How can we make Dragon's Blood viable once more

KILLu4aCORONA

With Magicka DK's arguably already the worst PVP spec to currently run, what steps can ZOS take to bump the class to a once again viable level of play? Thieves guild brought with it a few steps in the right direction, but the class still needs alot of work. The class based heals are now a joke. Inhale is "decent", if your surrounded by 5 people minimum, but as a class built around outlasting an opponent while applying methodical damage, it's nowhere near enough. Balance is the name of the game here here. We're not asking for a buff to godlike proportions, simply to a level where we can once again be competitive on a consistent basis. With the heal debuff, Dragon's Blood is utterly useless. Don't quote me on my math skills, but with a toon at 25k max HP, once you're down to 1k HP, even with Igneous shield giving you a major mending buff, you'll be healed for around a whopping 4.5k HP. With no way to escape (streak), no way to momentary mitigate damage (cloak), or any major heals (breath of life), the true weakness of the class is revealed. We simply ask that ZOS take a hard look at the class, and listen to the community of players who simply want to be competitive with other classes in PVP.

Gottbeard

Solution 1: Allow % based heals to ignore the Battle Spirit Buff (Debuff). Cleanse, Invigorating Drain, Dragons Blood, Absorb Magick, ect, ect.

Solution 2: Allow Healing Done, Healing Taken, and Healing Received Bonuses from CP, Set Bonuses, Passives, and Racials to ignore the Battle Spirit Buff (Debuff). A spell damage bonus from a set gets full credit but a 4% healing taken bonus from a set is half as effective in cyrodil...

Cinbri

Full ignoring Battle Spirit not the best solution coz than stamina dks will get same strong heal as magicka dks without any investment, like very strong heal for free.

KILLu4aCORONA

Well, at this point in time, any stamina build running vigor and rally already have better heals than a magicka dk, so it's absolutely something to look into. A stam DK may get a few dragon's blood heals off, but just like a stamina templar using breath of life, they won't be able to maintain resources to do so for any extended amount of time.

Vangy

Cinbri wrote: »

Full ignoring Battle Spirit not the best solution coz than stamina dks will get same strong heal as magicka dks without any investment, like very strong heal for free.

Stam DKS will run vigor and rally. They are better off for stam vs dragons blood which costs well over 3k magicka. Stam Dks don't have that kind of magicka to spare unless they give up wings/igneous shields. Not a very wise change up if your stam DK.

Cinbri

Vangy wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Full ignoring Battle Spirit not the best solution coz than stamina dks will get same strong heal as magicka dks without any investment, like very strong heal for free.

Stam DKS will run vigor and rally. They are better off for stam vs dragons blood which costs well over 3k magicka. Stam Dks don't have that kind of magicka to spare unless they give up wings/igneous shields. Not a very wise change up if your stam DK.

Yet they still can use Igneous Shield(as they use it to restore stamina)+DB. Back in time when DB wasn't broken this combo allowed dks to get back to full hp in 1 sec by this combo.

KILLu4aCORONA

Cinbri wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Full ignoring Battle Spirit not the best solution coz than stamina dks will get same strong heal as magicka dks without any investment, like very strong heal for free.

Stam DKS will run vigor and rally. They are better off for stam vs dragons blood which costs well over 3k magicka. Stam Dks don't have that kind of magicka to spare unless they give up wings/igneous shields. Not a very wise change up if your stam DK.

Yet they still can use Igneous Shield(as they use it to restore stamina)+DB. Back in time when DB wasn't broken this combo allowed dks to get back to full hp in 1 sec by this combo.

So, nerf DK's right?

Vangy

Cinbri wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Full ignoring Battle Spirit not the best solution coz than stamina dks will get same strong heal as magicka dks without any investment, like very strong heal for free.

Stam DKS will run vigor and rally. They are better off for stam vs dragons blood which costs well over 3k magicka. Stam Dks don't have that kind of magicka to spare unless they give up wings/igneous shields. Not a very wise change up if your stam DK.

Yet they still can use Igneous Shield(as they use it to restore stamina)+DB. Back in time when DB wasn't broken this combo allowed dks to get back to full hp in 1 sec by this combo.

Maybe I wasnt being clear. Most stam dks have a mag pool of around 10-12k.

