Multiple stacks of DMG mitigation

Heatley2142

Hey there! Im currently theroycrafting a Nord stamina Templar tank focusing primarily on DMG mitigation. But i need someone to explain if my values are correct. I have heard the values stack multiply not additive.

SO please correct me if any or all of the below is wrong:

If i have reached the physical and spell resistance cap (which is around 32000 i believe) i have 50% DMG MIT

Therefore a 10000DMG attack becomes 5000DMG. However my nord passives granting 6% DMG mitigation will not stack onto the 50% additive but treat the 5000DMG attack as the 'new' 100% so to speak and subtract 6% of 5000DMG.

So 5000/100 = 50= 1% x 6= 300= 6% + 5000= 5300 my new total dmg mit

So i now have 5300 DMG mitigated with the two stacked together for a total of 53% total DMG mitigation, right?

In the upcoming update restoring focus will provide 8% DMG MIT also, so again: 5300/100=53(1%) x 8= 424 (8%) + 5300= 5724DMG = 57.2%DMG MIT.

So 57.2% DMG with the rune down. I will also be running Reactive armour which grants 35% mitigation when CC'd, so lets say im cc'd when this 10000dmg attack hits with the rune applied:

5724/100= 57.24 (1%) x 35= 2003.4 (35%) + 5724= 7727.4. My total mitigated damage whilst CC'd which is 77.2%.

Now if the opponent was also affected by the very cheap ULT Empowering sweep which reduces damage taken by 15% and the value is increased by 4% for every enemy affected the value should grow even more right? So lets say the opponent has also been hit by empowering sweep reducing damage by 19%. So one more time:

7727.4/100= 77.274 (1%) x 19= 1468.206 (19%) + 7727.4= 9195.606. Which is the new mitigated damage, 91.9%. So a 10000DMG attack gets turned into 805.

I really hope this math is right but it seems to good to be true, of course this is only whilst CC'd with empowerning sweep up, but sweep is only 72 ult so it will be up somewhat frequently, rune is so cheap it is not an issue so at the very least 77% DMG mit when cc'd which in PvP is every time CC immunitty expires which is what every 4-6 seconds. This in combination with Health recovery (HR) glyphs nord HR passives one piece HR from engine guardian seems pretty appealing. But anyway is this how it stacks or have i wasted my time?

leepalmer95

Well calculating actual dmg is very hard there so many more variables you need to consider.

The fact even with 50%, people will have so much penetration...

My dual sword sorc has 10% from light armour, 18% from nirn swords, and around 10% from cp. So that 38% reduction in your initial armour. Also everyone has some sort of penetration ^^

FriedEggSandwich

I don't really know what I'm talking about with respect to mitigation, but I was under the impression that damage mitigation was capped at 50%, so it's not even possible to mitigate more than 50% of the damage, so any mitigation above this was wasted. I could well be wrong though, and probably am.

phillyboy7897

You were correct until you switched to additive on empowering

Heatley2142

phillyboy7897 wrote: »

You were correct until you switched to additive on empowering

Dam. Ah well. Keep up the videos man definitely the best magicka Templar vids ive seen on youtube which is my main.

TheDarkShadow

Someone made this few months ago: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/187110/dmg-mitigation-for-tanks

I think it still up-to-date

phillyboy7897

Will do man, new one up today finishing discussion of proxy det + offensive combos. Wasn't trying to be snyde I had to leave like as soon as I finished typing that sentence. You have the right idea tho, factor in CPs and we're looking at 85%+ mitigation ez (also factor in battle spirit in your calculations).

Penetration isn't all everyone cracks it up to be you can figure 30-40% of your armor gets ignored on average. Next patch a maxed out penetration CP will ignore 8% of your armor. It's a shame 0 consideration was given to the impact the CP changes have on heavy armor, but I am not exactly shaking in my greaves (heavy armor joke lolol) especially considering exactly 0 players will have 100 in this CP due to everyone being magicka in light armor patch. This is the benefit we get for going against the grain, players are not going to be geared and specced for us.

I expect any good player to invest 20 pts max in penetration CP, there will simply be too many beneficial blue CPs to split between.

paulsimonps

paulsimonps wrote: »

So something else I have seen people mention and something that is often brought up in PvP more so than in PvE but still something tanks needs to think about is damage mitigation. So to explain it a bit I was thinking of listing all possible sources for increased damage mitigations and then what the hypothetical max would be and how that is calculated. Now I might have missed a few sources but these are those that I can remember of hand.

