What's with these awful Templars?!

dodgehopper_ESO

Snape2255 wrote: »

All I have been seeing recently is a horde of Templars who enter any fight only using Jesus Beam. Like seriously...I could be on my sorc, full health and full shields with NO ONE around me and a Templar just starts popping Jesus Beam on me. What's the deal with that?! I've basically got 200% health at that time, how is Jesus Beam effective for them whatsoever?

As someone whose first character was a Templar, and who mains one quite regularly, it frustrates me to no end to see this. I use the skill myself but if I see their health go anywhere above the 30% mark I cancel it immediately because there are more effective skills to use at that point. Even if they dark flare spammed it wouldn't bother me as much, it's just this mass of Templars who spam nothing but Jesus Beam even when you're full health. They're always v16s too. Like seriously guys this tickles me and you're on your own, or no one else is attacking me. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

It frustrates me just to see play so shockingly awful. Take yourselves to the side and have a word. Soon.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

It makes me chuckle. I was pvp-ing last night in the hills around Sejanus and there was one Templar who kept RD-ing me when I was at full health. I think the reason people do that though is to create fear and waste your time. The reality is though I could more or less ignore him EXCEPT when his mob would roll closer toward me. That was when I needed to be careful because I knew if I got dragon leapt or feared he'd get a kill. I think these guys are trying to play a psychological game, because even they must know their damage when I'm at 85%+ health is worthless.

Wreuntzylla

timidobserver wrote: »

The only valid reason to use it on a 100% health Sorc with full shields is 999+ ping.

You, sir, are a novice at kill spam stealing.

Kas

there are multiple reasons for 100% jesus beams:

1) perma dodging target (probably also running shuffle). the dps at 100% life is terrible but missing is worse
2) healer builds (with or without their group who could only fit one offensive spell)
3) grouped templars who only have one skill form the dawn of wrath line and wnat to buff their allies through the illuminate passive
4) group leaders marking a target for assist
5) templars with only mostly meele skilsl who built their buff house and an enemy with no range that doesn't want to engage (e.g. s+b / 2hand stam dks who may or may not spam wings in addition)
6) ... yeah well, bad players, too

danno8

Kas wrote: »

there are multiple reasons for 100% jesus beams:

1) perma dodging target (probably also running shuffle). the dps at 100% life is terrible but missing is worse
2) healer builds (with or without their group who could only fit one offensive spell)
3) grouped templars who only have one skill form the dawn of wrath line and wnat to buff their allies through the illuminate passive
4) group leaders marking a target for assist
5) templars with only mostly meele skilsl who built their buff house and an enemy with no range that doesn't want to engage (e.g. s+b / 2hand stam dks who may or may not spam wings in addition)
6) ... yeah well, bad players, too

Hit the nail on the head.

Only time I use RD at full health is with DK wing spammers, since I would like to not kill myself thanks, and Shuffle using dodge rolling stamina builds, since I would like to hit my target more than 25% of the time.

All other times it is by accident, since target lock is worthless now, or when I began to hit RD the target has healed to full or near-full in that split second (happens all the time).

Also, rarely, I use RD at full health to lure the target into thinking I am an idiot they can kill easily. Admittedly, they are sometimes correct, but not always!

Snape2255

Kas wrote: »

there are multiple reasons for 100% jesus beams:

1) perma dodging target (probably also running shuffle). the dps at 100% life is terrible but missing is worse
2) healer builds (with or without their group who could only fit one offensive spell)
3) grouped templars who only have one skill form the dawn of wrath line and wnat to buff their allies through the illuminate passive
4) group leaders marking a target for assist
5) templars with only mostly meele skilsl who built their buff house and an enemy with no range that doesn't want to engage (e.g. s+b / 2hand stam dks who may or may not spam wings in addition)
6) ... yeah well, bad players, too

Valid points, admittedly. It still doesn't explain why I've had numerous Templars spamming nothing but Jesus Beam on my fully-shielded Sorc which has an entirely blue health bar. The last option seems most appropriate.

I can fully appreciate using it for a bit of damage against reflect spammers, and I can understand against dodge roll abusers too (although I personally have other tactics to deal with them).

