Why DC should do what AD wouldn't...

Zheg · July 2015

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Daniel, I know a particular group of yellows has been doing this every night around primetime NA PC on azura's, but when they stack multiple raids at ash mine, it doesn't make it any better when DC does the same to counter them. I know in this meta it's the only way to stop them, but when you roll in with all of those DC it makes the server take a poop. Ultimately this is all on ZOS, and they should be ashamed of their utter failure to fix this, but I know I cringe when I see the wedding dress and 40+ DC trying to beat the yellow blob on top of that mine flag. Nothing against you or CN, but DC shares part of the blame in the cluster that is Azura's primetime lag. I know your OP is calling for the same thing I'm hinting at, but we really can't afford to keep caving and fighting fire with fire in this case, because the whole server burns. You're in charge of the most numerous DC guild on Azura's right now, so a lot of this responsibility will be on you to follow through with.

Zheg. I'mma start referring to you as the closer.
I hope this is to your liking.

I approve.

WRX · July 2015

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

My blob guild has been in Had all week. We will be were there are fights/tolerable latency.

Excellent, I just hope that means if 9000 other AD show up, in the future, you choose not to continue dog-pilling the apposing faction. You guys have no idea how many DC quit this game after what you Banana did the previous cycle in Azura (that yes, you won!).

As victors, I'd prefer not to rub it in, and us DC actually do the right thing, regardless of the fact the banana did not.

Didn't read this thread at all, but we have not homed Azura since Deci and other's originally banished you guys from the server months ago.

We discussed going back for round 2 after this most recent reset, who knows, not to late.

Kupoking · July 2015

You must be mistaken daniel. I remember losing to you guys once in the past 2 weeks while you guys used your stack and dont move tactics. Then we pretty much wom every engagement or lost with a ratio of at least 3 kills to one death.

Couldve recorded those encounters. But I close my OBS when lag kicks in.

Draxys · July 2015

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

!

Minno wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

"AD please stop running with more then group"

-meanwhile NPK is running with 50+

Who are probably all new players looking for a group while the other guilds lock their ranks up.

Hate or love it, but either meta up, join a zerg, or we attempt to self organize so lag is reduced.

Only a handful of those 50+ you claim... Are V14 too.
Of course a full or almost full group of V14 will beat a handful of V14 and a bunch of people under V14 who most likely get 1 shotted easily.
Beat your chest all you want, you killed 30+ newbs, and thankfully there was a guild that let those newbs experience good pvp, rather than get dismotivated and leave pvp because no one would play with them.

Now when you, 12 - 24 chest pounding V14s LOSE to a handful of V14 and a bucket full of newbs... Jokes on you... Pretty funny when the best of the best EP and AD LOSE to a bucket full of newbs, with a handful of pros to lead the way.
I mean... You pretty much 1 shot 30+ people with an AOE.. Now its uneven fight... Yet they get you before you get them.
..
...

Now I was playing with this other guild on Haderus yesterday...
Lemme tell ya, it was fun yesterday.
16-24 people in group pretty much all V14 except 2-4 of us.
SPANKED AD
SPANKED EP

Only person of notice I saw on AD, and it was tea pot, and EP didn't recognize anyone, heard talk about Zavezer or something like that.
Was, outnumbered every fight by 20+.
Won like over 10 REAL fights... Lost 1 fight because they siege baited us at a milegate and had 8 flame siege ready and... went through the gate... Game over right when we saw 8 flame siege pointed at our direction.
But in the first hour and half, was nothing but good AD wooping, those AD guys quit playing. So next hour and half of good EP wooping, EP quit playing. Both those AD and EP got farmed HARD.. None wanted to play after the wooping.
Those AD pretty much quit quit, they had numbers to defend and such. FREELY took down a scroll keep, FREELY ran it, those AD knew who was there and they knew better than to get farmed. We took our time taking down that keep too, we just wanted to farm, didn't give a hoot about the scroll... But them AD they was scared sooo bad they didn't even think about trying to defend and get it back. Their 3 bar was pretty much was like, GG, you can have everything, stop messing with us and go fight EP.
100k+ AP in 3-4 hours.
Serious

They seriously went HAM on them AD and EP.
Some serious high end group, never went HAM on AD and EP like they did.
Wouldn't be surprised if they the same people in that video posted on this thread too, I see those guys going HAM.
Just a bunch of enemies around them and no friendlies in sight... Only people dropping is a bunch of EP or AD

..
As for thread, I agree people should spread out. Kinda surprised to goto a different server than Azura and see DC losing.. But the people winning all the fights is the losing team. That's how EP was in Azura, losing losing losing the campaign... But who really getting all the AP?? EP is. Walk to L'Rey Mr. 6.5 MILLION!

