Fighter's Guild Skills and the upcoming changes to Vampires and Werewolves in 1.7

RinaldoGandolphi

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

So with the announcement that vampires and werewolves will now have their poison and fire weakness reduced from 40% to 25%, the Fighters Guild skill line needs to be addressed.

This is where the Fighters Guild skill line needs to come into play. If you guys/gals are going to reduce the weaknesses to fire and poison of Vampires and Werewolves, then the Fighter's Guild skills need to be buffed to compensate because right now they are not good enough on their own to counter the WW, well the Vamp more specifically.

Suggested changes to Fighter's Guild

• Silver Bolts - Needs its old proc damage back, it should have a 10% chance of insta killing a vamp or WW and hitting for a ton of damage. Right now the skill is simply not good enough because even though the proc rate is higher, it only does a fraction of the damage the old Silver Bolts did.
• Expert Hunter - It needs its proc rating increased to about 25% on undead and daedra.(Camo Hunter 100% proc from stealth reduced to 15% chance for extra damage)
• Circle of Protection - Needs to have a 30% Healing debuffed applied to undead and daedra who enter the Circle that lasts 6-8 secs
• Trap Beast - Should have a larger radius, a reduced arm time, do more damage, and disorient and root undead and daedra only.
• Skilled Tracker Passive - Will allow Fighter's Guild Abilities to proc on WW in human form,and will highlight WW just like Vampires if the player has Expert Hunter Slotted. After all untransformed WW are still WW, and you do become a "skilled tracker"
• Dawnbreaker - Its added damage against Daedra and Undead should be increased to 100%..your pulling our Merida's Daedric Artifact, it was created by Merdia for the sole purpose of smiting undead.
• Slayer Passive - Reduce the bonus from 9% to 6% at rank III
• Vampires and Werewolves lose access to Fighter's Guild skills and and passives and get access back if they cure themselves
  

Conclusion

Right now Vampires are way more powerful then the Fighter's Guild abilities used to counter them. There is a reason the majority of the Emps and the high ranking leader boards in PVP have mostly been Vampires in the past year....because the skills used to counter them are weak in comparison. Vampires can turn invisible, use skills while being invisible, with an AOE Ultimate that moves with them, yet Fighter's Guild abilities hardly make a scratch in comparison.

The suggested nerf to Bolt Escape will almost ensure nearly every Sorc becomes a Vampire for access to Mist form, and again were back at the same crux.

Werewolves are actually pretty powerful now in WW form. They can fear everyone, they have a nasty claw attack that does disease damage, they have some pretty nice passives, the skill line is far from useless.I actually like the fact that WW got some buffs and such, they needed them.

The Fighter's Guild skills need to be buffed to be the true counter to Vampires and Werewolves in PVP. With the upcoming changes and lowering of the weaknesses, your removing the tradeoffs of a character design choice, making these choices more powerful while removing their weaknesses.

If the Fighter's Guild skills are not tweaked, every single player in PVP will be either a Werewolf or a Vampire...as there will simply be no positives to not being one at all. There will be no reason whatsoever to not be one or the other. There has to be some sort of an advantage to not being a Vampire or a Werewolf that is as good as being a Vampire or a Werewolf. I think Fighter's Guild abilities that hit hard, and only non-vamps and non-ww having access to Fighter's Guild abilities and passives is an incentive to remain pure.

If Fighter's Guild Line is not adjusted, the Game will be Elder Twilight Online. I know ZOS doesn't intend this, but there will be no reason not to be a vampire or a werewolf for PVP. I think its bad for the game to not have meaningful tradeoffs in character design choices.

Those are my thoughts, and thanks Rich and Gina for taking the time to read. Just the fact your guys and gals do read, I appreciate the time you take to. Take Care, and thanks for making such a fun game

Had to edit to fix a few typos

Leandor

While I can see your point for the need to make "non-changelings" more attractive to play, you went overboard on every single proposal. Increasing the damage of skills that can already reach 25k crits (Expert Hunter)? 25% chance of one-shot (shards)? You've got to be kidding me...

RinaldoGandolphi

Leandor wrote: »

While I can see your point for the need to make "non-changelings" more attractive to play, you went overboard on every single proposal. Increasing the damage of skills that can already reach 25k crits (Expert Hunter)? 25% chance of one-shot (shards)? You've got to be kidding me...

