Campaing Pride, Alliance Pride

tinythinker

VaranisArano wrote: »

More Recent Threads on the Subject

Those are partially related, but the ideas here are more comprehensive and focused on a bigger picture of faction and campaign pride gamewide. There are appropriate times to start a new thread or post in a different thread, and I do so regularly. But this thread has unique ideas and a larger focus plus the existing comments and other people's ideas already in it. No need to start something new, it would be a duplicate and lose the other contributions made.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If none of these exactly fit your bill, please start a new thread instead of resurrecting one from a year ago.

I already made my very detailed post on the subject. It is here. Again, no need to duplicate it.

And, I didn't bring back this thread. If I had, I would have done something like comment: "Hey, it's been a while, but I have some additional thoughts/ideas to share on the subject" followed by whatever update I wanted to make. But if someone replies to an older thread I started, I will usually respond briefly or click a reaction. Some threads are long running and get new responses every so often, like favorite quotes. Some are dormant, get a reply very rarely, then sink.

If you want to try to police the forums join threads where people are flaming each other, calling for staff to be fire, etc. Try to keep those threads on point or call out the bad behavior. Better yet let all of that go and post a constructive and interesting original post or comment. I'm sure you have great ideas of your own to share. This is a harmless and informative thread with unique content on a slow forum.

And now that you've bumped this again, looking over the thread, I realize I left some things out I had intended to add over the past year and forgot. If players care/respond, great. If not, it will sink again. Either way, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm going to add new, fun ideas for improving the game, in this thread and new ones, to hopefully at they very least keep people playing and hopefully being excited about where the game might go next. You are welcome to comment on those ideas rather than play forum mod, and I hope you do. We all have things to share about our views of the game.

tinythinker

Hey, it's been a while, but I have some additional thoughts/ideas to share on the subject.

Other threads keep popping up talking individually about ideas similar to some of those I posted here way back, so clearly the major theme of this thread is still relevant, but I prefer a comprehensive approach and want to have a conversation here in the Campaigns forum about the big picture of why faction pride has declined and which the suggestion I've made, that others have made, or that you want to share about bringing faction pride back.

I originally almost started this whole thread in the General forum, but it moves fast and this shiny new Campaigns forum has just opened.

Anyway, I forgot to keep updating my OP here with other relevant ideas and posts that I came up with, yet given the state of the game and of Cyrodiil, it's a good time to share those and solicit feedback and your own recommendations.

Skip to whatever seems interesting.

BRIEF HISTORY

First, for those who don't know, in early testing (before I started playing) you couldn't even do other factions' PvE zones. The idea was you would do your faction 1-50 then go to Cyrodiil, and eventually new adventure zones for end game would be added. This was changed before launch because players wanted more content. The challenge of doing Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold was born. Veteran ranks were added for 0ver-50 progression, and you would earn one rank per major zone in another faction. But all zones except Cyrodiil were faction locked in the sense that you only saw/quested with other members of your faction, even when playing through zones for other alliances. This was the state of the game during beta testing when I joined and also at launch, and at launch you could get the "any race, any alliance" if you pre-ordered. Alliance campaigns were faction locked (in that you could only have characters from one faction on each campaign) and each campaign cycle lasted 90 days.

Changes since then: removal of many starting Cyro campaigns because there wasn't enough PvP pop, addition of faction-locked Craglorn for PvE end game, change to 30 day Cyro campaigns, addition of 7 day Cyro campaigns, adding "any race, any alliance" to the Crown Store, breaking faction locks on Cyro campaigns, breaking faction locks in PvE zones and instances.

The result has been that the distinction between factions is trivialized, as per the my OP.

PVE ALLIANCE CHANGES: FACTION SELECTION AND NEW DAILIES

I've shared these ideas before in comments elsewhere but they really belongs in this umbrella thread for Alliance/Campaign Pride.

First, give something about the factions in the character creation screen, briefly setting each one apart as is done for race choices and class choices. Next, in the age of One Tamriel, allow people to have exactly one change of faction before level 50 by talking to an NPC war recruiter (like the one for DC just outside of Daggerfall) with a warning that this change is permanent.

Beyond that, add a quest-giver for each faction in the capital cities that are availably ONLY after doing your home faction's storyline for each of the spy groups (the Ring of Daggers, Eyes of the Queen, or Hidden Armigers). These are unique to each faction, so if you want to do the EP spy dailies then you need to roll an EP toon. Each faction's primary concerns and identities can be explored with these quests. And it isn't all or even mostly about messing with other factions ("steal the plans for X"). These quests can give insights into treaties, trade deals, bandit problems, and other internal political stuff.