Only server I'd avoid.. Chillrend. EP buff server. AP heroes just itching to farm you there. Thornblade and Haderus good servers to spread too!!

just lol

Crown · July 2015

NPK Daniel wrote: »

And....We've won 3 out of 4....so, that's, like, uh, not losing.... :-) I am CN now, and our tactics developed while fighting superior numbers constantly. It's not our fault those same tactics break the server now that we have equal numbers of DC and AD fighting each other.

If you are using the same tactics to fight the guild that fields more than two full raid groups as you do to fight groups of 12, then I question your strategy.

The last few days of the campaign, not being able to find anywhere on the map to fight with less than a 2-3 second delay on skills, many have us said, "Screw the campaign, this isn't fun, lets make AP somewhere else". Looking at the leaderboards, the top people made under 70k AP per day. Those of us who went elsewhere made that in less than two hours. With a lot of newer people who aren't yet alliance 24 (pvp skill 10), making AP for them to rank up is of higher importance than lag prayers to RNG daedric gods in the hopes that one day flags will flip.

With two days to go, blue and yellow were neck and neck. What blue won was the competition to see who has the most patience. After two or three 15 minute lag fights trying to defend a keep vs. three full raid groups with less than a full 24 on our side, nobody has fun. When we win a lag fight, we usually spend a few minutes asking why the heck we waste the time on that and try to figure out if there's anywhere else less laggy to play. Since you guys just come back and do it again, and again, and again, it must be fun to you..

NPK Daniel wrote: »

As victors, I'd prefer not to rub it in, and us DC actually do the right thing, regardless of the fact the banana did not.

I don't understand how our opposing factions maintain the delusion that AD is unified in our decisions. Every group makes their own decisions, and unfortunately there are less and less communications these days (other than the "bugger off I'll do what I want / don't you effing tell me where to go" types of responses when we try to coordinate). If you see two guilds in one place, there's slightly more than a zero percent chance that they decided to gang up on you. More than likely, they both expected a fight (and thus AP) in that area or it's the next logical place to attack. If one guild has two full raid groups hitting BRK, then anyone else who doesn't want lag will head to Ash (based on the theoretical scenario that we own Nikel/Sej). If that means that there are three groups of 16 that head to Ash, then there will probably be arguments over who stays or goes - if the leaders even deign to communicate (unlikely at best).

Regarding doing the right thing, how does stacking 75+ people keep by keep fall into that category? You know that it causes a lag fight. You know (because I've whispered multiple leaders of blue groups) that I've tried to coordinate (as little as AD will follow my suggestions) having at most one large organized group (and whatever randoms are there) per keep so as to mitigate the lag fights, yet you keep coming with each of you responding that you "only have one group". Each of your "only one group" adds up. Combat Analytics has consistently shown between 70 and 90 blues (how many unique names damaged me cross referenced with how many unique names I damaged) at many of these fights during prime time. That definitely doesn't sound like "the right thing".

Unless things change, this coming campaign I'm intending to ignore map control and play purely for points in whatever campaign has the most balanced (or least AD to more other) population to help the new people level up. Getting people to the levels to have Barrier, Proxy, Vigor and the level 10 passives in preparation for the next major patch wins over trying to deal with lag fights.

TLDR: Congratulations on winning the campaign. I'm not upset we lost - it's more ZOS's issue with lag than anything we could have possibly done better or different. I just want to point out that your tactics of piling on the numbers in one place that seem to be the only way you guys win consistently is not strategic, nor is it "the right thing".

Kupoking · July 2015

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/173027/population-inbalances-in-azura#latest

Dc loses due to being outnumbered. Not out lagged.

There is a difference between brining 2+ raids on the field or brining em all stacked up and immobile chaining springs.

Winnamine · July 2015

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

My blob guild has been in Had all week. We will be were there are fights/tolerable latency.

Excellent, I just hope that means if 9000 other AD show up, in the future, you choose not to continue dog-pilling the apposing faction. You guys have no idea how many DC quit this game after what you Banana did the previous cycle in Azura (that yes, you won!).

