snow Wolves and Draugulfs at some point (the Draugulfs most probably during Halloween).
Now you have the second exotic magical mount to come into virtual existence, the Hist Guar, which is included in a pack with a pet and two dungeons, for the price of a regular magical mount.

Considering this, the collector pack suddenly doesn't seem overpriced at all to me.

nimander99

HELLB0UNDH0UND wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

"You can't fix stupid" said some guy in some movie once.

But you can keep tryin if'n ya want bro

Wasn't that comedian Ron White?

YES! Tyvm! I knew I had heard it I just couldn't remember where... Was driving me nutzor.

AndyTGD

Hah! A Crown Store only barber shop! lol

Not even giving us the option to use in-game gold to make minor changes. Everything, including the special hairstyles I expected were coming to the Crown Store (and who would blame them?). You know what? I saw this coming a mile off. Wanna bet player housing is also going to be locked behind some kind of paywall?

Thanks ZOS for rewarding your loyal fan-base, who have stuck around through mess after mess, and just wanted a reasonable way to get rid of that ridiculous facial hair they chose two years ago.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

Playing without subbing is exactly the same as it always was; playing with a sub gives you a bit more cosmetic liberty than before, and that's all.

I used to think like that too : I could live without crafting bag before, so I can so on living without it. But with all the new ingredients that came with the poisons and the new crafting styles, inventory management is becoming increasingly difficult, even when you're well organised. Espcially since ZOS, probably on purpose, doesn't offer extra bag space ingame.

Furthermore, you can tell now ingame who subs and who doesn't : non-subbers keep asking for breaks because of full bag. Subbed people don't even need to go to the bank/vendor more than once every 5 to 10 hours. Non-subbers still need it every 30 minutes and it's getting worse and worse. Playing without the crafting bag is a downgraded game experience. Or, if you prefer to look at the half full glass, playing with the crafting bag is an upgraded game experience.

I personally consider that I was literally forced to resub. Don't get me wrong, I think ESO is a fantastic game, and an overall rather cheap form of entertainment. Thus I'm fairly resilient with all this money-grabbing stuff. But I'm worried about the direction things are headed :
- people being "forced" (or very heavily encouraged...) to sub
- ... AFTER having been offered inventory management convenience items !!! (banker, vendor) which are now useless with the crafting bag...
- and will still have to spend extra crowns for such a basic feature like change of appearance !!!

For appearance changes I disagree with you : while I would not necessarily expect such a feature in a solo game with a beginning and an end, I believe it to be essential in a "neverending" game where longevity relies heavily on the players' capacity to create their own stories and visualize their own evolution, and using their imagination to create variations on the same content. Appearance is a great part of it, thus I believe barber shop should be a basic game feature, not gated behind either sub or crowns.

Look at costumes and pets : many are available in the store for crowns, but some are freely obtainable ingame. I believe the same should apply to inventory management utilities, costume dyes and barber shop stuff.

And above all, I fear that this "forced subbing/spending" is meant to compensate the fact that ZOS is running out of great new content of significant size, and will only release crumbles from now on. Hopefully I'm wrong... but Firor's recent interview about "releasing content in tiny bits" corroborates this theory...

anitajoneb17_ESO

VerboseQuips wrote: »

Another explaination for this change, which would be a much nicer one, could be that ZOS be asked by Beth to keep some secrets on Murkmire. Maybe TES6, officially scheduled for the 22.22.22 ( ), is supposed to explore the Black Marsh...

Now that's being optimistic

But I don't believe in this theory. It's 99,99% certain that Bethesda and ZOS have been coordinating their content since the beginning (even before Skyrim) so that they wouldn't overlap. Given the costs of development of a DLC/zone/lore section, they'll make sure nothing gets ditched. They'll coordinate everything beforehand.

petraeus1

Enodoc wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They're not really game features, they're services. Things that are entirely unneeded that exist only for QoL. You had full opportunity to create your character as you wanted during Character Creation. If you decide you want to change something at a later date, you shouldn't have done it wrong in the first place*.

* Not allowing for the camera rotation/zoom bug that was present at launch, as that was ZOS at fault; a free appearance token would be a nice gesture to fix early-adopter characters created incorrectly due to this bug.
* Also not allowing for the fact that ZOS are changing the racial passives. A free race change token would be a nice gesture to combat characters crated based on racial benefits that no longer exist.

