Lets talk Templars

bosmern_ESO

A young Templar: *knocks on door*
ZoS: *opens the door and looks down at the little Templar*
A young Templar: "Excuse me sir, Do you have a moment to talk about your lord and savior Akatosh?"
ZoS: *Pushes the Templar down and Slams the door*

-This is how ZoS has been treating Templars since the game came out-

On a more serious note, I'm here to talk about how severely Templars are lacking seeing not many people like to talk about them, and they've been in a pretty terrible state for the entirety of the game so far. I probably wont talk about known bugs as they are known and can be addressed, but rather the identity of the class and what they are lacking.

-Lack of buffs-
As it says, Templars have the least amount of buff skills in the game but their class abilities set them as a close to mid range fighter. Don't believe me? here's the amount of defensive (buff) skills each class has:

Templars: 4 (2 ults, 2 abilities)
Sorcerer: 7 (2 ults, 5 abilities)
Nightblade: 7 (1 ult, 6 abilities)
Dragonknight: 9 (3 ults, 6 abilities)

Templar are closest to Dragonknights, you'd expect them to be close range fighters.This is pretty odd because when you hear 'Templar' you'd think of a holy warrior who uses the power of the gods/light to smite enemies while also warding himself and allies, right? Well apparently ZoS has a different view on what Templars are. The Buffs that Templars have are:

Sun shield - A pretty good defensive ability, gives a damage shield based on your health and nearby enemies.
Radial sweep - you take reduced damage for each enemy you hit, which is also good but its an ultimate and you would rather have a different ultimate.
Nova - Probably the best defensive skill Templars have. Grants mitigation to allies, does good damage.
Rune Focus - Grants armor and spell resist, the only Templar ability that does this.

Based upon having a skill tree dedicated to healing and it being the only healing class skill tree in the game, you would assume that ZoS intends Templars on being support classes, so it would make sense that Templars should get changes to abilities to really support group play. Templars should be buffing themselves as well as their allies. Other than healing Templars don't offer much as other classes do to groups, but I will go over that later on. Onto my next subject:

-Lack of Mobility-
So with Templars having the least amount of buffs/defensive abilities you think they would be able to get out of a fight fairly easy right? - wrong. Templars have no mobility skills because they are designed to be tanky fighters who can hold their own and help their allies stay alive at the same time. But over time Templars lost some of their major defensive skills and aren't as tanky as they were originally designed (if they designed this class?). With only 4 buffs you'd probably expect they could bolt escape out of a fight, or cast invisibility to be able to tactically run in the opposite direction, but you can't. The only thing a Templar can do when they get into a fight is turtle in heals and hope your opponent runs out of resources before you run out of heals, which is not an engaging fight and it gets very bland very quick.

-Lack of AoE CC-
What I mean by AoE CC I mean a crowd control that effects multiple targets (talons, encase, fear, meteor, etc). Templars have equivalent CC with other classes, but only with 2 of the 8 CC they have actually effect more than one person. Heres a list of class CC/AoE CC:

Templar - 8 (2 Aoe, 6 single target)
Dragonknight - 8 ( 5 AoE, 3 Single target)
Sorcerer - 7 (5 AoE, 2 Single target)
Nightblade - 9 (4 AoE, 5 Single target)

I said it earlier, Templars seem to have been designed to be group fighters. Being a group fighter means being able to support your allies and being able to control your enemies. Put yourself in a 6v6 situation as a templar in current patch, All you can really do for your allies is heal them to keep them going. While the Dragonknights are locking them in talons, giving everyone damage shields, keeping them snared and pulling enemies into your teams AoE. Sorcerers are doing hard CC with negates, dropping storm atronachs/daedric mines/encase, and bolt escape. Nightblades are fearing, applying a great amount of snares, and supporting allies with things like sap, funnel health, paths, etc. finally we get back to the templar, Which is behind a tree somewhere spamming breath of life while watching everyone else have fun, occasionally they will throw a shard to restore resources to allies but thats about it.

-Poor Skill tree design-
Now this is what I believe to be the overall biggest problem with Templars. It seems ZoS started the creation of Templars first, then half way through they got side tracked and did all the other classes. They eventually came back and looked at what the other classes were missing, thus restoring aura was born. The three skill trees Templars have are:

Aedric spear - Close range dps
Dawn's Wrath - mid-longish range dps-maybe debuff-maybe support dps?
Restoring light - Heals

I believe Dawns wrath is really the only tree Templars have that needs to be completely changed to something else, it makes no sense. Aedric spear needs a few changes to the abilities, but they all seem to follow a theme which is close range fighter. Its the tree with the most CC and its got sun shield, the passives also help it (though the damage still seems low). Restoring Light seems pretty solid and could use some changes but not nearly as much as the other two. Then there is the lovely skill tree that makes no sense.

I can tell ZoS wanted to make a tree for Templars that will allow them to decide between ranged DPS or melee DPS, but that creates major conflict to the class as a whole. It was maybe a cool design and in a perfect world it would work but it doesn't at all. Sure it sounds fine but let me tell you why its such a weird skill tree.

