Tweaking DK skills so their intended fuction matches how the game has changed

Joy_Division

Hi Zos:

I think @Jules has done an excellent job detailing the problems that currently plague (magicka) Dragonknights. Please do not make us wait months and months until we can have fun playing the class. Please recognize that putting some stuff on incremental patches or the pts can help you identify and address inherent issues that your internal staff, as hard as they try, misses. My suggestion is not to try and reinvent the wheel. This was the most elegantly designed class at launch; it's skills meshed smoothly and effectively with each other and how the game's mechanics worked then. As Jules pointed out, most of the DKs issues have come as a consequence of the game developing in a direction that undermined what the Dragonknight was designed to do. You do not need to overhaul the class. You just need to tweak it so its skills and its overall design are in harmony with how ESO gameplay has changed.

Fiery Grip. Original intent: pulls enemies to you. Undermined by: change in elevation restrictions has made skill unreliable to use, other gap closers are objectively superior. Solution: Give DKs a choice of DPS gap-closer that follows the basics mechanics of other gap-closers or tank "pull" option.

This conceptually awesome ability combines the worst of all gap-closer mechanics: grants CC immunity without CCing, does low damage, low base range, we never quite know what will happen. I do not understand why there needs to be a thing as "chain pull immunity" when it is not needed for the shield or Templar charge. I do thinking chaining people and bosses who have CC immunity is too strong. So the goal is to make the skill reliably and competitively perform its function:

Base Skill:: The "tank" version. Under normal circumstances, the *target* is pulled to you and takes a moderate amount of damage. Range is same as other gap-closers, none of this 18 meter nonsense. If the target has some sort of CC immunity (blocking, immovable, boss), the chain snaps like a rubber band and hits target for some additional damage, a small DoT, and a snare that is one step higher than the Warmth Rank II passive [edit: to be clear the target is not pulled, i.e. the CC immunity is respected]. I don't think the snapping mechanic should work on castle walls because other gap closing skills are also unusable. Now this skill respects CC immunity and will reliably do something.

Morph1:. The "tank" morph. As base skill with the additional effect that the target is disoriented, a very logical status that goes not grant free CC immunity to the opponent, and takes 10% additional damage to the next attack that hits them. Also, no more PVE enemies who walk away even though they are taloned!

Morph2:. The DPS version. Always pulls *you* to any target that any other gap-closer can hit. Range is standard. Two ways to do this: 1) modest damage + the force of the DK slamming into the opponent knocks them down. 2) Potentially high damage + no CC (make damage based on the distance traveled like the Critical Rush skill and has high fire damage over time to discourage spamming)

Why this change? The spirit of the original skill is retained in one morph. The other morph conforms to the mechanics of other gap-closers.

Difficulty in implementing? Hardly any. Could be put into the game as soon as the art team did their usual good job.

Inferno. Original intent: AoE DoT for opponents next to DKs. Sacrifice magicka sustain for higher DPS or resource return. Undermined by: redundancy with mage light, removal of AoE DoT. Solution: revert back AoE component, revert back to old animation to make art consistent with function (also the new animation is uninspiring), and revert to original intent of a choice between higher DPS (without redundancy) or higher sustain.

ZoS does not recognize just how much toggles undercut the versatility needed in PvP. If that toggle isn't *really* good like the old NB siphoning strikes, we are going to be hesitant to use it. Note: In PvE I do use this ability, but I highly question the design of a skill that is redundant with mage light and whose sole purpose is to give a passive dot. There is no more boring skill in the game.

Base Skill:: Revert back to the awesome animation in 1.5 and basic functionality, that is an AoE DoT that effects all enemies. Grants the DK major major brutality and major sorcerery (ZoS: please do this too for the sorcerer critical surge skill. Stop presenting us with what is in essence a morph choice of "get both" or "pick this underwhelming version"). This is a buff, not a toggle.

Morph1: The DoT scales for higher damage the longer an opponent stays within (it's like lava). When an enemy dies in it, the DK is granted minor force for X seconds.

Morph2:. The DoT scales for higher damage the longer an opponent stays within. When an enemy dies in it, the DK is granted 5% of its health, magicka, and stamina and X ultimate.

Why this change? Because the old skill was altered because it was incorrectly assumed that nobody used it (see ESO Live in December 2014). Returns the skill to its pre 1.6 theme, presenting DKs with a choice that increases damage via critical hits (morph 1) or gives them sustain (morph 2). Gaining ultimate is essential for a DK sustain and it was an oversight by the developers when dynamic ultimate regeneration was cut without an option to replace it

Difficulty in implementing? None. Just use the old animation. Next Monday's incremental patch.

Dragon Blood: Original intent: burst heal plus additional benefits not available elsewhere. Undermined by: Designed to scale of our highest attribute instead of magicka/spellpower, now that attribute is much lower and magicka/spellpower is much higher. Additional benefits now redundant with potions. Solution: complicated because ZoS has failed to make health a desirable attribute.

I am of the belief that the nerf to health was probably the worst design change in ESO. It has encouraged us to stack everything into damage, which allowed us to completely ignore the mechanics of end-game PvE content and created the whole TTK mess in 1.6. The IC patch still has not solved the fundamental problem that we do too much damage with too much sustain and too little health; if it temporary alleviated getting insta-killed, it has also created negative consequences elsewhere. Dragon Blood does not benefit from spellpower (which has gone up enormously) like other heals, 50% of 33% of low attribute is just bad. In essence, its benefits have declined whereas every other heal has increased. I don't see how this skill can work under the current game mechanics. Stuff like this is why I think the 50% battle spirit system does not address the core problems in PvP and is unsustainable . This skill is obsolete, dependent on game mechanics that either no longer exist or have changed dramatically. It needs to be redesigned to reflect where ESO has gone.

Temporary solution: This skill is exempt from the 50% Battle Spirit reduction. It instead is reduced by the original 20%.

Difficulty in implementing? None. Next Monday's incremental patch.

