Bad news for Stam Sorc

cozmon3c_ESO

So after watching ESO live and seeing the changes coming, well lets just start by saying if you ever wanted to be a stam sorc or try a stam sorc, its totally not going to be viable for pvp anyway. Eric Wrobel touched on none of the Stam sorc weaknesses and didnt give it anything to make it more viable AT all.

Nerf to Bolt Escape
-So we all know that bolt escape was nerfed already and it was making it hard for a Stam sorc to even use it more then once, but with the new nerf coming it means as a stam sorc you can only use bolt escape once and thats it. Every time you use bolt escape it will increase by 50% ever consecutive cast, not just for one cast but increase in cost over and over. This was the only Oh Sh%% button that a stam sorc had to get out of hairy situations, and this nerf is going to make it so you will die even more as a stam sorc. GG Eric, i remember like 5 months ago you were going to see how to make Stam sorc more viable option and alls i can say is you failed and went in the Backwards direction and made changes that do not help at all in sorcs ability to survive, i mean die, on the battlefield. good job.

Buff to Lightening form,
-Cool what ever, this is not why stam sorc suffers in pvp what so ever, pve buff only probably. Unless the damage is significant, which it probably wont be, then its just a crap change that means nothing.

Buff to Crit Surge
-Again what ever, it still wont surpass the effectiveness of Rally and Vigor. Just a crap change for those who have not unlocked Vigor.

So What are the key issues of stam sorc then, eric would ask.

Survivability
-Stam sorc does not have a Hardened ward, and with the nerf to dodge roll (which they were least effective with out of all the other classes) What Do THEY HAVE FOR SURVIVAL NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you that blind man, i mean seriously. Bolt escape nerf will hurt stam sorc the most. Boundless storm speed is not enough because of the change you made in 1.4 that when you get charged at you get rooted in place, giving power to those who outnumber you. if mobility is supposed to be its strength, then give us a minor expedition buff that we can stack with major expedition buff and bow roll dodge speed increase. Then stam sorc would stand out as something other then just a Weapons expert (i mean crappy at all weapons compared to all classes)

Damage
-Stam sorc has no INSTANT DAMAGE ANYTHING, hey eric, look into changing crystal blast into a melee ranged stam ability that works like crystal frag, ZOMG GENIUS ISNT IT!

Passive Synergies
-Where the hell are the Passives that Synergize with STAMINA, all the other damn classes have it, WHY NOT SORC.


I have waited this long Eric just to see what are the changes you were looking to do for stam sorc that you said you were going to do back in March and this is it??? WTF! i mean seriously wtf. Ill just continue on my way then cause wtf. and this will probably be deleted because wtf.

bowmanz607

you know that one of the morphs for this will be based off of stamina now right? allowing sorcs to utilize t more frequently when stamina based.

cozmon3c_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

you know that one of the morphs for this will be based off of stamina now right? allowing sorcs to utilize t more frequently when stamina based.

You know a Stam Sorc is Useless without mobility right, well guess what, the stam morph ability DOESNT GIVE A SPEED INCREASE Good F'ing GAME! if its not known that Eric Wrobel doesnt PVP at all out side of hits BOTs pvp game, its clearly shows.

OhItsReckt

You're crying because you don't have an escape? Does anyone else have an escape besides NB?

bowmanz607

OhItsReckt wrote: »

You're crying because you don't have an escape? Does anyone else have an escape besides NB?

well no but NB and sorc need escapes. temps and dks have armor buffs, sheilds, and most importantly self heals. their longer term survivability is placed in those skills not being elusive. NB and sorc requires being elusive.

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

you know that one of the morphs for this will be based off of stamina now right? allowing sorcs to utilize t more frequently when stamina based.

You know a Stam Sorc is Useless without mobility right, well guess what, the stam morph ability DOESNT GIVE A SPEED INCREASE Good F'ing GAME! if its not known that Eric Wrobel doesnt PVP at all out side of hits BOTs pvp game, its clearly shows.

throw on rapid/speed potion with a bow passive/ orc passive combined with speed. plus why do u need speed when streaking is faster then that. plus can use the steed mundus stone. there are ways to do it but other classes will be better at it. like NB. just because this game preaches play as you want does not mean that every class is equal doing everything. You have to build toward what you went when it is outside the usual way of using that character. it is just how it is. there are ways to have mobility as a sorc but you have to build that way.

cozmon3c_ESO

bowmanz607 wrote: »

OhItsReckt wrote: »

You're crying because you don't have an escape? Does anyone else have an escape besides NB?

well no but NB and sorc need escapes. temps and dks have armor buffs, sheilds, and most importantly self heals. their longer term survivability is placed in those skills not being elusive. NB and sorc requires being elusive.

