Stamina users, prepare for changes

Strider_Roshin

willymchilybily wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

if you have 15k health sorc (20k in cyrodil) and probably 10k Physical resistance (15% mitigation at most). vs a tank with 25-30k one getting 50% mitigation. tank takes 60k damage to die sorc 33k. +10k per each shield to die. Thats 3 shields = one tank healing for 1.5k health.

A 50% mitigation tank who keeps spamming himself with a 5K heal every second will be able to negate 10000 DPS in incoming damage just as well as a 0% mitigation sorcerer spamming himself with a 10K shield every second. That is if we assume the attacker never crits.

Example: 10000 damage hits incoming every 1 seccond.
- Tank mitigates 5000 of it, takes the rest 5000, and heals himself for 5000.
- Sorc mitigated 0 of it, takes the rest 10000, ans shields himself for 10000 again.
Result: same. Sorc is just as tough to kill as a full tank.

If we assume that the attacker crits, the sorc will be able to negate even more incoming damage than the tank. If the attacker crits 100% of the time, then the sorcerer will be able to negate 33% more incoming damage than the tank.

(and before you claim sorcs don't have 10K shields in PvP - well, tanks don't have a 50% mitigation in PvP either.)

@Sharee I got your point the first time. i dont know why you decided to repeat the exact same thing. the maths was easy to follow.

if you look at one shot. one attack yes the shield is great. but you ignore the size of health pool, the time to kill, the lack of stamina, the inability to reapply when stunned where armor is always up. The fact the tank can block more to further reduce the damage. You are totally blinkered. ive bolded it. so you can see what hyperbole you are using to make your point! and a really rubbish point it is as you are ignoring every other factor but those that strengthen your point, and looking at one attack not the overall health pool and resistances.

by your logic I could argue templars healing themselves for 10k a time(actual value is likely less). And a heal can crit, sorc shields cant crit. so a templar can self heal for larger values by far than my sorc can shield and thats one button. with two champion trees they can use to buff it. and id be talking nonsense. Because one is proactive and one reactive. Thats what you ignore in your narrow narrow view/example. one hit. one attack doesnt reflect the truth of the comparison.

The ONLY reason I'm not getting into this more is because penetration is OP and high armor can be rendered useless in the current PvP system. This makes shields strong.

when you can get 12-18% penetration on the trait and 10% on a mace, and magicka or stamina can DW mace/sword. Then yes you are right. re-applying a shield that has no resistance is better than relying on resistance when its possible to mitigate it to such a large extent. Armor being too weak to penetration is not the same as shield being too strong.

If ZOS removed all penetration (outside of de-buffing abilities) the game would be a lot more balanced imo. shields are really not all that.

anyway im just going to agree to disagree if you have been on PC since feb and haven't even tried a sorc you likely never will and will always have this same blinkered view.

To be fair, the shield is better than the heal because you can at least land 1 hit between activations.

mr_wazzabi

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Yay magicka users crying even more just what every body needs... Also want physical resistance ? Pool some points into the armor expert trees in the warrior. They increase your armors physical resistance so you'll have to take some points out of bastion to increase your physical resistance.

Fine if magicka users get a new passive they can pool points into the increase physical resistance either though there is already something like in the system then stamina users should get a new passive that deals "X"% unresistant damage to a player with a damage shield or deal "X" extra damage to a players damage shield. It's only fair.

As a magicka nb, i would love this vs sorcs. Sorcs actually have the greatest advantage against other magicka builds as they can stack harness magicka with hardened ward.

At least stamina users have mighty unmitigated, magicka nb, dk and templars can barely put a dent in a sorc.

cazlonb16_ESO

CyrusArya wrote: »

Right on cue. As is the case every single time a new patch rolls around, certain people start freaking out and overreacting to every proposed change.

Is it time for the obligatory "In Update [insert number] Magicka Templars will rule the land and all other classes will be obsolete" yet ?

Sharee

willymchilybily wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

if you have 15k health sorc (20k in cyrodil) and probably 10k Physical resistance (15% mitigation at most). vs a tank with 25-30k one getting 50% mitigation. tank takes 60k damage to die sorc 33k. +10k per each shield to die. Thats 3 shields = one tank healing for 1.5k health.

