New players as cannon fodder for veterans

BalticBlues

What already was bad got worse with patch 2.1.4

Even though new players in PVP were already helpless against V14 players with their unreachable gear and CPs, with Patch 2.1.4 the enchantments of new players even have been nerved and V14 gear has been buffed:

ZOS Patch 2.1.4 wrote:

• Decreased Health, Magicka, and Stamina enchantments at lower levels. At VR14, these items now provide about 4% more.
• Decreased resistances to specific elements, such as fire damage, at lower levels. At higher levels, they were increased by up to 25% at VR14.
• Decreased the proc damage (such as Fiery Weapon) at low levels, and increased by up to 7% at VR14.
• Decreased the cost reduction at lower levels, though values remain largely unchanged for VR14 player characters.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2200164/#Comment_2200164

Why ZOS wants new players to suffer even more in PVP?

Sharee

Most of it doesn't matter anyway, since battle leveling now affects veteran rank characters.

zornyan

And no one has unreachable CP, every single person in the game can reach max CP if they want to. And after 300 you barely get any bonus.

leepalmer95

BalticBlues wrote: »

What already was bad got worse with patch 2.1.4

Even though new players in PVP were already helpless against V14 players with their [i]unreachable gear and CPs[/i], with Patch 2.1.4 the enchantments of new players even have been nerved and V14 gear has been buffed:

ZOS Patch 2.1.4 wrote:

• Decreased Health, Magicka, and Stamina enchantments at lower levels. At VR14, these items now provide about 4% more.
• Decreased resistances to specific elements, such as fire damage, at lower levels. At higher levels, they were increased by up to 25% at VR14.
• Decreased the proc damage (such as Fiery Weapon) at low levels, and increased by up to 7% at VR14.
• Decreased the cost reduction at lower levels, though values remain largely unchanged for VR14 player characters.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2200164/#Comment_2200164

Why ZOS wants new players to suffer even more in PVP?

Believe it or not people just didn't start with v14 characters and gear, it's not unreachable at all just requires a little work which most people can't be bothered to do so want zos to hand it on a plate for them.

What exactly is a new players anyone below vet 1 should be in non vet campaign and when you reach vet 1 your not exactly a new player anymore.

Sharee wrote: »

Most of it doesn't matter anyway, since battle leveling now affects veteran rank characters.

Also this ^^ so people can stop wining already... does battle level effect up to vet 14 now? is zos literally holding the hand of lazy players now?

BalticBlues

zornyan wrote: »

no one has unreachable CP.

I play on PS4, and the PC players who were allowed to bring in HUNDREDS of CP ARE unreachable.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

stop wining

This answer shows that you obviously do not understand the matter. As soon as PS4 players reach V1 and have to play vet campaings, they are slaugthered by former PC players who play in god mode. With the new changes, the former PC god players now even receive a buff while new PS4 players even receive a nerf. This environment is getting toxic. A game becoming HOSTILE to new players in PVP will die out on the run.

btw: I am one of the former PC players, and I see how new PS4 players are treated badly.

zornyan

So totally totally wrong, not every pc player had hundreds of CP, and only some of them transfered to ps4/xbox, and only some of them pvp..

I barely meet any pc transfers, the few I've seen ive beaten in 1v1 a few times. I've lost a few times too.if someone that has a 20% bonuses to armor/damage is really beating you that hard, that's a l2p issue, as 20% doesn't make a bad player good.


Also tell me how it's unreachable, are you banned from farming CP? Zos themselves stated a hardcore gamers should be able to cap out at 3600 CP in 60 days playtime. Yet the most any pc player has ever reached was 1650.

You can easily go play in cadwells/delve etc to earn CP, they actually buffed cadwells xp by 50% for quests, would by the end of gold zone you could easily hit 100cp with enlightenment.

Or is it that you don't want to put the work in? Maybe they should make yellow gear have the same stats as white? Cause obviously it's unfair for anyone to have any sort of advantage because they've put in the hard work...

zornyan

Also being vr1 and getting slaughtered isn't because of CP, once you hit vr1 you don't get battle leveled


I.e at level 1-50 in a vet campaign you'll have 31k hp, 15k stam and magika (without passives) soon as you hit vr1? You go down to your 13-15k hp and stats. So immediately most players have nearly half the health at vr1.