Molten Armaments - Original intent: group buff that increased damage. Gave DKs option for moderate increase in sustain DPS or short burst based on critical hit. Undermined by: tying the increased damage mechanic to a fully charged heavy attacks, which are a DPS loss. Classic case of one step forward, two steps backward. Solution: Revert back to original intent on offering DKs a choice, either a short burst or an execute of sorts:

I do not use this skill because fully charged heavy attacks are a DPS loss, the duration is too short, the skill doesn't work with restoration staffs, and the execute morph take too long to execute, thus defeating it's very purpose. Another question to ask is do we *want* to make heavy attacks high DPS and just have DKs duct-taping their left mouse button and posting Raid leading DPS? I don't think so. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be a class that potentially have some awesome synergy with a heavy attack, that actually sounds like an interesting mechanic. Let's just make it more exciting than holding down a button and think of a way to fit in an execute.

Base Skill: This is a long duration buff (roughly 30 seconds like the old molten armaments). Like the old, it infuses the DKs light and heavy attacks with an extra fire damage. On a fully charged heavy attack, the damage is increased by 40%, the DK is granted the empower buff, and the target is inflicted with the specific burning status effect associated with this skill (i.e. it could stack with other burning status, but not with itself).

Morph1:: Upon completion of a fully charged heavy attack, the target and any adjacent allies are subjected to an explosion that does X damage and grants the DK the minor force buff for 12 seconds.

Morph2:: While this skill is active, any fire damage inflicted by a DK has a chance of causing the explosion effect (it's already in the game, it happens against fire vulnerable monsters like zombies) against targets under 20% health.

Why these changes? Trying to make heavy attacks do something more than just damage (boring). A fully charged heavy attack would now be a part of a DK's rotation as opposed to dominating it. Heavy attacks are interesting now that a DK can use them for the burst damage it lacks and conforms to one of the original morph's intentions. Should a DK go with route 2, the DK loses its on demand burst potential, but the patient one who was dedicated to maintaining their DoTs now has an interesting execute proportional to their ability to keep those DoTs up.

Difficulty in implementing? Some, but let's not overestimate this as most of these mechanics are currently in the game. Only thing new is the stuff on a completed heavy attack on morph 1.

Reflective Scales. Original intent: protect the DK from ranged attacks. Function as the DK's ranged attack. Undermined by: Introduction of new ranged skills that bypass it (Jesus Beam, Inevitable Detonation), experienced players who have learned to defeat them (NBs no longer spam snipe. Now they ambush + fear + incapacitating strike + executioner). This skill is also pointless against stealth attacks. Solution: Remove the 4 projectile limit as this nerf is no longer needed.

The four projectile limit was always pointless as it did not nothing for a dedicated ranged user in a 1v1 fight. The nerf just allows DKs to get zerged down easier which has undercut the intended "tankiness" of the DK. To those who hate this ability and feel the 4 projectile nerf is needed, I challenge you to explain how this benefits you in anyway aside from allowing you to zerg down a DK. In a 1V1 scenario, do you willingly fire 4 projectiles and take the subsequent damage from them in order to defeat them? If the DK is getting zerged and you have no fear of retaliation, how is it that your one-trick pony build that only uses ranged projectiles can't use a single skill that is not a ranged projectile? Why are Sorcerer shields, Templar Jesus Beams, NB cloak all L2P issues that have counters but DK scales somehow does not fall under the same category? If we are going to champion the "don't nerf, use counterplay arguments," why then are DKs excluded from that philosophy?

Difficulty in implementing? None. Next Monday's incremental patch.

DK Standard. Original intent: Provide a battleground where the immobile DK could stand her ground against overwhelming odds. Undermined by: Elimination of dynamic ultimate gain, introduction of a dubious mechanic that made it very difficult to activate its synergy, increased cost, opponents who know enough to walk out of them. Solution: Give the DKs options to increase their ultimate gain, revert cost back to 200 (still very expensive), give priority to shackle synergy.

The elimination of dynamic ultimate was the second worst change in ESO gameplay in my opinion. To all you people who complained that under the old system ultimates were somehow not "special" or that it didn't take any skill to drop multiple banners, are you happy under the "fair" system that allows zergs to gain ultimate just as fast as everyone else? You complained and complained how broken it was for a group of 4 to use their ultimates in a way that they could stand their ground and fight a zerg ... congratulations, now only a zerg can beat a zerg. You took the one avenue people had to be "heoric" against the very zergs you claim to despise, and thus took away their ability to drop those banners and batswarms that compelled the zergs to spread out. That doesn't sound very "special" to me. In fact, it sounds painfully dull. You had your chance. We have seen what happens. It doesn't work. Step aside gracefully.

I am not arguing that the old system of mindless AoEs should fill an ultimate bar, yet something other than a virtual cooldown is desperately needed to break the zergs and give DKs back their only source of resource sustain. This system should be somehow tied into rewarding play against unfavorable odds, i.e. it's original intention. While ZoS tinkers with that, there is zero reason why Standard should stay at 250 ultimate and for me to spend 10 seconds running my character around searching for the 13 eligible pixles for the shackle synergy to do nothing against opponents who already moved away.

Difficulty in implementing? Minimal. Just recode the shackle synergy to give it priority and make the radius bigger (please do the same for Nova while you are at it).

Inhale - Original intent: give DKs a means of surviving when surrounded by multiple enemies. Undermined by: nerf to 3 target limit. Solution: make it comparable to its closest counterpart, the Nightblade skill Sap Essence.

Unlike most skills here, this one is still decent and viable for a DK to use. But why is it that this skill stops being effective at three opponents but Sap Essence actually continues to scale in effectiveness the more enemies that are around? Inhale is also hurt by the explosion delay which makes it impracticable to spam (Sap essence has no such issues). 6 seems to be your favorite number for AoE caps, I fail to see how stealing a little health from 3 additional enemies will prevent, let alone noticeably delay, the 6 people beating down a DK from finishing the job. Note: I am of the belief the stamina version of Drain Power is noticeably worse than Sap Essence.

Difficulty in implementing? None. Next Monday's incremental patch.

Stonefist - Original intent: ranged CC. Undermined by: There have always been better skills. Solution: Acknowledge that fossilize serves the same purpose and does so more effectively Vs. dodging and blocking opponents. Roll the minor effects the original stonefist had (damage, cool animation) into fossilize. Redesign stonefist.