No blocking needed:

Resistance ~33150 Resist is cap so ~663 is 1% 0-50% = 0.5
Nord Passive Rugged 6% = 0.94
Minor Maim (applied on target) 15% = 0.85
Minor protection 8% = 0.92
Veil of Blade(basically Major Protection but never called that) 30% = 0.70
Nova (Major Maim, same as with Veil) 30% = 0.70

Blocking needed:

Blocking 50% = 0.5
One hand and shield passive Sword and Board 20% = 0.80
One hand and shield passive Deflect Bolt (only projectile) 15% = 0.85
Defensive Posture & Morphs 8% = 0.92
Dragonknight passive Iron Skin 10% = 0.9
Templar passive Spear wall (only melee) 15% = 0.85
Footman's fortune 12% = 0.88

To calculate how much any combination of mitigations are in total take the decimal number shown here and multiply them with each other and you will get the decimal form of how many percent of the original is left after all the mitigation has been applied. So as an example a DK blocking with Defensive posture, footman and capped resist would be:
0.5x0.5x0.9x0.92x0.88= 0.145728 which would mean only ~14.5% of the original is left aka ~85.5% got mitigated

Something to note is that getting to 80% mitigation is really simple and all you need is to block with capped resist with sword and board and that is a flat 80% mitigation. Now most people don't have capped resists but a small minor main and a defensive posture can usually pick up the slack. As well as you will notice as well there are severe diminishing returns on this and stacking to many of these would simply be a waste of resources.

The highest theoretical mitigation scenario I can come up with with these are using all of these listed with the exception of the templar passive and deflect bolt. So we are a DK Nord with a allied Templar and Nightblade that gives us Nova and Veil and we got capped resist and Footman's Fortune with all skills needed for the rest that would total to:

0.5x0.5x0.94x0.85x0.92x0.70x0.7x0.80x0.92x0.9x0.88=0.0524896 aka 94.75% total mitigation.

Due note that that would only last for about 10sec and after that the Veil and Nova would run out and they cant be sustained and also the Circle of protection which is the minor protection also costs a lot so it would also go fast and be unsustainable.

TL;DR or in conclusion: People complain that there are to few things to up damage mitigation and I say no there are plenty of stuff to use and stacking too many of them is a waste of time and resources.

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

Someone made this few months ago: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/187110/dmg-mitigation-for-tanks

I think it still up-to-date

Yea I'm the one that made that and the math is still the same only with slightly different resistance cap now which I have updated in this post I also quoted from the official tanking feedback thread. The post that I quoted has most if not all possible sources of mitigation, and shows how it is calculated. This however does not include how it is affected by penetration in PvP. But for PvE it is really good to know.

All you need to do to calculate your mitigation after penetration is to change how the resist is effected. So if your mitigation relies heavily on your resist then you might be hurting but if your mitigation relies on stuff other than resist then penetration will do much less on you.

Mr_Nobody

Idk how it really works, but with Mist and Cyrodils light or Cyrodils light + Vamp passive at low hp I have been personally been hit for very low numbers by hard hitting abilities.

Heatley2142

paulsimonps wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

So something else I have seen people mention and something that is often brought up in PvP more so than in PvE but still something tanks needs to think about is damage mitigation. So to explain it a bit I was thinking of listing all possible sources for increased damage mitigations and then what the hypothetical max would be and how that is calculated. Now I might have missed a few sources but these are those that I can remember of hand.

No blocking needed:

Resistance ~33150 Resist is cap so ~663 is 1% 0-50% = 0.5
Nord Passive Rugged 6% = 0.94
Minor Maim (applied on target) 15% = 0.85
Minor protection 8% = 0.92
Veil of Blade(basically Major Protection but never called that) 30% = 0.70
Nova (Major Maim, same as with Veil) 30% = 0.70

Blocking needed:

Blocking 50% = 0.5
One hand and shield passive Sword and Board 20% = 0.80
One hand and shield passive Deflect Bolt (only projectile) 15% = 0.85
Defensive Posture & Morphs 8% = 0.92
Dragonknight passive Iron Skin 10% = 0.9
Templar passive Spear wall (only melee) 15% = 0.85
Footman's fortune 12% = 0.88

To calculate how much any combination of mitigations are in total take the decimal number shown here and multiply them with each other and you will get the decimal form of how many percent of the original is left after all the mitigation has been applied. So as an example a DK blocking with Defensive posture, footman and capped resist would be:
0.5x0.5x0.9x0.92x0.88= 0.145728 which would mean only ~14.5% of the original is left aka ~85.5% got mitigated

Something to note is that getting to 80% mitigation is really simple and all you need is to block with capped resist with sword and board and that is a flat 80% mitigation. Now most people don't have capped resists but a small minor main and a defensive posture can usually pick up the slack. As well as you will notice as well there are severe diminishing returns on this and stacking to many of these would simply be a waste of resources.