Lets look at sorcerers as a whole. They are a class that has no melee DPS, why? Because all the skill trees support ranged DPS and they make sense. If you were to give sorcerers a skill tree that was purely melee DPS then it would completely throw off the two other skill trees. Storm calling gives a Sorc bolt escape and ranged DPS, The Dark magic tree supports bolt escape by giving them controlling abilities that don't require the sorcerer to be close to the target (rune prision, Daedric mines, Negate, Crystal frag). Daedric summoning also supports the class by granting them defensive abilities in case their enemy does get close, so they wont die.

Dragonknights and Nightblades also have a synergy within their skill trees. I wont go as in depth because I'm sure you all know. All three Dragonknight trees support close range fights, and they work together to create a powerful close range fighter. All Nightblade skill tree's promote a stealthy/elusive fighting style that allows them to quickly kill enemies and be a hard target to hit.

Back to Templars -- Which is having a class identity crisis. Are they ranged or melee? Restoring light supports both play styles, but the play styles don't support each other. With the two skill trees as they are don't really give Templars an overall synergy. If Dawn's wrath was changed to be a more defensive skill tree to support allies and the Templar themselves then you would have a great close range fighter that keeps his allies in the fight and able to hold his own - or - If Aedric spear was changed to a more mobility/ranged skill tree then you would get a great support ranged fighter that can keep his allies going from a safe distance while also dealing some damage in the fight while being able to evade enemies trying to kill them.

I can understand Having classes lack in certain areas where other classes progress in, but still having a equal play field. Nightblades can't stay fighting for as long as a Dragonknight can, a Dragonknight can't kite enemies around and deal with them one by one like a sorcerer, and a sorcerer can't heal as much as a Templar can, and a Templar can't jump into a fight, take out a few enemies quickly and get out. (obviously i left a few things out) But the only thing Templars really have going for them is heals, here is a list (another one!!) of what each class excels at:

Templar: Healing
Sorcerer: highest burst, damage shields
Dragonknights: AoE Crowd control, great sustain
Nightblade: support dps/heals, mobility

Thanks all for reading, hopefully you'll agree that templars shouldn't be only wanted for heals but for being a great group class that you'd want for more than just healing. Also hopefully something finally brings Templars up to speed with other classes.

(please don't judge my writing skills, its 2am and I just worked a 10 hour day :c )

Alorier

im sure that when they address the classes that my Templar will be so unplayable in PvP

NativeJoe

I think the idea was to give you melee range options with melee weapon abilities, or ranged weapons with ranged class abilities. giving you the option of options.

Kova

I think templars are a lot like magicka DKs. In solo play, it's just hard, and divines forbid you face a good player. But add one more templar/magDK and suddenly things start to become fun again. Two magicka templars running bow can darkflare + radiant a player to death in less than a second.

With that said, I think templars need buffs, but I'm afraid of having that happen. Something as simple as sweep/jabs doing more damage to off-balanced foes or unstable core being soft CC instead of hard would flip the entire script. Imagine blazing spear being something similar to Sorc mines. Temp can drop shards and dark flare the sod out of any build. Someone gets to close? Better be ready to eat Templar mines while being jabbed to death.

It's fun to think about, but scary to consider.

Rylana

Templars arent as bursty as a sorc or nightblade (you could argue a stamplar can get some pretty good burst though)

Templars arent as solo sustainable as a DK or nightblade

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever. I dont care if its a stamburst nightblade with fear, a supersorc with 4000+ spell damage (which is laughable to a hardy heavy armor user with a healing ward anyway), or a stamdk. Hell even overload spammers, doesnt matter. All the tools to not die are built right into the class, with a few pulled from weapon lines. Make sure you have a good stam recovery or healthy stam pool (16k+ with some block/break cost reduction) and between immunities you should never ever get stammed out.

Their only actual weakness is mobility. Even then who needs mobility when nothing can hurt you (or you just hit one button and erase whatever just did)

Heavy armor snb/resto magiplar with 501 champs? Hardest thing to kill, period. You better have multiple people beating on it.

americansteel

punc sweeps are terrible so is sun shield what a joke! buff those 2 abilities on par with frags, snipe, and WB well be fine.
lava whip needs to be hitting no less than 10K along side punc sweeps, DK shields need to be on par with Sorc shield!

i out tank V16 DKs with defensive posture on my very fun heavy armored mag sorc- This is pathetic.

AJ_1988

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

A young Templar: *knocks on door*
ZoS: *opens the door and looks down at the little Templar*
A young Templar: "Excuse me sir, Do you have a moment to talk about your lord and savior Akatosh?"
ZoS: *Pushes the Templar down and Slams the door*

-This is how ZoS has been treating Templars since the game came out-

On a more serious note, I'm here to talk about how severely Templars are lacking seeing not many people like to talk about them, and they've been in a pretty terrible state for the entirety of the game so far. I probably wont talk about known bugs as they are known and can be addressed, but rather the identity of the class and what they are lacking.