A 50% mitigation tank who keeps spamming himself with a 5K heal every second will be able to negate 10000 DPS in incoming damage just as well as a 0% mitigation sorcerer spamming himself with a 10K shield every second. That is if we assume the attacker never crits.

Example: 10000 damage hits incoming every 1 seccond.
- Tank mitigates 5000 of it, takes the rest 5000, and heals himself for 5000.
- Sorc mitigated 0 of it, takes the rest 10000, ans shields himself for 10000 again.
Result: same. Sorc is just as tough to kill as a full tank.

If we assume that the attacker crits, the sorc will be able to negate even more incoming damage than the tank. If the attacker crits 100% of the time, then the sorcerer will be able to negate 33% more incoming damage than the tank.

(and before you claim sorcs don't have 10K shields in PvP - well, tanks don't have a 50% mitigation in PvP either.)

@Sharee I got your point the first time. i dont know why you decided to repeat the exact same thing. the maths was easy to follow.

if you look at one shot. one attack yes the shield is great. but you ignore the size of health pool, the time to kill, the lack of stamina, the inability to reapply when stunned where armor is always up. The fact the tank can block more to further reduce the damage. You are totally blinkered. ive bolded it. so you can see what hyperbole you are using to make your point! and a really rubbish point it is as you are ignoring every other factor but those that strengthen your point, and looking at one attack not the overall health pool and resistances.

by your logic I could argue templars healing themselves for 10k a time(actual value is likely less). And a heal can crit, sorc shields cant crit. so a templar can self heal for larger values by far than my sorc can shield and thats one button. with two champion trees they can use to buff it. and id be talking nonsense. Because one is proactive and one reactive. Thats what you ignore in your narrow narrow view/example. one hit. one attack doesnt reflect the truth of the comparison.

The ONLY reason I'm not getting into this more is because penetration is OP and high armor can be rendered useless in the current PvP system. This makes shields relatively strong.

when you can get 12-18% penetration on the trait and 10% on a mace, and magicka or stamina can DW mace/sword. Then yes you are right. re-applying a shield that has no resistance is better than relying on resistance when its possible to mitigate it to such a large extent. Armor being too weak to penetration is not the same as shield being too strong.

If ZOS removed all penetration (outside of de-buffing abilities) the game would be a lot more balanced imo. shields are really not all that.

anyway im just going to agree to disagree if you have been on PC since feb and haven't even tried a sorc you likely never will and will always have this same blinkered view.

Please note that the point of my post was not to do an in-depth comparison of sorcerers to templars or tanks in general. Rather, it was to demonstrate why "shields have no mitigation" is not as major a weakness as some posters make it to be.

X shield with no mitigation is just as good as X/2 shield with 50% mitigation would be. Make X a large enough number, and the fact shields have no mitigation is no longer important.

In addition to that, in an environment where critical hits are common and powerful, an immunity to them is - at the very least - comparable (defense-wise) to the mitigation typically provided by armor in a PvP environment. That is why i find the common argument "but shields have no mitigation!" silly.

eliisra

Come one, it's about time and needs to happen. Not only in PvP, v.s Tornado and Bombard spamming raids, but also in PvE.

Take all the crazy physical dmg in vMA, only sorcs have decent tools to deal with it (Hardened Ward). We need a CP sign reducing physical dmg period.

However, ZoS needs to re-balance stamina builds at the same time. We need Ultimate's doing physical dmg, stamina skills doing physical dmg and not magic dmg. Preferably more stamina morphs. These things needs to be introduced simultaneously to the new CP signs, or stamina builds will indeed have to many problems.

LorDrek

eliisra wrote: »

Come one, it's about time and needs to happen. Not only in PvP, v.s Tornado and Bombard spamming raids, but also in PvE.

Take all the crazy physical dmg in vMA, only sorcs have decent tools to deal with it (Hardened Ward). We need a CP sign reducing physical dmg period.

However, ZoS needs to re-balance stamina builds at the same time. We need Ultimate's doing physical dmg, stamina skills doing physical dmg and not magic dmg. Preferably more stamina morphs. These things needs to be introduced simultaneously to the new CP signs, or stamina builds will indeed have to many problems.