Wings = 3k+ magicka
igneous = 3k+ magicka
DB = 3k+ magicka

If you slot all 3 as a stam DK you are not going to be able to utilize all of them effectively or you will have to give up 1 of them from your bar. Why do that when vigor heals for crazy 2.5k ticks? And rally crit with a 10k heal... Lets compare this to dragons blood;

30% of missing health heal. Most stam DPS dks have ard 22k life in cyro. Assuming you cast it when you are at 5k life --> 17k health missing = 17k * 0.3 = 5.1k heal (without cyro debuff). Even with igneous --> 5.1k*1.2 = 6.12k heal..

Personally that dosent justify to me why my stam DK should drop rally/vigor/wings for it....

Cinbri

Vangy wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Full ignoring Battle Spirit not the best solution coz than stamina dks will get same strong heal as magicka dks without any investment, like very strong heal for free.

Stam DKS will run vigor and rally. They are better off for stam vs dragons blood which costs well over 3k magicka. Stam Dks don't have that kind of magicka to spare unless they give up wings/igneous shields. Not a very wise change up if your stam DK.

Yet they still can use Igneous Shield(as they use it to restore stamina)+DB. Back in time when DB wasn't broken this combo allowed dks to get back to full hp in 1 sec by this combo.

Maybe I wasnt being clear. Most stam dks have a mag pool of around 10-12k.

Wings = 3k+ magicka
igneous = 3k+ magicka
DB = 3k+ magicka

If you slot all 3 as a stam DK you are not going to be able to utilize all of them effectively or you will have to give up 1 of them from your bar. Why do that when vigor heals for crazy 2.5k ticks? And rally crit with a 10k heal... Lets compare this to dragons blood;

30% of missing health heal. Most stam DPS dks have ard 22k life in cyro. Assuming you cast it when you are at 5k life --> 17k health missing = 17k * 0.3 = 5.1k heal (without cyro debuff). Even with igneous --> 5.1k*1.2 = 6.12k heal..

Personally that dosent justify to me why my stam DK should drop rally/vigor/wings for it....

Theory is kinda different from practice like it always was...In theory it should works as you said but in practice i remember how Is+DB healing buff worked weird and combo allowed magicka dks to get back to full HP same as old Restoring Focus+BoL for templars, according to Wrobel such things making you "very tough" are unbalanced so i doubt this way of fix will be implemented as Restoring Focus+BoL combo was nerfed and revamped to prevent possibility to get strong heal otherwise it would be already fixed this way in Update 9.

KILLu4aCORONA wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Full ignoring Battle Spirit not the best solution coz than stamina dks will get same strong heal as magicka dks without any investment, like very strong heal for free.

Stam DKS will run vigor and rally. They are better off for stam vs dragons blood which costs well over 3k magicka. Stam Dks don't have that kind of magicka to spare unless they give up wings/igneous shields. Not a very wise change up if your stam DK.

Yet they still can use Igneous Shield(as they use it to restore stamina)+DB. Back in time when DB wasn't broken this combo allowed dks to get back to full hp in 1 sec by this combo.

So, nerf DK's right?

It is L2R.

KILLu4aCORONA

Yeah, I'm not sure you know what you're talking about dude. The absolute only upside of a stam DK using GDB is for the stam regen, but pots offer the same buff, and they don't stack.

AverageJo3Gam3r

You forgot fossilize as another mag skill that stam DKs run, especially if they use 2H as their DPS bar.

Gottbeard

Cinbri wrote: »

Full ignoring Battle Spirit not the best solution coz than stamina dks will get same strong heal as magicka dks without any investment, like very strong heal for free.

I think you are confused about what the words "investment" and "free" mean.

They "invest" 2 bar slots to perform the igneous GDB combo. They invest into health if they want the heal to be worth it.

Its not "Free" because they pay 50-66% of their available mana to perform the combo...

And as many other people here have said, it isn't even better for a stamina DK than the heals they already have available to them.

TheDarkShadow

Cinbri wrote: »

Theory is kinda different from practice like it always was...In theory it should works as you said but in practice i remember how Is+DB healing buff worked weird and combo allowed magicka dks to get back to full HP same as old Restoring Focus+BoL for templars, according to Wrobel such things making you "very tough" are unbalanced so i doubt this way of fix will be implemented as Restoring Focus+BoL combo was nerfed and revamped to prevent possibility to get strong heal otherwise it would be already fixed this way in Update 9.

I think it's funny that Wrobel think a DK and Templar heal from under 50% -> full is "unbalance", while Sorc can just bolt, stack shields and heal back. I mean... it's more risky to use a 2 skills combo while your health is low before the enemy cc or finish you with an execute, WHILE you standing there taking whatever they throw at your face, because you're a class that have no escape skill like bolt or cloak, than let the shields absorb the damage while your health is untouch and healing up.