-Lack of buffs-
As it says, Templars have the least amount of buff skills in the game but their class abilities set them as a close to mid range fighter. Don't believe me? here's the amount of defensive (buff) skills each class has:

Templars: 4 (2 ults, 2 abilities)
Sorcerer: 7 (2 ults, 5 abilities)
Nightblade: 7 (1 ult, 6 abilities)
Dragonknight: 9 (3 ults, 6 abilities)

Templar are closest to Dragonknights, you'd expect them to be close range fighters.This is pretty odd because when you hear 'Templar' you'd think of a holy warrior who uses the power of the gods/light to smite enemies while also warding himself and allies, right? Well apparently ZoS has a different view on what Templars are. The Buffs that Templars have are:

Sun shield - A pretty good defensive ability, gives a damage shield based on your health and nearby enemies.
Radial sweep - you take reduced damage for each enemy you hit, which is also good but its an ultimate and you would rather have a different ultimate.
Nova - Probably the best defensive skill Templars have. Grants mitigation to allies, does good damage.
Rune Focus - Grants armor and spell resist, the only Templar ability that does this.

Based upon having a skill tree dedicated to healing and it being the only healing class skill tree in the game, you would assume that ZoS intends Templars on being support classes, so it would make sense that Templars should get changes to abilities to really support group play. Templars should be buffing themselves as well as their allies. Other than healing Templars don't offer much as other classes do to groups, but I will go over that later on. Onto my next subject:

-Lack of Mobility-
So with Templars having the least amount of buffs/defensive abilities you think they would be able to get out of a fight fairly easy right? - wrong. Templars have no mobility skills because they are designed to be tanky fighters who can hold their own and help their allies stay alive at the same time. But over time Templars lost some of their major defensive skills and aren't as tanky as they were originally designed (if they designed this class?). With only 4 buffs you'd probably expect they could bolt escape out of a fight, or cast invisibility to be able to tactically run in the opposite direction, but you can't. The only thing a Templar can do when they get into a fight is turtle in heals and hope your opponent runs out of resources before you run out of heals, which is not an engaging fight and it gets very bland very quick.

-Lack of AoE CC-
What I mean by AoE CC I mean a crowd control that effects multiple targets (talons, encase, fear, meteor, etc). Templars have equivalent CC with other classes, but only with 2 of the 8 CC they have actually effect more than one person. Heres a list of class CC/AoE CC:

Templar - 8 (2 Aoe, 6 single target)
Dragonknight - 8 ( 5 AoE, 3 Single target)
Sorcerer - 7 (5 AoE, 2 Single target)
Nightblade - 9 (4 AoE, 5 Single target)

I said it earlier, Templars seem to have been designed to be group fighters. Being a group fighter means being able to support your allies and being able to control your enemies. Put yourself in a 6v6 situation as a templar in current patch, All you can really do for your allies is heal them to keep them going. While the Dragonknights are locking them in talons, giving everyone damage shields, keeping them snared and pulling enemies into your teams AoE. Sorcerers are doing hard CC with negates, dropping storm atronachs/daedric mines/encase, and bolt escape. Nightblades are fearing, applying a great amount of snares, and supporting allies with things like sap, funnel health, paths, etc. finally we get back to the templar, Which is behind a tree somewhere spamming breath of life while watching everyone else have fun, occasionally they will throw a shard to restore resources to allies but thats about it.

-Poor Skill tree design-
Now this is what I believe to be the overall biggest problem with Templars. It seems ZoS started the creation of Templars first, then half way through they got side tracked and did all the other classes. They eventually came back and looked at what the other classes were missing, thus restoring aura was born. The three skill trees Templars have are:

Aedric spear - Close range dps
Dawn's Wrath - mid-longish range dps-maybe debuff-maybe support dps?
Restoring light - Heals

I believe Dawns wrath is really the only tree Templars have that needs to be completely changed to something else, it makes no sense. Aedric spear needs a few changes to the abilities, but they all seem to follow a theme which is close range fighter. Its the tree with the most CC and its got sun shield, the passives also help it (though the damage still seems low). Restoring Light seems pretty solid and could use some changes but not nearly as much as the other two. Then there is the lovely skill tree that makes no sense.

I can tell ZoS wanted to make a tree for Templars that will allow them to decide between ranged DPS or melee DPS, but that creates major conflict to the class as a whole. It was maybe a cool design and in a perfect world it would work but it doesn't at all. Sure it sounds fine but let me tell you why its such a weird skill tree.

Lets look at sorcerers as a whole. They are a class that has no melee DPS, why? Because all the skill trees support ranged DPS and they make sense. If you were to give sorcerers a skill tree that was purely melee DPS then it would completely throw off the two other skill trees. Storm calling gives a Sorc bolt escape and ranged DPS, The Dark magic tree supports bolt escape by giving them controlling abilities that don't require the sorcerer to be close to the target (rune prision, Daedric mines, Negate, Crystal frag). Daedric summoning also supports the class by granting them defensive abilities in case their enemy does get close, so they wont die.