It's still more aimed at the ones who feel it's okay to open with it, in the middle of nowhere, with no one else around, against full health targets.

Oh well, free AP I suppose

leepalmer95

I still think jesus beam should be dodge roll able, every other execute is.

If i'm not on my nb or a templar i've literally got to hope theres some LoS around otherwise i'll not be able to heal in time if i'm around 50%~. Assuming there more than 1 person or me including the full life jesus beam spammer.

Wasn't the idea of toppling charge and teleport strike being made dodge roll able because they were strong by going through it and basically making a stamina characters main defence useless.

I'm sure templar can just use spears to hit a dodge roller, it's an aoe and it will stun them.

AfkNinja

Snape2255 wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

there are multiple reasons for 100% jesus beams:

1) perma dodging target (probably also running shuffle). the dps at 100% life is terrible but missing is worse
2) healer builds (with or without their group who could only fit one offensive spell)
3) grouped templars who only have one skill form the dawn of wrath line and wnat to buff their allies through the illuminate passive
4) group leaders marking a target for assist
5) templars with only mostly meele skilsl who built their buff house and an enemy with no range that doesn't want to engage (e.g. s+b / 2hand stam dks who may or may not spam wings in addition)
6) ... yeah well, bad players, too

Valid points, admittedly. It still doesn't explain why I've had numerous Templars spamming nothing but Jesus Beam on my fully-shielded Sorc which has an entirely blue health bar. The last option seems most appropriate.

I can fully appreciate using it for a bit of damage against reflect spammers, and I can understand against dodge roll abusers too (although I personally have other tactics to deal with them).

It's still more aimed at the ones who feel it's okay to open with it, in the middle of nowhere, with no one else around, against full health targets.

Oh well, free AP I suppose

It's because bad players have been lead to believe it is broken OP by people spamming the forums for a nerf, so they use it in all scenarios expecting it to dominate. But hey, like you said, free AP.

Pomaikai

FUD

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt. I can stand on a keep wall with extended range and scare off DK's intent on leaping up on the wall. I can scare players into moving far enough away from the keep walls to make them easier to hit with siege. I can fire it into bridge groups who are taking constant fire from other ranged magicka, bow, and siege attacks and pick off players who let their health get too low, plus with VD I can take out a few more. I usually drop an Ice Comet into the bridge group followed by Beams for greatest effect. When running with a group, I can finish off players who are shuffling around and being hard to kill. It absolutely has its uses, but it's not a cure all.

The_Great_Maldini

Snape2255 wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Do you often dodge roll, break LoS and/or use Shuffle?

If so, spamming an ability that can't be dodged makes sense.

I do, yes, however if any of the remotely decent Templars I play with/against can adjust accordingly, I find it difficult to believe that the vast majority have to resort to the spam of that skill.

The shuffle dodge exploit is the biggest thing to overcome, however it's still doable and if you're playing effectively you can melt people without having to spam Jesus Beam. It just seems that they can only run in zergs and spam that, if they're caught alone they don't know what to do

Snape2255 wrote: »

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Do you often dodge roll, break LoS and/or use Shuffle?

If so, spamming an ability that can't be dodged makes sense.

I do, yes, however if any of the remotely decent Templars I play with/against can adjust accordingly, I find it difficult to believe that the vast majority have to resort to the spam of that skill.

The shuffle dodge exploit is the biggest thing to overcome, however it's still doable and if you're playing effectively you can melt people without having to spam Jesus Beam. It just seems that they can only run in zergs and spam that, if they're caught alone they don't know what to do

I find that a lightning staff heavy channeled attack is the thing against perma-blockers and rollers...especially as a sorc.

Snape2255

Crushing Shock too. I've never seen someone "dodge" that.

danno8

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I'm sure templar can just use spears to hit a dodge roller, it's an aoe and it will stun them.

You need to be clairvoyant to hit a single target with Blazing Spear. Especially a fast moving dodge roller.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Pomaikai wrote: »

FUD

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt. I can stand on a keep wall with extended range and scare off DK's intent on leaping up on the wall. I can scare players into moving far enough away from the keep walls to make them easier to hit with siege. I can fire it into bridge groups who are taking constant fire from other ranged magicka, bow, and siege attacks and pick off players who let their health get too low, plus with VD I can take out a few more. I usually drop an Ice Comet into the bridge group followed by Beams for greatest effect. When running with a group, I can finish off players who are shuffling around and being hard to kill. It absolutely has its uses, but it's not a cure all.