While I appreciate the combat's teams efforts to make this skill more appealing, it still has a low range, high cost, low damage, a marginal heal that I have little control over. In short, it still isn't that good. It seems to me the Earthen Heart tree is meant to utility and support. Suggestion for redesign: A DKs affinity with the very earth she stands on allows her some degree of attunement with it. A DK who activates this ability ought to free herself of snares and immobilization effects for 4 seconds and grant the minor expedition buff, minor armor buff, and minor evasion buff for 20 odd seconds. One more would confer these effects onto closet 3 allies. The other morph might infuse the DKs weapons with minor berserk.

Difficulty in implementing? A lot. We'll wait until next year. This is the sort of thing that takes months, not tweaks to existing skills.

Ash Cloud - Original indent - Provide an area of protection for the immobile DK to fight in. Undermined by: Dubious decision to removal the 30% miss chance and turn the skill into a ranged DoT. Solution: Was nothing wrong with original skill that did both a DoT and provided a miss chance. Revert.

My DPS does use the eruption skill as it was a decent long last DoT that proced Valkyn. Now that Valkyn never procs, I do not use it, but we could keep the ranged option as a morph. It's still a poor man's caltrops as its area is small and lasts half as long.

Base Skill: It's the old Cinderstorm skill. 5 meter radius, X fire damage every 0.5 seconds, grants the DK major evasion provided she is within the cloud. Snares opponents for 70%.

Morph1:: Retain the current Ash Cloud mechanic of snare persisiting for 2.5 seconds after leaving the area..

Morph2:: Retain the idea of the current Eruption but expand the radius to 8 meters and increase the damage by 25% as the major evasion component is no longer associated with the skill.

Why this change? Because the old skill fit exactly into the intended design of the Dragonknight: stay and fight (effectively) on chosen ground and was never broken as opponents could chose not to enter the Cinderstorm. The ranged DPS version is there for players who value that ability as the original Eruption morph was uninspiring.

Difficulty in implementing? Minimal. Add the major evasion flag to the old Cinderstorm skill and change the radius number of Eruption. Next Monday's incremental patch.

Obsidian Shield - Original intent: Provide a DK with a damage shield plus some beneficial effect. Undermined by: Nerf to health and current Battle Spirit Buff that has undercut the protection the shield is supposed to offer. Fragmented morph nerfed to Oblivion. Solution: ZoS needs to figure out what to do with damage shields, buff health, make the other morph appealing so the ability is actually know by its proper name instead of "Igneous Shield".

The old version of fragmented shield had to go as I could spam that skill in a trials raid and post the highest DPS. Adding something like minor berserk for 6 seconds might be enough to convince people to take this morph

Difficulty in implementing? Moderate. One morph needs to be reconsidered.

Battle Roar (passive) - Original intent: Serve as the DK's method of sustain. Undermined by: elimination of dynamic ultimate, nerf to ultimate gain in general, other classes have percentage scaling passives that perform much better without softcaps. Solution: Provide means in the game for higher ultimate regeneration (preferred), increase the resources returned by the passive (lazy).

Sorcerers and NBs use their percentage based sustain passives and flaunt their 3k+ spell/weapon power builds that have 3k+ regen cannot claim this passive is OP. It was very good in the day of softcaps. Those days are no longer here. Note: I hear you templars, the Devs promised during Beta to come up with a replacement for the unnecessary Battle Spirit nerf and still have not come through. One thing and one thread at a time though

Iron Skin (passive) - Original intent: Serve as the DK's method of defense, she could block better than other classes. Undermined by: change is game mechanics that make blocking costs prohibitive for any character that is not a specialist. Solution: Complicated because ZoS is wedded to a blocking mechanic that punishes people who do not perma-block.

The 0% stamina regeneration penalty does not discriminate. It is mathematically disadvantageous for a non-stamina build to block any attack that is not a one-shot. A more elegant solution to the perma-blocking problem would be to simply reduce the damage and effectiveness of skill used while holding block by 50%. Then players can block to their heart's content but will be woefully ineffective at doing everything else while doing so. But that is neither here nor there. This passive thus is useless for any DK who is not a tank and thus fails to do its intended purpose of protecting all DK players. Either the passive needs to change or blocking needs to actually be viable choice for non DK tanks.

Kindling (passive) - Original intent: Make DKs better at fire damage. Undermined by: (Unnnecessary) nerfs to the destruction staff, (unnecessary) nerfs to burning procs. Solution: Fix destruction staffs, revert burning procs.

A separate topic, but the destruction staff is a bad weapon that will lower your spell damage by about 750, has only one good skill (one that is unrelated to damage) and the burning condition in general triggers far less that it once did. Yes, I know in May 2014 Impulse was very strong. It is October 2015. Just roll stamina and steel tornado stuff.

What is missing from the DK's passives is something to help make their DoTs viable in PvP. In general, the overall effectiveness of DoTs in the game is really poor. You see DKs spamming whip because: the overall damage that comes from DoTs is not much higher, the game is currently at a state where resources are plentiful, and thus the efficiency of DoTs are not needed, and it is too easy for opponents to cleanse/purge/heal them. This goes beyond the fact that somehow, someway, many DoTs are blockable, dodgeable, shieldable, and avoidable which is inexplicable. I would prefer a PvP that was something more than spam your highest damaging skill, but apparently that viewed is not shared by enough people.

The common thread that links these problems is the game is no longer governed by the same mechanics that existed in say July 2014. ZoS has created a meta that places a premium on high burst glass cannon builds whose main "defense" against outnumbered opposition is mobility/escape. The (magicka) DK is designed to do neither and without the supply of ultimate or decent skills to fuel their ability to "tank," the solo roaming DK has been all but rendered extinct. This does not mean it is impossible to create and play a DK that an experienced player can't make "work." But that resultant success is a reflection of the player rather than the qualities of the DK. Templars have also collectively struggled in this new meta, but, as someone who has played both, I will tell you a magicka Templar is far easier to play because I have access to a gap closer, a practical execute, a ranged attack, and functioning self-heal from my class - this means I do not have to compromise my build by using a staff (neither are very good and lose you potentially 750 spellpower), waste my precious stamina on a low damage gap-closer, and can go dual wield swords on both bars that help my class that isn't designed for burst still hit hard. In sum, the game is now a round hole and a magicka DK is a square peg.

