Please nerf NBs and remove detection pots so i can actually have fun on my NB again

Dudis

I agree that Cloak in it's current form would be stupid without reliable ways to counter it but...
Literally every time i die on my NB (magicka btw) is because someone uses a detection pot and i get rushed down by multiples because everyone can suddenly see me.

Fixes (in prefered order)
1) remove detection pots, buff other detection abilities
2) make it so only the person using the pot can actually see you
3) nerf duration, 40 sec is just stupid.

Nerf Cloak too. Increase mana cost per use, whatever it takes... Just make it a balanced and reliable ability for pvp.


I'm aware this is like the gazillionth thread on this topic but meh.

Leandor

Dudis wrote: »

Nerf Cloak too. Increase mana cost per use, whatever it takes... Just make it a balanced and reliable ability for pvp.

What could you do? Reduce duration? 2.5 seconds is the shortest buff in game. Increase cost? Stamina blades can already use it 2 to 3 times consecutively at most. Make it easier to break? It is already pretty difficult to pull it of with curse and charge type attacks.

I see hell freezing over when and if they implement the change that is discussed in alliance war section (making cloak unbreakable by detection pots). That will be the forum war of the new millennium, I guess.

Maulkin

If detect pots stop working against cloak, then it will need to have the Bolt Escape treatment and have its cost increase on consequent uses. Or it's a near-100% guaranteed escape.

I think 2 really helpful changes would be to:
a) Increase the range of Radiant Magelight massively
b) Reduce the travel time of Revealing Flare to something near 0. A cloaking NB with Double Take + Concealed Weapon can move out of the area of the Flare without breaking a sweat. You'll never hit the NB, making the skill useless.

Rook_Master

If they nerf detect pots, they need to:

Dramatically increase the radius of Radiant MageLight and Flare.

I mean hugely, like 3-4x the area of Caltrops. Otherwise it is compltely game-breaking.

EdTerra

Rook_Master wrote: »

If they *fix* detect pots, they need to:

Dramatically increase the radius of Radiant MageLight and Flare.

I mean hugely, like 3-4x the area of Caltrops. Otherwise it is compltely game-breaking.

lol you need 3-4x this INSANE 34548962716354 meters radius from caltrops for detect a NB ? wtf, at this point it's a l2p issue for sure

Rook_Master

EdTerra wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

If they *fix* detect pots, they need to:

Dramatically increase the radius of Radiant MageLight and Flare.

I mean hugely, like 3-4x the area of Caltrops. Otherwise it is compltely game-breaking.

lol you need 3-4x this INSANE 34548962716354 meters radius from caltrops for detect a NB ? wtf, at this point it's a l2p issue for sure

If running Magelight 24/7 and spamming Flare constantly is how I need to "l2p" then count me out.

OdinForge

LOL

eliisra

Balancing cloak is probably one of the hardest things to do. Right now cloak is strong as hell, but turns into uselessness in one key stroke, when the enemy uses a potion.

Magicka NB v.s. Detection Potion. About as helpless + free AP as a magicka Templar without Mist Form. Die in a matter of seconds, rushed by the nearest group and splat.

Magicka NB v.s no Detection Potion. You're immortal, especially combined with shades and speed buffs.

(Excluding tank builds of course. I'm talking about builds that can actually kill stuff).

Anyway, it's inconsistent and annoying.

Also there's stamblades, the mainstream build. I'm pretty sure developers wants to please all the little Assassin's Creed and Legolas wannabes out there, because so many. But their survival is tied to max burst and dodging half the map, not cloak exclusively. So tough luck, if you wanted them to help you carry the torch all the way to ZoS HQ.

Also why the NB forum patrol aren't burning barricades, when Detection Potions are discussed. They dont want the get rekt by their minority magicka counterpart or feel forced to go magicka, yet they want to cloak a bit, so you get all these bipolar discussions.

Not envying devs here. What ever they decide to do, there will be a ***

RinaldoGandolphi

The tristat Detect Pots I run take "A good deal of time" to gather the materials to make them. I also sell them.

Each potion goes from 100-120 G a piece. So 100 of these pots is 10,000-12,000 gold. Its hardly "free" to counter cloak when a person cna go though 100 detect pots in a few hours...for someone who pvp's 8-10 hours a day it can cost 30,000 gold or more per day just in buying detect pots.