Saint314Louis1985

i was under the impression that they buffed the burning embers heal quite a bit...?

doesnt flame lash give you a heal as well?

and as a mag dk you are able to use a resto staff efficiently. if you want a good heal and even a dmg shield you could use blessing of restoration and/or healing ward just like every other mag build with exception of templars.

KILLu4aCORONA

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

i was under the impression that they buffed the burning embers heal quite a bit...?

doesnt flame lash give you a heal as well?

The flame lash heal is decent, but to have the main class heal (dragon's blood) rendered useless is perfectly fair right? I mean we would hate to have DK's be on par with all the precious nightblades out there again.

hammayolettuce

Cleanse is not affected by battle sprit and is the only other percentage base heal that will heal like dragons blood. Just remove the battle spirit debuff from dragons blood and problem solved.

It's legitimately all DKs need healing wise to stay competitive seeing as they have zero mobility as magicka and have almost no burst unless you time damage with a meteor which isn't always possible.

Gottbeard

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Cleanse is not affected by battle sprit and is the only other percentage base heal that will heal like dragons blood. Just remove the battle spirit debuff from dragons blood and problem solved.

It's legitimately all DKs need healing wise to stay competitive seeing as they have zero mobility as magicka and have almost no burst unless you time damage with a meteor which isn't always possible.

All of the health % based heals I listed are affected by the battle spirit debuff including Cleanse.

Forestd16b14_ESO

I say just make dragons blood like vigor you know heal X amount over X amount of time.

Dragons Blood- Heals caster X amount over 6 seconds and boost health recovery by 20% for 30 seconds

Green Dragons Blood- Heals caster X amount over 6 seconds and boost health and stamina recovery by 20% for 30 seconds

Coagulating Dragons Blood- Heals caster X amount over 6 seconds and boost health recovery by 20% for 30 seconds and increases healing received by 10%.

Done and done. Still might not be good for DK tanks cause of scaling and all that.......... well maybe have them scale off health ???

vortexman11

WARNING, BADLY WRITTEN POST WITH NO ACTUAL FACTS AHEAD

I'm sure we all remember how Dragonblood used to function, we would wait until we got down to around 30% health, then simply pop a igneous shield/DB combo and heal back to around 85-90%. Timing with this skill was everything, you did not want to spam it as it had EXTREME diminishing returns since it only heals for 30% of missing health, but you did not want to wait too long for the risk of being executed.

Alot of things have changed since then...players on average have lower health and higher burst, everyone heals for less, there are new more viable executes in game (lets not turn this into a nerf templar thread now ). Yet through all these changes, Dragonblood has remained the same in function... "Draw on your draconic blood to heal 30% of missing Health"

Lets quickly look back on some things. In 1.6 people complained that damage and healing was way to high, this lead to various changes to battle spirit to reduce damage and healing in Cyrodiil, yet not even a month later we were seeing players getting nearly the same damage numbers as they did in 1.6, and essentially the same healing. Why is this? Well, as soon as that battle spirit change went in, we saw the addition of sets patch after patch that made it easier to stack higher weapon/spell damage and higher max magicka/stamina. And as we know 90% of the heals in this game scale off of a players maximum stamina and weapon damage (Vigor/Rally) or off of maximum magicka and spell damage (Ummm... like every other heal), so ultimately all heals THAT SCALED OFF OF DAMAGE AND RESOURCES became just as powerful as they were before, leaving heals that scale off of health, such as Dragonblood behind in the dust.

The bandaid fix for this was giving DKs more heals which scaled off of the damage they put out such as buffing burning embers, adding a heal to stone fist, and allowing inhale to hit 6 targets, which I believe is great, but every DK out there would of taken a fix/buff to Dragonblood over those any day.

Now to get back on topic....what needs to be done to Dragonblood to make it viable again... it either
A: No longer should it have diminishing returns, it should heal for a flat percentage not based on missing health, but based on maximum health. Cleanse is a good example of this, I personally use it as a better alternative to Dragonblood on my tank because even though 15% of max health isn't much, it is in most situations better than 30% of missing health because it allows me to keep my health topped off.

or

B: Start scaling off of a resource OTHER than health, or at least make one morph scale off of a resource other than health.