I do not think ZoS appreciates the reality that trying to play a magicka DK is simply not fun. The Elder Scrolls Online is not a career, a relationship, or an endeavor that promises a better future for sticking through the tough times. It is a game. If it is not fun, people have better things to do than bang their heads against a wall. *Much* of this annoyance can be alleviated by simply tweaking DKs skills so that their function is commensurate with how the game has developed in the past year and a half. That does not require extensive testing by ZoS's internal staff. In fact, it would be more efficient to put some of this stuff on Live and let us give feedback because many of these problems have arisen precisely because ZoS's internal testers have failed to recognize how the game's changing mechanics have undercut their intended goals.

In sum: Magicka DKs have been undermined since 1.6. The IC exacerbated these issues to the point where the class is not fun anymore to play. There are remedies available that do not require extensive internal testing or redesigning the game. I don't think it is agreeable to ignore them and ask us to not have fun when logging in.

sicc

Wow, very well thought out post. I can only hope zos does something soon for magicka dk. I have a vet16 of each class but my mag dk is my favorite play style. I find myself getting bored with the game and hope they come up with something for mag dk in the near future.

Ishammael

WoW.

Agreed on all points.

Since we're probably never going to get dynamic ultimate back, my suggestion is to add minor and/or major heroism to DK skills.

CP5

I have to say this was a very good collection of ideas. I can see both of my dk's using a lot of these skills and it would be hard to pick which skills to use. That said I love these ideas but have a few minor nit-picking that I feel compelled to say.

1.) Chains provides cc immunity to the target, likely so they don't get chain pulled. The dps morph wouldn't have a problem with that (and I would finally be satisfied going back to my dw dk) but the tank morphs would be insane. With enough cost reduction+regen that being spammed would essentially be an unbreakable root, with the dk pulling the target back after they roll away. However there has to be something better than leaving that poorly placed cc immunity on the skill.

2.) Reflective Scales is a good skill, completely negating 100% of projectiles damage and dealing 100-135% of it back to the target (assuming ZOS fixes bugs where it fails). With guard and infinite projectiles it would only take 1 dk in the middle of a group to negate all single target projectiles for everyone, a role I would love to use with my own dk but could turn out poorly. Perhaps the magicka resist morph gets the unlimited projectiles but either a.) deals much less damage with each projectile or b.) heavily reduces their damage. Infinite reflects with full or more damage is powerful, i'm just saying balance it with care.

Aside from those I feel you are underestimating the pace they can change things but overall I love these ideas.

SneaK

Yes.

Armitas

Joy_Division wrote: »

Morph2:. The DPS version. Always pulls *you* to any target that any other gap-closer can hit. Range is standard. Two ways to do this: 1) modest damage + the force of the DK slamming into the opponent knocks them down. 2) Potentially high damage + no CC (make damage based on the distance traveled like the Critical Rush skill and has high fire damage over time to discourage spamming)

Great thread. Funny how just about everything they have changed and added to DK has just been bad for us. I liked everything you added but I'm so torn on this fiery grip change.

I think morph 1 should be pull only of course for PvE like you said. Nothing is worse than having everything in a DPS pile including the boss and pulling that last mob and get pulled to it instead, boss turns around to face your new position and wipes the group in a big cleave. Happened to me last week, sigh. But I really like the ability to pull and push in the the other morph.

I used to feel the same way about chains but because I can no longer handle the stamina requirements in PvP I have been forced into using this for my gap closer and I'm finding it to be an absolutely amazing skill so long as it doesn't bug out. I can pull people into my banner and talons them, or pull them into my group and talons them and by the time they get some distance the CC immunity is down and I can pull them right back and talon them again. I can pretty much lock anyone down where I want them and I can forward gap close when I want by picking a CC immune target. I can throw a sorc an entire bolts worth behind me, or forward gap close through a Root making it so I don't even have to roll out of roots. I can even use the pull to interrupt a cast. The amount of mobility and battlefield management it has is incredible but it takes a lot of getting used to. I still get pulled when I mean to pull my opponent and I still remove any possibility of having a hard CC in my build but the bi nature of it is an amazingly ready tool box to manage a dynamic battlefield. I'm really torn on what to do with this skill.

If they can just fix this to be reliable and not bug out all the time I think people will get to use it long enough to love it despite the sometimes unpredictable nature of it and the free CC immunity it hands out. The sad thing is you can still get into keeps and towers with chains and you don't even need an enemy player to pull you up. The actual guard NPCs will pull you up on their own (ZOS let me know if you want to know how).

EDIT. I thought of one way to get the best of both worlds...Remove the CC immunity provided to NPC's to and from Chains. This way there are no mishaps in PvE because chains will always pull mobs, and you will always forward gap close bosses, which is actually helpful if the boss teleports and you are using molten whip for dps. When the player enters PvP it will work just as it does now, so that can be morph 1 and take care of PvE without losing that PvP toolbox.

Joy_Division

CP5 wrote: »

I have to say this was a very good collection of ideas. I can see both of my dk's using a lot of these skills and it would be hard to pick which skills to use. That said I love these ideas but have a few minor nit-picking that I feel compelled to say.

1.) Chains provides cc immunity to the target, likely so they don't get chain pulled. The dps morph wouldn't have a problem with that (and I would finally be satisfied going back to my dw dk) but the tank morphs would be insane. With enough cost reduction+regen that being spammed would essentially be an unbreakable root, with the dk pulling the target back after they roll away. However there has to be something better than leaving that poorly placed cc immunity on the skill.

2.) Reflective Scales is a good skill, completely negating 100% of projectiles damage and dealing 100-135% of it back to the target (assuming ZOS fixes bugs where it fails). With guard and infinite projectiles it would only take 1 dk in the middle of a group to negate all single target projectiles for everyone, a role I would love to use with my own dk but could turn out poorly. Perhaps the magicka resist morph gets the unlimited projectiles but either a.) deals much less damage with each projectile or b.) heavily reduces their damage. Infinite reflects with full or more damage is powerful, i'm just saying balance it with care.

Aside from those I feel you are underestimating the pace they can change things but overall I love these ideas.

Thx for the feedback. I appreciate that you feel these tweaks can work and that you even would have to spend some time thinking about which morph to use (which should always be the goal!)