Name me one skill in the game that has such a considerable gold cost to counter? or you can 3-4 hours per day doing nothing but harvesting enough nodes to make them while competing with other players.

Please take this into consideration when talking about detect pots, they are a considerable investment of either time or money, sometimes both. just to counter a skill...seems like no one wants to address that Elephant in the room, all they see if a potion countering a skill when its far more then that....i wish it cost 10-12k gold to counter Bolt Escape...just saying to keep things in perspective.

Junipus

Isn't the underlying issue that the tri-stat detect pots have no GCD so everyone is using those over normal tri-stats?

Maybe when they fix the GCD issue people would use them less.

Only conjecture at this point though

Soulac

If I could see that I'm actually visible and not hidden.. That'd be great.
Everytime I use cloak thinking of being invisible and someone is simply charging or attacking me..

JDar

OP I disagree with your premise that cloak needs any fix at all. Are magicka nightblades really that much of a problem for players? My concealed weapon hardly ever hits for more than 7000 from Shadowy disguise and most of the time it is more like 3 to 4000.

I have no problem with detect pots. Without the initiative the rest of the fight I have to make zero mistakes to even stand a chance one on one against somebody with a medium or heavy armor build. Or I can cloak and hope it stays up for at least a second so I can cast it again and escape. Sypher and xinthisis make it look easy but it is not.

What people really have a problem with is cloak and mass hysteria being used by players using a weapon that heals them and can easily do twice the damage of my concealed weapon. That is absurd. The real problem is that weapon damage is far too easy to stack. Not the nightblade class abilities. We are supposed to be able to disappear, that's nightblade lore. It's our thing. Why does it need a counter ability?

ZoS please do not fix dark cloak or mass hysteria or detect pots, they are not broken.

ToRelax

Soulac wrote: »

If I could see that I'm actually visible and not hidden.. That'd be great.
Everytime I use cloak thinking of being invisible and someone is simply charging or attacking me..

That was also my experience when playing NB.
Almost feel sorry for the snipers trying to crouch away spamming Cloak. Almost.

Talcyndl

I've said it before, the problem with Cloak is that it combines (1) In-combat stealth (2) that is spamable without any cool down and (3) allows the player to re-enter combat at will.

I've never played an MMO that allows that combination in a stealth ability. The only reason it isn't even more borked is that (1) detect pots provide some useful counter in the open field and (2) larger scale battles have enough AoE flying around to bring the NB out of stealth.

Most_Awesome

Pots should never have broke Cloak in the first place, all I see here is QQ.
NB can finally use a skill as its intended just the same as Sorcs who can Bolt Escape, DK's who can flap their wings, and Templars can cast Jesus beam

Talcyndl

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Pots should never have broke Cloak in the first place, all I see here is QQ.
NB can finally use a skill as its intended just the same as Sorcs who can Bolt Escape, DK's who can flap their wings, and Templars can cast Jesus beam

None of those skills allow their class to completely control an engagement. Cloak lets a NB escape any fight at will, with the option of re-engaging whenever they wish (with a stealth attack bonus), and then being able to rinse and repeat.

Dudis

So leave detection pot in for those who don't want to invest in other counters (magelight, flare, caltrops etc... some of which need a boost btw!) but make it so only the person using the potion can see you.

Sounds fair?

They should also nerf the duration and add a visual effect imo but meh.

Aquanova

ZOS, leave *** alone. Don't listen to whining cry babies anymore. Just do what ever the *** you, in all of your infinite, unbiased wisdom and opinion think is right.remember, EVERYONE ON THESE FORUMS IS BIASED!

DDuke

Talcyndl wrote: »

Most_Awesome wrote: »

Pots should never have broke Cloak in the first place, all I see here is QQ.
NB can finally use a skill as its intended just the same as Sorcs who can Bolt Escape, DK's who can flap their wings, and Templars can cast Jesus beam

None of those skills allow their class to completely control an engagement. Cloak lets a NB escape any fight at will, with the option of re-engaging whenever they wish (with a stealth attack bonus), and then being able to rinse and repeat.