Exactly! There are plenty of times where I use the Jesus Beam as a scare tactic. I could shoot fire balls all day from the top of the keep, but DPS or not, firing lasers gets the point across better. It also creates a bunch of agro on myself intentionally so that my guildies can repair walls.

Also, the rest of the time I may hit you with it while you're at 100% are either because I'm blindly firing into a crowd (it works), or I tried hitting the guy next to you.

Not every time someone does something that is illogical for DPS means it's stupid.

leepalmer95

danno8 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I'm sure templar can just use spears to hit a dodge roller, it's an aoe and it will stun them.

You need to be clairvoyant to hit a single target with Blazing Spear. Especially a fast moving dodge roller.

There an option next patch to instant use an aoe and not get the targeting up, pretty sure it won't be too difficult to gap close then throw it at your feet.

Lucifer_Malice

Snape2255 wrote: »

All I have been seeing recently is a horde of Templars who enter any fight only using Jesus Beam. Like seriously...I could be on my sorc, full health and full shields with NO ONE around me and a Templar just starts popping Jesus Beam on me. What's the deal with that?! I've basically got 200% health at that time, how is Jesus Beam effective for them whatsoever?

As someone whose first character was a Templar, and who mains one quite regularly, it frustrates me to no end to see this. I use the skill myself but if I see their health go anywhere above the 30% mark I cancel it immediately because there are more effective skills to use at that point. Even if they dark flare spammed it wouldn't bother me as much, it's just this mass of Templars who spam nothing but Jesus Beam even when you're full health. They're always v16s too. Like seriously guys this tickles me and you're on your own, or no one else is attacking me. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

It frustrates me just to see play so shockingly awful. Take yourselves to the side and have a word. Soon.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

My Temp hits hard with JB, but only as an execute. Are you saying that can't play or are you tired of dying to the JB?

david31741

You can imagine how much hate spam I get for using RD. Some people don't understand, so here are some thoughts:

• Spamming RD? How bout spamming Poison Arrow - Wrecking Blow - Frags - Ambush - why is RD any different and "skill-less"?
  
• "You are using RD on full health?!?! wtf?" Well, RD is not so easy to target WHO YOU WANT it to target, especially when there are many people around AND sometimes roll dodgers or DK wings give you no other option - sometimes it is used to highlight the next target ...BUT mostly -- what other DPS options do you have against roll dodgers & DK's? Not many viable ones. It also makes you a huge target - a homing beacon for everyone to come kill.

Frankly, a Magika Templar is *** as dps in pvp. Any half decent DK you can't kill & Sorcs - newp. So you have NB's and other Templars. Thank goodness NB's are all over the place. Oh and my 10k stamina doesn't help me for *** while stam classes appear to be able to roll dodge infinitly while instantly breaking any CC I put on them - while then using stamina to wrecking blow/execute me. Oh yeah its great fun and RD is a problem?

arkansas_ESO

It's pretty sad, as ZOS has designed the skill to where it's pretty much an "I win" button in group PVP, so these players have never had to figure out how to anything but buff up and spam Jesus Beam. Even good players who have rerolled Templar (cuz FOTM) are guilty of doing this as the game's at a point to where, for 99% of fights, they don't have to know how to do anything else.

david31741

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's pretty sad, as ZOS has designed the skill to where it's pretty much an "I win" button in group PVP, so these players have never had to figure out how to anything but buff up and spam Jesus Beam. Even good players who have rerolled Templar (cuz FOTM) are guilty of doing this as the game's at a point to where, for 99% of fights, they don't have to know how to do anything else.

seriously - just log out. QQ

Dredlord

Snape2255 wrote: »

All I have been seeing recently is a horde of Templars who enter any fight only using Jesus Beam. Like seriously...I could be on my sorc, full health and full shields with NO ONE around me and a Templar just starts popping Jesus Beam on me. What's the deal with that?! I've basically got 200% health at that time, how is Jesus Beam effective for them whatsoever?