Dragonknights and Nightblades also have a synergy within their skill trees. I wont go as in depth because I'm sure you all know. All three Dragonknight trees support close range fights, and they work together to create a powerful close range fighter. All Nightblade skill tree's promote a stealthy/elusive fighting style that allows them to quickly kill enemies and be a hard target to hit.

Back to Templars -- Which is having a class identity crisis. Are they ranged or melee? Restoring light supports both play styles, but the play styles don't support each other. With the two skill trees as they are don't really give Templars an overall synergy. If Dawn's wrath was changed to be a more defensive skill tree to support allies and the Templar themselves then you would have a great close range fighter that keeps his allies in the fight and able to hold his own - or - If Aedric spear was changed to a more mobility/ranged skill tree then you would get a great support ranged fighter that can keep his allies going from a safe distance while also dealing some damage in the fight while being able to evade enemies trying to kill them.

I can understand Having classes lack in certain areas where other classes progress in, but still having a equal play field. Nightblades can't stay fighting for as long as a Dragonknight can, a Dragonknight can't kite enemies around and deal with them one by one like a sorcerer, and a sorcerer can't heal as much as a Templar can, and a Templar can't jump into a fight, take out a few enemies quickly and get out. (obviously i left a few things out) But the only thing Templars really have going for them is heals, here is a list (another one!!) of what each class excels at:

Templar: Healing
Sorcerer: highest burst, damage shields
Dragonknights: AoE Crowd control, great sustain
Nightblade: support dps/heals, mobility

Thanks all for reading, hopefully you'll agree that templars shouldn't be only wanted for heals but for being a great group class that you'd want for more than just healing. Also hopefully something finally brings Templars up to speed with other classes.

(please don't judge my writing skills, its 2am and I just worked a 10 hour day :c )

I could not agree more. @ZOS_GinaBruno you guys should definitely read this to give you some ideas

Cinbri

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

Rylana

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

If templar swung at all into higher burst along with the current sustain/survival, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory, and that is NOT something I would support.

As it is, that same tankplar can have det,sweep, javelin, radiant on and wreck a hell of a lot of face. High defense =/= low damage output with magicka builds, it never has. Especially not when you could throw a 10k prox the same moment as a 10k+ ritualed BoL and regen that magicka back in less than 4 seconds.

Its all relative. I wont even get into the regen builds or megahealth near one-shot builds possible with battle leveling. Dear god.

Stamplar is a bit of a mess though, i will concede that, but magiplar? Just fine where it is.

Cinbri

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

If templar swung at all into higher burst along with the current sustain/survival, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory, and that is NOT something I would support.

As it is, that same tankplar can have det,sweep, javelin, radiant on and wreck a hell of a lot of face. High defense =/= low damage output with magicka builds, it never has. Especially not when you could throw a 10k prox the same moment as a 10k+ ritualed BoL and regen that magicka back in less than 4 seconds.

Its all relative. I wont even get into the regen builds or megahealth near one-shot builds possible with battle leveling. Dear god.

Stamplar is a bit of a mess though, i will concede that, but magiplar? Just fine where it is.

Ok, i got your idea. Templars should not be buffed, just play healbot build and spam heals.

Mojmir

Zos impression of templars ATM

Rylana

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

If templar swung at all into higher burst along with the current sustain/survival, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory, and that is NOT something I would support.

As it is, that same tankplar can have det,sweep, javelin, radiant on and wreck a hell of a lot of face. High defense =/= low damage output with magicka builds, it never has. Especially not when you could throw a 10k prox the same moment as a 10k+ ritualed BoL and regen that magicka back in less than 4 seconds.

Its all relative. I wont even get into the regen builds or megahealth near one-shot builds possible with battle leveling. Dear god.

Stamplar is a bit of a mess though, i will concede that, but magiplar? Just fine where it is.

Ok, i got your idea. Templars should not be buffed, just play healbot build and spam heals.

No. You can do pretty damn good damage with one as well. The problem is youre advocating to do both at the same time, and thats where we differ.

Do you honestly believe any single class should be able to mitigate all magic damage taken to near 1/4 territory (the build i run does exactly this in channeled focus without a mitigation ult down), have enough armor and stam to sufficiently mitigate physical damage so its nowhere near deadly, self heal for 10k+ HPS, sustain that vs multiple opponents for over a minute or against a single opponent indefinitely, AND also do massive AoE or single target damage at the same time?

Like I said, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory here.

Cinbri

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

If templar swung at all into higher burst along with the current sustain/survival, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory, and that is NOT something I would support.

As it is, that same tankplar can have det,sweep, javelin, radiant on and wreck a hell of a lot of face. High defense =/= low damage output with magicka builds, it never has. Especially not when you could throw a 10k prox the same moment as a 10k+ ritualed BoL and regen that magicka back in less than 4 seconds.

Its all relative. I wont even get into the regen builds or megahealth near one-shot builds possible with battle leveling. Dear god.

Stamplar is a bit of a mess though, i will concede that, but magiplar? Just fine where it is.

Ok, i got your idea. Templars should not be buffed, just play healbot build and spam heals.

No. You can do pretty damn good damage with one as well. The problem is youre advocating to do both at the same time, and thats where we differ.