Battle leveling will come to vr ranks once imperial city drops.

ItsRejectz

Why shouldn't people who have played the game for over a year be stronger than people who are new to the game?

leepalmer95

BalticBlues wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

no one has unreachable CP.

I play on PS4, and the PC players who were allowed to bring in HUNDREDS of CP ARE unreachable.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

stop wining

This answer shows that you obviously do not understand the matter. As soon as PS4 players reach V1 and have to play vet campaings, they are slaugthered by former PC players who play in god mode. With the new changes, the former PC god players now even receive a buff while new PS4 players even receive a nerf. This environment is getting toxic. A game becoming HOSTILE to new players in PVP will die out on the run.

btw: I am one of the former PC players, and I see how new PS4 players are treated badly.

I understand it entirely, people wanting everything to be handed to them. I'm a console player and low vets being killed in pvp has nothing to do with pc xfers it's just that after being battle leveled they now have to actually work on their gear, skills and build and not just spam skills as fast as they can. They have to realise they no longer have 30k hp in a server were everyone hits like a wet noodle and if they don't dodge or block that skill or if they go too far forward there and consequences and they die, not take a bit of dmg and run away to heal.

zornyan

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Why shouldn't people who have played the game for over a year be stronger than people who are new to the game?

Because kids these days haven't played proper MMO games.

They play cod and Battlefield where the first gun is probably one of the best, they play MMO (kinda) games like destiny, that instantly make you level 25 upon logging in, and give zero bonuses to working hard for gear.

Basically kids these days would expect to log in, hit level 10, go into pvp and steamroll a level 49 because "it's supposed to be fair"

They want to come into the game, do the basic quests and have all the best gear possible handed to them through easy missions.

Hell most kids I've met on console haven't ever bothered researching traits on gear! I'm at nearly 8 for all my sets of gear, working on the 9th.

Yes it's time consuming, yes it's a pain trying to find a pair of heavy greaves with mundus trait when nobody has any for sale etc.

But it's the only way to make a successful and strong build..

Corpsage

Isn't that kinda the way of the PvP world though? Start out a no gear scrub then move your way up the ranks. I have just over 110 CP and am still able to wreck people I'm sure have more than I do.

BalticBlues

Does it serve your minro

zornyan wrote: »

Basically kids these days would expect to log in, hit level 10, go into pvp and steamroll a level 49 because "it's supposed to be fair" [...]most kids I've met on console haven't ever bothered researching traits on gear

Why do you refer to other people as "kids"?
Did you not learn using proper language in school?

Did you even read the topic of this thread? The topic is about making the weakest even weaker and making the strongest even stronger. Do V14 people really need this? If so, why?

V14 players needing even stronger gear to slaughter "kids" are probably not such good player as they probably think. Sorry, but I really have no explanation for this patching. So please elaborate, why you need to bolster yourself more against the weakest players.

zornyan

It simply encourages people to work harder and reach higher ranks?

So let's get this straight.

In bwb and non vet it makes no difference.

In vet, anyone sub vr10 would be useless anyway, especially vr1-10 due to no battle leveling.

Now that you get battle leveled up to vr14, everyone has a much better chance, all they've done is made it that to have The best gear, with the best stats. You need to rank up 2 levels.

For those far under vr14 you now how a much better survival chance thanks to battle leveling.

Kids, I.e anyone with this stupid spoon fed mentality. I'm 27, have played pc gaming and mmo's since I was about 8 years old. I've played hundreds of hours in hundreds of different games.

Games are now ridiculously easy, hell look at skyrim vs morrowind

Morrowind you get a quest, go find the location, you want to get to the other side of the map? Better get running.

Skyrim, here's a nice big location marker telling you exactly where to go, more than a 5 minute walk? Better just click a button and fast travel there..

Sharee

BalticBlues wrote: »

Did you even read the topic of this thread? The topic is about making the weakest even weaker and making the strongest even stronger. Do V14 people really need this? If so, why?

They are only weaker in PvE. Anyone who is less than v14 is boosted to v14 in pvp areas.

