Class Balance vs Zergs: The Nightblade Edition

PrinceRyzen

Zergs aren't just limited to in-game play. It also takes place on the forums. Recently Zergs have been strategically spamming cloak nerf threads.

My question is:

Is Zos looking for objectivity and reasoning to achieve balance?

Or

Is Zos catering to whatever the current Zerg wants?




If the former is true, then cloak should obviously not be reduced/nerfed.

Here's why

Point #1. I see many uninformed posts attempting to frame cloak for Nightblades to be what bolt escape is to sorcs. When bolt escape isn't in use, sorcs fall back on shields for defense. Nightblades have had their bolt escape nerfed (dodge roll) and their defense is cloak. Can sorcs spam shields when needed? Yes. Can Templars spam heals when needed? Yes. Then why are people attacking Nightblades for spaming their only class defense?

Class Shields, heals, etc. don't have cool downs, magick regen reductions, duration reduction, etc.. Nor should cloak.

Point #2 There's a gripe that night blades can stealth pass mobs... Are Templars able to heal mob damage? Yes. Are sorcs shields able to mitigate mob damage? Yes. Then why is it a huge issue that night blades intended class function also functions vs PVE mobs?

PVE mobs are an imperial city issue. It has NOTHING to do with nightblade balance vs other classes and should not cause changes to classes.


Point #3 For fear of tl:dr I'll stop at counters. There's a frequent uninformed statement that there is no "real" counter to cloak.... This of course is false. (it's more commonly a lie to incite nerfs.) Of all the class abilities cloak actually has the most counters. It's unique in that it's the only class ability that can be negated 100% by most of its counters. It's also the only class ability negated by a potion.

Here are a few counters

Caltrops - any nightblade standing in range has no access to cloak. 100% negation.
Magelight - any nightblade in range has their cloak 100% negated and as well it prevents all stuns from stealth in addition to reducing stealth damage taken...
Detect potion - only class negating potion in existence exclusively to cloak. When consumed, cloak is 100% negated.
Revealing flare
Magic det
Curse
Any Aoe
Etc, etc, etc..



But of course if the later is true and Zergs rule with no need for reason carry on. The only counter to Zergs is another Zerg.

Master_Kas

Good luck arguing All those counters you listed are not good enough. Moar nerfs !

Ernest145

Im not going to go into arguing on everything but as for the pve mobs in IC it is *** how when a nightblade cloaks they aggro whoever else. When I play on my night blade and I'm fighting someone in IC and mobs get pulled (which happens 90 percent of them time) all have to do is cloak once and they all target whoever is attacking me and they obviously insta die and I can cloak away and laugh. When it comes to player vs player and no mobs are around then cloak is fine imo, but when you have the power to let all the mobs aggro who you are fighting then I think its overpowered. This is a huge deal because of how hard the mobs in IC hit and it really needs to be addressed. A majicka night blade can easily just sap essence off these mobs and heal so I really think they shouldn't be able just to cloak and have everything aggro the other person.

Xeven

I rolled a MageBlade just because Cloak is so OP. I mean it is stupid ridiculous OP. I can perma cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other, all while traveling at the speed of light with my magicka bar at 100%. I can troll groups for days even if they have AOE, Magelight, Flare, Pots etc, simply because I am so ****ing fast while cloaked. You might see me for a second, but once I hit that double take combined with cloak speed bonus from CW, I am the fastest class in the game AND I'm ****ing invisible. Lol. I dont even use a horse. Seriously.

Anyone defending cloak needs to have their head checked. Cloak is ****ing absurd.

FriedEggSandwich

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Zergs aren't just limited to in-game play. It also takes place on the forums. Recently Zergs have been strategically spamming cloak nerf threads.

My question is:

Is Zos looking for objectivity and reasoning to achieve balance?

Or

Is Zos catering to whatever the current Zerg wants?




If the former is true, then cloak should obviously not be reduced/nerfed.

Here's why

Point #1. I see many uninformed posts attempting to frame cloak for Nightblades to be what bolt escape is to sorcs. When bolt escape isn't in use, sorcs fall back on shields for defense. Nightblades have had their bolt escape nerfed (dodge roll) and their defense is cloak. Can sorcs spam shields when needed? Yes. Can Templars spam heals when needed? Yes. Then why are people attacking Nightblades for spaming their only class defense?

Class Shields, heals, etc. don't have cool downs, magick regen reductions, duration reduction, etc.. Nor should cloak.