@Enodoc , please allow me to completely disagree with you on this. Calling it "game feature" or "quality of life services" is pure rethorics.

The crafting bag is something game-changing for whoever is into farming/crafting/trading. That's 90% of players. Dyes and beauty parlor are game-changing features for whoever is sensitive to the appearance of their characters : again 90% of players. As to "do your char right in the first place", sorry but that's truly invalid. Everyone likes to change haircut or hair color, be it ingame or IRL, that's perfectly normal. And role players are entitled to make their character look older, sicker, healthier, fatter, thinner, whatever, depending on the story they're building for them.
Sure, you don't need crafting bags nor dyes nor new haircuts to reach top rankings in PvE or PvP. But you know just as well as I do that only a small percentage of players care about those things, and the vast majority enjoys the many, many aspects that ESO offers besides combat. And those are deeply modified by the presence or absence of such features.

The fact that these "features" (crafting bags, dyes, appearance changes) are behind a paywall separate from the DLC itself, or completely locked behind ESO+ changes the terms of the choices that was given to us by ZOS in March 2015 when TU launched. It was ONE GAME with TWO different payment methods. What we have now is TWO different game experiences, at two different prices. Playing without subbing now provides a clearly downgraded game experience.

I'm not angry (I simply resubbed... ), but I'm worried. Why do you think ZOS wants us to sub so badly and so massively ? For money, sure, but they always needed money, so why this drastic change now ? My theory is that they don't have enough content ready. They can't keep up the pace of 4 big DLCs a year, as promised. They can't deliver something big like Orsinium every three months. Therefore they'll have to deliver small, tiny bits of content, that cannot be priced highly in crowns (such as : these two dungeons for 1.5K crowns).

My sad guess is that we will be forced to sub and content-starved, just like we were from novembre 2014 until august 2015. Sad perspective.

Fair dos, thanks for providing a detailed opposition post!

On semantics - "game features" are something I would expect to be a required feature of the game, of which, Character Creation is one. Once you've created your character and started the game, I would never expect to be able to re-enter Character Creation again. Minor customisation features (ie, hairstyles, adornments, and the like) are a valid thing to change as you go along, and I agree with that, but changes beyond that are something I would not expect. That's why I would consider it a "QoL service" that you would need to pay real money for, and not a "game feature" that you would pay for with in-game gold.

The roleplay aspect is a good one, and something I hadn't thought of from that angle - for me, since there is limited passage of time in the game (compared to something like Fable II, for example, where decades pass as part of the story), my character wouldn't suddenly look older/sicker/etc, as effectively no time has passed.

Extra features for ESO Plus players that are persistent were sorely needed, so I'm not particularly bothered by that. There's a Crown Store alternative for costume dyes and the fact that there are so many colour combinations available through that is great. Considering ZOS weren't even sure whether they wanted to give us costume dyes at all, I think having a set choice of colour schemes is a good compromise. Playing without subbing is exactly the same as it always was; playing with a sub gives you a bit more cosmetic liberty than before, and that's all.

My perspective is different: they had an underdeveloped system (dye station that didn't cover Crown Store paid costumes? Don't tell me that was an oversight) and they staggered the release so they can monetize it. Maybe it's a malicious outlook, but for all intents and purposes I can't believe they didn't expect the feedback they got.

Another perspective: the fact that QOL features are introduced, suggests that the original systems worked subpar or lacked in a department. Monetizing them makes no sense in that regard.

As far as incentivizing ESO+ goes, I'm pretty sure many players came in because the subfee was dropped, and prefer B2P alternatives. Having perks locked behind a sub and get subpar B2P options in return (dye stamps? If you're going to monetize it this way, at least allow B2P players to choose their own colours), doesn't incentivize me to sub, it incentivizes me to buy less costumes.

Either way, I'm baffled that ZOS continually monetizes cosmetics and utility. People will say it's because of the conversion to B2P; I'd argue: it's still a B2P game, not a F2P game. ZOS is making money off box price, DLC sales, subfees and vanity items, monetizing these kinds of systems with no in-game alternatives is just greedy and unnecessary in my eyes: they were doing well without this income and there's other games with a less expansive business model that prove it can be done more consumer friendly (e.g. Guild Wars 2).

What price they ask for anything they develop is ultimately up to ZOS of course, but it boggles me that so many players so readily thumbs up this kind of stuff under the mantra 'as long as it's not P2W'. From a B2P/P2P hybrid, we can expect higher standards as to what they put in the cash store imo.