You clearly have not played a NB.

Cloak does not allow you to "escape any fight at will" or "completely control an engagement", that is made sure by charge attacks (breaks cloak), multiple incoming projectiles (4+ breaks cloak), AoE (best counter, if you know how to use it), Curse & Magicka Detonation and the good old detection potion...

Also, can you tell me how a sorcerer is not "completely controlling an engagement", given that he is able to blink away from danger in a heartbeat?

If only there was a potion that "silenced" the sorc and made his BoL/Streak fail upon casting /sarcasm

Aquanova

DON'T NERF ANYTHING!........DON'T BUFF ANYTHING!........ANYMORE.....PLZ:)

AhPook_Is_Here

When someone uses a detect pot there is quite an obvious tell any good NB should be able to read. Other than the potion effect on the hostile player, your stealth eye will never close completely and remain a sliver opened. At that point you can stop rolling and mashing cloak and turn and fight.

DDuke

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

When someone uses a detect pot there is quite an obvious tell any good NB should be able to read. Other than the potion effect on the hostile player, your stealth eye will never close completely and remain a sliver opened. At that point you can stop rolling and mashing cloak and turn and fight.

Turn and fight... right, where did I put my dmg shield -oh wait nevermind.

Ok, maybe I should hold block and spam heal- ah right, no heals apart from the 2-3k HPS from Vigor.

Well then, I'll just block & tank everything like these block bros. Woops, out of stamina & taking tons of damage since I'm not build towards tanking.

Last option: instagib opponent somehow, or just die quicker so I can respawn faster.


Doesn't really sound ideal to me.


Also, detection potion does not have any tell, apart from someone clearly hitting you while you're stealthed (no, the eye does not open until you get hit by the attacks).

AhPook_Is_Here

DDuke wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

When someone uses a detect pot there is quite an obvious tell any good NB should be able to read. Other than the potion effect on the hostile player, your stealth eye will never close completely and remain a sliver opened. At that point you can stop rolling and mashing cloak and turn and fight.

Turn and fight... right, where did I put my dmg shield -oh wait nevermind.

Ok, maybe I should hold block and spam heal- ah right, no heals apart from the 2-3k HPS from Vigor.

Well then, I'll just block & tank everything like these block bros. Woops, out of stamina & taking tons of damage since I'm not build towards tanking.

Last option: instagib opponent somehow, or just die quicker so I can respawn faster.


Doesn't really sound ideal to me.


Also, detection potion does not have any tell, apart from someone clearly hitting you while you're stealthed (no, the eye does not open until you get hit by the attacks).

It does, as soon as someone uses one your eye opens some if you are stealthed. If they aren't stealthed you will see a swirling effect around their legs when they pop it. Good NBs can stand and fight, and they do it all the time. You can find your damage shield in the undaunted line.

DDuke

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

When someone uses a detect pot there is quite an obvious tell any good NB should be able to read. Other than the potion effect on the hostile player, your stealth eye will never close completely and remain a sliver opened. At that point you can stop rolling and mashing cloak and turn and fight.

Turn and fight... right, where did I put my dmg shield -oh wait nevermind.

Ok, maybe I should hold block and spam heal- ah right, no heals apart from the 2-3k HPS from Vigor.

Well then, I'll just block & tank everything like these block bros. Woops, out of stamina & taking tons of damage since I'm not build towards tanking.

Last option: instagib opponent somehow, or just die quicker so I can respawn faster.


Doesn't really sound ideal to me.


Also, detection potion does not have any tell, apart from someone clearly hitting you while you're stealthed (no, the eye does not open until you get hit by the attacks).

It does, as soon as someone uses one your eye opens some if you are stealthed. If they aren't stealthed you will see a swirling effect around their legs when they pop it. Good NBs can stand and fight, and they do it all the time. You can find your damage shield in the undaunted line.

If you are sneaking you mean?

There is no indication you are being detected while cloaked.
Also, swirling effect comes from CC immunity potions as well.

As for your undaunted dmg shield... you do know it only works against physical damage, right?

Nor should every player be forced to use dmg shields, which is why we have skills like cloak for alternative ways of avoiding damage. That is good for build diversity in game as well.

