Evasion / Dodge Chance is Very Bad For PvP

gibous

In a game with an active combat system, it is not consistent to allow for passive RNG dodging by way of casting an ability. The game already has a way of making single-target attacks miss the player - dodge rolling - initiated consciously by the player pressing a button.

Furthermore, why is there a buff in this game without a corresponding debuff? You can debuff movement speed, healing, spell & weapon damage, but not dodge chance. Shouldn't there be an accuracy stat, CP to spec into, ability debuff or enchantment to counter evasion?

Why can't shuffle remove snares and grant minor expedition? This would keep in line with the idea of medium armor players being agile in combat.

Evasion is a vestigial RPG stat that has no place alongside an active dodge roll mechanic.

Serenityx

Not every buff has an associated debuff. Some examples are savagery/prophecy which increase critical ratings (no skill/ability reduces crit chance). Also intellect/fortitude/endurance buffs which give bonuses to resource regen, afaik no abilitys reduce regen only some ways to reduce resource pools (some siege weapons for example).

Evasion is sort of a utility buff like the others I just mentioned, it would feel strange to me to debuff someones dodge chance or crit chance.

That said, I do feel like the dodge roll mechanic/dodging in general in this game is not very reliable. Way too often it seems to be caused by the target having simply moved just a meter or so outside of your abilitys range between the split second you activate the ability, rather than the targets evasion (or even dodge rolling) buff/dodge chance resulting in the "dodged" mechanic. This is almost entirely a PvP problem though, and I dont think increasing your "accuracy" or decreasing anothers dodge ratio would fix the real underlying issue there...

RandalMarrs

Ahh leave it alone. PvP mechanics cannot determine everything. Tanks use this in PvE because they have to block pretty often.

Oompuh

RandalMarrs wrote: »

Ahh leave it alone. PvP mechanics cannot determine everything. Tanks use this in PvE because they have to block pretty often.

They may take my stamina recovery, but they may never take my dodging!! *Scottish battle roar*

...


But really, as a Tava's Tank, I need dodge change to get Ulti and dodge rolling doesnt cut it

Waffennacht

Poison can debuff crit ratings...

gibous

Serenityx wrote: »

Not every buff has an associated debuff. Some examples are savagery/prophecy which increase critical ratings (no skill/ability reduces crit chance). Also intellect/fortitude/endurance buffs which give bonuses to resource regen, afaik no abilitys reduce regen only some ways to reduce resource pools (some siege weapons for example).

Evasion is sort of a utility buff like the others I just mentioned, it would feel strange to me to debuff someones dodge chance or crit chance.

That said, I do feel like the dodge roll mechanic/dodging in general in this game is not very reliable. Way too often it seems to be caused by the target having simply moved just a meter or so outside of your abilitys range between the split second you activate the ability, rather than the targets evasion (or even dodge rolling) buff/dodge chance resulting in the "dodged" mechanic. This is almost entirely a PvP problem though, and I dont think increasing your "accuracy" or decreasing anothers dodge ratio would fix the real underlying issue there...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This is indeed a pvp problem which is why I have posted it in the pvp section.

The game now has poisons introduced which increase magicka/stamina cost of abilities, which is more or less the same thing as a debuff to resource regeneration. So I don't think your example fits.

I would say that dodge chance is more akin to physical/spell resist, both of which can be buffed and countered.

I've also never heard of anyone ever saying the enemy had too much crit, whereas dodge chance seems to be a very common complaint.

gibous

RandalMarrs wrote: »

Ahh leave it alone. PvP mechanics cannot determine everything. Tanks use this in PvE because they have to block pretty often.

I'm not suggesting mobs/bosses be able to debuff a PvE tank using evasion in this PvP forum.

Oompuh

gibous wrote: »

RandalMarrs wrote: »

Ahh leave it alone. PvP mechanics cannot determine everything. Tanks use this in PvE because they have to block pretty often.

I'm not suggesting mobs/bosses be able to debuff a PvE tank using evasion in this PvP forum.

The majority of your post isnt about debuffing dodge chance.

Why can't shuffle remove snares and grant minor expedition? This would keep in line with the idea of medium armor players being agile in combat.

Evasion is a vestigial RPG stat that has no place alongside an active dodge roll mechanic.

This would kill tanks in PvE. We cant actively dodge roll with the blocking changes. We can't proc Tava's with dodge rolling, its not practical. A 20% dodge chance is a 20% reduce cost because we get a free "block" with 0 damage taken every 5 hits.

Lord-Otto

Remember how Cinderstorm was stripped off its dodge chance because magicka DKs having a small stationary evasion move is way more OP than stamina DKs and NBs having a completely mobile one with snare immunity?
xD
Balanced by Wroebel!
Love that guy!
xDDD

arkansas_ESO

Serenityx wrote: »

Not every buff has an associated debuff. Some examples are savagery/prophecy which increase critical ratings (no skill/ability reduces crit chance). Also intellect/fortitude/endurance buffs which give bonuses to resource regen, afaik no abilitys reduce regen only some ways to reduce resource pools (some siege weapons for example).