The highest theoretical mitigation scenario I can come up with with these are using all of these listed with the exception of the templar passive and deflect bolt. So we are a DK Nord with a allied Templar and Nightblade that gives us Nova and Veil and we got capped resist and Footman's Fortune with all skills needed for the rest that would total to:

0.5x0.5x0.94x0.85x0.92x0.70x0.7x0.80x0.92x0.9x0.88=0.0524896 aka 94.75% total mitigation.

Due note that that would only last for about 10sec and after that the Veil and Nova would run out and they cant be sustained and also the Circle of protection which is the minor protection also costs a lot so it would also go fast and be unsustainable.

TL;DR or in conclusion: People complain that there are to few things to up damage mitigation and I say no there are plenty of stuff to use and stacking too many of them is a waste of time and resources.

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

Someone made this few months ago: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/187110/dmg-mitigation-for-tanks

I think it still up-to-date

Yea I'm the one that made that and the math is still the same only with slightly different resistance cap now which I have updated in this post I also quoted from the official tanking feedback thread. The post that I quoted has most if not all possible sources of mitigation, and shows how it is calculated. This however does not include how it is affected by penetration in PvP. But for PvE it is really good to know.

All you need to do to calculate your mitigation after penetration is to change how the resist is effected. So if your mitigation relies heavily on your resist then you might be hurting but if your mitigation relies on stuff other than resist then penetration will do much less on you.

Thanks man his helps a lot

Hyssia

Heatley2142 wrote: »

Hey there! Im currently theroycrafting a Nord stamina Templar tank focusing primarily on DMG mitigation. But i need someone to explain if my values are correct. I have heard the values stack multiply not additive.

SO please correct me if any or all of the below is wrong:

If i have reached the physical and spell resistance cap (which is around 32000 i believe) i have 50% DMG MIT

Therefore a 10000DMG attack becomes 5000DMG. However my nord passives granting 6% DMG mitigation will not stack onto the 50% additive but treat the 5000DMG attack as the 'new' 100% so to speak and subtract 6% of 5000DMG.

So 5000/100 = 50= 1% x 6= 300= 6% + 5000= 5300 my new total dmg mit

So i now have 5300 DMG mitigated with the two stacked together for a total of 53% total DMG mitigation, right?

In the upcoming update restoring focus will provide 8% DMG MIT also, so again: 5300/100=53(1%) x 8= 424 (8%) + 5300= 5724DMG = 57.2%DMG MIT.

So 57.2% DMG with the rune down. I will also be running Reactive armour which grants 35% mitigation when CC'd, so lets say im cc'd when this 10000dmg attack hits with the rune applied:

5724/100= 57.24 (1%) x 35= 2003.4 (35%) + 5724= 7727.4. My total mitigated damage whilst CC'd which is 77.2%.

Now if the opponent was also affected by the very cheap ULT Empowering sweep which reduces damage taken by 15% and the value is increased by 4% for every enemy affected the value should grow even more right? So lets say the opponent has also been hit by empowering sweep reducing damage by 19%. So one more time:

7727.4/100= 77.274 (1%) x 19= 1468.206 (19%) + 7727.4= 9195.606. Which is the new mitigated damage, 91.9%. So a 10000DMG attack gets turned into 805.

I really hope this math is right but it seems to good to be true, of course this is only whilst CC'd with empowerning sweep up, but sweep is only 72 ult so it will be up somewhat frequently, rune is so cheap it is not an issue so at the very least 77% DMG mit when cc'd which in PvP is every time CC immunitty expires which is what every 4-6 seconds. This in combination with Health recovery (HR) glyphs nord HR passives one piece HR from engine guardian seems pretty appealing. But anyway is this how it stacks or have i wasted my time?

until this stamina DK pops his Corrosive Armor and proceeds to spam 15k wrecking blows on you. Cool build though :^)

Heatley2142

until this stamina DK pops his Corrosive Armor and proceeds to spam 15k wrecking blows on you. Cool build though :^)[/quote]

True that :L but hopefully HR ,blocking and sun shield (lol) can see me through that, heres hoping at least. Also Corrosive Armour will bypass my Armour (physical resistance) but the damage reduction buffs from reactive, nord passive etc should still help i think.