Do you honestly believe any single class should be able to mitigate all magic damage taken to near 1/4 territory, have enough armor and stam to sufficiently mitigate physical damage so its nowhere near deadly, self heal for 10k HPS, sustain that vs multiple opponents, AND also do massive AoE or single target at the same time?

Like I said, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory here.

Honestly I don't know how PvP on NA server looks like but thats how EU server looks like:
1. Currently "Nerfed" magicka DKs can tank as much as current magicka templar, but deal much more aoe damage when outnumbered. Obviously DKs will be "fixed" in next DLC, so they will get higher damage and with couple needed fixes like dragonblood, will get even higher sustain. And it won't make them DK 1.0, it will make them on par with sorcs and NBs.
2. Stamknights have one of the highest sustain while pulling on of the highest single-target damage.
3. Shieldstacking sorcs with all theirs roots/aoe CCs/escape can play highly sustain build even in light armor with pulling insane damage.
4. Magicka NBs in light armor/Stamblades can play highly sustain build with one of the biggest single-target burst damage.
5. Templars - except mostly those who mentioned in this thread are healbots, who stucked to trains to feel usefull and doing almost zero damage in compare with others.
I hate healbot build and trying to play self-sustained solo/duo templar, but in compare with others it is like playing hardmode. So, sorry, but i don't see how templar that forced to play tanking healbot build to be at least near with other classes on sustain bar in Cyro and sacrificing most of their damage for it or forced to play glass-cannon build to be on par with other classes in DD capability but loosing all their sustain and being melt vs high-end sorc/nb/stamknight, is balanced. Just don't see.

---

In addition to this list i created of hwy templar is in bad spot with almost zero PvP diversity:

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP and claim they are balanced:
1. Templar don't have any noticable redirect damage ability(Eclipse is useeless in 1v3 already, BS is useless even more), while DK has Scales, Sorcs has Ward combo with other shields, NBs has Blur and Cloak. Only thing Templar can do is invest max CP into heal buffs and spamming BoL.
2. Templar don't have escape, while sorcs has Boundless Storm for speedbuff, Bolt Escape for escape, NBs has Double Take and Path of Darkness and Cripple for speedbuff, Shadow Cloak for escape and Shadow Image for smart play. Templar can only run away and hope his healings will be enough or become vampire to be one-shotted by vampo hunters.
3. Templar don't have burst damage, he can't even use blockcasting with sweep, many dd skills bugged/broken.
4. Templar don't have AoE CC, while DKs has Talons, even AoE interrupt Deep Breath, Warmth passive for speed debuff, Sorcs has Daedric Mines, Volatile Familiar, Streak, NBs has Terror. For this Templar just can't play properly tank role coz if people will decide to ignore him, Templar won't be able to slow-down them.
5. Templar don't have root even a single one, while DKs has Talons, Fossilize, Sorcs has Encase, Daedric Mines, NBs has Crippling Grasp. If enemy will run away from Templar, we won't be able to stop him.
6. Templar don't have usefull ultimate, except Nova that costs like DK standart but much less effective. Even DKs Chocking Talons giving 15% damage resist, same as Empowering Sweep, i.e. even DK spammable skill better than Templar ultimate...
7. Templar don't have solid resource managment skills/passives, while DKs has Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives, Sorcs has Dark Exchange, Energy Overload, Rebate passive, NBs has Executioner and Refreshing Shadows passives, Siphoning Strikes.(I not saying about reduce cost passives) While Templar has only Channeled Focus for magicka regeneration, Repentance that useless in solo play or duel and mostly used to help your teammates to sustain, and Spear Shards that created to sustain your teammates, when its own caster while out of resources can't use it to restore stamina.
______________________________________________________________________________________
But Templars have Breath of Life and we are damn good in pressing 1 button to sustain other people. Perfectly designed and balanced class i would say.

Funny that answer on this was literally "healbot should only heal, he don't need other tools."

---

Anyway Wrobel on Reddit promised to buff damage of dks and templar, so hopefully just couple days till pts to see if they gave templars at least something.

Soris

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

If templar swung at all into higher burst along with the current sustain/survival, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory, and that is NOT something I would support.

As it is, that same tankplar can have det,sweep, javelin, radiant on and wreck a hell of a lot of face. High defense =/= low damage output with magicka builds, it never has. Especially not when you could throw a 10k prox the same moment as a 10k+ ritualed BoL and regen that magicka back in less than 4 seconds.

Its all relative. I wont even get into the regen builds or megahealth near one-shot builds possible with battle leveling. Dear god.

Stamplar is a bit of a mess though, i will concede that, but magiplar? Just fine where it is.

Well, to be honest, that kind of templar build doesnt't have enough damage to compete with good players. You pretty much described a standart small group templar build that mostly used for farming zerg bads and helping out his group. You can rarely kill people with that in a 1v1 or 1vX but you rarely die in return which sounds quite balanced.