Your forgetting damage is being reduced in Cyrodiil across the board by 50%....

Furthermore i said 10% chance to proc Silver Bolts not 25%...i said 10% chance to hit like it used too. that means 9 out of 10 times Silver Bolts hits for medicore damage, but 1 out of 10 times it hits hard...thats fair....

cozmon3c_ESO

proc damage should not one shot people imo, even if they are weak to it. takes teh skill out of the game with random big bursts that there is no way to actively defend against it. What they should do is drop the damage and increase the proc chance so there wont be huge burst damage making you think your good because your using evil hunter and it proc a bazillion damage.

75% proc chance to do 1000 more damage to WW and Vamps.

done, and doesnt give game breaking burst, but sustain that someone can recover from.

Imdrefan

I play a vampire, I get 1 shotted by camo hunter, EVERY-SINGLE-DAY.

If I get caught off guard and get charged and someone uses flawless dawnbreaker on me, I'm insta-gibbed. There are very many counters to vampires aside from fire.

I'm not complaining, that's the sacrifice I make for the perks of being a vampire.

I've never said this before, but I feel it's needed here, L2P.

RinaldoGandolphi

Imdrefan wrote: »

I play a vampire, I get 1 shotted by camo hunter, EVERY-SINGLE-DAY.

If I get caught off guard and get charged and someone uses flawless dawnbreaker on me, I'm insta-gibbed. There are very many counters to vampires aside from fire.

I'm not complaining, that's the sacrifice I make for the perks of being a vampire.

I've never said this before, but I feel it's needed here, L2P.

Camo Hunter has a 100% chance to proc on Undead and Daedra from Stealth, the other Morph offers no such 1 shot ability. Everyone here just is assuming Camo Hunter and thats not what im talking about at all. Infact im going to edit the post to clarify.

RinaldoGandolphi

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

proc damage should not one shot people imo, even if they are weak to it. takes teh skill out of the game with random big bursts that there is no way to actively defend against it. What they should do is drop the damage and increase the proc chance so there wont be huge burst damage making you think your good because your using evil hunter and it proc a bazillion damage.

a 1 out of 10 chance is a pretty small chance....when talking about Silver Shards...9 times out of 10 a vamp gets shot with that it don't 1 shot him...its only 1 out of those 10 times....Vampires have numerous advantages such as being able to turn Invisible while still being able to use their skills, an AOE Ultimate that moves with them and does damage....is a 10% chance of being smashed in the face really that much of deterrent to such an advantage?

ToRelax

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

proc damage should not one shot people imo, even if they are weak to it. takes teh skill out of the game with random big bursts that there is no way to actively defend against it. What they should do is drop the damage and increase the proc chance so there wont be huge burst damage making you think your good because your using evil hunter and it proc a bazillion damage.

a 1 out of 10 chance is a pretty small chance....when talking about Silver Shards...9 times out of 10 a vamp gets shot with that it don't 1 shot him...its only 1 out of those 10 times....Vampires have numerous advantages such as being able to turn Invisible while still being able to use their skills, an AOE Ultimate that moves with them and does damage....is a 10% chance of being smashed in the face really that much of deterrent to such an advantage?

Yes, a chance to instantly die because you got hit by a spammable skill is pretty idiotic.

RinaldoGandolphi

I played a Vampire too for awhile and its very good in PVP, Fighter's Guild skills are an afterthought. As for Camo Hunter, face it....most of the time your shot with it while on horseback or whatnot and your mostly likely going to be dead anyway if it procs or not.

Camo Hunter is only really viable for stealth archers, usually Nightblades, I think Camo Hunter should have a small chance to proc the extra damage instead of 100% like it currently does.

This game will become Twilight Online if the Fighter's Guild Skill Line is not tweaked. Why would i not become a Vampire with the current condition of the FG? Its not like any of those skills outside of Camo Hunter from stealth is any real threat to do anything to any vamp or WW. None of those other skills are going to take a slot from something else you already have. thats the point.

RinaldoGandolphi

ToRelax wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

proc damage should not one shot people imo, even if they are weak to it. takes teh skill out of the game with random big bursts that there is no way to actively defend against it. What they should do is drop the damage and increase the proc chance so there wont be huge burst damage making you think your good because your using evil hunter and it proc a bazillion damage.

a 1 out of 10 chance is a pretty small chance....when talking about Silver Shards...9 times out of 10 a vamp gets shot with that it don't 1 shot him...its only 1 out of those 10 times....Vampires have numerous advantages such as being able to turn Invisible while still being able to use their skills, an AOE Ultimate that moves with them and does damage....is a 10% chance of being smashed in the face really that much of deterrent to such an advantage?