Cathexis

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Why shouldn't people who have played the game for over a year be stronger than people who are new to the game?

Because it creates an environment where no one new wants to play.

Cathexis

zornyan wrote: »

Skyrim, here's a nice big location marker telling you exactly where to go, more than a 5 minute walk? Better just click a button and fast travel there..

Mechanics like these aren't implemented because its supposed to make things cushy and easy. They are implemented to remove tedium and pointlessness from the game so that players can focus their time on content that is meaningful.

I mean seriously I can't understand why people advocate for more *** in videogames.

"Yes, lets make sure every player has to jerk off a thousand times before they can get to the fun dungeon content" said no videogame developer ever.

It's people like you that force the rest of us to grind bullshjt VR ranks.

Kemenril

I play a LOT of MMO PvP.

Based on what I've seen so far with TESO (which I will admit is very little so far), the balance of veteran vs. new(er)/junior players, the balance is pretty far off.

Mind you, I've got a "PvP mindset" (too many years playing EVE will break a man), so imbalance doesn't bother me -- I'm willing to grind to get to a competitive point. But it's kind of silly to pretend this is working by design. If this *is* by design, then that design is a little bit broken, and it's going to turn off a lot of casuals. I don't get the sense that that is what Zen. is aiming for, but it's certainly how it's working.

Sharee

Kemenril wrote: »

I play a LOT of MMO PvP.

Based on what I've seen so far with TESO (which I will admit is very little so far), the balance of veteran vs. new(er)/junior players, the balance is pretty far off.

Mind you, I've got a "PvP mindset" (too many years playing EVE will break a man), so imbalance doesn't bother me -- I'm willing to grind to get to a competitive point. But it's kind of silly to pretend this is working by design. If this *is* by design, then that design is a little bit broken, and it's going to turn off a lot of casuals. I don't get the sense that that is what Zen. is aiming for, but it's certainly how it's working.

People tend to blame their losses on level difference when the real culprit is something else. Here is a video of my v7 medium DK taking out a v14 player:

https://youtu.be/7MrAm3YDezE

I have taken out a v14 before with my heavy armor orc DK when he was just level 28.

zornyan

Cathexis wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Skyrim, here's a nice big location marker telling you exactly where to go, more than a 5 minute walk? Better just click a button and fast travel there..

Mechanics like these aren't implemented because its supposed to make things cushy and easy. They are implemented to remove tedium and pointlessness from the game so that players can focus their time on content that is meaningful.

I mean seriously I can't understand why people advocate for more *** in videogames.

"Yes, lets make sure every player has to jerk off a thousand times before they can get to the fun dungeon content" said no videogame developer ever.

It's people like you that force the rest of us to grind bullshjt VR ranks.

No..just no, your post proves my point, people don't want to do anything but get point a to point b as fast as possible, so they can finish the content as fast as possible, so they can then come and *** on the forums about a lack of content.

Seriously people can do 1-vr14 in 3 days! Hell it'll be quicker now with xp reduced per rank. Is 3 days too much work to get to max level?

If everyone that joins the game is as powerful as a veteran player, you'll get the same issue destiny has, millions will leave the game ridiculously quick.

Started off with 20 million, come Xmas dlc they made it easier for noobs to reach max rank, guess what happened? By Jan nearly 18 million left because they were pissed off any new player could go buy gear and be max level unlike the vets that had to grind for weeks and months to get to level 30

zornyan

Btw grinding is part of an MMO, ever played guild wars? Or everquest (shivers) or anarchy online? Or Wow? Seriously every MMO has huge huge elements of grinding, hell you can reach VR16 now with ZERO grinding. Just questing.

Most mmo's have a much much higher level cap, literially in games like ever quest/anarchy online you'd be looking at a week for level 150-151 out of 200+

First time they relearn level 220 in anarchy online it took the best player in the game 6 MONTHS of grinding to get those 20 levels...

SirAndy

ItsRejectz wrote: »

Why shouldn't people who have played the game for over a year be stronger than people who are new to the game?

Because PvP should be about YOUR SKILL as a player, not about how much time you invested in getting CP points ...