True!!!

Tors

Dont forget no matter what happens, no matter how much physical mitigation is allowed nor how much spell damage is allowed to be stacked.

Templars will still be templars and will still recive their weekly nerf in one way or anothe while being unable to do much in the way of DPS in PvP

Remember the wise words of the Blue Oyster Cult

"Don't Fear the Templar"

willymchilybily

Sharee wrote: »

Please note that the point of my post was not to do an in-depth comparison of sorcerers to templars or tanks in general. Rather, it was to demonstrate why "shields have no mitigation" is not as major a weakness as some posters make it to be.[SNIP] That is why i find the common argument "but shields have no mitigation!" silly.

I agree with that, but you do realise I only mentioned a lack of damage resistance because the OP was on about boosting physical damage resistance making sorc OP/stronger. My point was it will make sweet F.A. difference to a sorc if you boost physical resistance if my main defence is the shield (Because it has no resistances +25% of 0 is stil 0) and im in light armor... 25% of diddly squat is still diddly squat. Thats the ONLY reason i mentioned that shields have no resistance.

But I didnt expect some one quoting me not to connect the dots. i thought i was being quite clear.

Sharee wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

I doubt ZOS can fudge it too bad. OP mentioning sorcs having high potential to get physical damage resistance with already reasonable spell and shields with the change. Does make me question the OPs understanding of game mechanics. Like shields not having any damage resistance.

I think this harping on how shields do not have damage resistance is silly, considering how strong they are.
[SNIP].

Sharee

willymchilybily wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Please note that the point of my post was not to do an in-depth comparison of sorcerers to templars or tanks in general. Rather, it was to demonstrate why "shields have no mitigation" is not as major a weakness as some posters make it to be.[SNIP] That is why i find the common argument "but shields have no mitigation!" silly.

I agree with that, but you do realise I only mentioned a lack of damage resistance because the OP was on about boosting physical damage resistance making sorc OP/stronger. My point was it will make sweet F.A. difference to a sorc if you boost physical resistance if my main defence is the shield (Because it has no resistances +25% of 0 is stil 0) and im in light armor... 25% of diddly squat is still diddly squat. Thats the ONLY reason i mentioned that shields have no resistance.

But I didnt expect some one quoting me not to connect the dots. i thought i was being quite clear.

Sharee wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

I doubt ZOS can fudge it too bad. OP mentioning sorcs having high potential to get physical damage resistance with already reasonable spell and shields with the change. Does make me question the OPs understanding of game mechanics. Like shields not having any damage resistance.

I think this harping on how shields do not have damage resistance is silly, considering how strong they are.
[SNIP].

I see. I misunderstood the context in which the statement was made.

However i am not sure you are correct when you say a damage resistance star would have no effect on the damage shields take. Shields are unaffected by armor or spell resistance, but it is not armor or spell resistance that is boosted by Hardy or Elemental Defender. Instead, these stars "reduce damage dealt to you". That could be read as "incoming damage is reduced before even being applied to you, and that includes your shield".

Did you (or someone else) test whether a shielded target will take less damage to the shield from a magical attack if the target has points in Hardy? I never thought about this before now.

Lord-Otto

Some people here are just cute...
Now that magicka builds are about to receive the same treatment stamina users got from the CP system, the Titanic will sink?
Are you guys even reading what you're writing?
Welcome in our shoes, kids! Prepare to actually FIGHT instead of CHEESE your way through Cyrodiil.
Oh, and we can talk about weakening shields as soon as dodgeroll, block and break free can be paid with magicka.

Avonna

serious question.... but would it not be more on the balance side if, they made ALL skills behave differently in pvp and pve?

Lord-Otto

Avonna wrote: »

serious question.... but would it not be more on the balance side if, they made ALL skills behave differently in pvp and pve?

No, as it would alienate players from the other activities.

templesus

I see this as necessary. Staminas damage vs light armor users that aren't sorcs is to much to handle. I'd love this for my mag Templar so I stop getting instagibbed off my mount

Hope499

Because sorcs needed more???

This is why i hardly ever touch my temp, or my DK or even my NB now.