These kinds of things can help set factions apart in the minds of players so that you can better differentiate and choose a faction. This then spills over into the Alliance War as well, and gives additional context and motivation to shout "For the Pact", "For the Queen", or "For the Covenant!"

MOAR CYRO CHANGES: APPEARANCES MATTER

As mentioned, even when you go to Cyro the factions are easily interchangeable. Just switch the color to red or blue or yellow and there isn't much difference. Then they added an Alliance specific horse and outfit to the Crown Store (they shift depending on the faction of the toon using them). Then they added a few Alliance specific items to the Crown store for character appearance change.

Nice. A great step in the right direction.

Now take that concept and use it in game outside of the Crown Store. Have some details of the decoration/appearance of keeps and outposts (other than banners) change based on faction ownership. Have siege weapons look different. And so on. Really give a distinct feel that you are playing something different when you log onto a toon in one faction versus another. The unique style books were also a good touch, and that opens up additional directions to explore.

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Moar later Gotta run. Will edit and finish when I get the chance.

tinythinker

EXPANDING ON PVE ALLIANCE CHANGES: MORE ABOUT FACTION SELECTION AND NEW DAILIES

I've learned the hard way that cramming too much into a post, no matter how well organized, can be a turn-off so while I gave a quick summary above, I've got a little more of an explanation here. Disagreements and suggestions are welcome.

Theme/Identity for each Alliance

Work was done in the original game development on making each faction unique outside of mere racial configuration, and the official website had a brief description of each alliance that would occasionally be updated. Of course not everyone knew or though to seek that out, but at least it was there. Good luck finding that now. It's gone or buried.

But that's OK. We can fix that...

Improve Character Creation

When you create a character and are new to the game, there is information given to tell you about your racial options and class options. give something about the factions in the character creation screen, briefly setting each one apart as is done for race choices and class choices. It can have the same length as the race and class descriptions, and there is plenty of old material from prior versions of the website and the loremaster's brain to make an apt initial distinction between your choices of who to identify with and fight for. Just having a banner change color and symbol when you click on the alliance options isn't enough. Of course, you might be sure if you picked the "right" faction based on that description, but that's OK. We can fix that...

Improve In-Game PvE Alliance Quest Tracking

In the age of One Tamriel, new players can wander anywhere and pick up the main questline for two or all three factions. Some get lost or confused and go to Reddit or the forums for help. Some even get the stories mixed up. So, move quests that are key parts of alliance storylines to their own section in the quest journal, and then put the stylized eagle, lion, and dragon next to the quest names based on the appropriate alliance. Make the icon for the characters "true" alliance stand out in some way.

By being better able to follow the alliance questlines, you can better tell if the alliance you picked based on the brief description is right for you. Of course, you may decide you chose incorrectly at character creation, but that's OK. We can fix that...

Add a One-Time Alliance Change

So, now a new player read a description of their faction in character creation, had an easy time trying different faction quests, and wants to confirm or change their faction choice. That's cool. Have a recruiter outside of some major cities (like the one for DC just outside of Daggerfall). A warning message pops up and says that whatever you pick will now be permanent. If you don't make this confirmation before level 50, then at attaining that rank a message pops up telling you it is time to choose, and that if you aren't sure, you should go try other factions. You can ignore this message of course, but then you miss out on an incentive to really commit to your faction...

Alliance Specific Dailies

So once you have finished your faction's questline from the starter zones to the end of the fifth full zone, and if you commit to a faction, you now unlock new dailies given by a representative of the spy groups (the Ring of Daggers, Eyes of the Queen, or Hidden Armigers) who deal in intelligence, security, resolving certain types of internal disputes, and so on.

These new dailies offer many things:

• more variety of quest types
• new achievements to earn
• new rewards to earn
• more faction-specific story-telling
• increased sense of distinctiveness between factions
• boosted sense of identifying a character with a faction

Now, you can choose *not* to commit at or before 50, still be in your faction, still PvP for your faction, but skip the rest. But you also choose to miss out on this extra stuff. And again these dailies aren't all about messing with other factions ("steal the plans for X"). These quests can give insights into treaties, trade deals, bandit problems, and other internal political stuff.

Collective, this series of PvE suggestions or similar kinds of things can help set factions apart in the minds of players, which then spills over into the Alliance War as well, and gives additional context and motivation to shout "For the Pact", "For the Queen", or "For the Covenant!"

tinythinker

EXPANDING ON MOAR CYRO CHANGES: A LITTLE EXTRA ON WHY APPEARANCES MATTER

So my OP for this thread and some older comments focused on differentiating and promoting alliances as well as loyalty to campaigns. On the "making alliances stand out" side of that equation, looking back I realized that a 4-6% bonus to AP gain for playing a race native to a faction isn't a "little" gain. Maybe having some other bonus would work instead of AP gain. Or maybe a 6% only works up until alliance rank 8 (Legionary), then it drops to 4% through alliance rank 16 (First Sergent), then 2% through alliance rank 24 (Centurion), the nothing after that.