Point #2 There's a gripe that night blades can stealth pass mobs... Are Templars able to heal mob damage? Yes. Are sorcs shields able to mitigate mob damage? Yes. Then why is it a huge issue that night blades intended class function also functions vs PVE mobs?

PVE mobs are an imperial city issue. It has NOTHING to do with nightblade balance vs other classes and should not cause changes to classes.


Point #3 For fear of tl:dr I'll stop at counters. There's a frequent uninformed statement that there is no "real" counter to cloak.... This of course is false. (it's more commonly a lie to incite nerfs.) Of all the class abilities cloak actually has the most counters. It's unique in that it's the only class ability that can be negated 100% by most of its counters. It's also the only class ability negated by a potion.

Here are a few counters

Caltrops - any nightblade standing in range has no access to cloak. 100% negation.
Magelight - any nightblade in range has their cloak 100% negated and as well it prevents all stuns from stealth in addition to reducing stealth damage taken...
Detect potion - only class negating potion in existence exclusively to cloak. When consumed, cloak is 100% negated.
Revealing flare
Magic det
Curse
Any Aoe
Etc, etc, etc..



But of course if the later is true and Zergs rule with no need for reason carry on. The only counter to Zergs is another Zerg.

Caltrops is the best counter to cloak, but it costs me 6k stamina and I only have 14k. Curse no longer pulls NBs out of cloak so there goes my counter. I don't want cloak nerfed; I don't want anything else nerfed (except maybe proxy det - mine hits for 13k). I just want sorcs to get their cloak counters back. In 1.6 I considered myself bane-of-NB and I never used detect pots, didn't need to. Now the only realistic counter I have are detect pots, which waste 40 secs of pot time for 15 secs of detection.

It's just occurred to me that I could fit magelight on my overload bar so I might give that a go. I would just rather curse pulled NBs out of cloak again like it used to. No idea why zos nerfed curse in this way; I have to assume it was an accident/oversight because I never saw a NB seriously complain about curse, and it took some dedication to keep the curse up on them, wasn't like it was an I win button or anything.

nilldax

Xeven wrote: »

I rolled a MageBlade just because Cloak is so OP. I mean it is stupid ridiculous OP. I can perma cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other, all while traveling at the speed of light with my magicka bar at 100%. I can troll groups for days even if they have AOE, Magelight, Flare, Pots etc, simply because I am so ****ing fast while cloaked. You might see me for a second, but once I hit that double take combined with cloak speed bonus from CW, I am the fastest class in the game AND I'm ****ing invisible. Lol. I dont even use a horse. Seriously.

Anyone defending cloak needs to have their head checked. Cloak is ****ing absurd.

Perma-cloak is possible with, like you named it: Mageblade (hybrid focued or regens can achieve that too). Sacrifice for that "tacticaly cloaking" is, in my opinion, huge - why? Light armor doesnt provide much defences, meanwhile skills delayed-in-time removes that "awesome" invisiblity (not even metioning Piercing Mark), mobs (those with CC-immunity, elites, horrors, bosses), even one little mistake, like knockdown or being feared, leaves you vulnerable to any hard hitting attack. With speed bonus - any of snares, roots will hold you enough long to track down - and as Mageblade you dont have much ST for dodge rolls/blocking.
However, personaly i would like to see any so-called "nerf" change, or fixes for Cloak skill - negating ulties is kinda silly (Mages Guild ultimate as example), or invisible heavy attacks - its fun for me as NB but opposite player on the other side propably curses heavily in front of screen.

Xeniph

It's all a moot point:


Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

ZOS_GinaBruno
admin

Source: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2274406#Comment_2274406

People have always and will always complain about stealth mechanics in MMO's. However I have no idea why the discussion continues after this statement was made.

twistedmonk

honestly Zenimax needs to hire better game designers.

twistedmonk

Xeven wrote: »

I rolled a MageBlade just because Cloak is so OP. I mean it is stupid ridiculous OP. I can perma cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other, all while traveling at the speed of light with my magicka bar at 100%. I can troll groups for days even if they have AOE, Magelight, Flare, Pots etc, simply because I am so ****ing fast while cloaked. You might see me for a second, but once I hit that double take combined with cloak speed bonus from CW, I am the fastest class in the game AND I'm ****ing invisible. Lol. I dont even use a horse. Seriously.

Anyone defending cloak needs to have their head checked. Cloak is ****ing absurd.

right, you can troll, but you can't kill anybody. GG

seems pointless

Poxheart

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Zergs aren't just limited to in-game play. It also takes place on the forums. Recently Zergs have been strategically spamming cloak nerf threads.