Soris

I think you forgot to add major maim(?) (the one that heroic slash gives) So there is also that and it does stack with empowering sweep ult.

paulsimonps

Here to help you out a bit. Say for the sake of argument that you don't have any resistance what so ever, to make it simpler to calculate. Then as a nord templar tank, what can you do or wear to give yourself moderately good mitigation in PvP? Well there are like my post above stated several things you can do but bear in mind that most of these things will require blocking and doing that in PvP will drain your stamina really fast, especially considering that you will have to you some of it to apply other effects.

Nord 0.94
Blocking 0.5
Footman/Cyrodiil's Ward 0.88
Minor Maim 0.85
Sword and Board 0.8
Absorb Magic/Defensive Stance 0.92

That's ~0.2587 aka ~74.12% mitigation. And that is not counting with the cyrodiil thing that reduces all damage by 50% which would then make it ~0.1293 or ~87.06%. As well I didn't count either the Deflect bolt passive or the Spear Wall passive as they are situational. One BIG thing to note here is that the 15% damage reduced from the minor maim has to be applied to the enemy attacking you and it will only apply if the target is NOT blocking. If they are then you will still deal damage from the attack but the debuff is not applied which will then not reduce the damage you take.

Heatley2142

Soris wrote: »

I think you forgot to add major maim(?) (the one that heroic slash gives) So there is also that and it does stack with empowering sweep ult.

Totally overlooked that thanks!

paulsimonps

Heatley2142 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

I think you forgot to add major maim(?) (the one that heroic slash gives) So there is also that and it does stack with empowering sweep ult.

Totally overlooked that thanks!

Its Minor not Major, technically Nova acts like a Major Maim but there is no tool tip stating that any ability gives Major Maim.

Bashev

Just a small tip. As more damage mitigation you stack as less effective is because it is multiplicative. On the other hand as more DPS you stack, it is more effective - again because it is multiplicative.

Soris

paulsimonps wrote: »

Heatley2142 wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

I think you forgot to add major maim(?) (the one that heroic slash gives) So there is also that and it does stack with empowering sweep ult.

Totally overlooked that thanks!

Its Minor not Major, technically Nova acts like a Major Maim but there is no tool tip stating that any ability gives Major Maim.

Oh yeah it is minor, not major. But it still stacks with sweep ulti since you add maim to your target but you add sweep ulti effect to yourself.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Nerf sorc though, am I rite? I mean shield stacking is the REAL problem, not 90% passive damage reduction....Somehow I doubt this will get little attention despite being ridiculously OP.

Heatley2142

With this build i will deal next to no damage, and zero mobility due to being a Templar not to mention i will still be vulnerable to critical hits without impenetrable gear. My skill bar will be sacrificed to provide buff de-buff and heals ,everything will revolve around survival not to mention high spell and physical penetration being a constant problem.

My point is if your going to specialize in something you should be great at it and be terrible at others such as DPS or healing. The sorc gets all three in the next patch so i hear all because of a high magicka pool...so yeah your right nerf sorcs.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Heatley2142 wrote: »

With this build i will deal next to no damage, and zero mobility due to being a Templar not to mention i will still be vulnerable to critical hits without impenetrable gear. My skill bar will be sacrificed to provide buff de-buff and heals ,everything will revolve around survival not to mention high spell and physical penetration being a constant problem.

My point is if your going to specialize in something you should be great at it and be terrible at others such as DPS or healing. The sorc gets all three in the next patch so i hear all because of a high magicka pool...so yeah your right nerf sorcs.

Um...seriously? Temps have the best heals in the game, even a terrible one should be able to heal when they are taking 90% less damage....

Heatley2142

Um...seriously? Temps have the best heals in the game, even a terrible one should be able to heal when they are taking 90% less damage....

[/quote]

yeah sure you are right nerf templar

phillyboy7897

Lol sorcs trollin for any possible reason they dont need nerfs

Even after all this effort probably still easier to kill than a sorc with 45k max mag bumpin his offense as well

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I don't really know what I'm talking about with respect to mitigation, but I was under the impression that damage mitigation was capped at 50%, so it's not even possible to mitigate more than 50% of the damage, so any mitigation above this was wasted. I could well be wrong though, and probably am.

thats passive mitigation- armor/spell resist being capped at 50%. if you block you still can reduce damage, or other reducing effects.

Durham

Sorcs... we need a buff

SemiD4rkness

Nerf templars thread?