Best Shields + most DPS + bolt escape....

So OP now, this is crazy.....

leepalmer95

Hope499 wrote: »

Because sorcs needed more???

This is why i hardly ever touch my temp, or my DK or even my NB now.

Best Shields + most DPS + bolt escape....

So OP now, this is crazy.....

Your nb is more op than a sorc. You should use it more.

Julianos

Hope499 wrote: »

Because sorcs needed more???

This is why i hardly ever touch my temp, or my DK or even my NB now.

Best Shields + most DPS + bolt escape....

So OP now, this is crazy.....

What shields ? We have only 1 shield "hardened ward" other shield comes from resto staff and its really useless on full health and its duration very short also everyone can use it cuz its not for only sorc. And hardened ward shield reduced %50 in cyrodiil so its not sooo OP like most noob people think its not shield you for 25k or something like that. I am altmer v16 with full magicka on everywhere legandary items with legandary enchants 100 cp on bastion and hardaned ward shield me only 12k in cyrodiil which is not OP. Its neccesary yet its still not enough.

Most DPS ? not even close to stealth burst damage. just use nirnhoned armor and you will see.

bolt escape ? its very expensive and short range when you use againts cheap and high range/damage gap closers its totallty useless now...

and if you try to run or stand and spam shields you will just postpone your death like 10 sec. If you try bolt escape those nbs or wrecking blowers will just countiune to hit you non stop thnx to their cheap and high range/damage gap closing BS abilities makes this game really stupid and child play



any half wit person can see stamina builds are OP in every area and ruined pvp and cyrodiil.

Malmai

Decayed_Inside wrote: »

This game has no hope

Morning.

Suru

When CP caps get raised, every single build it going to get nerfed. More points into hardy, thick skinned and ele defender. Also more points into the physical resistance passive. So we'll see how that goes.

dodgehopper_ESO

Jura23 wrote: »

I can't imagine how I will play on my stamina Templar which is already the weakest setup in the game when everybody will be running around with 24% physical reduction. I might as well not even bother try to kill ppl lol.

I know how you feel. I'm still hopeful they'll open their eyes regarding this. I find it extremely ironic as well, when you consider the fact that in the character creator when you start the game, your Templar is standing in a set of head to toe golden plate mail and carries a two hander. It is clear what themes they had in mind as the core of the class.

dodgehopper_ESO

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Drakilian wrote: »

Lol, light amour wearers have high spell resist? They have less than people in medium armour (this is with their passive).

Yes, and heavy armor naturally has higher weapon damage than medium armor.

No it doesn't. They removed the bonus weapon damage from heavy armor a long time ago. Heavy armor is a heavy junk heap, and almost everyone knows it.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

If that's the case all they really need to do is either increase the cost of shields sorc use or reduce the effectiveness it is in PvP. If I have to keep blowing through a shield that they put up while bolt escaping away then it'll just get out of hand. Simply tired as a Stam DK dealing with that kind of situation especially when I don't even use my class abilities for damage since they all suck especially DoTs.

If you can't get through a 12k shield easily, then that's a L2P issue, really.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

CaptainObvious wrote: »

Just make shield strength scale off of health. That way you end up with 64, 0, 0 Sorcs with a 3k damage shield. Then tanks would get a buff out of it too.

Well, you'd just have killed off the entire sorc class if they did that. Sorcs don't have anything else to keep themselves alive. Let's take away NB cloak and make siphon heal 50 hp each tick, templars heal for 500 each BoL and DK's reflect their own attacks back at themselves with flappy wings up

Kwivur

The amount of paranoia in this thread is hilarious...

gw2only1b14_ESO

I tried to read this but I just got this from it :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUyh2yaZPno

AshTal

Most of the CP lines are a % so if you have light armour your armour benefit from CP is half what heavy armour gets as its half the armour rating. So if they offer a % bonus to armour in CP then to get the most out of it you want to be in heavy armour.

I have said it once and I will say it again. Most people when they look at a light armour shield player look at the top 1% of players and see a 12K damage shield not the crappy 5k shield most players get. A better argument would be to lower the power of the top 1% not nerf everyone.