My question is:

Is Zos looking for objectivity and reasoning to achieve balance?

Or

Is Zos catering to whatever the current Zerg wants?




If the former is true, then cloak should obviously not be reduced/nerfed.

Here's why

Point #1. I see many uninformed posts attempting to frame cloak for Nightblades to be what bolt escape is to sorcs. When bolt escape isn't in use, sorcs fall back on shields for defense. Nightblades have had their bolt escape nerfed (dodge roll) and their defense is cloak. Can sorcs spam shields when needed? Yes. Can Templars spam heals when needed? Yes. Then why are people attacking Nightblades for spaming their only class defense?

Class Shields, heals, etc. don't have cool downs, magick regen reductions, duration reduction, etc.. Nor should cloak.

Point #2 There's a gripe that night blades can stealth pass mobs... Are Templars able to heal mob damage? Yes. Are sorcs shields able to mitigate mob damage? Yes. Then why is it a huge issue that night blades intended class function also functions vs PVE mobs?

PVE mobs are an imperial city issue. It has NOTHING to do with nightblade balance vs other classes and should not cause changes to classes.


Point #3 For fear of tl:dr I'll stop at counters. There's a frequent uninformed statement that there is no "real" counter to cloak.... This of course is false. (it's more commonly a lie to incite nerfs.) Of all the class abilities cloak actually has the most counters. It's unique in that it's the only class ability that can be negated 100% by most of its counters. It's also the only class ability negated by a potion.

Here are a few counters

Caltrops - any nightblade standing in range has no access to cloak. 100% negation.
Magelight - any nightblade in range has their cloak 100% negated and as well it prevents all stuns from stealth in addition to reducing stealth damage taken...
Detect potion - only class negating potion in existence exclusively to cloak. When consumed, cloak is 100% negated.
Revealing flare
Magic det
Curse
Any Aoe
Etc, etc, etc..



But of course if the later is true and Zergs rule with no need for reason carry on. The only counter to Zergs is another Zerg.

And here we see bad Night Blade #129034023 checking in to defend cloak.

iliatha

Poxheart wrote: »

And here we see bad Night Blade #129034023 checking in to defend cloak.

Of course, cause ZOS seems to nerf everything that is asked for by a bunch of people. Thing is 95% of crying people seem not to have an idea what it means to play class XY in solo pvp. Its just horrible to see the attention those "nerf X / nerf Y, because-i-cant-beat-it-threads" are getting.
The best counter to cloack is obvious "mark target". Every "zerg" might have several nbs in it, who will negate cloack like completely.
Its just stupid to see those arguments. When half of the players that are crying here every day WOULD play solo pvp, there would be nothing else but solo players in cyrodiil and sewers. ITS NOT LIKE THAT and you dont even have to rely on "mark target". There are a bunch of good counters, try to use them and get better at the game.

So Im just raging a bit bout peoples attitude, dont think that ZOS will nerf NB or any class to not playable while solo. They didnt do it till now, why should it change. Anything else is just fine for me. Just this stupid crying makes me sick

eliisra

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Point #1. I see many uninformed posts attempting to frame cloak for Nightblades to be what bolt escape is to sorcs. When bolt escape isn't in use, sorcs fall back on shields for defense. Nightblades have had their bolt escape nerfed (dodge roll) and their defense is cloak. Can sorcs spam shields when needed? Yes. Can Templars spam heals when needed? Yes. Then why are people attacking Nightblades for spaming their only class defense?

Because defence mechanics and disengage mechanics aren't the same thing. Healing, shielding or blocking, you're still getting cc'ed, aggro'ed, rooted and damaged, prolonging the unavoidable, is what it does.

Cloak and Bolt Escape(mainly pior to the nerf) is disengage or escape mechanics. Allows you to fully disconnect, heal up, get resources back and than jump back when odds are in your favour. That's a pretty big difference.

And no, Cloak counters for magicka builds aren't good enough right now. You cant expect anyone to grind Support 7, than waste 3/10 skill slots only on NB counters with skills useless v.s anything else.

There's 4 different classes in this game you know, in normal PvP you face them all. But other classes aren't requiring that type of heavy counter builds right now and thank *** for that. How broke the game would be if you had to make anti-templar builds only to deal with a templar in open PvP, DK hunter builds only to kill a DK and so on. So why should NB's be special snowflakes, because it's your main?

nordickittyhawk

Poxheart wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Zergs aren't just limited to in-game play. It also takes place on the forums. Recently Zergs have been strategically spamming cloak nerf threads.