If I understand the disorient condition correctly, if this is broken, the user gets CC immunity. A person who is chained and breaks it could not be pulled again by a DK until that immunity went away (which is how the skill currently functions). The point here is that if chains is going to provide CC immunity, the target needs to be CCed. I'd rather not stun them or knock them down, which was why I think disorient serves the trick. We see eye to eye here

I do not see the scales exploit you are describing playing out. If such a tactic worked, it could be done right now: DKs can certainly flap enough (magicka regeneration is not difficult to come by), rather the Guard skill is a huge stamina drain. Even then:

• Isn't the potential problem with the guard skill? Why do DKs need to suffer because of an alliance skill nobody uses?
• Shouldn't the order of business be to actually observe and confirm an exploit exists and then take prompt action to remove it rather than allow a skill to be undermined for the fear of a potential loophole?
• If the reflected damage is reduced, then that undermines the purpose of this skill. If a ranged DPS agrees with the 4 reflected projectile nerf, then they already are not deterred by this ability as they have no problems firing their projectiles at a DK since they believe the collateral damage is an acceptable price to pay as eventually those projectiles will get through. If the damage is much less as you suggest might be balanced, then the deterrent or fear of firing a projectile at a DK no longer exists.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying that for some strange reason, the narrative regarding balance for Reflective Scales is different than others. When the issue of cloak is raised, NBs say L2P, there are counters. When the issue of sorcerer shields comes up, they say they have no heal, there are counters, L2P. When Jesus beam comes up, Templars say counter it by bashing, interrupting, cleansing, L2P. When this skill comes up, L2P is throw out the window and the discussion moves on how certain builds and play-styles are inconvenienced or how it could be exploited.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Agreed with it but side note about the 0% stamina regen and reduce damage dealt by 50% when block casting. My thing is remove block casting from the game period none of this reduce damage while block casting the mechanic it self is broken and can never be fixed and just has to be removed period.

Idea of it being removed is when you are blocking your skills are greyed out and can not be used as long as you are hitting your block button and you can not block or under go the blocking mechanic while using a skill. So if you hold the block button while in the middle of using a skill you will not be blocking and will still receive full damage while using a skill and will not raise block till you are done with the skill.

RoamingRiverElk

THIS.

Excellent thread.

It really, Really captures the essence of the DragonKnight.

The way it was meant to be. The way it is meant to be.

dodgehopper_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

I have to say this was a very good collection of ideas. I can see both of my dk's using a lot of these skills and it would be hard to pick which skills to use. That said I love these ideas but have a few minor nit-picking that I feel compelled to say.

1.) Chains provides cc immunity to the target, likely so they don't get chain pulled. The dps morph wouldn't have a problem with that (and I would finally be satisfied going back to my dw dk) but the tank morphs would be insane. With enough cost reduction+regen that being spammed would essentially be an unbreakable root, with the dk pulling the target back after they roll away. However there has to be something better than leaving that poorly placed cc immunity on the skill.

2.) Reflective Scales is a good skill, completely negating 100% of projectiles damage and dealing 100-135% of it back to the target (assuming ZOS fixes bugs where it fails). With guard and infinite projectiles it would only take 1 dk in the middle of a group to negate all single target projectiles for everyone, a role I would love to use with my own dk but could turn out poorly. Perhaps the magicka resist morph gets the unlimited projectiles but either a.) deals much less damage with each projectile or b.) heavily reduces their damage. Infinite reflects with full or more damage is powerful, i'm just saying balance it with care.

Aside from those I feel you are underestimating the pace they can change things but overall I love these ideas.

I can accept Reflective scales being unlimited if defensive posture gets the same treatment.

In regards to what the OP is saying, I agree with a lot of points, and honestly I feel Tanks of all stripes fall prey to similar issues. I do not feel that DK is in a worse position than Templar, in large part because Templar is and has been always the most clunky non-synergistic but very cool looking steaming pile of dog poo since the start. The new game meta seems to make Stamina highly necessary while at the same time making magic still necessary to properly tank. Health has little to no bearing toward tankiness, and in some cases (sorcerers particularly) having high health is a detriment. Templar Sun Shield has been nerfed so many times it barely resembles its original intention, despite looking the same as its animation. The bounceback damage from Blazing Shield is barely a tickle, even with a huge health bar, and as a shield it has extremely brief duration, high cost, and low scaling. It is much easier to scale up Obsidian or hardened ward or the like, and even NB's have the fire and forget Blur. Templar also lost a tanking skill (Blinding Flashes) in favor of the dps Radiant Oppression. Templars likewise have block and spell resist as part of their passives. In short Templars have gone from being a Tank/Heal class to a Heal/DPS class with abilities that are intended for tanking but don't cut it. Long story short, Templars and DK's are in the same boat. It might be easier to be a spelljamming healbot Tanklar than a magic based DK, but I think the issues of class theme are damaged here, and a tanky magic role in pvp equates to 'healer' in pve for Templars. This means that as someone who played Templar Tank before I am growing progressively jaded with the class, and finding I'd much rather play it as a dps role now.

The concern I have with the game as a whole at this point is that the DPS role is getting much of the Developer love, and has for a great deal of time. The removal of soft caps, the addition of the champion system, the scaling of damage off of Mag/Stam, the loss of stamina regeneration while blocking, the scaling cost increases of dodge rolling have all led to a strange movement of the game toward the DPS with near equal tankability to a true tank, and simultaneous damage increase of 400% or more. It is nonsense and they really need to rethink this. These changes are bad not only for Dragon Knights but also Templars.

I just want to add before people say that Templar has it better than DK, a few things. DK's have much better cc's than Templars. Templar gets: Binding Javelin (weak knockdown cc), Blazing Spear (single target weak hold and taoe dmg), a very weak interrupt off the Charge, and some weak snares on flare & bane. DK gets Talons (massive pbaoe root), Fossilize (extremely strong on-target hold), Chain Pull, Stone Fist (better version of Javelin with a heal), Cinders (taoe snare, miss chance, damage), and a panoply of flame-based aoe snares. DK's also have skils that actually work, and work as intended. They don't work as well as they use to, but they work more flimsily, more in line with the way Templar/NB skills were. Templars also have skills that have either never worked right, or have generally changed from one wrong to another. Eclipse for instance is an obvious counter to posture/scales but unless they've fixed the bug it actually gives DK's a boost to run speed. Eclipse is hard to target and despite being a debuff it gives the target cc immunity (and its not a cc), it can also be purged. If eclipse were treated as damage first, and debuff second this would be acceptable, but because of its difficult to use nature it is a very bad skill to take up 10% of your skill slots. Templar skills are generally slow and telegraph. Even Biting jabs which is lauded for its dps is easily avoidable: Just roll through it and laugh at the templar stuck in his animation. Dark flare has a long windup and is easily flapped/blocked. Radiant oppression is only good if you're a magic build, and therefore has taken away something valuable from the tank repertoire. Tanks are now HUNGRY for stamina, and I personally find it easier to feed my stamina as a DK than as a Templar. Repentance is a great skill, but it relies on weak npc's to feed it or a mound of dead bodies (when you no longer need it), whereas mountain blessing, Healing hands and battle roar directly replenish needed resources while also maintaining tankiness of abilities. In this respect, I feel DK has always been a more synergistic class with one ability feeding into the next.