None of what I said up there ^ matters as devs have already stated Dragonblood has no issues and is in a good place. Which when translated from ZOSanese to English means "This will never change, stop asking"

I've recently started playing my magicka DK as a true magicka DK again since I grinded a Dunmer and the main thing I noticed was that if between powerlash and burning embers I can keep my health topped off nicely, but once hit with almost any burst damage, such as a dawnbreaker, its near impossible to recover as Dragonblood is no longer a reliable burst heal like it was meant to be.

Firerock2

Make Dragon's Blood ignore the battle spirit buff if a player's magicka stat is greater than their stam. They could also just make the percent of the health returned scale with a player's magicka pool but hard cap the numbers at 33%. Another option is to just make it into a copy of Honor the Dead, at least that will make it useful again.

You're nuts if you don't think Stam DK's would slot an unnerfed Dragon's Blood over other DK abilities.

hammayolettuce

Gottbeard wrote: »

hammayolettuce wrote: »

Cleanse is not affected by battle sprit and is the only other percentage base heal that will heal like dragons blood. Just remove the battle spirit debuff from dragons blood and problem solved.

It's legitimately all DKs need healing wise to stay competitive seeing as they have zero mobility as magicka and have almost no burst unless you time damage with a meteor which isn't always possible.

All of the health % based heals I listed are affected by the battle spirit debuff including Cleanse.

Forgot it was changed this update for TG with cleanse. Previously it was not affected by battle spirit.

Xsorus

Probably should just make it a hot.

Make Green Dragon Blood Stamina Cost
Makes Coag Dragon Blood Magicka cost one.

Keep the power % based on Health Lost...so if ya use it below 30% its super powerful hot.

AddictionX

Whats with all of this hate against stamina DK lol ... some people want to specifically buff their class skills but then think "oh wait we would also be buffing stamina DK .... oh wait:

https://youtu.be/xoMgnJDXd3k

We would rather some how think of a way that a DK class buff DOES NOT BENEFIT STAMINA NEIN NEIN NEIN! I will think of every way possible for the stamina not to have access to another DK ability ever again NEIN it cannot happen! I will even bring templars up because god forbid a DK getting out of the 50 percent undodgable 40 meter execute with a skill, what if that happens where stamina can do it too NEIN too many possibilities NEIN it cannot happen!"


So whats with all the salt? I would honestly rather play a Knight character and not be in a dress-made-robes. Sure that sounds shallow but take a look at some of the responses so far. Com'on lets cut the crap lol.

Jade1986

Make the heal scale of magicka? Simple solution to be honest. If you have harldy any magicka, it heals for nothing, and the higher the magicka, the more it heals. Not rocket science people .

vortexman11

laced wrote: »

Make the heal scale of magicka? Simple solution to be honest. If you have harldy any magicka, it heals for nothing, and the higher the magicka, the more it heals. Not rocket science people .

This is the simple solution, but people would argue that this will make the skill useless for pure tank builds that stack health to get the most out of it.

GeorgeBlack

Can they give us a morph in which the char doesn't go all black? That's what I want from DB. To be able to see the features of my char.

Frawr

I love to know what makes zenimax think that dragon blood is 'in a good place'.

It restores 16% of missing health in cyrodil.

16%.

Of MISSING health.

If I have 30k HP, at 10% (3k hp), this skill will restore 4320 hp.

A 4k heal that costs 3.5k magicka.

How anyone can possibly imagine that this skill is 'in a good place' escapes me.

To fix, remove the battle spirit debuff from %-based heals.

kojou

Frawr wrote: »

I love to know what makes zenimax think that dragon blood is 'in a good place'.

It restores 16% of missing health in cyrodil.

16%.

Of MISSING health.

If I have 30k HP, at 10% (3k hp), this skill will restore 4320 hp.

A 4k heal that costs 3.5k magicka.

How anyone can possibly imagine that this skill is 'in a good place' escapes me.

To fix, remove the battle spirit debuff from %-based heals.

Either that or just make it a 33% of max health heal and not be dependent on missing health. My DK fully supports any help to GDB.

Lokey0024

Increase health recovery by 100% for duration? Would synergy with dk passives and give heavy armor relevance for dks

Mojmir

minor beserk-
the more damage you take,the more damage you do up to 12%
5% of the damage you deal is returned to you as health

BurritoESO

Dragon blood is actually really good if you spec a lot of points into CP for healing received and combining it with igneous shields to get major mending. On my mag DK, dragon blood is almost on the same level as breath of life, also having a large health pool helps. I still believe it should be buffed though, the only way to get good results with it is if you specifically build for using it, which is kind of stupid. But it's not a big deal, if you know what you are doing and know how to use it, it's very strong.