Yes, a chance to instantly die because you got hit by a spammable skill is pretty idiotic.

The same Silver Bolts that existed in the game for nearly a year....anyone remember the 5% chance to do an insane amount of damage to undead and daedra.....and its only a chance to kill you instantly if your a Vampire....its not going to instantly kill anyone who isn;t one.....

Then again, its not idiotic to have an AOE Ultimate that moves with you, givesyou invisibility, and allows you to spam all your skills while remain invisible.......

OdinForge

I think I'm the only one using trap beast on those pesky whippy dragonbats.

Would be a shame if it ended up doing even less damage after the next patch.

ToRelax

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

proc damage should not one shot people imo, even if they are weak to it. takes teh skill out of the game with random big bursts that there is no way to actively defend against it. What they should do is drop the damage and increase the proc chance so there wont be huge burst damage making you think your good because your using evil hunter and it proc a bazillion damage.

a 1 out of 10 chance is a pretty small chance....when talking about Silver Shards...9 times out of 10 a vamp gets shot with that it don't 1 shot him...its only 1 out of those 10 times....Vampires have numerous advantages such as being able to turn Invisible while still being able to use their skills, an AOE Ultimate that moves with them and does damage....is a 10% chance of being smashed in the face really that much of deterrent to such an advantage?

Yes, a chance to instantly die because you got hit by a spammable skill is pretty idiotic.

The same Silver Bolts that existed in the game for nearly a year....anyone remember the 5% chance to do an insane amount of damage to undead and daedra.....and its only a chance to kill you instantly if your a Vampire....its not going to instantly kill anyone who isn;t one.....

Then again, its not idiotic to have an AOE Ultimate that moves with you, givesyou invisibility, and allows you to spam all your skills while remain invisible.......

And the change to Silver Bolts was good insofar it gave it a higher proc chance while lowering it's damage. Though I feel the damage on the proc should still be higher, just nowhere close to what it was pre 1.6.

As for Clouding Swarm, I'd be the last to say it was balanced before 1.6, but as an ulti it's not spammable anymore now and already had it's duration reduced to 5 seconds, I think it's fine.

RinaldoGandolphi

ToRelax wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

proc damage should not one shot people imo, even if they are weak to it. takes teh skill out of the game with random big bursts that there is no way to actively defend against it. What they should do is drop the damage and increase the proc chance so there wont be huge burst damage making you think your good because your using evil hunter and it proc a bazillion damage.

a 1 out of 10 chance is a pretty small chance....when talking about Silver Shards...9 times out of 10 a vamp gets shot with that it don't 1 shot him...its only 1 out of those 10 times....Vampires have numerous advantages such as being able to turn Invisible while still being able to use their skills, an AOE Ultimate that moves with them and does damage....is a 10% chance of being smashed in the face really that much of deterrent to such an advantage?

Yes, a chance to instantly die because you got hit by a spammable skill is pretty idiotic.

The same Silver Bolts that existed in the game for nearly a year....anyone remember the 5% chance to do an insane amount of damage to undead and daedra.....and its only a chance to kill you instantly if your a Vampire....its not going to instantly kill anyone who isn;t one.....

Then again, its not idiotic to have an AOE Ultimate that moves with you, givesyou invisibility, and allows you to spam all your skills while remain invisible.......

And the change to Silver Bolts was good insofar it gave it a higher proc chance while lowering it's damage. Though I feel the damage on the proc should still be higher, just nowhere close to what it was pre 1.6.

As for Clouding Swarm, I'd be the last to say it was balanced before 1.6, but as an ulti it's not spammable anymore now and already had it's duration reduced to 5 seconds, I think it's fine.

Fair enough, but we are getting to the point now that being a Vampire has all these advantages and no drawbacks at all

First they increased the proc chance and lowered the damage on most Fighter's Guild abiltiies

Then they lowered fire weakness from 50% to 40%

Now they are lowering fire weakness again from 40% to 25%

They might as well have no fire weakness at all, and the Fighter;s Guild abilities on their own don't cut the mustard in comparison to the advantages and powers you get for being a vampire. Where is the trade off?