A sorc or a nightblade however, could reach almost the same survivability with using escape mechanics, shields and heals. It's effective af. They are not required to wear heavy armor and that allows them to have better regen, penetration and crit rate. Also they are not required to invest into stamina and/or blocking as much as a templar and dk due to having escapes, so that they can invest more into their main stats for more damage or things like dmg/crit reduction passives etc.

So in the end, 2 out of 4 classes have good dmg + good survivalibity
And the other 2 remaining classes have meh dmg + good survivability
That's no good. But I'm not saying templar need an escape skill. Just needed some more natural defence. It can be the old health rate/more health or an aoe cc or better shield, better passives whatever. So that the class can finally hold of itself without investing everything into survival..

koby-xxrwb17_ESO

IMO temps need some nerfs focused towards their group play and a lot of buffs to improve their solo/smallscale performance

Abob

Templars just need better passives and sustain, especially stamina templars.

caeliusstarbreaker

Succinctly, templar is difficult to buff cause you touch any aspect about it just a hair too much and it becomes over powered.

They could use a CC rework, and a look at the ulti's.

Stamplar could use a reason to put any points in dawns wrath line other than reduced cost, restoring light passives should work with vigor/rally.

bikerangelo

Nice write up, OP. I'm waiting for PTS to pass any more judgment on the Templar class, mostly because my biggest gripes are concerning broken abilities, not sub par abilities compared to the other classes. Stamplar needs some love and Magplar needs fixes, that's all I can really hope for at this point.

bosmern_ESO

bikerangelo wrote: »

Nice write up, OP. I'm waiting for PTS to pass any more judgment on the Templar class, mostly because my biggest gripes are concerning broken abilities, not sub par abilities compared to the other classes. Stamplar needs some love and Magplar needs fixes, that's all I can really hope for at this point.

I am as well. People have been saying there will be loads of balancing to be done and I'm excited to see the changes.

puffy99

Rylana wrote: »

Templars arent as bursty as a sorc or nightblade (you could argue a stamplar can get some pretty good burst though)

Templars arent as solo sustainable as a DK or nightblade

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever. I dont care if its a stamburst nightblade with fear, a supersorc with 4000+ spell damage (which is laughable to a hardy heavy armor user with a healing ward anyway), or a stamdk. Hell even overload spammers, doesnt matter. All the tools to not die are built right into the class, with a few pulled from weapon lines. Make sure you have a good stam recovery or healthy stam pool (16k+ with some block/break cost reduction) and between immunities you should never ever get stammed out.

Their only actual weakness is mobility. Even then who needs mobility when nothing can hurt you (or you just hit one button and erase whatever just did)

Heavy armor snb/resto magiplar with 501 champs? Hardest thing to kill, period. You better have multiple people beating on it.

How many people have 501 champ points let alone 300? you are comparing the top 1% of players with the masses so what you are describing is not even an option for the vast majority of players.. You could take those same points and roll those into any other class and say the exact damn thing x5...

Solariken

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

If templar swung at all into higher burst along with the current sustain/survival, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory, and that is NOT something I would support.

As it is, that same tankplar can have det,sweep, javelin, radiant on and wreck a hell of a lot of face. High defense =/= low damage output with magicka builds, it never has. Especially not when you could throw a 10k prox the same moment as a 10k+ ritualed BoL and regen that magicka back in less than 4 seconds.

Its all relative. I wont even get into the regen builds or megahealth near one-shot builds possible with battle leveling. Dear god.

Stamplar is a bit of a mess though, i will concede that, but magiplar? Just fine where it is.

Ok, i got your idea. Templars should not be buffed, just play healbot build and spam heals.

No. You can do pretty damn good damage with one as well. The problem is youre advocating to do both at the same time, and thats where we differ.

Do you honestly believe any single class should be able to mitigate all magic damage taken to near 1/4 territory (the build i run does exactly this in channeled focus without a mitigation ult down), have enough armor and stam to sufficiently mitigate physical damage so its nowhere near deadly, self heal for 10k+ HPS, sustain that vs multiple opponents for over a minute or against a single opponent indefinitely, AND also do massive AoE or single target damage at the same time?

Like I said, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory here.

For the record, my stamblade has never met a Templar he didn't kill 1v1. But even if your wonky tank build has the sustain you say, you will never kill anyone.

Regardless whether you think your Templar performs well at present, it doesn't change the fact that the OP is 100% right about templars being the weakest overall class design and that they possess by far the least class synergy. They also have the worst resource management and damage mitigation\evasion. These are all objectively true; I invite you to join the Templar buff crusade with the rest of us.

Ashamray

Jabs can't kill a good player. Period.
BoL-cleanse block-casting is severely countered by reverbash with Befoul (and Befoul will become more strong and trendy when ZOS will make it addictive). Healing is not a panacea.

acw37162

Blinding flashes comeback please

Passover that synergies better with the class.

Sun shield being useful

I wouldn't argue with whatever skill it is the Templars NPC's in Orsinium have where the jump up into the air off screen and then crash down somewhere else.