Enodoc

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Espcially since ZOS, probably on purpose, doesn't offer extra bag space ingame.

Yeah they do. You can get up to 140 more bag slots above the initial 60 solely from in-game gold. I wouldn't mind if they offered more bag space in-game, but they do allow you to purchase enough to more than triple your initial bag size.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Espcially since ZOS, probably on purpose, doesn't offer extra bag space ingame.

Yeah they do. You can get up to 140 more bag slots above the initial 60 solely from in-game gold. I wouldn't mind if they offered more bag space in-game, but they do allow you to purchase enough to more than triple your initial bag size.

No, that's not what I meant.

Yes you can expand bag space up to 200 slots and bank space up to 240 slots with ingame gold (or crown scrolls). Fine. But it's been the case for over a year, during which the number of items to be collected has exploded (new style items - most of them in 2 formats : raw and refined, new tiers of mats, new item sets to collect, and lately, a whole bunch of new alchemy ingredients for poisons). The maximum storage space has NOT been raised in line with this big increase in stuff to collect and keep. Only concession they made was to put our "collectibles" into the mementos section of our collection tab, thus lightening our inventories a bit.

So yeah I maintain my position : ZOS has, probably on purpose, NOT extended the storage space limits while expanding the number of items to be farmed, thus leading/forcing us into the crafting bag option, i.e. subscription.

AndyTGD

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Espcially since ZOS, probably on purpose, doesn't offer extra bag space ingame.

Yeah they do. You can get up to 140 more bag slots above the initial 60 solely from in-game gold. I wouldn't mind if they offered more bag space in-game, but they do allow you to purchase enough to more than triple your initial bag size.

No, that's not what I meant.

Yes you can expand bag space up to 200 slots and bank space up to 240 slots with ingame gold (or crown scrolls). Fine. But it's been the case for over a year, during which the number of items to be collected has exploded (new style items - most of them in 2 formats : raw and refined, new tiers of mats, new item sets to collect, and lately, a whole bunch of new alchemy ingredients for poisons). The maximum storage space has NOT been raised in line with this big increase in stuff to collect and keep. Only concession they made was to put our "collectibles" into the mementos section of our collection tab, thus lightening our inventories a bit.

So yeah I maintain my position : ZOS has, probably on purpose, NOT extended the storage space limits while expanding the number of items to be farmed, thus leading/forcing us into the crafting bag option, i.e. subscription.

dimensional

Enodoc wrote: »

There's a Crown Store alternative for costume dyes and the fact that there are so many colour combinations available through that is great. Considering ZOS weren't even sure whether they wanted to give us costume dyes at all, I think having a set choice of colour schemes is a good compromise. Playing without subbing is exactly the same as it always was; playing with a sub gives you a bit more cosmetic liberty than before, and that's all.

The problem with this "alternative" is that it is completely unappealing. I will never, ever buy one of these costume dye packs. The whole point of color customization is exactly that, *customization*. These dye packs won't contain a single color from the rare dye selection, which already removes most of the color I have unlocked and use. Furthermore, they are going to be randomly cycled out so you won't likely ever see a combo that you truly like, only a close approximation (and that's if you're lucky), using the washed out common and uncommon color choices. It's truly a terrible option. A better choice would be a dye pack that we could purchase that lets us pick out dyes exactly the way ESO+ members can, but consumes it upon use as usual. Segmenting the functionality of these two services is just a horrible choice for both the company and the players, as there is pretty much close to zero value on these dye packs as they are currently.

dimensional

VerboseQuips wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

The DLC seems really overpriced. For 1500 you're only getting two dungeons and a personality. That's it. Orsinium was a whole zone chock full of content and it was only 3000. I value these two dungeons at 500 at best honestly.

I really feel that the next DLC is mostly one big cash shop update. For people like me who don't fuss endlessly about silly little cosmetics like eyelashes or sparkly dresses there is nothing much to look forward to. Also don't like how you tied costume dyeing to subscriptions only, and the fact that the only way to change name/race/appearance is using real money. Really feels like nickel and diming to me. I don't like it.

I welcome character customization options, but not when they're locked behind paywalls. Give us a way to earn them in game please.

Well, we don't know how big the dungeons are, nor do we know how elaborate will be the lore they'll introduce, so maybe it'll be worth it. That said, I agree that only two dungeons seems a bit few for the price a priori.

The Collector Pack, however, is another story. Just look at the Hist Guar.