The main point I'm making here is that the game is actually pushing us as players to play our characters as Templar (healer), DK (tank), and NB/Sorc (whatever you want). The reason I'm upset about Templars is that the Tank (my preferred role) has become a big mess, and it was an obvious option at the start. The core of the problem is that the overarching game systems have completely changed, and Templar was a flawed concept to begin with. The Templar has always felt like a second-stringer and pretty much everyone assumes it is a Healers only class.

DK's are just now facing some of the issues commonly dealth with by Templars for a very long time. If you are a stamina based tank though, I would consider the DK in a much stronger position than the Templar. Templars do well with Stamina Dps but playing the stamina-leaning Templar Tank is another story altogether. In terms of a gameplay experience, Magicka Templar is pretty strong, but I couldn't call it a true tank. Its a healing build with some resiliency. The magic DK on the other hand can really hold its own in this role, and it does do strong damage. From what I understand DK's will also be getting an actual execute instead of the molten weapons buff which was an attempt on ZoS part I think to change a DK heavy attack into an execute. This might have been a good idea if molten weapons wasn't such a brief buff with animation time. The cycle might have worked out to something like Fossilize--> Armaments ---> heavy attack -or- Armaments ---> Fossilize ---> Heavy attack. The problem with the change was that the power was completely overpowered in previous iterations granting huge amounts of damage to the whole team as well as the user, and lasting for a minute, all for a pittance in magicka cost. It was singlehandedly one of the most effective and efficient powers in the game once upon a time. The nerf hammer hit this one so hard it became barely recognizable and barely useful, I'll grant that. I'm of the opinion that NO self buff in the game should last for less than 15 seconds and should really last for more like 30. Between lag, responsiveness to actions around you, and the necessity for combinations anything less than this really means that such an ability bites into overall effectiveness.

Really, I just wish classes didn't even exist. That way if the developers break something you can simply abandon what is broken for what works at any time.

Domander

Chains needs it's own immunity.

dodgehopper_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I have to say this was a very good collection of ideas. I can see both of my dk's using a lot of these skills and it would be hard to pick which skills to use. That said I love these ideas but have a few minor nit-picking that I feel compelled to say.

1.) Chains provides cc immunity to the target, likely so they don't get chain pulled. The dps morph wouldn't have a problem with that (and I would finally be satisfied going back to my dw dk) but the tank morphs would be insane. With enough cost reduction+regen that being spammed would essentially be an unbreakable root, with the dk pulling the target back after they roll away. However there has to be something better than leaving that poorly placed cc immunity on the skill.

2.) Reflective Scales is a good skill, completely negating 100% of projectiles damage and dealing 100-135% of it back to the target (assuming ZOS fixes bugs where it fails). With guard and infinite projectiles it would only take 1 dk in the middle of a group to negate all single target projectiles for everyone, a role I would love to use with my own dk but could turn out poorly. Perhaps the magicka resist morph gets the unlimited projectiles but either a.) deals much less damage with each projectile or b.) heavily reduces their damage. Infinite reflects with full or more damage is powerful, i'm just saying balance it with care.

Aside from those I feel you are underestimating the pace they can change things but overall I love these ideas.

Thx for the feedback. I appreciate that you feel these tweaks can work and that you even would have to spend some time thinking about which morph to use (which should always be the goal!)

If I understand the disorient condition correctly, if this is broken, the user gets CC immunity. A person who is chained and breaks it could not be pulled again by a DK until that immunity went away (which is how the skill currently functions). The point here is that if chains is going to provide CC immunity, the target needs to be CCed. I'd rather not stun them or knock them down, which was why I think disorient serves the trick. We see eye to eye here

I do not see the scales exploit you are describing playing out. If such a tactic worked, it could be done right now: DKs can certainly flap enough (magicka regeneration is not difficult to come by), rather the Guard skill is a huge stamina drain. Even then:

• Isn't the potential problem with the guard skill? Why do DKs need to suffer because of an alliance skill nobody uses?
• Shouldn't the order of business be to actually observe and confirm an exploit exists and then take prompt action to remove it rather than allow a skill to be undermined for the fear of a potential loophole?
• If the reflected damage is reduced, then that undermines the purpose of this skill. If a ranged DPS agrees with the 4 reflected projectile nerf, then they already are not deterred by this ability as they have no problems firing their projectiles at a DK since they believe the collateral damage is an acceptable price to pay as eventually those projectiles will get through. If the damage is much less as you suggest might be balanced, then the deterrent or fear of firing a projectile at a DK no longer exists.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying that for some strange reason, the narrative regarding balance for Reflective Scales is different than others. When the issue of cloak is raised, NBs say L2P, there are counters. When the issue of sorcerer shields comes up, they say they have no heal, there are counters, L2P. When Jesus beam comes up, Templars say counter it by bashing, interrupting, cleansing, L2P. When this skill comes up, L2P is throw out the window and the discussion moves on how certain builds and play-styles are inconvenienced or how it could be exploited.

I'd rather see a functioning blinding flashes than the laserbeam anyway. I'm not the only Templar that dislikes where ZoS has taken the class either. Some of us intended to play the obvious knight/crusader build which has been slowly eroded and has never been optimal for the class.

CP5

Joy_Division wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I have to say this was a very good collection of ideas. I can see both of my dk's using a lot of these skills and it would be hard to pick which skills to use. That said I love these ideas but have a few minor nit-picking that I feel compelled to say.