Minno

puffy99 wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Templars arent as bursty as a sorc or nightblade (you could argue a stamplar can get some pretty good burst though)

Templars arent as solo sustainable as a DK or nightblade

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever. I dont care if its a stamburst nightblade with fear, a supersorc with 4000+ spell damage (which is laughable to a hardy heavy armor user with a healing ward anyway), or a stamdk. Hell even overload spammers, doesnt matter. All the tools to not die are built right into the class, with a few pulled from weapon lines. Make sure you have a good stam recovery or healthy stam pool (16k+ with some block/break cost reduction) and between immunities you should never ever get stammed out.

Their only actual weakness is mobility. Even then who needs mobility when nothing can hurt you (or you just hit one button and erase whatever just did)

Heavy armor snb/resto magiplar with 501 champs? Hardest thing to kill, period. You better have multiple people beating on it.

How many people have 501 champ points let alone 300? you are comparing the top 1% of players with the masses so what you are describing is not even an option for the vast majority of players.. You could take those same points and roll those into any other class and say the exact damn thing x5...

You should have 300 Champion points by now.
500 is crazy annoying to grind (due to lack of enlightenment.)

Minno

Solariken wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

If templar swung at all into higher burst along with the current sustain/survival, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory, and that is NOT something I would support.

As it is, that same tankplar can have det,sweep, javelin, radiant on and wreck a hell of a lot of face. High defense =/= low damage output with magicka builds, it never has. Especially not when you could throw a 10k prox the same moment as a 10k+ ritualed BoL and regen that magicka back in less than 4 seconds.

Its all relative. I wont even get into the regen builds or megahealth near one-shot builds possible with battle leveling. Dear god.

Stamplar is a bit of a mess though, i will concede that, but magiplar? Just fine where it is.

Ok, i got your idea. Templars should not be buffed, just play healbot build and spam heals.

No. You can do pretty damn good damage with one as well. The problem is youre advocating to do both at the same time, and thats where we differ.

Do you honestly believe any single class should be able to mitigate all magic damage taken to near 1/4 territory (the build i run does exactly this in channeled focus without a mitigation ult down), have enough armor and stam to sufficiently mitigate physical damage so its nowhere near deadly, self heal for 10k+ HPS, sustain that vs multiple opponents for over a minute or against a single opponent indefinitely, AND also do massive AoE or single target damage at the same time?

Like I said, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory here.

For the record, my stamblade has never met a Templar he didn't kill 1v1. But even if your wonky tank build has the sustain you say, you will never kill anyone.

Regardless whether you think your Templar performs well at present, it doesn't change the fact that the OP is 100% right about templars being the weakest overall class design and that they possess by far the least class synergy. They also have the worst resource management and damage mitigation\evasion. These are all objectively true; I invite you to join the Templar buff crusade with the rest of us.

@blabafat had a comment that listed the best changes for templars. Most of them were to fix bugged skills.

blabafat wrote: »

Templar, as @hammayolettuce stated, is in a good spot.

Templar is the most balanced class in the game right now. It excels at some things, but it also lacks some things. That's what a balanced class is.

The only changes I think should occur:
-Radiant Destruction shouldn't be dodgeable
-Purifying Light should be able to crit
-Explosive Charge should have a snare or something(Kinda weak atm)
-Fix bugs associated with Focused Charge
-Vampires Bane should be "Magic" damage not "Flame" damage
-Activating a Dawn's Wrath ability gives you 5% spell damage(Minor Sorcery). A different Templar passive gives 6% weapon damage(not a major/minor buff) without requiring anything slotted. Since Templar is seen as a weaker DPS class, a balanced change can be adding a 6% spell damage bonus to the weapon damage passive and changing the 5% spell damage from using a dawn's wrath ability to 5% overall damage

As you can see, these aren't OP, drastic changes. Most of them are minor tweaks to passives or abilities(much of which aren't working as intended).

The only item I disagree on is vamps bane being magicka (having it fire based allows a destro build to exist.). I still think it's weak compared to most ranged dps.

themdogesbite

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

I miss playing this build so much, it was so fun to play even though the damage was non existant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvVHVrSjkqA

RIP eclipse, RIP blazeing shield.

FENGRUSH

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

If templar swung at all into higher burst along with the current sustain/survival, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory, and that is NOT something I would support.

As it is, that same tankplar can have det,sweep, javelin, radiant on and wreck a hell of a lot of face. High defense =/= low damage output with magicka builds, it never has. Especially not when you could throw a 10k prox the same moment as a 10k+ ritualed BoL and regen that magicka back in less than 4 seconds.

Its all relative. I wont even get into the regen builds or megahealth near one-shot builds possible with battle leveling. Dear god.

Stamplar is a bit of a mess though, i will concede that, but magiplar? Just fine where it is.

Ok, i got your idea. Templars should not be buffed, just play healbot build and spam heals.

No. You can do pretty damn good damage with one as well. The problem is youre advocating to do both at the same time, and thats where we differ.

Do you honestly believe any single class should be able to mitigate all magic damage taken to near 1/4 territory, have enough armor and stam to sufficiently mitigate physical damage so its nowhere near deadly, self heal for 10k HPS, sustain that vs multiple opponents, AND also do massive AoE or single target at the same time?

