Class Balance vs Zergs: The Nightblade Edition

PrinceRyzen

Cathexis wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

As I have said in other posts:

Cloak currently gives nightblades the capacity to control when fights begin AND end, at any time, regardless of counters.
Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).
Currently no other class besides the nightblade now has this capacity
The rationalization to make changes to cloak is simple: the capacity to control fights in this manner was deemed, by popular opinion, to be imbalanced.

The problem with cloak spam is not that every player is op, it is that in some instances it can be used to effectively evade entire groups of players for indefinite periods of time. Its like playing the cyrodiil edition of where's waldo.

This is the thing that makes these discussion challenging.

Your building a case on false information.

1. Cloak gives nightblade a the ability to dictate when fights begin and end at anytime, regardless of counters.

Response: the is just false. Hit cloak in front of someone using magelight, detect potions, piercing mark, aoes, etc. nightblade cloaks will fail every time. As it's been stated the nightblade has to dodge-escape counters prior to cloak being of use. Standing in caltrops spamming cloak dictates nothing.

2. Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).

Response: False. If encased, in talons or in aoe range activating cloak will NOT get you out of said attacks. Bolt escape will. What accomplished that for nightblade is dodge roll and that got the same treatment as bolt. When a sorcerer is not escaping and mid battle needs to mitigate damage they use shields. For nightblades their mitigation comes from cloak.

Lastly, no counters of bolt prevented it from being used. Counters of cloak render it unusable. To imply that their counters are equal is to spread more misinformation.

TL:DR Your rational for what is imbalanced is based on false info. Bolt escape and dodge roll were nerfed the same for having the same usage. Heals, shields, etc are for other classes what cloak is for nightblades. If their defense abilities are free to use without penalty so should nightblades.

1. Response

1. You have the capacity to purge or use cc breaking abilities like any other class. Obviously you don't stand in caltrops, you reposition.?? Also you are listing counters which, as I stated, the argument is irrespective of??. 2.You think bolt didn't have counters? Basically any gap closer, other sorcs with bolt, snipe (probably equivalent to potions, I used to kill sorcs at 45 meters with 30k snipes all the time). 4. The issue isn't that there are sufficient counters. The issue is that without counters, and even with counters in some instances 4. I have experienced, nightblades can completely evade damage indefinitely.

2. Response

I have fought lots of good nightblades who do not dependent solely on cloak for survival. 1. The fact that you lack the capacity to play without cloak isn't grounds to suggest that cloak should be left as it is. in fact, logically if you can depend entirely upon one ability for defense it arguably should be nerfed. 2. Not all sorcs spam sheilds for defense, stamina sorcs do not typically use shields at all (speaking from experience). Sorc shields were also nerfed you might recall for the same reasons.. Sorcs were able to depend entirely on a single skill for defense. 3. As far as bolt acting entirely as a purge, that isn't exactly true either. Bolt can be cast through cc, but you still remain ccd.

Maybe you should also consider that NBS also have lots of other damage mitigating abilities like fear, arguably the most powerful aoe cc in the game. You also can't say that nightblades lack the capacity to heal, nightblades have access to all the same classless healing abilities everyone else does and they have some of the best syphoning skills in the game as well.

4. The illusion of cloak dependence just isn't true.

You're still building arguments on false info. Even more so your discussion is left field.

Few things in your first response.

1. You have the capacity to purge or use cc breaking abilities like any other class.

So? All classes have access to invisibility potions. It doesn't change the fact that you stating cloak allows nightblades to begin and end fights at anytime regardless of counters is false.

2. Quote where I stated " I think" there are no counters to bolt escape. I never did. And I've already broke down why cloak is NOT a nightblades bolt escape. Yet again, its brought up. Why?

What I stated was that their counters weren't equal. Use a gap closer on a sorc. You'll notice he was still able to bolt escape away from your teammates. Counters that break/prevent cloak make nightblades vulnerable to all enemies. Hence, they are not equal. Cloak =/= bolt escape

4. In this part of your response you state that the issue isn't that there aren't sufficient counters. (Meaning there are) You state the issue is YOU have experienced nightblades can completely evade damage indefinitely.

I Agree! As Ive already stated its your ability to land your counters vs there ability to dodge them If YOU fail to utilize sufficient counters do not blame working abilities.

And your second response.

1. "The fact that you lack the capacity to play without cloak isn't grounds to suggest that cloak should be left as it is."

Never in any of my post did i ever mention lacking any capacity. You just made that up. So how is it your telling me not to use my capacity/experience as grounds for cloak to be left alone. Yet in both your responses you literally specify it being from your experience. Ironic that you use your capacity as grounds for a nerf.

2. Stamina nightblades cant spam cloak.

3. No one stated bolt acted as a purge. Dodge and bolt are used to escape. And again, cloak is NOT bolt escape for nightblades.

4. Illusion of Cloak Dependence??

I have no issues discussing the merits of each perspective. I believe its a good thing to consider each angle. But either you're making too many assumptions or you're intentionally making things up to strengthen your argument. My main points aren't even what you've attempted to counter. It seems that you're countering statements I didn't make.

btw. My wall of text fuel is gone. I'm usually the guy who skips them. lol

Telel

Ernest145 wrote: »

Im not going to go into arguing on everything but as for the pve mobs in IC it is *** how when a nightblade cloaks they aggro whoever else. When I play on my night blade and I'm fighting someone in IC and mobs get pulled (which happens 90 percent of them time) all have to do is cloak once and they all target whoever is attacking me and they obviously insta die and I can cloak away and laugh. When it comes to player vs player and no mobs are around then cloak is fine imo, but when you have the power to let all the mobs aggro who you are fighting then I think its overpowered. This is a huge deal because of how hard the mobs in IC hit and it really needs to be addressed. A majicka night blade can easily just sap essence off these mobs and heal so I really think they shouldn't be able just to cloak and have everything aggro the other person.

You must not have fought the mobs who see through invis or activate radiant magelight after you cloak the first time.

Telel has though, and it can make fleeing the stunlock brigade quite the hassle.