As someone whose first character was a Templar, and who mains one quite regularly, it frustrates me to no end to see this. I use the skill myself but if I see their health go anywhere above the 30% mark I cancel it immediately because there are more effective skills to use at that point. Even if they dark flare spammed it wouldn't bother me as much, it's just this mass of Templars who spam nothing but Jesus Beam even when you're full health. They're always v16s too. Like seriously guys this tickles me and you're on your own, or no one else is attacking me. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

It frustrates me just to see play so shockingly awful. Take yourselves to the side and have a word. Soon.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

Congrats on your "sore winner" award, it's not easy to get.

It takes a special kind of person to complain about people you beat in pvp...

Dredlord

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I still think jesus beam should be dodge roll able, every other execute is.

That is the exact reason it should not be dodgeable....

FYI its the only channelled execute too, yeah its gonna be a bit of a brain teaser for you but if you wrestle with it long enough i think you can get the idea.

arkansas_ESO

Dredlord wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I still think jesus beam should be dodge roll able, every other execute is.

That is the exact reason it should not be dodgeable....

FYI its the only channelled execute too, yeah its gonna be a bit of a brain teaser for you but if you wrestle with it long enough i think you can get the idea.

It's also the longest ranged execute and begins it's execute range at 30%, which is better than every other execute in the game.

arkansas_ESO

david31741 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's pretty sad, as ZOS has designed the skill to where it's pretty much an "I win" button in group PVP, so these players have never had to figure out how to anything but buff up and spam Jesus Beam. Even good players who have rerolled Templar (cuz FOTM) are guilty of doing this as the game's at a point to where, for 99% of fights, they don't have to know how to do anything else.

seriously - just log out. QQ

Wow, really constructive counterpoint. You've changed my view completely on Jesus Beam, good job!

tplink3r1

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I still think jesus beam should be dodge roll able, every other execute is.

That is the exact reason it should not be dodgeable....

FYI its the only channelled execute too, yeah its gonna be a bit of a brain teaser for you but if you wrestle with it long enough i think you can get the idea.

It's also the longest ranged execute and begins it's execute range at 30%, which is better than every other execute in the game.

One of the longest*
http://www.esohead.com/skills/18718-mages-fury

arkansas_ESO

tplink3r1 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I still think jesus beam should be dodge roll able, every other execute is.

That is the exact reason it should not be dodgeable....

FYI its the only channelled execute too, yeah its gonna be a bit of a brain teaser for you but if you wrestle with it long enough i think you can get the idea.

It's also the longest ranged execute and begins it's execute range at 30%, which is better than every other execute in the game.

One of the longest*
http://www.esohead.com/skills/18718-mages-fury

Whoops, my bad.

http://www.esohead.com/skills/63029-radiant-destruction

Radiant Destruction has the same base range as Mage's Fury, while Mage's Fury is dodgeable and begins to do execute damage at 20% (although it can be casted beforehand to set up burst.)

My point is this: why does the Templar execute get everything? It's got range, it's undodgeable, unreflectable, and it starts hitting harder earlier than other executes. It's only real weakness is that it's a channel, but that's irrelevant from a group PVP/Xv1 standpoint.

outsideworld76

I love RD, just roll along Cyrodiil with your posse and vaporize that vermin

It's so funny to see those reds drop like rats after you just press 1 button. Yeah... that's right... I'm the best, kneel before Zod outsideworld76.

cazlonb16_ESO

To be fair, magicka Templars don't have a lot of better options. Hitting a somewhat competent player with the other ranged class abilities is nigh impossible in small scale or 1vs1 situations because of the ridiculous travel times and with Charge still breaking constantly going into melee is a high risk maneuvre every single time.

It's no coincidence that non healbot magicka templars are pretty much the rarest thing in Cyrodiil, next to stamina sorcs maybe.