Aren't there poisons that reduce your target's spell/weapon damage and crit chance? It's a consumable, but at least it's there.

Also, I agree completely with the OP, and I say this as somebody with two stam characters. It's just no fun going to attack somebody and having all of your attacks miss due to unlucky RNG. It makes me feel like I'm back to playing Morrowind, where you'd swing your swords ten times at somebody and miss every time. I'd be all for removing passive dodge chance buffs like Evasion and Shuffle and greatly reducing the cost of dodge roll as a result.

Vangy

Sure, give me a 15k stamina shield since u mag users have harness now and Ill let u take shuffle away.

Erondil

Its one of those very few skills that work better in outnumbered situations than in outnumbering situations, yet you want to nerf it and promote numbers further more. Thank you for showing what kind of player you are.

heystreethawk

Vangy wrote: »

Sure, give me a 15k stamina shield since u mag users have harness now and Ill let u take shuffle away.

In order to rock 15k harness you would need like

64,500 magicka to get a 21,500 base shield outside of Cyrodiil, but factoring in 3% bonus to shield per LA pieces, assuming 5 light, 15% bonus brings you to 24,725

Then 100 points into Bastion -> 25% extra shield -> 30,906 shield -> 15,453 shield in Cyrodiil

It's probably easier to get a 15k bone shield honestly since I don't recall it ever being hit with battle spirit xD

Evergnar

I'd prefer to have dodge chance removed all together from skills. Limit dodge chance to specific armor sets only.

kadar

Vangy wrote: »

Sure, give me a 15k stamina shield since u mag users have harness now and Ill let u take shuffle away.

Erondil wrote: »

Its one of those very few skills that work better in outnumbered situations than in outnumbering situations, yet you want to nerf it and promote numbers further more. Thank you for showing what kind of player you are.

Hmm interesting points.

Magicka builds are able to build for maximum damage and maintain high survivability due to shield mechanics. Stamina builds having access to Shuffle is one way that they can achieve some semblance of the same.

I'm in favor of mechanics that allow smaller numbers to fight larger ones. The only advantage larger numbers should have is just that: larger numbers (buuuut, off topic, they also have free mitigation from AOE cap).

alex394053

Nerf shuffle thread?

Xvorg

Evasion is the reason why I'm starting to use soul strike as Ulti

Serenityx

l

gibous wrote: »

Serenityx wrote: »

Not every buff has an associated debuff. Some examples are savagery/prophecy which increase critical ratings (no skill/ability reduces crit chance). Also intellect/fortitude/endurance buffs which give bonuses to resource regen, afaik no abilitys reduce regen only some ways to reduce resource pools (some siege weapons for example).

Evasion is sort of a utility buff like the others I just mentioned, it would feel strange to me to debuff someones dodge chance or crit chance.

That said, I do feel like the dodge roll mechanic/dodging in general in this game is not very reliable. Way too often it seems to be caused by the target having simply moved just a meter or so outside of your abilitys range between the split second you activate the ability, rather than the targets evasion (or even dodge rolling) buff/dodge chance resulting in the "dodged" mechanic. This is almost entirely a PvP problem though, and I dont think increasing your "accuracy" or decreasing anothers dodge ratio would fix the real underlying issue there...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This is indeed a pvp problem which is why I have posted it in the pvp section.

The game now has poisons introduced which increase magicka/stamina cost of abilities, which is more or less the same thing as a debuff to resource regeneration. So I don't think your example fits.

I would say that dodge chance is more akin to physical/spell resist, both of which can be buffed and countered.

I've also never heard of anyone ever saying the enemy had too much crit, whereas dodge chance seems to be a very common complaint.

My bad, Im a console pleb so I forgot about poisons. I see your point their is no debuff for dodge chance (or some sort of accuracy stat), Im still not sure how I would feel about such a debuff being implemented as an ability, however an armor set or something I could see having some sort of bonus that negates others dodge chances. If said bonus is applied with 5 pieces of the set it should completely negate enemy dodge chance to make it worth running.

It would be interesting to see how that affects the range of abilitys though, like I was saying it seems like the game calculates an ability that has been activated slightly before an enemy is out of range as a "dodge" rather than canceling the ability as a result of lag/general latency in Cyrodil.

gibous

Erondil wrote: »

Its one of those very few skills that work better in outnumbered situations than in outnumbering situations, yet you want to nerf it and promote numbers further more. Thank you for showing what kind of player you are.

Not much of a point - of course evasion is not needed by a zerg when they are spamming healing springs, breath of life, barrier etc. Also, your assumption that I want to promote numbers is totally off base. If you played on the NA server, you would know that I play solo or at most with a couple other people in very small groups. Evasion is not a mechanic to combat balling up or zerging - it just dumbs down pvp combat in my view.

I'd love to see balling up addressed in this game, but there are other ways of doing it than allowing RNG dodge chance. Active abilities have been altered like purge and barrier - but prox det pretty much backfired. What about some kind of "battle formation" status that is applied to groups over 8 or 12 where they receive less healing and deal less damage? It would be sort of an amendment to battle spirit.

gibous

The_Outsider wrote: »

Magicka builds are able to build for maximum damage and maintain high survivability due to shield mechanics. Stamina builds having access to Shuffle is one way that they can achieve some semblance of the same.