So far, we've had four types of mounts.
The regular ones, horses, which are the cheapest.
The exotic ones, guars, bears, senches, wolves, which are more expansive.
The regular magical ones, i.e. "upgraded" horses, which are even more expansive.
And then the exotic magical ones, "upgraded" exotic mounts. So far, only one had appeared, it was the Sar-m'Athra. It was excruciatingly expansive. From the lore, we can expect to see Hell Hound, Snow Wolves and Draugulfs at some point (the Draugulfs most probably during Halloween).
Now you have the second exotic magical mount to come into virtual existence, the Hist Guar, which is included in a pack with a pet and two dungeons, for the price of a regular magical mount.

Considering this, the collector pack suddenly doesn't seem overpriced at all to me.

It's definitely overpriced.

HELLB0UNDH0UND

dimensional wrote: »

VerboseQuips wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

The DLC seems really overpriced. For 1500 you're only getting two dungeons and a personality. That's it. Orsinium was a whole zone chock full of content and it was only 3000. I value these two dungeons at 500 at best honestly.

I really feel that the next DLC is mostly one big cash shop update. For people like me who don't fuss endlessly about silly little cosmetics like eyelashes or sparkly dresses there is nothing much to look forward to. Also don't like how you tied costume dyeing to subscriptions only, and the fact that the only way to change name/race/appearance is using real money. Really feels like nickel and diming to me. I don't like it.

I welcome character customization options, but not when they're locked behind paywalls. Give us a way to earn them in game please.

Well, we don't know how big the dungeons are, nor do we know how elaborate will be the lore they'll introduce, so maybe it'll be worth it. That said, I agree that only two dungeons seems a bit few for the price a priori.

The Collector Pack, however, is another story. Just look at the Hist Guar.

So far, we've had four types of mounts.
The regular ones, horses, which are the cheapest.
The exotic ones, guars, bears, senches, wolves, which are more expansive.
The regular magical ones, i.e. "upgraded" horses, which are even more expansive.
And then the exotic magical ones, "upgraded" exotic mounts. So far, only one had appeared, it was the Sar-m'Athra. It was excruciatingly expansive. From the lore, we can expect to see Hell Hound, Snow Wolves and Draugulfs at some point (the Draugulfs most probably during Halloween).
Now you have the second exotic magical mount to come into virtual existence, the Hist Guar, which is included in a pack with a pet and two dungeons, for the price of a regular magical mount.

Considering this, the collector pack suddenly doesn't seem overpriced at all to me.

It's definitely overpriced.

You two can say what you want, but the mounts definitely aren't expansive

Zaldan

Enodoc wrote: »

I agree that 1,000 Crowns would probably be enough, but I don't think any DLC will be less than 1,500. That's the amount you get for one month of ESO Plus, so it would make sense for that to be a lower limit. Consider: you decide to get a month of ESO Plus to test out the DLC. If you like it, you use that month's Crowns to buy it. Similarly, I wouldn't expect any DLC to be more than 4,500 Crowns, since that's the amount you get for ESO Plus in one quarter, and we get a new DLC every quarter.

Zaldan wrote: »

game features only available through cash shop, nasty

They're not really game features, they're services. Things that are entirely unneeded that exist only for QoL. You had full opportunity to create your character as you wanted during Character Creation. If you decide you want to change something at a later date, you shouldn't have done it wrong in the first place*.

* Not allowing for the camera rotation/zoom bug that was present at launch, as that was ZOS at fault; a free appearance token would be a nice gesture to fix early-adopter characters created incorrectly due to this bug.
* Also not allowing for the fact that ZOS are changing the racial passives. A free race change token would be a nice gesture to combat characters crated based on racial benefits that no longer exist.

love people who make assumptions or blanket judgements, I haven't done anything wrong but still doesn't make it less nasty, service/feature umm so it's not in game? love the asterisk btw do you work in advertising?

Unlikely_Ghostbuster

I have to say that their business model keeps "evolving" based on what they perceive players want. Sure, that makes us easily manipulated puppets, but hey, they have to make money to keep the game going and we DO get cool new features.

As an ESO+ subscriber, I was certain they wouldn't put the barbershop behind a paywall. I was sure ZOS would put "premium" items like special/limited hair styles, tattoos, and costumes behind a paywall for the simple reason that players who are seriously vain about their character's appearance *WILL* pay extra for the look they want. I hadn't considered these same players will also gladly pay real money for the whole kit. By making any redo of appearance, race, and class cost real $$$, ZOS will also make money off those players who won't be using the system more than once or twice a year.