My question is:

Is Zos looking for objectivity and reasoning to achieve balance?

Or

Is Zos catering to whatever the current Zerg wants?




If the former is true, then cloak should obviously not be reduced/nerfed.

Here's why

Point #1. I see many uninformed posts attempting to frame cloak for Nightblades to be what bolt escape is to sorcs. When bolt escape isn't in use, sorcs fall back on shields for defense. Nightblades have had their bolt escape nerfed (dodge roll) and their defense is cloak. Can sorcs spam shields when needed? Yes. Can Templars spam heals when needed? Yes. Then why are people attacking Nightblades for spaming their only class defense?

Class Shields, heals, etc. don't have cool downs, magick regen reductions, duration reduction, etc.. Nor should cloak.

Point #2 There's a gripe that night blades can stealth pass mobs... Are Templars able to heal mob damage? Yes. Are sorcs shields able to mitigate mob damage? Yes. Then why is it a huge issue that night blades intended class function also functions vs PVE mobs?

PVE mobs are an imperial city issue. It has NOTHING to do with nightblade balance vs other classes and should not cause changes to classes.


Point #3 For fear of tl:dr I'll stop at counters. There's a frequent uninformed statement that there is no "real" counter to cloak.... This of course is false. (it's more commonly a lie to incite nerfs.) Of all the class abilities cloak actually has the most counters. It's unique in that it's the only class ability that can be negated 100% by most of its counters. It's also the only class ability negated by a potion.

Here are a few counters

Caltrops - any nightblade standing in range has no access to cloak. 100% negation.
Magelight - any nightblade in range has their cloak 100% negated and as well it prevents all stuns from stealth in addition to reducing stealth damage taken...
Detect potion - only class negating potion in existence exclusively to cloak. When consumed, cloak is 100% negated.
Revealing flare
Magic det
Curse
Any Aoe
Etc, etc, etc..



But of course if the later is true and Zergs rule with no need for reason carry on. The only counter to Zergs is another Zerg.

And here we see bad Night Blade #129034023 checking in to defend cloak.

How does it make him bad.. he is 100% right o,0 any NB not using cloak is bad... unless your a sap tank.

PrinceRyzen

eliisra wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Point #1. I see many uninformed posts attempting to frame cloak for Nightblades to be what bolt escape is to sorcs. When bolt escape isn't in use, sorcs fall back on shields for defense. Nightblades have had their bolt escape nerfed (dodge roll) and their defense is cloak. Can sorcs spam shields when needed? Yes. Can Templars spam heals when needed? Yes. Then why are people attacking Nightblades for spaming their only class defense?

Because defence mechanics and disengage mechanics aren't the same thing. Healing, shielding or blocking, you're still getting cc'ed, aggro'ed, rooted and damaged, prolonging the unavoidable, is what it does.

Cloak and Bolt Escape(mainly pior to the nerf) is disengage or escape mechanics. Allows you to fully disconnect, heal up, get resources back and than jump back when odds are in your favour. That's a pretty big difference.

And no, Cloak counters for magicka builds aren't good enough right now. You cant expect anyone to grind Support 7, than waste 3/10 skill slots only on NB counters with skills useless v.s anything else.

There's 4 different classes in this game you know, in normal PvP you face them all. But other classes aren't requiring that type of heavy counter builds right now and thank *** for that. How broke the game would be if you had to make anti-templar builds only to deal with a templar in open PvP, DK hunter builds only to kill a DK and so on. So why should NB's be special snowflakes, because it's your main?

Again, misinformation. What you've said here is false.

Cloak doesnt Free you from immobilizations, cc, roots, etc.. You get immobilized and cloak, you are still immobilized. Also, If a nightblade I standing in caltrops, cloak will not free them from the damage nor the snare. Aoes will continue to hit a nightblade when cloaked and break it. It only mitigates some damage just as shields and heals. Cloak doesn't achieve what you claim.

Cloak is what Nightblades use for defense. In order to escape (disengage) Nightblades must 1st create distance. To do this they they rely on double take, shades, retreating maneuvers, fear and of course things like dodge roll. These are akin to bolt escape. Not cloak. When being attacked directly, relying on cloak with out first escaping will get you killed. Nightblades disengage 1st then cloak.

And lastly, your claim that "cloak counters aren't good enough." Test caltrops, detect potions, magelight, etc. They work every single time. Every... Single.. Time.. 100%. No nightblade can cloak against them. (Ironically cloak often fails against non counters)


The issue is that it's your ability to land your counter attacks VS their ability to dodge them. When you get outplayed, don't blame working abilities.