1.) Chains provides cc immunity to the target, likely so they don't get chain pulled. The dps morph wouldn't have a problem with that (and I would finally be satisfied going back to my dw dk) but the tank morphs would be insane. With enough cost reduction+regen that being spammed would essentially be an unbreakable root, with the dk pulling the target back after they roll away. However there has to be something better than leaving that poorly placed cc immunity on the skill.

2.) Reflective Scales is a good skill, completely negating 100% of projectiles damage and dealing 100-135% of it back to the target (assuming ZOS fixes bugs where it fails). With guard and infinite projectiles it would only take 1 dk in the middle of a group to negate all single target projectiles for everyone, a role I would love to use with my own dk but could turn out poorly. Perhaps the magicka resist morph gets the unlimited projectiles but either a.) deals much less damage with each projectile or b.) heavily reduces their damage. Infinite reflects with full or more damage is powerful, i'm just saying balance it with care.

Aside from those I feel you are underestimating the pace they can change things but overall I love these ideas.

Thx for the feedback. I appreciate that you feel these tweaks can work and that you even would have to spend some time thinking about which morph to use (which should always be the goal!)

If I understand the disorient condition correctly, if this is broken, the user gets CC immunity. A person who is chained and breaks it could not be pulled again by a DK until that immunity went away (which is how the skill currently functions). The point here is that if chains is going to provide CC immunity, the target needs to be CCed. I'd rather not stun them or knock them down, which was why I think disorient serves the trick. We see eye to eye here

I do not see the scales exploit you are describing playing out. If such a tactic worked, it could be done right now: DKs can certainly flap enough (magicka regeneration is not difficult to come by), rather the Guard skill is a huge stamina drain. Even then:

• Isn't the potential problem with the guard skill? Why do DKs need to suffer because of an alliance skill nobody uses?
• Shouldn't the order of business be to actually observe and confirm an exploit exists and then take prompt action to remove it rather than allow a skill to be undermined for the fear of a potential loophole?
• If the reflected damage is reduced, then that undermines the purpose of this skill. If a ranged DPS agrees with the 4 reflected projectile nerf, then they already are not deterred by this ability as they have no problems firing their projectiles at a DK since they believe the collateral damage is an acceptable price to pay as eventually those projectiles will get through. If the damage is much less as you suggest might be balanced, then the deterrent or fear of firing a projectile at a DK no longer exists.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying that for some strange reason, the narrative regarding balance for Reflective Scales is different than others. When the issue of cloak is raised, NBs say L2P, there are counters. When the issue of sorcerer shields comes up, they say they have no heal, there are counters, L2P. When Jesus beam comes up, Templars say counter it by bashing, interrupting, cleansing, L2P. When this skill comes up, L2P is throw out the window and the discussion moves on how certain builds and play-styles are inconvenienced or how it could be exploited.

I'm just saying about scales, is that it completely negates the damage of incoming projectiles, and deals 100-135% of the damage of those projectiles, and ranges from light attacks to ultimates, and you can't do much about it other than wait or shoot yourself 4 times in the face and hope the dk doesn't recast. That is why I feel scales is in the odd spot it is, if there were an offensive purge that could clear hostile buffs, or if scales didn't have the potential to negate such a large range of damage and deal that negated damage, then it wouldn't have likely seen the change it got.

Auricle

This post really deserves a /lurk, don't you think @ZOS_RichLambert ?

Desolationz

Totally agree was just about to make a thread just like this.

MaximillianDiE

Endorsed - I want to stay magicka I really do but its getting harder and harder...

Wollust

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Agreed with it but side note about the 0% stamina regen and reduce damage dealt by 50% when block casting. My thing is remove block casting from the game period none of this reduce damage while block casting the mechanic it self is broken and can never be fixed and just has to be removed period.

Idea of it being removed is when you are blocking your skills are greyed out and can not be used as long as you are hitting your block button and you can not block or under go the blocking mechanic while using a skill. So if you hold the block button while in the middle of using a skill you will not be blocking and will still receive full damage while using a skill and will not raise block till you are done with the skill.

No. Seriously. No.

Domander

While I appreciate the effort, where are the intended functions listed?

Forestd16b14_ESO

Wollust wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Agreed with it but side note about the 0% stamina regen and reduce damage dealt by 50% when block casting. My thing is remove block casting from the game period none of this reduce damage while block casting the mechanic it self is broken and can never be fixed and just has to be removed period.

Idea of it being removed is when you are blocking your skills are greyed out and can not be used as long as you are hitting your block button and you can not block or under go the blocking mechanic while using a skill. So if you hold the block button while in the middle of using a skill you will not be blocking and will still receive full damage while using a skill and will not raise block till you are done with the skill.

No. Seriously. No.

Afraid that you wont be as good as you think with out abusing a broken mechanic?

dodgehopper_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I have to say this was a very good collection of ideas. I can see both of my dk's using a lot of these skills and it would be hard to pick which skills to use. That said I love these ideas but have a few minor nit-picking that I feel compelled to say.

1.) Chains provides cc immunity to the target, likely so they don't get chain pulled. The dps morph wouldn't have a problem with that (and I would finally be satisfied going back to my dw dk) but the tank morphs would be insane. With enough cost reduction+regen that being spammed would essentially be an unbreakable root, with the dk pulling the target back after they roll away. However there has to be something better than leaving that poorly placed cc immunity on the skill.

2.) Reflective Scales is a good skill, completely negating 100% of projectiles damage and dealing 100-135% of it back to the target (assuming ZOS fixes bugs where it fails). With guard and infinite projectiles it would only take 1 dk in the middle of a group to negate all single target projectiles for everyone, a role I would love to use with my own dk but could turn out poorly. Perhaps the magicka resist morph gets the unlimited projectiles but either a.) deals much less damage with each projectile or b.) heavily reduces their damage. Infinite reflects with full or more damage is powerful, i'm just saying balance it with care.

Aside from those I feel you are underestimating the pace they can change things but overall I love these ideas.

Thx for the feedback. I appreciate that you feel these tweaks can work and that you even would have to spend some time thinking about which morph to use (which should always be the goal!)