Remember, i want Fighter's Guild abilities to be useless against non-vampires and non-werewolves in pvp. A person would have to sacrifice a skill slot for a skill that hardly damages anyone who isn't one of the aforementioned two changelings, in return for doing more damage to those who are.

So both side gets a tradeoff, Vamps/WW will know there is a chance people are taking certain skill choices off their bar and using skills designed solely to kill them. On the flipside, players will know they are sacrificing a skill slot that could be used to do more damage universally and be more useful against everyone, to use a skill specificlaly designed to kill vampires and werewolves, perhaps they are giving up a heal, perhaps they are giving up a damage shield...its still a trade on both ends.

right now, being a vamp or WW will be a no brainer, and the FG abilties will not be up to par to even be remotely able to do the job they were intended to do which is counter vampires and werewolves.

jrkhan

Well, gee, way to kill my Westley Snipes/self hating vampire build.

Vamps already have reduced hp regen (which may turn out to be more important), ~5% more damage from anyone with passives in fighters guild and 20% fire damage vulnerability.

What drawbacks come from using the passives in the fighters/mages guild line?
Oh, none? Hmm..


"Randomly getting one shot" is a pretty big trade off.

8% weapon damage on flawless and the major crit buff is used by a lot of builds, so I'm not sure the skill line being mutually exclusive is a great idea unless those buffs becomes available elsewhere.
Unless you just want to kill the viability of any stam vamps?

chevalierknight

Only change i liked was locking fights from vampires and ww and have the tree work vs ww even when human as people see ww as a passive

RinaldoGandolphi

Its actually 5% more spell and weapon damage, so its not exactly a 5% flat damage increase.

Vampires get:

• 10% increase to stamina and magic regen
• Reduction in damage when below 50% health that can scale as high as 50%
• They get a bonus to reduce the health regen penalty a good bit
• They get faster sneaking and enter stealth at night faster
• they get Mist Form that negates 75% of all damage and gives them a 40% increase in movement spepd for 4 secs
• They get the only ultimate in the game that is an AOE and moves with the player.
• They get the only Ultimate in the game that is AOE and turns and keeps them invisible for its duration allowing them to attack while invisible
• They get the only Ultimate in the game that is AOE and heals them for every person they hit.

What do Fighter's Guild get?

• 9% increase to weapon and spell damage when hitting undead and daedra
• 3 extra ultimate for killing an undead and daedra
• A cheap Ultimate that does ok damage in a small cone with a 0.5 sec cast time
• Everything else is for PVE, intimidation, taking Fighter's Guild quests in Cyrodiil

jrkhan

You are familiar with the usage of '~' to indicate 'approximately' yes?

cjthibs

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Its actually 5% more spell and weapon damage, so its not exactly a 5% flat damage increase.

Vampires get:

• 10% increase to stamina and magic regen
• Reduction in damage when below 50% health that can scale as high as 50%
• They get a bonus to reduce the health regen penalty a good bit
• They get faster sneaking and enter stealth at night faster
• they get Mist Form that negates 75% of all damage and gives them a 40% increase in movement spepd for 4 secs
• They get the only ultimate in the game that is an AOE and moves with the player.
• They get the only Ultimate in the game that is AOE and turns and keeps them invisible for its duration allowing them to attack while invisible
• They get the only Ultimate in the game that is AOE and heals them for every person they hit.

What do Fighter's Guild get?

• 9% increase to weapon and spell damage when hitting undead and daedra
• 3 extra ultimate for killing an undead and daedra
• A cheap Ultimate that does ok damage in a small cone with a 0.5 sec cast time
• Everything else is for PVE, intimidation, taking Fighter's Guild quests in Cyrodiil

This is so depressing when you look at the current state of Werewolf.

jrkhan

I'm guessing you mostly play magika builds?
10% crit and 8% weapon damage are pretty big if you are stam dps (and I'm pretty sure the fire resist change was in part proposed to make vamps viable in fire based pve content)
So, it would kind of defeat the purpose to make vamps/ww second rate stam dps in pve.

RinaldoGandolphi

jrkhan wrote: »

I'm guessing you mostly play magika builds?
10% crit and 8% weapon damage are pretty big if you are stam dps (and I'm pretty sure the fire resist change was in part proposed to make vamps viable in fire based pve content)
So, it would kind of defeat the purpose to make vamps/ww second rate stam dps in pve.