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

you know that one of the morphs for this will be based off of stamina now right? allowing sorcs to utilize t more frequently when stamina based.

You know a Stam Sorc is Useless without mobility right, well guess what, the stam morph ability DOESNT GIVE A SPEED INCREASE Good F'ing GAME! if its not known that Eric Wrobel doesnt PVP at all out side of hits BOTs pvp game, its clearly shows.

throw on rapid/speed potion with a bow passive/ orc passive combined with speed. plus why do u need speed when streaking is faster then that. plus can use the steed mundus stone. there are ways to do it but other classes will be better at it. like NB. just because this game preaches play as you want does not mean that every class is equal doing everything. You have to build toward what you went when it is outside the usual way of using that character. it is just how it is. there are ways to have mobility as a sorc but you have to build that way.

Well right now NB and stam sorc are equal with the run speed, but we can only bolt one time after this change, which will be dumb as hell. you need at least three bolts to get a safe distance where boundless storm will be effective and cost efficient to get out of range of charges. Stam sorc is bone f'ed right now. Either Stam sorc needs superior mobility or a reliable self heal like dks and templars. zos needs to make up there mind because both are seriously lacking for Stam Sorc.

bowmanz607

Ya but they also said that a player speced for it can go a bunch of times before they need to stop. So you can spec that way if you want to. It would seem to me from what I understood from what he said is you can streak a solid 3 times before you have to really think about using it again because you won't be able to fight. This leads me to conclude that you could get a solid 5 out of it if you deplete what you have left instead of fight. This is plenty to get out of the zone of danger. Not to mention you can streak twice throw on a speed buff with a dodge roll with bow. By the time you do that and sprint some your debut on streak will be gone then you streak again. This is a very workable syatem. That way you don't stack your debuts on just dodgeroll/ streak which will be a better management if your stamina for escapability. You just have to be creative and utilize the abilities in a new way.

ToRelax

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Ya but they also said that a player speced for it can go a bunch of times before they need to stop. So you can spec that way if you want to. It would seem to me from what I understood from what he said is you can streak a solid 3 times before you have to really think about using it again because you won't be able to fight. This leads me to conclude that you could get a solid 5 out of it if you deplete what you have left instead of fight. This is plenty to get out of the zone of danger. Not to mention you can streak twice throw on a speed buff with a dodge roll with bow. By the time you do that and sprint some your debut on streak will be gone then you streak again. This is a very workable syatem. That way you don't stack your debuts on just dodgeroll/ streak which will be a better management if your stamina for escapability. You just have to be creative and utilize the abilities in a new way.

He was talking about magicka Sorcs, not stam Sorcs...
You already are far from being able to Bolt Escape 5 times in a row as a stam Sorc, with the change that will even be 30% more expensive without taking cost reduction into account. So in practice it's even more.

bowmanz607

Yes but since there is a stam morph tk it now it would also apply to stam builds not only magicka builds. That would just be illogical. You can't do it now cause there is not stam morph. This will be better for stam sorc and gives them a much better escape.

ToRelax

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Yes but since there is a stam morph tk it now it would also apply to stam builds not only magicka builds. That would just be illogical. You can't do it now cause there is not stam morph. This will be better for stam sorc and gives them a much better escape.

The only new stam morph I heard about is for Lightning Form, and will most likely by garbage.
Can you link your source?

bowmanz607

I lied I double checked the video I must have tuned out for when he switched from talking about bolt escape to lightning for and just heard the stamina morph. My bad I apologize. And yes I agree that does suck. That said still the increased speed from lightning for combined with a dodgeroll with lightning for is pretty legit. I use nb with bow dodgeroll and blur for the speed buff. It works well. That can be a quick move you can use to gain quick spwration combined with two bolt escapes and another dodgeroll lightning form. That is very doable.

bowmanz607

Additionally a stam nb can only use cloak at most 3 times before it is out. Moreover if we use it 3 times then we have no resources left for a blur dodgeroll combo. So it is a trade off. I think it is still reasonable compared to nb.

Domander

Yeah, because stam sorcs could cast bolt escape more than twice anyway? It's the same until the third cast, I don't think you're making a valid argument.