If I understand the disorient condition correctly, if this is broken, the user gets CC immunity. A person who is chained and breaks it could not be pulled again by a DK until that immunity went away (which is how the skill currently functions). The point here is that if chains is going to provide CC immunity, the target needs to be CCed. I'd rather not stun them or knock them down, which was why I think disorient serves the trick. We see eye to eye here

I do not see the scales exploit you are describing playing out. If such a tactic worked, it could be done right now: DKs can certainly flap enough (magicka regeneration is not difficult to come by), rather the Guard skill is a huge stamina drain. Even then:

• Isn't the potential problem with the guard skill? Why do DKs need to suffer because of an alliance skill nobody uses?
• Shouldn't the order of business be to actually observe and confirm an exploit exists and then take prompt action to remove it rather than allow a skill to be undermined for the fear of a potential loophole?
• If the reflected damage is reduced, then that undermines the purpose of this skill. If a ranged DPS agrees with the 4 reflected projectile nerf, then they already are not deterred by this ability as they have no problems firing their projectiles at a DK since they believe the collateral damage is an acceptable price to pay as eventually those projectiles will get through. If the damage is much less as you suggest might be balanced, then the deterrent or fear of firing a projectile at a DK no longer exists.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying that for some strange reason, the narrative regarding balance for Reflective Scales is different than others. When the issue of cloak is raised, NBs say L2P, there are counters. When the issue of sorcerer shields comes up, they say they have no heal, there are counters, L2P. When Jesus beam comes up, Templars say counter it by bashing, interrupting, cleansing, L2P. When this skill comes up, L2P is throw out the window and the discussion moves on how certain builds and play-styles are inconvenienced or how it could be exploited.

I'm just saying about scales, is that it completely negates the damage of incoming projectiles, and deals 100-135% of the damage of those projectiles, and ranges from light attacks to ultimates, and you can't do much about it other than wait or shoot yourself 4 times in the face and hope the dk doesn't recast. That is why I feel scales is in the odd spot it is, if there were an offensive purge that could clear hostile buffs, or if scales didn't have the potential to negate such a large range of damage and deal that negated damage, then it wouldn't have likely seen the change it got.

This is what i have always felt eclipse was for, but it has never worked very well.

Shunravi

Very good post.

Derra

If scales wasn´t so buggy it would still be one of the best skills in the game. Nothing to revert here especially as everything bypassing scales is blockable dmg now.

Fix stealth attacks ignoring scales and that skill is fine.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I would hate to see more unnecessary nerfs but your changes put DK right back where they were in 1.5.

The blocking nerf hit every one hard everyone but Dragon Knights. As people brag here on the forums about how their builds can still perma block. Infinite amount of reflected attacks means once again it will be all about regen. Not bad on it's own but add AoE miss chance. You would be forced into Melee range and if you do land a hit though to cloud you will be hitting the Tankliest class.

Dragon Knights need more options but making them unkillable again is not the way.

Wollust

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Agreed with it but side note about the 0% stamina regen and reduce damage dealt by 50% when block casting. My thing is remove block casting from the game period none of this reduce damage while block casting the mechanic it self is broken and can never be fixed and just has to be removed period.

Idea of it being removed is when you are blocking your skills are greyed out and can not be used as long as you are hitting your block button and you can not block or under go the blocking mechanic while using a skill. So if you hold the block button while in the middle of using a skill you will not be blocking and will still receive full damage while using a skill and will not raise block till you are done with the skill.

No. Seriously. No.

Afraid that you wont be as good as you think with out abusing a broken mechanic?

I used to be a perma blocker with my dk in 1.6. and I think I can say from myself that I was a pretty good DK. Nowadays i hardly ever block simply because I don't find the need for it 90% of the time. If I block it's because I need to heal up or reposition myself. So no, I'm not really afraid, I'm still good.
By the way, how come you can call it a broken mechanic and abuse of it? How did you get the right to say so? Just because you don't like it?
Block casting is a good thing, allowing people to play as tanks in PVP (even though I'm sometimes annoyed by it). If block casting would be gone you'd take away a whole playstyle. Oh and it would also help out the steel tornado zerglings to kill smaller groups faster. Well done mate. I see you have some good thoughts about it.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Agreed with it but side note about the 0% stamina regen and reduce damage dealt by 50% when block casting. My thing is remove block casting from the game period none of this reduce damage while block casting the mechanic it self is broken and can never be fixed and just has to be removed period.

Idea of it being removed is when you are blocking your skills are greyed out and can not be used as long as you are hitting your block button and you can not block or under go the blocking mechanic while using a skill. So if you hold the block button while in the middle of using a skill you will not be blocking and will still receive full damage while using a skill and will not raise block till you are done with the skill.

No. Seriously. No.

Afraid that you wont be as good as you think with out abusing a broken mechanic?

Your proposal of greying out skills and not being able to block while using a skill shows that you don't understand a core mechanic of the combat system.

On a side note, block casting with 1h/shield already deals less damage because of missing spell power and the need to invest into stamina/block cost reduction.

Armitas

I really hope they comment on the DK in the upcoming ESO live.

seitekisaki

You've made a brilliant post I hope we get word of something good happening soon.

Cuyler

Great post! I totally agree.

Just want to point out...some of your solutions are "ZOS needs to find a solution". That's honestly what needs to be done (ZOS do it!), but maybe suggest a solution there as well. ex. iron skin and obsidian shield.

Tankqull

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBxu_2H9ANU


well the only change i would agree to beside fixing the horrible hight protection - would be a change to GDB to be usefull in pvp again (sth like double cost and vigor like hot effect added to it)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Tankqull wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBxu_2H9ANU


well the only change i would agree to beside fixing the horrible hight protection - would be a change to GDB to be usefull in pvp again (sth like double cost and vigor like hot effect added to it)

I deleted one of my Nightblades and made a Dragon Knight. I Don't see what's wrong with Green Dragon's Blood it pops me out of execute range and with class passives buff all heals. Giving my HoTs time to do their thing but also adds health and Stamina regen that's higher then my Nightblade's one was same Tank set up points in the same place 5 heavy to 2 Light, same gear.

So Dragon Knights can't force every Ranger in to a melee fight and hold block the whole time. Welcome to Mortality.

Alcast

Please do NOT touch my Molten Armaments, tyvm.
Scales is fine IF it would work reliably...sometimes it does not reflect stuff >< Giving it unlimited amounts again would make it way too powerful.
Fiery grip like Silver leash got rekt by the max hight difference of 5m and then you can NOT use the skill at all anymore..apart from that it is a good gapcloser bc it pulls you to the enemy lul