Forestd16b14_ESO

AshTal wrote: »

Most of the CP lines are a % so if you have light armour your armour benefit from CP is half what heavy armour gets as its half the armour rating. So if they offer a % bonus to armour in CP then to get the most out of it you want to be in heavy armour.

I have said it once and I will say it again. Most people when they look at a light armour shield player look at the top 1% of players and see a 12K damage shield not the crappy 5k shield most players get. A better argument would be to lower the power of the top 1% not nerf everyone.

Agreed why should the 99% suffer for the 1% mistakes while the 1% get just laugh and point at the 99% suffering.

willymchilybily

Sharee wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Please note that the point of my post was not to do an in-depth comparison of sorcerers to templars or tanks in general. Rather, it was to demonstrate why "shields have no mitigation" is not as major a weakness as some posters make it to be.[SNIP] That is why i find the common argument "but shields have no mitigation!" silly.

I agree with that, but you do realise I only mentioned a lack of damage resistance because the OP was on about boosting physical damage resistance making sorc OP/stronger. My point was it will make sweet F.A. difference to a sorc if you boost physical resistance if my main defence is the shield (Because it has no resistances +25% of 0 is stil 0) and im in light armor... 25% of diddly squat is still diddly squat. Thats the ONLY reason i mentioned that shields have no resistance.

But I didnt expect some one quoting me not to connect the dots. i thought i was being quite clear.

Sharee wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

I doubt ZOS can fudge it too bad. OP mentioning sorcs having high potential to get physical damage resistance with already reasonable spell and shields with the change. Does make me question the OPs understanding of game mechanics. Like shields not having any damage resistance.

I think this harping on how shields do not have damage resistance is silly, considering how strong they are.
[SNIP].

I see. I misunderstood the context in which the statement was made.

However i am not sure you are correct when you say a damage resistance star would have no effect on the damage shields take. Shields are unaffected by armor or spell resistance, but it is not armor or spell resistance that is boosted by Hardy or Elemental Defender. Instead, these stars "reduce damage dealt to you". That could be read as "incoming damage is reduced before even being applied to you, and that includes your shield".

Did you (or someone else) test whether a shielded target will take less damage to the shield from a magical attack if the target has points in Hardy? I never thought about this before now.

@Sharee you are correct from what i've read reduced damage dealt to you does affect sheilds. It reduces the damage prior to it hitting and I believe therefore even prior to crit'ing and penetration has no affect on it.. making it the strongest defence CP in game imo. ( i havent tested first hand but from what i interpreted what i read it's as above). Which is why magicak users feel so out of balance with stam users in PvP.

The Op stated "RESIST PHYSICAL DAMAGE" then goes on to compare it to magicka/LightArmor having high spell resistance. So i assume he means Physical Resistance. Not REDUCED PHYSICAL DAMAGE. i think they will buff physical resistance from the lowly 13% to be inline with spell at 25%. but this will not buff light armor magicka users.

I do think they will have to buff stamina if they introduce also a reduced physical damage CP option. Now yes this will make magicka/light armor stronger (you can get high magicka resist with nirnhoned weapons on top of LA then stack reduce physical damage) hence why i think they need to bring Stamina up to be on par with magicka (not equal to because stamina can break free/ dodge a lot more and have other bonuses, but stronger than as is)

and yes if they do this Every sorc and their mother should be plowing Points into reduce physical damage with their bastion. Because you only get one shield suitable for stopping physical damage (hardened ward which stops both) but you get two shields potentially (using harness/dampen magicka) to protect from spells. In this way yes all magicka users will be buffed against physical damage, which they have little defence against as it stands. IF they did this and Didnt buff stamina. But speculation on speculation and talking about resistance instead of damage reduction is daft, misleading and fear mongering on something we have no specifics on AFAIK. and giving out BAD information. this whole topic is ridiculous at this stage.

Strider_Roshin

Oh look, all of my predictions came true. Well it's time to make my magic sorc my main because stam builds are now dead.

found1779

Decayed_Inside wrote: »

This game has no hope

Agreed

Strider_Roshin

found1779 wrote: »

Decayed_Inside wrote: »

This game has no hope

Agreed

Yeah they just took a dump on stamina builds. I'm debating on quitting now.