As victors, I'd prefer not to rub it in, and us DC actually do the right thing, regardless of the fact the banana did not.

Considering how many people NPK runs, and when you add Nemesis to that, 4 raids doesn't actually seem unreasonable to oppose you. I mean, the lag would be unreal, but the numbers would be fairly even...
In any event, Deci has been on Had all week, so we are not contributing to your dogpile.

Minno · July 2015

Winnamine wrote: »

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

My blob guild has been in Had all week. We will be were there are fights/tolerable latency.

Excellent, I just hope that means if 9000 other AD show up, in the future, you choose not to continue dog-pilling the apposing faction. You guys have no idea how many DC quit this game after what you Banana did the previous cycle in Azura (that yes, you won!).

As victors, I'd prefer not to rub it in, and us DC actually do the right thing, regardless of the fact the banana did not.

Considering how many people NPK runs, and when you add Nemesis to that, 4 raids doesn't actually seem unreasonable to oppose you. I mean, the lag would be unreal, but the numbers would be fairly even...
In any event, Deci has been on Had all week, so we are not contributing to your dogpile.

I think Daniel needs to change his name to Daniel Norris; everyone is thinking he runs with NPK still lol

Kobaal · July 2015

Crown wrote: »

...
TLDR: Congratulations on winning the campaign. I'm not upset we lost - it's more ZOS's issue with lag than anything we could have possibly done better or different. I just want to point out that your tactics of piling on the numbers in one place that seem to be the only way you guys win consistently is not strategic, nor is it "the right thing".

Kind of like EP and AD stacking in the keep towers (corners) or flags and not moving, which results in us having to have 30 min lagfest battles. I totally agree with you.

Crown · July 2015

Kobaal wrote: »

Kind of like EP and AD stacking in the keep towers (corners) or flags and not moving, which results in us having to have 30 min lagfest battles. I totally agree with you.

We all know that every faction does it. When I'm leading a group and a lag fight ensues, my rule is: If it's our home keep, we stay to the end and if it's not our home keep, we leave to find less laggy points. There are a few exceptions, though not many and not often. I consider this honourable fighting within the constraints that have been imposed by the current state of the game. Unfortunately not everyone (or even many) seem to agree with me, regardless of faction.

When my group (under my leadership) is in a lag fight, we are always moving, and unlike some of the corner-stackers we don't have people dedicated to spamming certain skills that we all know increase lag. I have zero respect for people who stack a full group in one spot with almost all spamming efficient purge / springs while another group or two do the actual fighting. That is not honourable fighting, and that is what we witnessed many times this campaign.

CN_Daniel · July 2015

PURGE MACHINE GO!

Winnamine · July 2015

Minno wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

My blob guild has been in Had all week. We will be were there are fights/tolerable latency.

Excellent, I just hope that means if 9000 other AD show up, in the future, you choose not to continue dog-pilling the apposing faction. You guys have no idea how many DC quit this game after what you Banana did the previous cycle in Azura (that yes, you won!).

As victors, I'd prefer not to rub it in, and us DC actually do the right thing, regardless of the fact the banana did not.

Considering how many people NPK runs, and when you add Nemesis to that, 4 raids doesn't actually seem unreasonable to oppose you. I mean, the lag would be unreal, but the numbers would be fairly even...
In any event, Deci has been on Had all week, so we are not contributing to your dogpile.

I think Daniel needs to change his name to Daniel Norris; everyone is thinking he runs with NPK still lol

"Last cycle of Azura, the banana constantly piled on 4+ raids against Nemesis & NPK. We asked them to self police, but they didn't..."
Well, he said NPK and Nemesis, so I was responding to that.

Minno · July 2015

Winnamine wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

My blob guild has been in Had all week. We will be were there are fights/tolerable latency.

Excellent, I just hope that means if 9000 other AD show up, in the future, you choose not to continue dog-pilling the apposing faction. You guys have no idea how many DC quit this game after what you Banana did the previous cycle in Azura (that yes, you won!).

As victors, I'd prefer not to rub it in, and us DC actually do the right thing, regardless of the fact the banana did not.

Considering how many people NPK runs, and when you add Nemesis to that, 4 raids doesn't actually seem unreasonable to oppose you. I mean, the lag would be unreal, but the numbers would be fairly even...
In any event, Deci has been on Had all week, so we are not contributing to your dogpile.