Magicka builds that aim for max damage always end up being weak with stamina, both the pool and regen. Also the reason why magicka builds aim for max damage is to stay competitive with stamina players who can stack damage and then just run drink and mundus for regen. A magicka user can't really run drink because having 27-30k max magicka loses too much damage compared to a 40k pool with only ~3k spell dmg.

I'm not against the medium armor ability providing defense to players I just don't think it should be RNG dodge chance.

Vangy

heystreethawk wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Sure, give me a 15k stamina shield since u mag users have harness now and Ill let u take shuffle away.

In order to rock 15k harness you would need like

64,500 magicka to get a 21,500 base shield outside of Cyrodiil, but factoring in 3% bonus to shield per LA pieces, assuming 5 light, 15% bonus brings you to 24,725

Then 100 points into Bastion -> 25% extra shield -> 30,906 shield -> 15,453 shield in Cyrodiil

It's probably easier to get a 15k bone shield honestly since I don't recall it ever being hit with battle spirit xD

I didnt say I want harness. I want a 15k stamina shield

In all honesty though that 15k was just a random type haha. Id be happy with a stamina equivalent of harness that scales more off weapon damage than max stam since stam users typically have much smaller stam pools but bigger weapon damage vs magicka toons.

SupremeTravie

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Remember how Cinderstorm was stripped off its dodge chance because magicka DKs having a small stationary evasion move is way more OP than stamina DKs and NBs having a completely mobile one with snare immunity?
xD
Balanced by Wroebel!
Love that guy!
xDDD

It's interesting to see that this is automatically an NB fault like everything else. If you are referring to shuffle its clearly not an NB skill while the NB skill double take lets you have a dodge chance and increased movement speed its not snare immune. So in my book its completely fair seeing how shuffle is available to all classes.

juhasman

Having additional miss chance out of roll dodge isnt bad it makes fight more unpredictable and this is how PvP should work You need to react fast at current situation not creating a plans 10 seconds further. But I also think 20% is too much to have it just like this in spammable and easy to get abilities. In my opinion 12% would be better. We can call this 12% minor evasion and give it to shuffle and for example give major evasion which gives 25-30% miss to some ultimates with cost around 200 ulti.

KenaPKK

Ew why are there PvE lurkers in a PvP balance thread in the PvP forums?

Reality check: you don't balance player skills and sets around PvE ever because you can't control players. It's lazy and neglectful design. You balance player skills and sets around PvP and then balance PvE encounters around the resulting skills and sets. That way everything ends up nice and balanced.

I remember @FENGRUSH published a poignant video pseudo-rant on this exact subject a long time ago.

Skinzz

SupremeTravie wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Remember how Cinderstorm was stripped off its dodge chance because magicka DKs having a small stationary evasion move is way more OP than stamina DKs and NBs having a completely mobile one with snare immunity?
xD
Balanced by Wroebel!
Love that guy!
xDDD

It's interesting to see that this is automatically an NB fault like everything else. If you are referring to shuffle its clearly not an NB skill while the NB skill double take lets you have a dodge chance and increased movement speed its not snare immune. So in my book its completely fair seeing how shuffle is available to all classes.

Plus i rather use stam to buff up then use magicka for double take. Id rather save my magika for cloak and fear.

Fubar8

This must be joke or smth.
more than 5 of my 10 fragments go to space and float in there

Toc de Malsvi

Fubar8 wrote: »

This must be joke or smth.
more than 5 of my 10 fragments go to space and float in there

This isn't so much shuffle as dodge roll having a huge window and all projectiles moving incredibly slowly. It does appear though that shuffle dodge projectiles more efficiently than it dodges direct attacks. Also Major Evasion will dodge DoT ticks which is BS and really poor design.

dead1ycool

I've always thought evasion was the biggest mistake this game made. Increasing automatic dodge rate has nothing to do with skill. They should make evasion just remove snares and cut the cost of dodge rolling by 50%. That would be really helpful to stamina players and base it off skill of knowing when to dodge roll.

Forestd16b14_ESO

No penetration effects are bad for PvP

leepalmer95

I still think evasion shouldn't be allowed to dodge ults.

There should be a cooldown of like 1-2 seconds on it. I tried to reverb a guy in a duel yesterday and he shuffle dodges it 4 times in a row... cost me like 10k stamina as well.

Been a few times where i've tried to finish a guy with an ult and they rng dodge it. Or a i go to execute someone and they rng dodge it twice and then heal...

Also it needs changing to what it currently is, if something proc's the dodge currently you then dodge everything for the next .5s or something

If i go to light attack, heoric and bash someone and they dodge the light attack then my heroic and bash miss as well.

Imagine if the tooltip said: '20% chance to dodge incoming damage, when proc you also dodge everything for 0.5s, this skill has no cooldown' How OP does that sound.

This goes for all major evasion btw not just shuffle.

bowmanz607

love it. nb have been using dodge chance since beta. evasion has been in game since beta. streamers start using it after it drops and everyone starts yelling about it.