I do agree with the assertion that a free "token" should be included when the system drops. Way back when, I played the first week of early access when the character creator was bugged-out, so my main character's appearance is not perfectly the way I want it. I'd bought the Imperial Edition so I could access the game early, so I wasn't going to sit around *not* playing for however many days/weeks it took the developers to fix the character creator. That's a good reason to give players one free "token" to use new character customization feature, but it's not the only good reason (or even the best). Giving people a hands-on look at what they can do with this new feature (if you don't want to fuss with the PTS, that is) will encourage players to use the feature, AGAIN (and pay for it). I hate to make ZOS sound so nefarious, like a drug dealer, but they'll get way more "repeat business" if the first taste is free.

Also, I agree they're working and reworking the prices because larger DLCs are getting less frequent, but I don't think it's because they're "short" on new zones. I think the new zones are just taking a lot longer to do, given the dozen or so changes to the game system that are pending. Data mining has revealed Vvardenfell is currently in development. That's probably going to be as big as Wrothgar. Consider ZOS is also ironing out "Tamriel One" implementation details, they're working on housing, they're trying to get LFG working properly, they're working on dueling & PvP arenas, they're updating gear sets in existing dungeons, and also they're *STILL* diligently fixing bugs. All things considered, I fully expect larger DLCs to become less and less frequent.

Hence the moves to "encourage" ESO+ subscriptions, either by preying upon player vanity, by making features such as the crafting bag exclusive to subscribers, and/or making it an economically smarter decision to subscribe to ESO+ and get *everything* instead of buying crowns to unlock paid features and DLC, piecemeal. Given, I don't like it (and I'm a subscriber), but from a shrewd business perspective, it makes sense.

Unfortunately, if I have pegged ZOS's motives accurately, then in all likelihood, housing will also be behind a paywall (like several others have predicted) because housing will clearly be a QoL feature, and not an integral mechanic to the game. I still maintain that it's a smarter business model to give ALL players access to the new features, minus premium content (if only to get us hooked). Players without "housing" who have no intention of spending crowns will probably do just fine without ever taking advantage of the new feature, and they may never be enticed to pay for housing because they (quite literally) won't know what they're missing. Give them the option to buy a house without an ESO+ subscription, but put all the really nice decor in the Crown Store, and ZOS will surely make a whole lot more money. People often don't realize how obsessively vain they are until they're given the option to explore it.

Again, giving the first taste for free is a good business decision just so people can discover they like it. That's why Baskin Robbins lets you get those little taster spoons, right? Ya -- ZOS, you're not drug dealers. You're Baskin Robbins.

Talonblaze

Admittedly, was rather disappointed to hear about Outfits (particularly from the Crown Store) only being dye-able from these Dye Packs unless a Plus member. Was really looking forward to that and the news prior was quite hopeful.

It was the lack of colour customization that deterred me from buying some outfit sets to begin with, now apparently I have to spend crowns twice for a outfit and then a colour? Preselected colours at that. Not exactly encouraging to buy outfits in the future still.
Ah well, save and wait I suppose.

Xsorus

1500 crowns is pretty fair; that's what you get for 1 month of subscribing.

I'm more interested in how much Race Change will cost.

rootimus

AndyTGD wrote: »

Hah! A Crown Store only barber shop! lol
[snip]
Thanks ZOS for rewarding your loyal fan-base, who have stuck around through mess after mess, and just wanted a reasonable way to get rid of that ridiculous facial hair they chose two years ago.

Doesn't surprise me, sadly, given their general attitude towards the player base. If they're not going to let NPC vendors sell crown stuff, they should at least let players re-sell what they buy.

Kesstryl

Appearance Change Tokens! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!!!!!!!!

Waseem

1500 crowns for a game DLC is expensive
4000 crowns for a mount... nobody cares at all.. its a mount.. not a DLC

Fedaykin_CZ

Changing race is great - i want this

What i did not like in last patch is that they give motifs to thieves guild quests - when everyone has already finished that content. And seems like they will do it again as there are some Dark brotherhood motifs announced. This is embarrassing way how to make us play that quests again.

KimberlyannKitsuragi

Eventhough I sub, I still have trouble managing my inventory. I save everything for research purposes. Shame we can't put armor in our craft bag since I personally use it for research only