I think these are good changes.

bowmanz607

Dodgeroll and lightning form is still a pretty good escape regardless. Just like my dodgeroll blur combo. Works very well.

Septimus_Magna

If you wanted to play a stamina build you picked the wrong class, nothing helps stamina sorc builds except Dark Exchange morph and Bound Armor morph.

ToRelax

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Dodgeroll and lightning form is still a pretty good escape regardless. Just like my dodgeroll blur combo. Works very well.

Well yes, in it's current state Boundless Storm is an excellent skill for every stamina Sorc.
It's not as easy to escape with it as with Bolt Escape or Shadow Image, due to roots and charges, but it has the potential to be faster and more cost efficient.

Teargrants

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Additionally a stam nb can only use cloak at most 3 times before it is out. Moreover if we use it 3 times then we have no resources left for a blur dodgeroll combo. So it is a trade off. I think it is still reasonable compared to nb.

This statement is an utter load. If your stam NB can only manage 3 cloaks, you're doing it so wrong.

Mayrael

Dont worry my dear NB friends, soon there will be no sorcs and you will have to face more and more NBs so you wont have any advantage - just skill of a player will matter. NBs are QQ that sorcs shout loudest on forums but still sorcs get nerfs, NBs buffs Good i have 3 vr14 classes, so i dont care )) my NB was left at alliance skill line lvl 6 before 1.6 so its a good time to dust it off

Etaniel

Teargrants wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Additionally a stam nb can only use cloak at most 3 times before it is out. Moreover if we use it 3 times then we have no resources left for a blur dodgeroll combo. So it is a trade off. I think it is still reasonable compared to nb.

This statement is an utter load. If your stam NB can only manage 3 cloaks, you're doing it so wrong.

I know right.... My lowbie stamblade with no jewelry and absolutely everything into stamina can cast cloack at least 12 times in a row.....

bowmanz607

Umm ok let's see. I get about 11k magicka. Clack cost about what 3500. That is 3 cloaks. My regen is low so not high enough to get me more clocks without being outside my 3rd clock for 4sec. Or so. That is a v14 with everything in stam. I'm not doing 8t wrong just not geared for it.

CP5

Add in the fact that so many of the sorcerer skills rely on high magicka for their cost and damage, as well as the lack of utilities like for resource management. I hope Eric has more to add than this "change" to lightning form, right now it sounds about as promising as the expert mage passive change. Also @ZOS_GinaBruno, are there any other details that could help clarify this? We've been waiting since February for feedback and right now don't have much to look forward to as it stands.

Snit

You'll be less mobile (BE nerf) but have a point-blank AoE on at all times (lightning form buff). I guess the idea is you stand still next to the enemy. I'm sure that'll work out well in Cyrodiil

In all seriousness, I am curious to see how the serious stam sorcs adjust. There are only a few of them, but the ones I have seen make frequent use of the Streak/ Crit Charge synergy. That may no longer work.

Snit

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

-Stam sorc has no INSTANT DAMAGE ANYTHING, hey eric, look into changing crystal blast into a melee ranged stam ability that works like crystal frag, ZOMG GENIUS ISNT IT!

This seems like a great idea. I've never seen a sorc build that uses Crystal Blast, so why not make it useful for stamina specs?

TBois

The community has had much better ideas to help improve stam sorcs than zos. I don't know if the lightning form morph was too far along to change once the discussions got going, but it will be interesting to see how much the community feedback weighs into their decisions. Maybe we should be complaining in the alliance war forums, as the first page has no responses from zos in the pvp combat and skills forum. It doesn't seem like the combat team pays attention to their own forums. They just pick up the QQ noise in the most popular threads.

Edit: first zos response I found was on page 3, and there was only one on page 3

ToRelax

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Umm ok let's see. I get about 11k magicka. Clack cost about what 3500. That is 3 cloaks. My regen is low so not high enough to get me more clocks without being outside my 3rd clock for 4sec. Or so. That is a v14 with everything in stam. I'm not doing 8t wrong just not geared for it.

On my stam Sorc I have 1.5k magicka regen and my friend has 1.8k on his stam NB.
If you don't have any magicka regen, that's your own problem.

bowmanz607

well then his racial passive/ champ points/ gear/ mundus stone are tailored to that. probably even using drink. My stam build has no racial passives/ minimal champ points in magicka/ all gear in stam/ mundus stone stam. there is no way you have 1800 magicka regen without losing out on stamina power and recovery. sorry a complete stam build will not have that. yes i could do that but i will lose out on damage and stam recovery. the point i am trying to make is that a full stam build NB v. a full stam build sorc are going to have similar escaping capabilities. just as a stam focused NB with high magicka recovery and a stam focused sorc with high magicka recovery will have similar escapability. you guys/gals are missing the point i am trying to make. I am not saying it is impossible for a stam focused NB to use cloak more. in fact i agree if your build is tailored to it then you can do it. I am simply showing the similarities in stam sorc v. stam NB when built roughly the same.