Well they could add passives to the WW and Vamp trees to give them the weapon damage passive of Dawnbreaker. I don't see anything in the Fighter's guild that gives 10% weapon crit. If you mean Mage's Guild im fine with vamps and WW being able to use Mage;'s Guild stuff as the Mage;s guild isn't directly related storywise to the undead daedra thing.

jrkhan

The major crit buff is on the "evil/camo hunter" ability.
I can't think of a reason not to have it slotted in pve as any stam build.

RinaldoGandolphi

jrkhan wrote: »

The major crit buff is on the "evil/camo hunter" ability.
I can't think of a reason not to have it slotted in pve as any stam build.

ahh yeah i forgot about that one. Yeah i would be fine giving Vamps and WW a passive that gives the Weapon Damage bonus of Flawless Dawnbreaker, and the weapon crit passive of Expert Hunter. I just wish this game had more meaningful choices, but i digress

Chrlynsch

Overall base damage increase + weakness to specific element + fighters guild procs are enough... make feeding for vampires more dynamic.

Find other ways to weed out and thin the vamp, werewolf population other than make them instant ash.

Add skill lines for human only, necromancy, Mara healing line.

DragonRebel0581

Just edit the fighters guild passive to provide the 9% damage buff to vampires and werewolves as well and provide 3 extra ultimate killing them as well.

Besides just because a very small population of non-human race players is getting a much needed buff doesnt mean an entire skill tree needs one too, or needs to be restricted like it was suggested.

Not every player is a vampire or werewolf, and yet you seem to be treating them as if they are.

Xqluded

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

• Silver Bolts - Needs its old proc damage back, it should have a 10% chance of insta killing a vamp or WW and hitting for a ton of damage. Right now the skill is simply not good enough because even though the proc rate is higher, it only does a fraction of the damage the old Silver Bolts did.

So all I have to do is get level 10 to enter cyrodill then get silver bolts and find V14 vamps and spam bolts till I get an instant kill proc? No thanks

Xeniph

I think The abilities are fine. If folks don't want to be a Vamp or WW it is due to the weaknesses or for a roleplay reason.

I regularly get 6-9k crits with Camo hunter on a 18k heavy maul attack from stealth. This ability is a bit over the top if you ask me, that's a lot of burst.

As for the other abilities in the line, they are pretty worthless aside from Dawnbreaker. Pretty much like the Mages, Undaunted lines and their one or 2 useful skills.. They are meant to supplement your playstyle, which they do quite well, imo.

leepalmer95

Flawless dawnbreaker is so good vs vamps/ww, i 1 hit a vet 14 today with it. He tried to sneak hit me but i saw him go into stealth earlier so i just held block, then he comes and and bam insta death.

CP5

cjthibs wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Its actually 5% more spell and weapon damage, so its not exactly a 5% flat damage increase.

Vampires get:

• 10% increase to stamina and magic regen
• Reduction in damage when below 50% health that can scale as high as 50%
• They get a bonus to reduce the health regen penalty a good bit
• They get faster sneaking and enter stealth at night faster
• they get Mist Form that negates 75% of all damage and gives them a 40% increase in movement spepd for 4 secs
• They get the only ultimate in the game that is an AOE and moves with the player.
• They get the only Ultimate in the game that is AOE and turns and keeps them invisible for its duration allowing them to attack while invisible
• They get the only Ultimate in the game that is AOE and heals them for every person they hit.

What do Fighter's Guild get?

• 9% increase to weapon and spell damage when hitting undead and daedra
• 3 extra ultimate for killing an undead and daedra
• A cheap Ultimate that does ok damage in a small cone with a 0.5 sec cast time
• Everything else is for PVE, intimidation, taking Fighter's Guild quests in Cyrodiil

This is so depressing when you look at the current state of Werewolf.

But remember, the combat team says "werewolves are fine," so it must be something we're doing wrong.

Also @OP, restrict an entire guild (skill line and quest) because the player picked up a single skill line? Not likely going to happen, and when you realize most people are ww's just for the poorly placed stamina regen passive then this would easily kill off the skill tree for a while in all pvp, so no thank you, a bit beyond overboard.

notimetocare

So they are nerfing damage done in pvp so it makes sense to readjust Silver Shards to 1 shot again? LOL whut?

Lava_Croft

pls buff camo hunter

Pchela

Who honestly uses trap beast