P.S. You say we can't expect people to level enough to use the counters for Nightblades with skills useless vs anything else? But it's fair to expect Nightblades to face other classes they must counter on top of magelight, detect potions, mark, revealing flare, etc? Nightblades face the same enemies, classes, load out limitations and so on. The only difference is they have more counters against them on top of nerf requests for their only class defense.

AshTal

The issue is that a night blade cloak tends to get them out of any battle and no one can kill them.

However I tend to think its not your average nightblade that's the issue. These guys can't tend to solo a Vet 16 kill them in 2 seconds then cloak never to be seen. Its the handful of over powered players that are the issue, and while we all hate losing dying when you can do nothing about it, 2 surprise attacks, followed by fear, then 2 more surprise attacks and I am dead. I don't even have time to break the fear before I am dead. This is what annoys people.

Then again I get annoyed at DK's who reflect every attack or who can take me kicking everything I have into them and bearly notice. Maybe this will change on the champion point reset but I doubt it.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

AshTal wrote: »

The issue is that a night blade cloak tends to get them out of any battle and no one can kill them.

However I tend to think its not your average nightblade that's the issue. These guys can't tend to solo a Vet 16 kill them in 2 seconds then cloak never to be seen. Its the handful of over powered players that are the issue, and while we all hate losing dying when you can do nothing about it, 2 surprise attacks, followed by fear, then 2 more surprise attacks and I am dead. I don't even have time to break the fear before I am dead. This is what annoys people.

Then again I get annoyed at DK's who reflect every attack or who can take me kicking everything I have into them and bearly notice. Maybe this will change on the champion point reset but I doubt it.

I'm a stamina Bow - One Hand and Shield Nightblade sometimes Twohanded I can tell you with Rally critical heal hitting for 700hp it's better to go full on damage many Nightblades feel this way Surprise Attack is strong but when you have 3.5 weapon damage everything is strong.

Cloak is not the problem by a long shot. We can't heal without non class powers and our defense is Cloak, a Miss Chance and fear. Not only can anyone use a miss chance it's not a guaranteed defense as an attack may hit or miss. Fear is great but like all CCs you can get stuck in one.

Unless Nightblades get much better class heals or class defensive powers stacking all the damage and fully buff to kill as fast as possible is the only build that makes sense. Regeneration is nice but when your enemies have good heals and shields you double down and would your do best.

pjwb16_ESO

Your arguments are all invalid, nerf NB buff sorc

revonine

Xeniph wrote: »

It's all a moot point:


Hi everyone, thanks for all your feedback. We are looking at several options to limit the number of times Shadow Cloak can be cast in a row. However, unlike Bolt Escape, there are multiple ways of countering Shadow Cloak so we want to be very careful with any change we ultimately make. One of the possibilities we're exploring is reducing your Magicka regeneration while Shadow Cloak is active.

Any change we make will be in a future update, though we don't have a solid time frame at this time.

ZOS_GinaBruno
admin

Source: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2274406#Comment_2274406

People have always and will always complain about stealth mechanics in MMO's. However I have no idea why the discussion continues after this statement was made.

The discussion is continuing for more feedback.

Poxheart wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Zergs aren't just limited to in-game play. It also takes place on the forums. Recently Zergs have been strategically spamming cloak nerf threads.

My question is:

Is Zos looking for objectivity and reasoning to achieve balance?

Or

Is Zos catering to whatever the current Zerg wants?




If the former is true, then cloak should obviously not be reduced/nerfed.

Here's why

Point #1. I see many uninformed posts attempting to frame cloak for Nightblades to be what bolt escape is to sorcs. When bolt escape isn't in use, sorcs fall back on shields for defense. Nightblades have had their bolt escape nerfed (dodge roll) and their defense is cloak. Can sorcs spam shields when needed? Yes. Can Templars spam heals when needed? Yes. Then why are people attacking Nightblades for spaming their only class defense?

Class Shields, heals, etc. don't have cool downs, magick regen reductions, duration reduction, etc.. Nor should cloak.

Point #2 There's a gripe that night blades can stealth pass mobs... Are Templars able to heal mob damage? Yes. Are sorcs shields able to mitigate mob damage? Yes. Then why is it a huge issue that night blades intended class function also functions vs PVE mobs?

PVE mobs are an imperial city issue. It has NOTHING to do with nightblade balance vs other classes and should not cause changes to classes.