ToRelax

bowmanz607 wrote: »

well then his racial passive/ champ points/ gear/ mundus stone are tailored to that. probably even using drink. My stam build has no racial passives/ minimal champ points in magicka/ all gear in stam/ mundus stone stam. there is no way you have 1800 magicka regen without losing out on stamina power and recovery. sorry a complete stam build will not have that. yes i could do that but i will lose out on damage and stam recovery. the point i am trying to make is that a full stam build NB v. a full stam build sorc are going to have similar escaping capabilities. just as a stam focused NB with high magicka recovery and a stam focused sorc with high magicka recovery will have similar escapability. you guys/gals are missing the point i am trying to make. I am not saying it is impossible for a stam focused NB to use cloak more. in fact i agree if your build is tailored to it then you can do it. I am simply showing the similarities in stam sorc v. stam NB when built roughly the same.

And that's where you make your mistake.
A stam Sorc with high magicka recovery can still not cast Bolt Escape several times in succession due to the immense cost and low magicka pool.
A stam NB with high magicka recovery however, can hold up Cloak for a very long time, forever if you build for it (and still use Double Take and Shadow Image).
And the coming change will widen that gap even more.

bowmanz607

here is the setup i am thinking that would make escapability with sorcs similar in the situation u highlighted above. bolt escape, then lighting form combined with a dodge roll (this will give your magicka time to recover and the cost debuff to disappear. then two bolt escapes and another dodge with lightinig form and your gone. although there are stam builds that may be able to use cloack half a dozen times cloack can still be countered with detect pots which all should be carrying in pvp and vulnerable to aoe. imo the best escapability for stam nb is using dark cloak like bolt escape. once or twice combined with blur. not to mention the detect pot situation leaves only dodge roll and blur. also, blur and cloak are both magicka based whereas lightning form and bolt escape come from two different pools. although they do not line up perfectly they both or realitvly close escapable moves.

Also, as they pointed out in eso love, each class should have its own abilities that differentiate them. where the sorc may lack in escapability (they are at least top 2 in this category), they make up for in shields plus a long term armor and spell buff.

ToRelax

bowmanz607 wrote: »

here is the setup i am thinking that would make escapability with sorcs similar in the situation u highlighted above. bolt escape, then lighting form combined with a dodge roll (this will give your magicka time to recover and the cost debuff to disappear. then two bolt escapes and another dodge with lightinig form and your gone. although there are stam builds that may be able to use cloack half a dozen times cloack can still be countered with detect pots which all should be carrying in pvp and vulnerable to aoe. imo the best escapability for stam nb is using dark cloak like bolt escape. once or twice combined with blur. not to mention the detect pot situation leaves only dodge roll and blur. also, blur and cloak are both magicka based whereas lightning form and bolt escape come from two different pools. although they do not line up perfectly they both or realitvly close escapable moves.

Also, as they pointed out in eso love, each class should have its own abilities that differentiate them. where the sorc may lack in escapability (they are at least top 2 in this category), they make up for in shields plus a long term armor and spell buff.

Don't misunderstand me - I have no problem with the mobility of stam Sorcs, just because NBs can escape more reliably (when detect pots wont work on cloak anyway).
To escape with a stam Sorc, I would use Bolt Escape, dodge and possibly LOS, Boundless Storm, dodge, sprint.

What Stam Sorc is needing is better defense, sustain and damage, wich he gets none of in the upcoming patch as far as we know yet.

Aunatar

We will only have hidden Nightblades in Cyrodill, waiting for somebody to go out of stealth
There will be no fighting in Cyr. Everyone will be hiding. And if somebody does not, we'll have a very nice dodge rolling dancing show. I will be there to fraps :'D

bowmanz607

What Stam Sorc is needing is better defense, sustain and damage, wich he gets none of in the upcoming patch as far as we know yet.

I can agree to an extent with that. I also think that bolt escape should have a stam morph to it. such a signature ability should be available to stam builds. i mean NB dont have anything really in terms of defense compared to the other classes.