But, that and the suggestion for gear sets stem from the idea of making noticeable differences in choosing to play one faction or another in the Alliance War. Those suggestions aren't essential, just example. Examples of actually recognizing some kind of distinction when playing one faction or another besides which side of the map you start on and the color of the banners at capturable flags. Right now when you go to Cyro the factions are easily interchangeable. Just switch the color to red or blue or yellow and there isn't much difference.

Aesthetics matter to group identity.

Faction-Locked Crown Store Items

ZOS did take some small steps in this regard. They added an Alliance specific horse and outfit to the Crown Store (they shift depending on the faction of the toon using them). Then they added a few Alliance specific items to the Crown store for character appearance change.

Nice. A great move in the right direction. And sure, add more faction-specific items to the shop. It can only help ("Oh I want that mount... oh it's just for the Pact").

Now take that same concept and use it in game outside of the Crown Store. The faction specific crafting style books added into the game itself were a good touch, and that opens up additional directions to explore.

Re-skinning Keeps and Outposts

One obvious way is to have some details of the decoration/appearance of keeps and outposts (other than banners) change based on faction ownership. Imagine coming over the rise and seeing Fort Ash or Blue Road keep having a different feel and atmosphere because of which faction controlled it. After all, we do a lot of rebuilding of these structure, why not redecorating? The size and scope of these possible changes is up to your imagination. Maybe the stone looks lighter or darker, or has a different texture. Maybe the area on the ramparts or by the outer gate has additional features added.

"Oh look, there are spikes and chains and the stone looks scorched" or "Hey look at the brightly colored stones and the intricate runes." Those aren't the best examples, but they give some sense of how strongly some small changes could impact appearance and reflect the identity of a faction.

Re-skinning Siege Weapons

Another great way to differentiate factions in Cyrodiil is to have siege weapons look different. There is a LOT more room for really creating noticeable difference here, and it would be a fun boost to a zone that has barely changed in appearance since the game launched. Yes, I've noticed the steady stream of small changes to keeps and outposts, from the area around the flags to the adding of potted plants, bookshelves and statues, and even the falling leaves and petals in some spots, to name a few additions.

But having cool-looking differences in siege design and aethetic reflecting the personality of each faction would be a major upgrade. And yes, some people might be drawn more towards one faction or another based on things like this. I would really love to see what the art team would come up with for such a project.

Et Cetera, Et Cetera

And so on. The point is to really give a distinct feel that you are playing something different when you log onto a toon in one faction versus logging in to another.

There are many possibilities and all of the things I and other have suggested so far in this thread are the tip of the iceberg. In addition to gear sets, crown appearance items and mounts, incentives for native races, and re-skinning thing like keeps, outposts, and siege equipment, there are whole untouched categories, from skill line passives or skill line morphs (or even just re-skinning some ability animations), to thee unique faction-specific Cyrodiil-located questlines, there is plenty of room to set factions apart in fun and interesting ways.

I really hope there is a push for this type of thing, which could work well for any planned update or revamp of Cyrodiil as a way to remake and recharge the feel of the zone.

geonsocal

hi @tinythinker

personally I find your thoughts to be very relevant to the here and now...

most definitely you are not a tiny thinker at all - for those of us whom are primarily focused on pvp in cyrodiil - man, I would love to see some enhancements to the pvp experience...

generating more faction loyalty, giving the players a distinct experience or feel to each faction would most definitely enhance the experience...

most importantly though - just as we have choice in factions, we have different choices in forum content...

what would motivate someone to come along and poop on your thread, I have no idea...the motivation of others can be a mystery at times...

I guess, similiar to the "griefers" in chat - it seems misery surely does enjoy company

terrannova

Such a shame that no dev will ever read those brilliant ideas and the so well written text.
Awesome thoughts by the way

tinythinker

terrannova wrote: »

Such a shame that no dev will ever read those brilliant ideas and the so well written text.
Awesome thoughts by the way

They may have read the original ideas and comments and new ideas. But if it doesn't fit their vision, their development schedule, or their resource allocation/technical capability then it won't be seriously considered.

Crom_CCCXVI

One Tamriel killed Alliance Pride....

tinythinker

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

One Tamriel killed Alliance Pride....

But there are ways to build it back up if the devs are on board with the effort