Point #3 For fear of tl:dr I'll stop at counters. There's a frequent uninformed statement that there is no "real" counter to cloak.... This of course is false. (it's more commonly a lie to incite nerfs.) Of all the class abilities cloak actually has the most counters. It's unique in that it's the only class ability that can be negated 100% by most of its counters. It's also the only class ability negated by a potion.

Here are a few counters

Caltrops - any nightblade standing in range has no access to cloak. 100% negation.
Magelight - any nightblade in range has their cloak 100% negated and as well it prevents all stuns from stealth in addition to reducing stealth damage taken...
Detect potion - only class negating potion in existence exclusively to cloak. When consumed, cloak is 100% negated.
Revealing flare
Magic det
Curse
Any Aoe
Etc, etc, etc..



But of course if the later is true and Zergs rule with no need for reason carry on. The only counter to Zergs is another Zerg.

And here we see bad Night Blade #129034023 checking in to defend cloak.

Oh and there's bad DK for using reflective scales. And a bad sorc for using Hardened Ward. Oh and bad templar for using BoL.
Would you suggest us bad nightblades all drop cloak from our bars and just face tank everything?

a.skelton92

Master_Kas wrote: »

Good luck arguing All those counters you listed are not good enough. Moar nerfs !

They are more valid than the drivel that most come out with. These are ACTUALLY points, where most nerf threads do not actually have one.. Whinging just because your group could not find him or cloaking at 2% health are not reasons for nerf but doing what the skill was designed for.

Nobodys reasons are valid. The ability to vanish from a bad situation and control which situations you choose to fight in has and always will be the axiom of what it is to be a 'rogue' in this game and any other.. The skill is working as intended..

And no, this does not come from a nightblade.

PrinceRyzen

a.skelton92 wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Good luck arguing All those counters you listed are not good enough. Moar nerfs !

They are more valid than the drivel that most come out with. These are ACTUALLY points, where most nerf threads do not actually have one.. Whinging just because your group could not find him or cloaking at 2% health are not reasons for nerf but doing what the skill was designed for.

Nobodys reasons are valid. The ability to vanish from a bad situation and control which situations you choose to fight in has and always will be the axiom of what it is to be a 'rogue' in this game and any other.. The skill is working as intended..

And no, this does not come from a nightblade.

Agreed.
I honestly haven't seen much in the way of balance coming from those wanting to alter cloak.

Valid points are rare if they exist at all.


Funny thing is most of this came about with the release of imperial city. Not much has changed with cloak. What has changed is an abundance of PVE mobs in PVP. No fault of nightblades what damage npcs are doing in PVP fights.

Cathexis

As I have said in other posts:

Cloak currently gives nightblades the capacity to control when fights begin AND end, at any time, regardless of counters.
Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).
Currently no other class besides the nightblade now has this capacity
The rationalization to make changes to cloak is simple: the capacity to control fights in this manner was deemed, by popular opinion, to be imbalanced.

The problem with cloak spam is not that every player is op, it is that in some instances it can be used to effectively evade entire groups of players for indefinite periods of time. Its like playing the cyrodiil edition of where's waldo.

JDar

Xeven wrote: »

I rolled a MageBlade just because Cloak is so OP. I mean it is stupid ridiculous OP. I can perma cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other, all while traveling at the speed of light with my magicka bar at 100%. I can troll groups for days even if they have AOE, Magelight, Flare, Pots etc, simply because I am so ****ing fast while cloaked. You might see me for a second, but once I hit that double take combined with cloak speed bonus from CW, I am the fastest class in the game AND I'm ****ing invisible. Lol. I dont even use a horse. Seriously.

Anyone defending cloak needs to have their head checked. Cloak is ****ing absurd.

Well you can run around in cloak not doing any damage all day, but when you try to melee vs. a stamina build and get caltropsed and wrecking blow'd because they broke your only real defense and you're lucky to have 10000 physical resistance, let me know if you think that's OP.

Think melee is a bad idea? Try and be a ranged nightblade caster and do the worst dps in the world.

JDar

Cathexis wrote: »

As I have said in other posts:

Cloak currently gives nightblades the capacity to control when fights begin AND end, at any time, regardless of counters.
Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).
Currently no other class besides the nightblade now has this capacity
The rationalization to make changes to cloak is simple: the capacity to control fights in this manner was deemed, by popular opinion, to be imbalanced.

The problem with cloak spam is not that every player is op, it is that in some instances it can be used to effectively evade entire groups of players for indefinite periods of time. Its like playing the cyrodiil edition of where's waldo.