If you need a whole years worth of gear and CP points to "be stronger" than a player who is new to the game, what does that say about your actual skill?

zornyan

And then veteran players leave, because why should noobs have the same stats and gear?

Hell make traits useless, remove CPs, downlevel everyone to 50, remove the ability to gather gear and just give everyone a single set of blue armor.

Hell even better make any new character automatically VR16, with 3600cp and full gold gear, make sure they can choose a build to be created for them. Hell give them all the achievements and dyes too!

You only do one thing by making new players as powerful as veterans that have worked hard, you *** off the players that play consistently for a long period, players that sub, put up with any issues the game has because they like it. Eventually those veterans leave, only leaving the cry babies, which are generally casuals, that don't sub and don't buy dlc's and eventually get bored and leave within 6 months.

That's how to kill a franchise/game pretty quick. If this game is to last year's like zos had planned, they NEED the veteran players.

SirAndy

zornyan wrote: »

And then veteran players leave, because why should noobs have the same stats and gear?

They neither have the same stats nor the same gear nor the same skills available.
Battle level only gets you to VR14ish (green?) stats, and you still only have gear and skills at your actual character level.

That's hardly "the same".

Again, if you need a whole years worth of gear and CP points to "be stronger" than a player who is new to the game, what does that say about your actual skill?

Kemenril

zornyan wrote: »

And then veteran players leave, because why should noobs have the same stats and gear?

Hell make traits useless, remove CPs, downlevel everyone to 50, remove the ability to gather gear and just give everyone a single set of blue armor.

Hell even better make any new character automatically VR16, with 3600cp and full gold gear, make sure they can choose a build to be created for them. Hell give them all the achievements and dyes too!

...

That's how to kill a franchise/game pretty quick. If this game is to last year's like zos had planned, they NEED the veteran players.

Actually, GW2 Arena PvP does this and it's still awesome and highly populated.

Not suggesting this should happen here, but only to say that your hyperbole about it "killing" the franchise is misplaced. If it's fun, and well-implemented, and the rewards are good, then people will play it.

zornyan

SirAndy wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

And then veteran players leave, because why should noobs have the same stats and gear?

They neither have the same stats nor the same gear nor the same skills available.
Battle level only gets you to VR14ish (green?) stats, and you still only have gear and skills at your actual character level.

That's hardly "the same".

Again, if you need a whole years worth of gear and CP points to "be stronger" than a player who is new to the game, what does that say about your actual skill?

I don't NEED it I WANT it, I'm a console player, but I've spent many years on pc mmo's, every one of them made sure that dedicated players would benefit, and new players would have something to aspire to.

ESO is generally l2p as most of it is extremely balanced. A clever player can wreck in pvp for days. Hell I've got a grand total of 30 CP, I've beaten players with several hundred.

Let me remind you, a person can do 0-vr16 in 3 DAYS, zos themselves said a hardcore player can do 3600cp in 60 DAYS, but after 300cp you get tiny returns, so essentially 300cp is the "hard cap"

The average person can do 0-50 in a single day of grinding (so 15 odd hours gameplay) and can do vr1-16 in about 5 days of gameplay. With enlightenment and xp scrolls/potions you can get about 80-90 CP per VR16.

So an average skilled person can earn the 300 CP hard cap in approximately 18-20 days of gameplay.

That's pretty bloody quick for any MMO. Hardly "unreachable"

SirAndy

zornyan wrote: »

Let me remind you, a person can do 0-vr16 in 3 DAYS
The average person can do 0-50 in a single day of grinding (so 15 odd hours gameplay) and can do vr1-16 in about 5 days of gameplay

AshTal

The difference between a new VET 14 and one who has been around for a while is amazing. While I agree that people should be able to work towards getting more powerful the difference is just amazing and its very very hard for new players to ever catch up.

coryrenick_ESO

AshTal wrote: »

The difference between a new VET 14 and one who has been around for a while is amazing. While I agree that people should be able to work towards getting more powerful the difference is just amazing and its very very hard for new players to ever catch up.

As a mostly PvEer since launch, I tried to learn PvP in anticipation of Imperial City, and I have to agree. Even fully understanding the PvE side, you will die, instantly, over and over again, without any indication of what you've done wrong.