I think Daniel needs to change his name to Daniel Norris; everyone is thinking he runs with NPK still lol

"Last cycle of Azura, the banana constantly piled on 4+ raids against Nemesis & NPK. We asked them to self police, but they didn't..."
Well, he said NPK and Nemesis, so I was responding to that.

Lol yea i know, I was just responding in general.

hammayolettuce · July 2015

Self policing is great and all but I'm pretty sure everyone's just looking for fights. Let's not pretend that DC is coordinated enough to always know which guilds are on what servers at any given moment. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think it's gonna happen.

Lunamarie · July 2015

Thread is summed up by two lines:

NPK Daniel: "I'm awesome"

Rest of Us: "Golf Clapping"

xaraan · July 2015

I think we should stop pretending that one side is the only side the stacks up. All three zerg and I'm not just talking about when there is one emp keep left or a scroll run or something you expect to attract others. I'm talking using two full raids to fight half a dozen guys. And this has gone on since launch and has come from all manner of guilds that say they normally don't do it.

It's on ZoS really I suppose. They shouldn't reward those that stack the way they do and they should reduce group size to twelve IMO as well. They also should lower the stealth radius for every person within the radius until when five players or more are in it, it is zero and they cannot stealth. They should earn no AP (or XP) for fighting one guy with a dozen. Seige should scale up the way they are doing prox det now as well. I've seen a lot of other ideas on the forums that are good as well, but they don't do anything.

The lag is ridiculous though and needs to be fixed now. Not later. Not next patch or the patch after. It should be the type of thing that is #1 priority, people don't go home until fixed, etc. Because otherwise this game will suffer for it and they will be moving on to other jobs if it dies.

bosmern_ESO · July 2015

Kobaal wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

"AD please stop running with more then group"

-meanwhile NPK is running with 50+

This guy obviously has no idea what is going on, confirmed by outdated NPK reference.

outdated? the other day I saw your guild with about 40 people balling up chasing the white dress.

SkylarkAU · July 2015

It's not the quantity of players in an area, it's the behavior of those players that cause the lag events. I saw a DC guild doing it just today.. so this thread must be a troll.

/backtoreality

ArcVelarian · July 2015

Jules wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

BigTone wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

BigTone wrote: »

Just remember that recently there was an effort made for DC guilds to come together because we were too spread out and not able to pop lock a campaign when we were going up against two other pop locked factions.

The problem I see with this is not the guilds, its everyone else. Most, not all, single players single players will go where there is the most population and eventually pop lock a campaign. What needs to happen is ZoS needs to lower population caps so players are forced to spread out. I admire your idea, but I don't think its going to help.

For example if my guild suddenly decided to go to Thornblade Azura would still be pop locked until Thornblade had a higher population, and then most of the single players would pop lock Thornblade and we will be in the same position we are in now.

I understand where you're coming from. However Cyrodiil is an insanely large map and the person per sq foot (or whatever the tamriel equivalence of this) is fairly low. We don't know what the actual pop cap is for some unknown reason. But I feel that lowering it further would result in higher queues into big campaigns, and less overall good fights within those campaigns.

My hope is that the higher queues would entice people to play on a different server. It just frustrates me that we as players have to police ourselves when the responsibility should fall on ZoS.

Yeah I see that. And I completely agree. It's funny, as you were typing your response I edited mine and kinda said the same thing. It's ridiculous that our entire gameplay and community revolves around avoiding lag. The fact that we have to even have this conversation - that guilds have to align themselves and rework their game plans just to accommodate lag should make every ZOS worker embarrassed.

Agreed!

I left Azura and took my people to another campaign the last two nights as i don't want to deal with the lag being caused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Geja2ZbEWg

For Nostaligia sakes, look at this video from the 1st cycle of Wabbajack with Fixate,Those groups spamming the living tar out of AOE, bat swarm, impulse, etc and look...no lag or FPS drops hardly at all... I wish we could have this back.

Great vid. Also interesting points to note:

1) this healer is using healing springs fairly frequently
2) there is no crown
3) populations appear to be much larger

Where did you go wrong ZOS?

The interior lighting patch. >_>

Though it seems that the overall problem is that ZoS somehow reduced the Cyrodiil servers traffick capacity, which is not just players running around so much as the server's ability to talk back and forth with each client (and there are certain grps of players that exploit this diminished capacity).

Or the over-arching problem may just be the utter lack of a 64-bit client...