You don't have to play Where's Waldo. If I'm running away in cloak, I'm not killing you, so what's the gripe?

Being able to control when fights being and end would be really powerful if magicka nightblades hit as hard as stamina does or had any real defense against getting hit besides dodge chance.

Finally, as has been said many times, cloak doesn't always end a fight. Good players players will know where the nightblade is going even if they are invisible, and they will cast AoEs while moving in that direction. Steel Tornado with it's huge range is particularly effective. @Frozn did this to me today and I couldn't get away fast enough. Then he finished me off easily because I wear 7 light armor. I have a ton of stories of smart players easily eating me for lunch, and to be honest I am one of the more experienced magicka nightblades out there.

JDar

I'm not sure if I just got trolled or not by entering yet another nightblade cloak discussion. I really gotta stop doing this.

Yakidafi

Xeven wrote: »

I rolled a MageBlade just because Cloak is so OP. I mean it is stupid ridiculous OP. I can perma cloak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other, all while traveling at the speed of light with my magicka bar at 100%. I can troll groups for days even if they have AOE, Magelight, Flare, Pots etc, simply because I am so ****ing fast while cloaked. You might see me for a second, but once I hit that double take combined with cloak speed bonus from CW, I am the fastest class in the game AND I'm ****ing invisible. Lol. I dont even use a horse. Seriously.

Anyone defending cloak needs to have their head checked. Cloak is ****ing absurd.

revealing flare morphed to lingering flare tags you so even if you are not in its aoe you are still visible, so obviously you have not been in a fight where it has been used. That "speed of light" I can use too if the ones I fight don't have gap closers or any snare at all, yes then it is easy for any class to fight. potion + gap closer good luck beating +2 easy, you could use the shade to teleport in previous example, but it is another skill. I do not know the groups you find, but truly they can not be that experienced.

JDar

Maybe if you guys shared with me some real life stories of perma-cloak nightblades who are pwning you because of cloak. I feel like this is a lot of rage against an abstract concept that doesn't quite manifest in actual game play the way it is being described here.

revonine

I'm gonna start demanding evidence of these claims other than "this is my opinion" type nerf threads because these godly Nightblades I've been hearing about are only ever seen in carefully selected 1vX videos of popular streamers playing against really poor players.

PrinceRyzen

Cathexis wrote: »

As I have said in other posts:

Cloak currently gives nightblades the capacity to control when fights begin AND end, at any time, regardless of counters.
Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).
Currently no other class besides the nightblade now has this capacity
The rationalization to make changes to cloak is simple: the capacity to control fights in this manner was deemed, by popular opinion, to be imbalanced.

The problem with cloak spam is not that every player is op, it is that in some instances it can be used to effectively evade entire groups of players for indefinite periods of time. Its like playing the cyrodiil edition of where's waldo.

This is the thing that makes these discussion challenging.

Your building a case on false information.

1. Cloak gives nightblade a the ability to dictate when fights begin and end at anytime, regardless of counters.

Response: the is just false. Hit cloak in front of someone using magelight, detect potions, piercing mark, aoes, etc. nightblade cloaks will fail every time. As it's been stated the nightblade has to dodge-escape counters prior to cloak being of use. Standing in caltrops spamming cloak dictates nothing.

2. Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).

Response: False. If encased, in talons or in aoe range activating cloak will NOT get you out of said attacks. Bolt escape will. What accomplished that for nightblade is dodge roll and that got the same treatment as bolt. When a sorcerer is not escaping and mid battle needs to mitigate damage they use shields. For nightblades their mitigation comes from cloak.

Lastly, no counters of bolt prevented it from being used. Counters of cloak render it unusable. To imply that their counters are equal is to spread more misinformation.

TL:DR Your rational for what is imbalanced is based on false info. Bolt escape and dodge roll were nerfed the same for having the same usage. Heals, shields, etc are for other classes what cloak is for nightblades. If their defense abilities are free to use without penalty so should nightblades.

Leandor

You can't argue with the nerf crowd. Your only chance is to divert their attention to something different. The usual go-to would be sorcs, but it's a little bit of a dead horse and no one will jump on the dk train, since there are none left in Cyrodiil.

I'd suggest going for Bombard, since the dodge nerf it is an indefinite root that does not grant immunity and can't be purged. That one is quite new and not yet abused, so making a couple select posts may get that crowd to change target.

Cathexis

JDar wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

As I have said in other posts:

Cloak currently gives nightblades the capacity to control when fights begin AND end, at any time, regardless of counters.
Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).
Currently no other class besides the nightblade now has this capacity
The rationalization to make changes to cloak is simple: the capacity to control fights in this manner was deemed, by popular opinion, to be imbalanced.