Like I said, we are getting into 1.0 DK territory here.

Honestly I don't know how PvP on NA server looks like but thats how EU server looks like:
1. Currently "Nerfed" magicka DKs can tank as much as current magicka templar, but deal much more aoe damage when outnumbered. Obviously DKs will be "fixed" in next DLC, so they will get higher damage and with couple needed fixes like dragonblood, will get even higher sustain. And it won't make them DK 1.0, it will make them on par with sorcs and NBs.
2. Stamknights have one of the highest sustain while pulling on of the highest single-target damage.
3. Shieldstacking sorcs with all theirs roots/aoe CCs/escape can play highly sustain build even in light armor with pulling insane damage.
4. Magicka NBs in light armor/Stamblades can play highly sustain build with one of the biggest single-target burst damage.
5. Templars - except mostly those who mentioned in this thread are healbots, who stucked to trains to feel usefull and doing almost zero damage in compare with others.
I hate healbot build and trying to play self-sustained solo/duo templar, but in compare with others it is like playing hardmode. So, sorry, but i don't see how templar that forced to play tanking healbot build to be at least near with other classes on sustain bar in Cyro and sacrificing most of their damage for it or forced to play glass-cannon build to be on par with other classes in DD capability but loosing all their sustain and being melt vs high-end sorc/nb/stamknight, is balanced. Just don't see.

---

In addition to this list i created of hwy templar is in bad spot with almost zero PvP diversity:

Cinbri wrote: »

And people ask why templar running only healbot build in PvP and claim they are balanced:
1. Templar don't have any noticable redirect damage ability(Eclipse is useeless in 1v3 already, BS is useless even more), while DK has Scales, Sorcs has Ward combo with other shields, NBs has Blur and Cloak. Only thing Templar can do is invest max CP into heal buffs and spamming BoL.
2. Templar don't have escape, while sorcs has Boundless Storm for speedbuff, Bolt Escape for escape, NBs has Double Take and Path of Darkness and Cripple for speedbuff, Shadow Cloak for escape and Shadow Image for smart play. Templar can only run away and hope his healings will be enough or become vampire to be one-shotted by vampo hunters.
3. Templar don't have burst damage, he can't even use blockcasting with sweep, many dd skills bugged/broken.
4. Templar don't have AoE CC, while DKs has Talons, even AoE interrupt Deep Breath, Warmth passive for speed debuff, Sorcs has Daedric Mines, Volatile Familiar, Streak, NBs has Terror. For this Templar just can't play properly tank role coz if people will decide to ignore him, Templar won't be able to slow-down them.
5. Templar don't have root even a single one, while DKs has Talons, Fossilize, Sorcs has Encase, Daedric Mines, NBs has Crippling Grasp. If enemy will run away from Templar, we won't be able to stop him.
6. Templar don't have usefull ultimate, except Nova that costs like DK standart but much less effective. Even DKs Chocking Talons giving 15% damage resist, same as Empowering Sweep, i.e. even DK spammable skill better than Templar ultimate...
7. Templar don't have solid resource managment skills/passives, while DKs has Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives, Sorcs has Dark Exchange, Energy Overload, Rebate passive, NBs has Executioner and Refreshing Shadows passives, Siphoning Strikes.(I not saying about reduce cost passives) While Templar has only Channeled Focus for magicka regeneration, Repentance that useless in solo play or duel and mostly used to help your teammates to sustain, and Spear Shards that created to sustain your teammates, when its own caster while out of resources can't use it to restore stamina.
______________________________________________________________________________________
But Templars have Breath of Life and we are damn good in pressing 1 button to sustain other people. Perfectly designed and balanced class i would say.

Funny that answer on this was literally "healbot should only heal, he don't need other tools."

---

Anyway Wrobel on Reddit promised to buff damage of dks and templar, so hopefully just couple days till pts to see if they gave templars at least something.

You forgot to list the crazy stamsorcs doing the crazy stamsorc things?!

puffy99

Tried to sweep against a sorcerer in Cyrodill yesterday- of course zero damage.

That should of been hot fixed a long time ago...

Minno

puffy99 wrote: »

Tried to sweep against a sorcerer in Cyrodill yesterday- of course zero damage.

That should of been hot fixed a long time ago...

Remember on the pts when sweeps was doing the correct dmg? Then they nerfed it. Good times...

bosmern_ESO

themdogesbite wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

But flat out, templars are bar none the hardest goddamned things to kill on the battlefield if you build them correctly, and have massive survivability even against good players. No good templar should EVER die in a 1v1. Ever.
.

No, they are not. Any other class can invest into defense same amount of resources and be 5 times tougher than templar. But hey, they don't do it coz they can invest into burst damage and deal insane damage while still be tough...unlike templar turtles that forced to stack defense on maximum.
When i compare what templar could be and what it is now, meh, no words

I miss playing this build so much, it was so fun to play even though the damage was non existant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvVHVrSjkqA

RIP eclipse, RIP blazeing shield.

Your forgetting the best skill, RIP blinding flashes, how I miss my 50% dodge :c