BalticBlues

zornyan wrote: »

The average person can do 0-50 in a single day of grinding (so 15 odd hours gameplay) and can do vr1-16 in about 5 days of gameplay. With enlightenment and xp scrolls/potions you can get about 80-90 CP per VR16. So an average skilled person can earn the 300 CP hard cap in approximately 18-20 days of gameplay.

Usually, only V14s use the boring way of grinding for leveling more chars up. New players instead want to enjoy the game. Do you know such a concept? By playing about 2-3 hours per day -which is about the free time of Avery Joe per evening-, people will need months to earn 300 CP, if they will ever reach that point. Unfortunately, many players are quitting before because of the absurd imbalances in PVP.

zornyan wrote: »

Kids, I.e anyone with this stupid spoon fed mentality. I'm 27, have played pc gaming and mmo's since I was about 8 years old. I've played hundreds of hours in hundreds of different games.

Again: Please stop calling other people "kid" and "stupid". Let me guess: Is your family calling you like that? Healthy people have a family, a job, a social life. What do you have? You have been harming your social life since you were 8 years[!] old with hundreds of hours in hundreds of different games? You really think this is good? Yes, ESO is a great game, but it is no replacement for real life. As an old fart I am allowed to tell you: Start living a real life before the best years in your life are over...

zornyan wrote: »

ESO is generally [...] extremely balanced.

I love ESO, but sorry, ESO is the most unbalanced game in my entire library. And, with the new patch, the imbalances are getting even bigger instead of smaller? I know players who LOVED playing (balanced) PVP in non vet PVP - and then stopped playing vet PVP because of the imbalances. This already is doing damage to the ESO community. So there really is no reason to even nerf V1 gear and buff V14 gear now.

zornyan

Okay so 3 hours a day for average Joe, so anyone that can actually play the game with half a brain can do each zone in 3hours or under, so within 6 days they'll be 50, then at the same rate (thanks to the xp buffs and lowered xp for vet ranks) it'll be 2 vet ranks per zone, at that rate they'll be VR16 in an additional 7-8 days.

So 14 days playing for the average person, that means they'll have what? 80-90 CP?

So in just 2 months of playing the game, an average playing could have 4 VR16 's with nearly all traits researched, a good supply of mats/gold, and roughly 300-400cp.

So you're saying 2 months is too long to essentially reach max.level in an MMO?

Btw before you bring my personal life into this ill have you know, my family doesnt really say much to me, since my dad (rip) died when I was 13 I have been the sole carer for.my mother up until the age of 17 when I left home.

My mother has multiple sclerosis since I was born and is essentially paralysed, I had to stop going to school at 10 due to me coming home to finding my mother on the floor unable to.move due to heavy relapses.

I only.managed to go to school again for the last year to.complete my gcse's (which I did well at) before going to college whilst working full time to support myself.

I currently work 100hours a week as a full time carer for an agency, whilst I also have 3 pets (that require constant attention) a girlfriend that's likes us to go out and socialise most evenings, and I'm a big car enthusiast that spends alot of time working on my own and friends cars, whilst attending shows and events regularly.

I have a pretty *** good life, I work hard, I play hard, I simply don't waste time like.most Folk, I'm up at 6 am everyday and don't go to sleep till 12pm, plenty of time to sleep when you're dead n all.

I still around all this have 1 vr 5 I've barely had to bother to get there, with 6 level 30-50 alts Ive made for bwb....

coryrenick_ESO

zornyan wrote: »

I currently work 100hours a week as a full time carer for an agency, whilst I also have 3 pets (that require constant attention) a girlfriend that's likes us to go out and socialise most evenings, and I'm a big car enthusiast that spends alot of time working on my own and friends cars, whilst attending shows and events regularly.

This is doubtful. Care to try again with less exaggeration?

I play a few hours each day, here or there. I could get maybe 9-10 CP a week, but I'll admit I wasn't going all out in the effort. But that's kind of what's being talked about. You shouldn't have to go all the way and then some just to enjoy some PvP without getting stomped into the ground, over and over, only to be called a zerg when you dare team up with others for protection.