The problem with cloak spam is not that every player is op, it is that in some instances it can be used to effectively evade entire groups of players for indefinite periods of time. Its like playing the cyrodiil edition of where's waldo.

You don't have to play Where's Waldo. If I'm running away in cloak, I'm not killing you, so what's the gripe?

Being able to control when fights being and end would be really powerful if magicka nightblades hit as hard as stamina does or had any real defense against getting hit besides dodge chance.

Finally, as has been said many times, cloak doesn't always end a fight. Good players players will know where the nightblade is going even if they are invisible, and they will cast AoEs while moving in that direction. Steel Tornado with it's huge range is particularly effective. @Frozn did this to me today and I couldn't get away fast enough. Then he finished me off easily because I wear 7 light armor. I have a ton of stories of smart players easily eating me for lunch, and to be honest I am one of the more experienced magicka nightblades out there.

Except they do kill players. Its the same situation as teleporting sorcs, the second you turn your back on them, they hit you full force. Which means you essentially have to hunt them indefinitely. Which is a serious issue if you can cloak indefinitely. Which was the exact same problem with bolt escape.

Cathexis

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

As I have said in other posts:

Cloak currently gives nightblades the capacity to control when fights begin AND end, at any time, regardless of counters.
Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).
Currently no other class besides the nightblade now has this capacity
The rationalization to make changes to cloak is simple: the capacity to control fights in this manner was deemed, by popular opinion, to be imbalanced.

The problem with cloak spam is not that every player is op, it is that in some instances it can be used to effectively evade entire groups of players for indefinite periods of time. Its like playing the cyrodiil edition of where's waldo.

This is the thing that makes these discussion challenging.

Your building a case on false information.

1. Cloak gives nightblade a the ability to dictate when fights begin and end at anytime, regardless of counters.

Response: the is just false. Hit cloak in front of someone using magelight, detect potions, piercing mark, aoes, etc. nightblade cloaks will fail every time. As it's been stated the nightblade has to dodge-escape counters prior to cloak being of use. Standing in caltrops spamming cloak dictates nothing.

2. Changes were made to adjust bolt escape and morphs because it offered the same fundamental strategic benefit (yes it had lots of counters too, you just didn't use them or failed to use them effectively).

Response: False. If encased, in talons or in aoe range activating cloak will NOT get you out of said attacks. Bolt escape will. What accomplished that for nightblade is dodge roll and that got the same treatment as bolt. When a sorcerer is not escaping and mid battle needs to mitigate damage they use shields. For nightblades their mitigation comes from cloak.

Lastly, no counters of bolt prevented it from being used. Counters of cloak render it unusable. To imply that their counters are equal is to spread more misinformation.

TL:DR Your rational for what is imbalanced is based on false info. Bolt escape and dodge roll were nerfed the same for having the same usage. Heals, shields, etc are for other classes what cloak is for nightblades. If their defense abilities are free to use without penalty so should nightblades.

1. Response

You have the capacity to purge or use cc breaking abilities like any other class. Obviously you don't stand in caltrops, you reposition. Also you are listing counters which, as I stated, the argument is irrespective of. You think bolt didn't have counters? Basically any gap closer, other sorcs with bolt, snipe (probably equivalent to potions, I used to kill sorcs at 45 meters with 30k snipes all the time). The issue isn't that there are sufficient counters. The issue is that without counters, and even with counters in some instances I have experienced, nightblades can completely evade damage indefinitely.

2. Response

I have fought lots of good nightblades who do not dependent solely on cloak for survival. The fact that you lack the capacity to play without cloak isn't grounds to suggest that cloak should be left as it is. in fact, logically if you can depend entirely upon one ability for defense it arguably should be nerfed. Not all sorcs spam sheilds for defense, stamina sorcs do not typically use shields at all (speaking from experience). Sorc shields were also nerfed you might recall for the same reasons.. Sorcs were able to depend entirely on a single skill for defense. As far as bolt acting entirely as a purge, that isn't exactly true either. Bolt can be cast through cc, but you still remain ccd.

Maybe you should also consider that NBS also have lots of other damage mitigating abilities like fear, arguably the most powerful aoe cc in the game. You also can't say that nightblades lack the capacity to heal, nightblades have access to all the same classless healing abilities everyone else does and they have some of the best syphoning skills in the game as well.

The illusion of cloak dependence just isn't true.