If anything, this game needs more alternative ways of defending yourself and no magic potions that make these skills useless (or alternatively, they could make magic potions that make dmg shields, blocking, dodging & BoL/Streak useless, in order to balance it).

Ernest145

LMAO really bone shield!?!? just as crappy as blaze shield but only mitigates physical attacks.

Ernest145

Duke has a point with the potions for blocking, dodging, and damage shield.

Poxheart

Last week I had a really good 1v1 against a nightblade that ended in a draw because neither of us could get the upper hand. During the fight I used 3 detect pots, but he was able to gain enough separation so that he could cloak & reset the fight. This isn't the first time I've had fights like this, just the most recent. In my experience, detect pots are only a death sentence for bad nightblades; good nightblades know how to adapt.

Lava_Croft

Stamina Nightblades crying about the cost of Cloak should realize that if you want to be a real Nightblade, you have to be a Magicka Nightblade.

ScruffyWhiskers

If you get marked or you opponent is using a detect potion, going cloak every once in a while during the fight can still be a good idea because of the dark cloak dot removal and the shadow barrier armor/spell resist buff.

Sometimes you do have to turn and fight especially if it is just one guy chasing you. If it's a mob with pitchforks well you just have to hope for the best.

DDuke

Poxheart wrote: »

Last week I had a really good 1v1 against a nightblade that ended in a draw because neither of us could get the upper hand. During the fight I used 3 detect pots, but he was able to gain enough separation so that he could cloak & reset the fight. This isn't the first time I've had fights like this, just the most recent. In my experience, detect pots are only a death sentence for bad nightblades; good nightblades know how to adapt.

Good for you, throwing those veiled insults around.

Similarly, I could say that good nightblades know where to find other cloaked NBs (especially while using a detection potion), and know how to not let them "gain enough separation", while bad NBs are probably oblivious to these techniques and allow the other NB to reset the fight.

Go figure...

AhPook_Is_Here

DDuke wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

When someone uses a detect pot there is quite an obvious tell any good NB should be able to read. Other than the potion effect on the hostile player, your stealth eye will never close completely and remain a sliver opened. At that point you can stop rolling and mashing cloak and turn and fight.

Turn and fight... right, where did I put my dmg shield -oh wait nevermind.

Ok, maybe I should hold block and spam heal- ah right, no heals apart from the 2-3k HPS from Vigor.

Well then, I'll just block & tank everything like these block bros. Woops, out of stamina & taking tons of damage since I'm not build towards tanking.

Last option: instagib opponent somehow, or just die quicker so I can respawn faster.


Doesn't really sound ideal to me.


Also, detection potion does not have any tell, apart from someone clearly hitting you while you're stealthed (no, the eye does not open until you get hit by the attacks).

It does, as soon as someone uses one your eye opens some if you are stealthed. If they aren't stealthed you will see a swirling effect around their legs when they pop it. Good NBs can stand and fight, and they do it all the time. You can find your damage shield in the undaunted line.

If you are sneaking you mean?

There is no indication you are being detected while cloaked.
Also, swirling effect comes from CC immunity potions as well.

As for your undaunted dmg shield... you do know it only works against physical damage, right?

Nor should every player be forced to use dmg shields, which is why we have skills like cloak for alternative ways of avoiding damage. That is good for build diversity in game as well.

If anything, this game needs more alternative ways of defending yourself and no magic potions that make these skills useless (or alternatively, they could make magic potions that make dmg shields, blocking, dodging & BoL/Streak useless, in order to balance it).

There is also a magicka shield in the light armor line, absorb magicka, use both or take your pick? I don't know why you don't get an indication of detect pots being used in the area but when I am stealthed if some hostile in the raidius uses one my eye cracks to where I know there is someone looking.

Honestly, I don't think they should try and balance the game around one ganking build when there are already many useful NB builds that accomplish various goals. I'm a STA DK atm, in 1 v 1s I know I'm going to lose 90% of the time, it's a group utility build I run because it works for the group. You have your build, maybe you are set up for ganking singles and vanishing, and I get you being upset if you don't get a 1 shot and your target pops a detect and turns the table on you but can't you accept that as a cost of playing a build with no staying power who relies 100% on cloak if you don't instagib?