PURPLE245

jesus beam is a damn joke i play more of a tank set up not fully tank but tanky enough and thats all i get im trying to fight 5+ people and you have that trash being spammed on you... its a joke i am vampire so i should take less dmg while lower health right? 30k spell resistance and im still gettng hit for like 20k.... i get that its over time but 20k jesus beam while you are fighting 5+ people as soon as you health gets just that little bit low that it game over and there is nothing you can do i see people talking about how god damn stupid it is all the time and ZOS think the skill is fine..........if the skill was fine why would there be so many people complaining about the damn thing they press one button and win but the person taking it is doing soo much more and its never a win but when you see the scrubs on there own and 1st thing they do is jesus beam thats what gets me just get slayed i will say i have not seen it to much in the new update but they are still doing it but tbh i dont blame the players doing it its a free win i blame zos for thinkin that kinda skill is fine like wtf....just because we are out numbered does now mean we should just die to bs like this there are time you can just sit there and tank zergs but as soon as you see the BEAM ITS OVER.....

Thornen

I open with Jbeam just to troll the hell out of whoever I'm fighting.

Snape2255

So many sour replies. I'll try and reply to them all at once.

Lucifer_Malice wrote: »

My Temp hits hard with JB, but only as an execute. Are you saying that can't play or are you tired of dying to the JB?

You evidently haven't read the thread properly. Please do not reply until you have a decent bearing of what we're discussing here.

david31741 wrote: »

You can imagine how much hate spam I get for using RD. Some people don't understand, so here are some thoughts:

• Spamming RD? How bout spamming Poison Arrow - Wrecking Blow - Frags - Ambush - why is RD any different and "skill-less"?
  
• "You are using RD on full health?!?! wtf?" Well, RD is not so easy to target WHO YOU WANT it to target, especially when there are many people around AND sometimes roll dodgers or DK wings give you no other option - sometimes it is used to highlight the next target ...BUT mostly -- what other DPS options do you have against roll dodgers & DK's? Not many viable ones. It also makes you a huge target - a homing beacon for everyone to come kill.

Frankly, a Magika Templar is *** as dps in pvp. Any half decent DK you can't kill & Sorcs - newp. So you have NB's and other Templars. Thank goodness NB's are all over the place. Oh and my 10k stamina doesn't help me for *** while stam classes appear to be able to roll dodge infinitly while instantly breaking any CC I put on them - while then using stamina to wrecking blow/execute me. Oh yeah its great fun and RD is a problem?

With respect, David, I feel this is more of a build issue. My Templar has minimal issues with Magicka Sorcs and only WB spammers are a bit of an issue when it comes to DKs, but a CC immunity pot can prevent that. They can't reflect PS so you need to get in their face, pop your CC immunity and you'll out-dps them whilst healing yourself. Stamina NBs are the issue, unless running Inner Light/Radiant Magelight. Even so, they can still be difficult.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's also the longest ranged execute and begins it's execute range at 30%, which is better than every other execute in the game.

It actually becomes effective after 50% health, but redundant until after 30% as your PS/DF will still be more useful unless they're reflecting or dodge bug exploiting. It is, however, the best execute in the game...without a shadow of a doubt.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

My point is this: why does the Templar execute get everything? It's got range, it's undodgeable, unreflectable, and it starts hitting harder earlier than other executes. It's only real weakness is that it's a channel, but that's irrelevant from a group PVP/Xv1 standpoint.

I appreciate what you're saying, it is an extremely powerful spell, however like you said being a channel is a big weakness to it. A Sorc running Crushing Shock or a Stam char running Venom Arrow can make sure that a Templar absolutely cannot utilise JB. Stuns work well, but the interrupt spells are in a league of their own against DF and JB.

Dredlord wrote: »

Congrats on your "sore winner" award, it's not easy to get.

It takes a special kind of person to complain about people you beat in pvp...

I'm the sort of person who prefers to help others excel in their playstyle, whether they are an enemy or not. I've often helped other faction players hone their builds to be able to play better. This sort of playstyle is something that frustrates me because I know that there are so many better options and it irritates me to see people opening with it when they're on their own etc., it is entirely redundant.

Your reply was also redundant. It is unnecessary to post such a comment. We're having a discussion about people using this skill in the WRONG way, not as an execute which is what it's used for.

If it is possible to spread awareness to some of these players about it then it's a win-win. They'll start playing better and we won't have to lay our eyes on something so pointless again.

It takes a special kind of person to try and force his own negativity onto a discussion about an inefficient playstyle and ways to improve on it.

david31741

Snape2255 wrote: »

So many sour replies. I'll try and reply to them all at once.

Lucifer_Malice wrote: »

My Temp hits hard with JB, but only as an execute. Are you saying that can't play or are you tired of dying to the JB?

You evidently haven't read the thread properly. Please do not reply until you have a decent bearing of what we're discussing here.

david31741 wrote: »

You can imagine how much hate spam I get for using RD. Some people don't understand, so here are some thoughts:

• Spamming RD? How bout spamming Poison Arrow - Wrecking Blow - Frags - Ambush - why is RD any different and "skill-less"?
  
• "You are using RD on full health?!?! wtf?" Well, RD is not so easy to target WHO YOU WANT it to target, especially when there are many people around AND sometimes roll dodgers or DK wings give you no other option - sometimes it is used to highlight the next target ...BUT mostly -- what other DPS options do you have against roll dodgers & DK's? Not many viable ones. It also makes you a huge target - a homing beacon for everyone to come kill.

Frankly, a Magika Templar is *** as dps in pvp. Any half decent DK you can't kill & Sorcs - newp. So you have NB's and other Templars. Thank goodness NB's are all over the place. Oh and my 10k stamina doesn't help me for *** while stam classes appear to be able to roll dodge infinitly while instantly breaking any CC I put on them - while then using stamina to wrecking blow/execute me. Oh yeah its great fun and RD is a problem?

With respect, David, I feel this is more of a build issue. My Templar has minimal issues with Magicka Sorcs and only WB spammers are a bit of an issue when it comes to DKs, but a CC immunity pot can prevent that. They can't reflect PS so you need to get in their face, pop your CC immunity and you'll out-dps them whilst healing yourself. Stamina NBs are the issue, unless running Inner Light/Radiant Magelight. Even so, they can still be difficult.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

It's also the longest ranged execute and begins it's execute range at 30%, which is better than every other execute in the game.

It actually becomes effective after 50% health, but redundant until after 30% as your PS/DF will still be more useful unless they're reflecting or dodge bug exploiting. It is, however, the best execute in the game...without a shadow of a doubt.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

My point is this: why does the Templar execute get everything? It's got range, it's undodgeable, unreflectable, and it starts hitting harder earlier than other executes. It's only real weakness is that it's a channel, but that's irrelevant from a group PVP/Xv1 standpoint.

I appreciate what you're saying, it is an extremely powerful spell, however like you said being a channel is a big weakness to it. A Sorc running Crushing Shock or a Stam char running Venom Arrow can make sure that a Templar absolutely cannot utilise JB. Stuns work well, but the interrupt spells are in a league of their own against DF and JB.

Dredlord wrote: »

Congrats on your "sore winner" award, it's not easy to get.

It takes a special kind of person to complain about people you beat in pvp...

I'm the sort of person who prefers to help others excel in their playstyle, whether they are an enemy or not. I've often helped other faction players hone their builds to be able to play better. This sort of playstyle is something that frustrates me because I know that there are so many better options and it irritates me to see people opening with it when they're on their own etc., it is entirely redundant.

Your reply was also redundant. It is unnecessary to post such a comment. We're having a discussion about people using this skill in the WRONG way, not as an execute which is what it's used for.

If it is possible to spread awareness to some of these players about it then it's a win-win. They'll start playing better and we won't have to lay our eyes on something so pointless again.

It takes a special kind of person to try and force his own negativity onto a discussion about an inefficient playstyle and ways to improve on it.

Never seen you in game - maybe you aren't PC - but I am one of the few solo non-healing magika templars. My build is/was solid. I'm always top 2% when active on a camp. I am 99% solo and don't heal for AP. My main weakness is stamina but unfortunately not much of a solution there.

I'd pay to watch you take a good Sorc or DK with your Magika Templar. Sure, I bag many - but not good ones. NB's and other temps who aren't exploiting are the only thing I find fairly easy (as long as they aren't playing the run you out of stamina game).

david31741

edit - removed